Forfeits

[The Purse]

Surely the league must be needing to stamp out the number of forfeits, seems to be increasing.

Another one for the weekend already with C/town U/18's pulling out.

Is there a fine system in place for a forfeit?

[Mug Punter]

Surely the league must be needing to stamp out the number of forfeits, seems to be increasing.

Another one for the weekend already with C/town U/18's pulling out.

Is there a fine system in place for a forfeit?

This is @@@@ing ridiculous but punishing the clubs surely isn't going the be the solution.

We clearly have a problem getting the U18s on the paddock. Why not return to the U19 under-age system? It worked for years and years before and might make it easier for clubs to field a side.

[The Purse]

Agreed, fining wouldnt solve it, but there has to be penalties for this, it causes not only there team to miss a game but a team they are playing, depending where the game is played, lost revenue from canteen sales, gate sales if the club charges.

Definately poor management by the clubs in question, but the league needs to take a stand, whether it is Under 19's who knows but forfeits they just hurt the game.

[Norris Lurker]

We haven't (touch wood) had any forfeits in any of the open age divisions, but it's been a problem in the Under 18s, particularly in the Challenge Cup. It was mentioned in another thread that Penrith's Under 18s have only got on the field to play one game so far this year, through no fault of their own.

But it's just not good enoough that it's happening. I don't know the logistics of whether this is feasible or a realistic option; but rather than advising of a forfeit, a team struggling for numbers should perhaps send out an SOS call to get permit players in for the weekend. I'm sure there are players at other clubs who aren't getting a game who would jump at the chance to go on loan for a weekend.

[The Purse]

SOS is a good idea, no points on offer for team fielding that team but a game gets played.

Has happened in challenge cup, but this is premier now

[Mug Punter]

Sydney is allegedly big enough to sustain two AFL teams (or three even if you listen to that peanut Sheedy) but a city of 5 million cannot put 200 underage players on the paddock each weekend.

Please discuss......

[Norris Lurker]

Let them play for points. The players you'll get from a last-minute SOS call won't be superstars, they will be the ones who weren't picked for their own clubs. But it's got to be better than forfeiting.

[tara]

Agreed, fining wouldnt solve it, but there has to be penalties for this, it causes not only there team to miss a game but a team they are playing, depending where the game is played, lost revenue from canteen sales, gate sales if the club charges.

Definately poor management by the clubs in question, but the league needs to take a stand, whether it is Under 19's who knows but forfeits they just hurt the game.

To make a statement as definately poor management suggests your knowledge is poor.

Whilst Im not a fan of Campbelltown if you know anything about the juniors in the area you would realise just how hard it is in our area to find kids, the under 16s competition is almost non existent.

[tara]

Let them play for points. The players you'll get from a last-minute SOS call won't be superstars, they will be the ones who weren't picked for their own clubs. But it's got to be better than forfeiting.

Really - we have fielded a team each week but on two occasions it could be argued as to what club we actually played.

[Pekay]

Sydney is allegedly big enough to sustain two AFL teams (or three even if you listen to that peanut Sheedy) but a city of 5 million cannot put 200 underage players on the paddock each weekend.

Please discuss......

Can see a lot of people saying " I told you so" when GWS doesn't deliver. Having said that, I will sign up for a membership. But two teams, not enough support, unless they (GWS) play out of Blacktown.

[The Purse]

To make a statement as definately poor management suggests your knowledge is poor.

Whilst Im not a fan of Campbelltown if you know anything about the juniors in the area you would realise just how hard it is in our area to find kids, the under 16s competition is almost non existent.

Know area , not intimately, but...... whilst it may be hard, is it good to have a team in comp forfeiting, no matter how hard it is if you dont think you will get numbers dont put a team in.

The league needs to work on this just as much as the clubs in question. It is poor management, if it was good there wouldnt be forfeits or very few of them, however they are increasing. It is poor management of any club who forfeits and the league who seemingly dont do too much to try help solve this particular problem.

[Hawknik]

Purse, are you in Club Management at your club? I would guess not by your comment.

Agree with Tara here, you can not necessarily blame the club, whilst they are involved and need to take some repsonibility, you need to look in the whole context - for such a large area, why are kids not wanting to play U18's???
It is easy, AFL heirarchy focus on Auskick, this stops at U18's, plain and simple, it is then entirely up to each Club (who all have no paid personell) to make sure AFL kids flow into senior footy. NSWAFL try, but they have no real focus as their KPI's with AFL HQ is on Auskick. Simple.

To sit on the sidelines and have a go at the Club, Purse, is a bit rich.

And yes, there are fines in Club Championship points which indirectly is cash at the end of the year.

[Ken Oath]

Young lads these days are too lazy to get off their arse and away from the tv.

[Hawknik]

;) KenOath to that

[beameup]

It is correct to an extent but we have some other major impacts that simply reflect where society has gone. Lots more irregular working hours which impact ontraining but also lots of retailers opening all day Saturday and Sunday. With pressures on finances at a family level teenagers want phones with data plans, cars, clothes and heaps of alcohol which all costs money and the work on offer clashes with sport.

So they make a choice to work

[The Purse]

Purse, are you in Club Management at your club? I would guess not by your comment.

Agree with Tara here, you can not necessarily blame the club, whilst they are involved and need to take some repsonibility, you need to look in the whole context - for such a large area, why are kids not wanting to play U18's???
It is easy, AFL heirarchy focus on Auskick, this stops at U18's, plain and simple, it is then entirely up to each Club (who all have no paid personell) to make sure AFL kids flow into senior footy. NSWAFL try, but they have no real focus as their KPI's with AFL HQ is on Auskick. Simple.

To sit on the sidelines and have a go at the Club, Purse, is a bit rich.

And yes, there are fines in Club Championship points which indirectly is cash at the end of the year.


Not on any board no....

That is not the point, my view is and it is a view only that it is a clubs responsibility to field a team each week and a onus needs to fall onto them, not only them the league as well for helping the clubs in this area.

In my view and everyone is entitled to one, Tara by all means has theres and is entitled to it, I think a club does have a responsibility and it is poor management to have to forfeit, and it is poor management from the league to allow it to keep happening.

That is my view some might agree with it and some might not, just sharing the point of view.

[Hawknik]

totally agree you are entitiled to it. My point is that each view should be balanced that's all. The club can only do so much though with the limitations that they have (eg self-funded, no employed persons). There has to be a desire within the community to move into seniors, which needs to be fostered by the AFL.

[The Purse]

which here I see is poor management by the Sydney AFL, who have paid staff.

[Ken Oath]

which here I see is poor management by the Sydney AFL, who have paid staff.

Not really. You can lead the donkey to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

I don't buy that work excuse. They're lazy. 12 - 18 year olds these days have too many options.
Running around and training in winter twice a week doesn't appeal to them. They've too much 'pressure' just existing in life. God forbid they spend more than 10 minutes away from myspace and facebook.

Glad I was brought up in the last millennium when we could think for ourselves.

[Mug Punter]

Not really. You can lead the donkey to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

I don't buy that work excuse. They're lazy. 12 - 18 year olds these days have too many options.
Running around and training in winter twice a week doesn't appeal to them. They've too much 'pressure' just existing in life. God forbid they spend more than 10 minutes away from myspace and facebook.

Glad I was brought up in the last millennium when we could think for ourselves.

Yes, the youth of today.:rolleyes:

What a joke to use that as an excuse. If we cannot get 200 kids in the U18 age group playing AFL each weekend then the game is fundamentally weak in this city. Once all the fake registrations fall away at auskick level we have a game that is very very shakey at the grassroots level.

Not sure what the solutuion is but I fail to see how it is the club's fault...

[Pace To Burn]

Know area , not intimately, but...... whilst it may be hard, is it good to have a team in comp forfeiting, no matter how hard it is if you dont think you will get numbers dont put a team in.The league needs to work on this just as much as the clubs in question. It is poor management, if it was good there wouldnt be forfeits or very few of them, however they are increasing. It is poor management of any club who forfeits and the league who seemingly dont do too much to try help solve this particular problem.

Youve really got no idea you muppet. You have obviously never been involved in running a club. We had 28 players at the start of the season for our 18s, we currently have about 10 long term injuries as well as 5 unavailable this weekend. That left us with only 13, you cant make kids play who are unfit or are away or have other commitments. We have rung close to a hundred kids off junior lists in the area from the last few seasons, sent letters out ,flyers to high schools from liverpool to wollondilly etc for no result. To say its from lack of good management just shows your lack of knowledge or dare i say intellegance

[JAYEFBE]

Yeah, lets fine the clubs :rolleyes: Then, instead of spending more of their unpaid hours trying to keep a side on the paddock, they can then spend their unpaid hours raising more money to keep the club afloat to pay fines to the AFL, who, should be paying development officers to create interest in AFL and in turn help the Clubs find players. How many Development Officers are in this city of 5 million people though?

[Hawknik]

Youve really got no idea you muppet. You have obviously never been involved in running a club. We had 28 players at the start of the season for our 18s, we currently have about 10 long term injuries as well as 5 unavailable this weekend. That left us with only 13, you cant make kids play who are unfit or are away or have other commitments. We have rung close to a hundred kids off junior lists in the area from the last few seasons, sent letters out ,flyers to high schools from liverpool to wollondilly etc for no result. To say its from lack of good management just shows your lack of knowledge or dare i say intellegance

and this sums up what I was trying t say to Purse earlier. PTB, being involved you know how much work people put into each club (esp U18's), but there has to be a market there, of which Clubs are not and should not be required to create.

[Mug Punter]

Yeah, lets fine the clubs :rolleyes: Then, instead of spending more of their unpaid hours trying to keep a side on the paddock, they can then spend their unpaid hours raising more money to keep the club afloat to pay fines to the AFL, who, should be paying development officers to create interest in AFL and in turn help the Clubs find players. How many Development Officers are in this city of 5 million people though?

I agree, let's punish the hardworking people who donate their time free of charge to keep this game afloat at the senior level in this state.

If the AFL are fair dinkum about REALLY developing this code in Sydney then every senior club would have at least a full-time manager appointed whose job it was to develop the pipeline and het an U18 on the paddock every week. The game is so vastly under-funded it's a joke.

I then see the AFL bigging up GWS and that goose in charge (Sheeds) mouthing off about third AFL teams , calling Roosy a sook etc and it makes me blood boil. What planet are they on?

[Coastal Boy]

[QUOTE=Mug Punter;485458]
If the AFL are fair dinkum about REALLY developing this code in Sydney then every senior club would have at least a full-time manager appointed whose job it was to develop the pipeline and het an U18 on the paddock every week.
QUOTE]

MP, we went through this during the 90s. Each SFL club was given a grant to hire a full time manager. But as the story goes, many (or most) clubs used to money to pay for a marquee-type player under the guise of a manager. Naturally it was abandoned when clubs did not use it for the purpose it was intended and thus failed to turn it into a self-funding position. Maybe ECE was the only club able to keep it going and no surprise of the success of the club since.....others can comment on the validity of this statement.

[sam]

Bring back under 19.

[beameup]

Not as simple as that. The gooduns have gone into first grade and the 16yo get imtimidated playing against men at 18-19. The AFL needs to get serious about getting recruits. Targetting boys dropping out of soccer because they have grown out of it and leaguies becuse of size differences actually works but there never seems to be an actual campaign to do it.

[Doormat]

Or maybe beameup stop premier division clubs taking kids (U'16's comp) & pumping there egos up with money & promises & then not delivering or more importantly developing them as footballers.
This is the real problem. Would love to know how many 17y old drop out from 18's comp that dont go on and play the club that recruited them or who go back to the original club & play ?????
I know of one junior club in the Hills where the coach has outlined no U'16's are to play up in challenge cup or premier as the premier club only burns & churns the players.



Not as simple as that. The gooduns have gone into first grade and the 16yo get imtimidated playing against men at 18-19. The AFL needs to get serious about getting recruits. Targetting boys dropping out of soccer because they have grown out of it and leaguies becuse of size differences actually works but there never seems to be an actual campaign to do it.

[beameup]

Or maybe beameup stop premier division clubs taking kids (U'16's comp) & pumping there egos up with money & promises & then not delivering or more importantly developing them as footballers.
This is the real problem. Would love to know how many 17y old drop out from 18's comp that dont go on and play the club that recruited them or who go back to the original club & play ?????
I know of one junior club in the Hills where the coach has outlined no U'16's are to play up in challenge cup or premier as the premier club only burns & churns the players.

That maybe a fair comment in some instances but at the same time there is a role for boys playing U18s whilst still an under 16. Blanket prohibitions do not work for the top 20% of players who need to be challenged to continue to grow. Selective playing between the 2 age groups makes for a better player the same way as playing an U18 in first grade. Very few play every game as dropping them back for a few games often builds confidence and lets them regroup physically and mentally.

I also believe there is a role for parents in this. They need to be involved and ensure to themselves that their son is being dealt with fairly by the club. Talk to the coach and the President or committee. If the son is being misused pull him out, consider going elsewhere instead as seeing it as an opportunity to offload him for a few hours. These boys are only 15 and 16 years old and do not understand that they need to be managed and protected.

There are examples in Sydney where it is done very well. If your local club doesn't then move on.

[ShortHalfHead]

Surprised that Mac Uni have forfeited again in the Challenge Cup to Penrith. Especially as no 16's games this weekend where they could have played up.
I guess that the Mac Uni/Penno "alliance" isn't working that flash.

[unconfuseme]

Not an easy weekend for 18's ... a lot of them are on school hols, as are the 16's who might potentially fill in!

[mountainsofpain]

Wollongong appears to have forfeited its Ressies (Div 1) this weekend. Not good. :eek:

[Prince]

Correct... Gong had 13 players and could not get enough South Coast FL match day permits to ensure full team.

[ShortHalfHead]

Quote of the Week:

We are better off forfeiting against you, it will be better for our percentages"

-Anon

[ShortHalfHead]

..

[nugget]

Quote of the Week:

We are better off forfeiting against you, it will be better for our percentages"

-Anon

Can't believe you had another forfeit again.

And it didn't help them anyway as they are on the bottom anyway after forfeiting. If I'm reading your post correctly.

[DLH]

Can't believe you had another forfeit again.

And it didn't help them anyway as they are on the bottom anyway after forfeiting. If I'm reading your post correctly.

Yep, this competition is beyond a joke quite frankly, in the last year and two-thirds our U/18's have been forfeited against seven times.

Apparently the MU boys are going to win 8 of their last 4 and hope other results go their way.......

[Hawknik]

Apparently the MU boys are going to win 8 of their last 4 and hope other results go their way.......

????:confused:

[tara]

????:confused:

Someone at your end told someone at Penrith that them forfieting was better as their percetage wouldnt be smashed as much as them playing - must admit will be interested to see who we play when our kids meet yours in a few weeks given exactly 50% of your team was PD kids with Penno.

[Mug Punter]

Someone at your end told someone at Penrith that them forfieting was better as their percetage wouldnt be smashed as much as them playing - must admit will be interested to see who we play when our kids meet yours in a few weeks given exactly 50% of your team was PD kids with Penno.

For all Mac Uni's Pres coming on here earlier in the season blowing his own trumpet, this whole pathway development caper seems to have been a complete failure from their point of view. They'd be a lot better standing and possibly falling on their own two feet than relying on Penno to help them out. It's the same old story, lots of hot air and good intentions but at the end of the day these local JVs or alliances just do not work.

The state of U18 football is a terrible indictment on the game's position in Sydney. Don't know what the solution is but this bureaucratic model that creates huge work just so a handful of kids can't better themselves by going to one of the few clubs that have a decent program in place is pure craziness. My mail is that it is illegal anyway and I believe that Sydney Uni are keeping a legal challenge up their sleeve should commonsense not prevail.

[DLH]

Don't know what the solution is but this bureaucratic model that creates huge work just so a handful of kids can't better themselves by going to one of the few clubs that have a decent program in place is pure craziness. My mail is that it is illegal anyway and I believe that Sydney Uni are keeping a legal challenge up their sleeve should commonsense not prevail.

Sydney Uni are on top of Premier Division, have teams in every grade plus plenty of others who probably can't even get a game.

Clearly given their facilities, resources and old boys networks they don't have any problem attracting high quality footballers to their club, yet you're suggesting they'd be happy to take legal action in order to be able to poach the best juniors from clubs such as mine who due to geography have basically no ready made players walk through its doors and can't really hope to attract them?

I know this will continue to go around in circles but I just find that ridiculous.

[Pekay]

Sydney Uni are on top of Premier Division, have teams in every grade plus plenty of others who probably can't even get a game.

Clearly given their facilities, resources and old boys networks they don't have any problem attracting high quality footballers to their club, yet you're suggesting they'd be happy to take legal action in order to be able to poach the best juniors from clubs such as mine who due to geography have basically no ready made players walk through its doors and can't really hope to attract them?

I know this will continue to go around in circles but I just find that ridiculous.

You either side with Collingwood or feel their thumb go clean up your khyber pass. Thats how it is in the big league!

[Roscoe]

Mug Punter

You saying that the Joint Venture allainces (JV) do not work is just rubbish

It will not always be perfect but the Penno/Mac Uni model has been adopted by Saints in their

JV with Southern Power and Moorebank. It has worked well during the course of the season for the 3

clubs involved. Over the past 3 weeks Saints 18's have had players playing in the seniors and also

with injuries and School holidays have been unable to help out their CC associates, but hopefully

over the remainder of the season any saints 18's who aren't chosen for St George will get a game

for Power and Moorebank if the numbers are there

[Mug Punter]

Sydney Uni are on top of Premier Division, have teams in every grade plus plenty of others who probably can't even get a game.

Clearly given their facilities, resources and old boys networks they don't have any problem attracting high quality footballers to their club, yet you're suggesting they'd be happy to take legal action in order to be able to poach the best juniors from clubs such as mine who due to geography have basically no ready made players walk through its doors and can't really hope to attract them?

I know this will continue to go around in circles but I just find that ridiculous.

What I find ridiculous is that 16 year old kids are told which senior clubs they can and cannot play for. Unless they were a student at Syndey Uni I couldn't see a Penrith kid going and playing at Sydney Uni anyway.

Still, IF a kid did want to go there because they have a couple of the best junior coaches in the state (Barling and Carter) and a professional set up backed by Australia's biggest club (Collingwood) then I say why not let him go there. Why force him to stay out at a club like Balmain that run their club like a three ring circus and fold their U18 program mid-season?

Instead we butcher the most progressive U18 set up in the state which potentially stifles player development. Other clubs should concentrate on getting their own houses in order (as you clearly are out there) rather than stifling the ambition of other clubs.

[Mug Punter]

Mug Punter

You saying that the Joint Venture allainces (JV) do not work is just rubbish

It will not always be perfect but the Penno/Mac Uni model has been adopted by Saints in their

JV with Southern Power and Moorebank. It has worked well during the course of the season for the 3

clubs involved. Over the past 3 weeks Saints 18's have had players playing in the seniors and also

with injuries and School holidays have been unable to help out their CC associates, but hopefully

over the remainder of the season any saints 18's who aren't chosen for St George will get a game

for Power and Moorebank if the numbers are there

It may well be working for you but it sure aint working for the Kookas.

It certainly is a system that clearly favours the SFL club over the SFA club, it's a very patronising set up in terms of how you view Moorebank and Sutherland, surely they shouldn't have to rely on handouts fom you to get a side on the field every week. Yours seems to working well from the sound of it in the short term but I don't think it is any co-incidence that the best club in the U18 second Div is a stand alone club.

Question for you. Moorebank have a young kid who is absolutely braining it but just wants to play with his mates out there. What do you do? You put him on yor list and get him to play with Saints or you get in his ear and poach him. How can that be in the interests of your junior partners. Why don't you just bite the bullet and put two U18s teams on he paddock like ECE?

[tara]

Shaun Wicken played one year of 18s at both clubs his last at moorebank then played every game of seniors at saints last year then decided to come back to us this year I think that should answer your question mp

[mountainsofpain]

The state of U18 football is a terrible indictment on the game's position in Sydney. Don't know what the solution is but this bureaucratic model that creates huge work just so a handful of kids can't better themselves by going to one of the few clubs that have a decent program in place is pure craziness. My mail is that it is illegal anyway and I believe that Sydney Uni are keeping a legal challenge up their sleeve should commonsense not prevail.
You'd hope they wouldn't go down that path, but it wouldn't surprise in the slightest if they did given the club involved.

I don't know what the perfect system is, but one where a strong club can simply leech the best young playing talent from other parts of the city (in particular those areas which are still trying to grow the game) is highly undesirable.

I don't know what your club allegience is - it could be Sydney Uni as far as I know. But if it isn't - I presume you wouldn't have a problem from what you have written if anywhere up to half a dozen or so of your best junior players wandered off to Sydney Uni each year rather than play for your club?

[ShortHalfHead]

As has been stated many times, there was no problem with Collingwood assembling their scholarship players in one team. Our concerns were that it was all done all secretly with indications given to the non-scholarship boys that there were scholarships available if they joined up as well as the other inducements (UAI points etc). No scholarships were handed out as far as I am aware. They weren't the only club making promises to starry eyed kids. The pathway programme has had some issues, but generally I think has been successful in maintaining some fairness in the even distribution of players

[unconfuseme]

Interesting that Sydney Uni are dangling all the carrots to field 18's.

Yet Saints on the other hand, I understand offer nothing - no money, no scholarships, no UAI points, no "best junior coach in the universe" (sorry Bear!) - they do not even guarantee any kid a game, yet still they come???

Maybe C'town and some others should look into what works for them.

The young kid who just wants to play with his mates does not seem to be discouraged, and still does that with Power or Magpies.

So far as the best club in CC being a "stand alone", that will change from year to year, that is the nature of 18's, if Penriths 14-16 y.o stocks are not so hot, they will struggle in a year or 2

Also interesting, notice Southern Power looks set to the 2nd best CC team yet again (3rd year in a row?)! ... here's hoping that if it happens, they are coached to cope with it with some dignity for a change!

[tara]

Interesting that Sydney Uni are dangling all the carrots to field 18's.

Yet Saints on the other hand, I understand offer nothing - no money, no scholarships, no UAI points, no "best junior coach in the universe" (sorry Bear!) - they do not even guarantee any kid a game, yet still they come???

Maybe C'town and some others should look into what works for them.

The young kid who just wants to play with his mates does not seem to be discouraged, and still does that with Power or Magpies.

So far as the best club in CC being a "stand alone", that will change from year to year, that is the nature of 18's, if Penriths 14-16 y.o stocks are not so hot, they will struggle in a year or 2

Also interesting, notice Southern Power looks set to the 2nd best CC team yet again (3rd year in a row?)! ... here's hoping that if it happens, they are coached to cope with it with some dignity for a change!

My dealings with St George have shown that they will not stand in the way of any player who wants to transfer to us and generally any clearances have gone through immediately and I havnt found them ringing my players trying to convince them to cross over mid season - at least this year I have no doubt how phone numbers have been obtained, will be interesting at the end of the year though to see if the rumours of coaching and player moves out in the general west eventuate.

[snow leopard]

Rumour has it that MU18's have this week forfeited the bye!!!!!!!

[The Student]

Unfortunately Uni don't have a junior competition to feed their senior club. As you said, do what works for you. Things seem to be working for us at the moment...


Interesting that Sydney Uni are dangling all the carrots to field 18's.

Yet Saints on the other hand, I understand offer nothing - no money, no scholarships, no UAI points, no "best junior coach in the universe" (sorry Bear!) - they do not even guarantee any kid a game, yet still they come???

Maybe C'town and some others should look into what works for them.

The young kid who just wants to play with his mates does not seem to be discouraged, and still does that with Power or Magpies.

So far as the best club in CC being a "stand alone", that will change from year to year, that is the nature of 18's, if Penriths 14-16 y.o stocks are not so hot, they will struggle in a year or 2

Also interesting, notice Southern Power looks set to the 2nd best CC team yet again (3rd year in a row?)! ... here's hoping that if it happens, they are coached to cope with it with some dignity for a change!

[mountainsofpain]

Unfortunately Uni don't have a junior competition to feed their senior club. As you said, do what works for you. Things seem to be working for us at the moment...
Maybe they should actually put a bit of work in at ground level and form a local junior club or two?

[unconfuseme]

heard on the grapevine that C'town DID NOT forfeit 18's today! ... had seven players all ready to go, but ground manager called it off due to state of the pitch:rolleyes:

[ShortHalfHead]

Was quite a surprise that they canned games at Monarch as it has the reputation of one of the best wet weather grounds in Sydney. Up the road at Rosedale, three games were played on a cricket field and it was in good shape.

[Mug Punter]

Maybe they should actually put a bit of work in at ground level and form a local junior club or two?


Thing is 17 and 18 year old kids aren't a pice of property that should be told where and when they can play footy, especially when they are paying for the privilege.

The Unis do an immense amount of work developing the code on campus, the stark reality is that without the University teams' involvement in the code in Sydney we would have an absolute shambles of a competition. This is an undeniable FACT whether you like it or not. To say they should also be creating additional junior teams when clubs like Campbelltown, with all their sides out there, can't put a team on the paddock, and then blame the Sydney Uni for it is too riduclous for words.

[Mug Punter]

As has been stated many times, there was no problem with Collingwood assembling their scholarship players in one team. Our concerns were that it was all done all secretly with indications given to the non-scholarship boys that there were scholarships available if they joined up as well as the other inducements (UAI points etc). No scholarships were handed out as far as I am aware. They weren't the only club making promises to starry eyed kids. The pathway programme has had some issues, but generally I think has been successful in maintaining some fairness in the even distribution of players

Can anyone explain to me how Sydney Uni AFC can adjust the UAI score the the Department of Education give to year 12 students? I had no idea that the club had so much pull....

[Mug Punter]

Rumour has it that MU18's have this week forfeited the bye!!!!!!!

Their Pres has been mighty quiet on here recently.

Must be busy trying to finally get that Sportsman's lunch with Goodesy and Micky O organised ;)

[ShortHalfHead]

Thing is 17 and 18 year old kids aren't a pice of property that should be told where and when they can play footy, especially when they are paying for the privilege.

The Unis do an immense amount of work developing the code on campus, the stark reality is that without the University teams' involvement in the code in Sydney we would have an absolute shambles of a competition. This is an undeniable FACT whether you like it or not. To say they should also be creating additional junior teams when clubs like Campbelltown, with all their sides out there, can't put a team on the paddock, and then blame the Sydney Uni for it is too riduclous for words.

Of the eight players targetted from Penrith, it was surprising to find that all were above ability on the footy field. Was that a coincidence? Why didn't they advertise to all and sundry and target the skinny, brainy nerds who might have shone with academic abilty. Of course they just wanted to give kids an opportunity to play football...but only interested in the good 'uns.

I have it on very good authority that exemptions can me made when students are a few UAI points short that "concessions" can be made. My God-Daughter is doing a vets couse and she was short, but an interview got her there when they realised her love for it :)

[Mug Punter]

Of the eight players targetted from Penrith, it was surprising to find that all were above ability on the footy field. Was that a coincidence? Why didn't they advertise to all and sundry and target the skinny, brainy nerds who might have shone with academic abilty. Of course they just wanted to give kids an opportunity to play football...but only interested in the good 'uns.

I have it on very good authority that exemptions can me made when students are a few UAI points short that "concessions" can be made. My God-Daughter is doing a vets couse and she was short, but an interview got her there when they realised her love for it :)

Well since they were sporting scholarships I don't think it unreasonable for the Uni to target the better players do you? That is why they are S_P_O_R_T_I_N_G scholarships not A_C_A_D_E_M_I_C scholarships, which by the way are also offered.

As long as the player is enrolled at Sydney Uni as a student I fail to see what the issue is. If Sydney Uni are prevented from playing a player who is a student at their university because of this idiotic, bureaucratic over-reaction then they have every right to take whatever steps it takes to get it removed IMO.

[ShortHalfHead]

Well since they were sporting scholarships I don't think it unreasonable for the Uni to target the better players do you? That is why they are S_P_O_R_T_I_N_G scholarships not A_C_A_D_E_M_I_C scholarships, which by the way are also offered.

As long as the player is enrolled at Sydney Uni as a student I fail to see what the issue is. If Sydney Uni are prevented from playing a player who is a student at their university because of this idiotic, bureaucratic over-reaction then they have every right to take whatever steps it takes to get it removed IMO.

Mug, They were not offering scholarships, they were inducing them with a possibilty of a scholarship (mainly a Collingwood one). I believe that none eventuated, though one lad lost his.

As a side note, how many players are enrolled at Sydney Uni. No issues with that one. Just wasn't aware of any

[mountainsofpain]

Thing is 17 and 18 year old kids aren't a pice of property that should be told where and when they can play footy, especially when they are paying for the privilege.

The Unis do an immense amount of work developing the code on campus, the stark reality is that without the University teams' involvement in the code in Sydney we would have an absolute shambles of a competition. This is an undeniable FACT whether you like it or not. To say they should also be creating additional junior teams when clubs like Campbelltown, with all their sides out there, can't put a team on the paddock, and then blame the Sydney Uni for it is too riduclous for words.
Whatever you consider contribution the Unis make to Sydney football is completely beside the point.

I made a suggestion that they consider forming local clubs. What's wrong with that exactly? It may not be practical from a demographics point of view, I don't know - but it was only a suggestion.

You are basically saying that Sydney Uni is too bone lazy to even try to develop youth - so instead they just go and raid players from other areas.

I mean, it's hardly the case (with five senior sides) that they are struggling for numbers, is it? They are an extremely strong club already and are trying to make themselves even stronger on the back of the work of junior clubs from miles away. The whole exercise reeks of greed and arrogance, nothing else.

I hardly consider their way of putting an Under 18s side together to be making a contribution to the well-being of Sydney footy at all. It's the exact opposite in fact.

If you want to support it, good for you. I'm more interested in the welfare of Sydney football overall, especially in the still developing areas, which the behaviour of Sydney Uni directly conflicts with.

[mountainsofpain]

Of the eight players targetted from Penrith, it was surprising to find that all were above ability on the footy field. Was that a coincidence? Why didn't they advertise to all and sundry and target the skinny, brainy nerds who might have shone with academic abilty. Of course they just wanted to give kids an opportunity to play football...but only interested in the good 'uns.

Eight players were targetted from Penrith?

Wow, that would have really helped the game out there if they had all gone, losing nearly half a side in one hit.

I wonder what would have happened if they had all gone and Penrith had then struggled for numbers? Clearly Sydney Uni didn't give a crap.

[snow leopard]

Whatever you consider contribution the Unis make to Sydney football is completely beside the point.

I made a suggestion that they consider forming local clubs. What's wrong with that exactly? It may not be practical from a demographics point of view, I don't know - but it was only a suggestion.

You are basically saying that Sydney Uni is too bone lazy to even try to develop youth - so instead they just go and raid players from other areas.

I mean, it's hardly the case (with five senior sides) that they are struggling for numbers, is it? They are an extremely strong club already and are trying to make themselves even stronger on the back of the work of junior clubs from miles away. The whole exercise reeks of greed and arrogance, nothing else.

I hardly consider their way of putting an Under 18s side together to be making a contribution to the well-being of Sydney footy at all. It's the exact opposite in fact.

If you want to support it, good for you. I'm more interested in the welfare of Sydney football overall, especially in the still developing areas, which the behaviour of Sydney Uni directly conflicts with.

Then again the senior sydney clubs do stuff all in help with there junior pathway way clubs eihter. All they are intested in is getting bulk numbers for their 18's some that come to mind are St George 40+ Penno 45+ North Shore 40+. Some of these boys are paying $200 or more and have played 3, 4 or 5 games this year, great value for money i wonder how many will give the game away??. One would have thought 30 would be enough and then send the balance to other clubs instead of being greedy.

[mountainsofpain]

No, that's not good either if clubs are doing that. But I gather St George seem to be doing the right thing from what I've read here.

Putting two sides in is great if possible (which the Eagles are doing for instance), but that would probably need around 60 odd players.

Not sure about Penno/North Shore.

[J_Moore]

I have it on very good authority that exemptions can me made when students are a few UAI points short that "concessions" can be made. My God-Daughter is doing a vets couse and she was short, but an interview got her there when they realised her love for it :)

There's a special entry scheme for elite athletes that Sydney Uni runs. If a kid' has been playing a sport at a very high level (state or national, generally), and can show that this might have affected their HSC, then they might be offered entry to a course that they just missed out on. It depends on the course, though, and is usually up to the individual faculties. So not many get handed out.

The idea that the aussie rules club is able to leverage academic concessions for a whole lot of decent 17 year olds from suburban footy clubs is ridiculous.

[ShortHalfHead]

.
The idea that the aussie rules club is able to leverage academic concessions for a whole lot of decent 17 year olds from suburban footy clubs is ridiculous.

It probably is a ridiculous idea. Maybe they should have told the recruiters not to use it. But it is all history now and the pathway programme was put into place to combat it.

[Steamboat]

heard on the grapevine that C'town DID NOT forfeit 18's today! ... had seven players all ready to go, but ground manager called it off due to state of the pitch:rolleyes:

Unconfuseme,you confue everyone,possibly because of your grapevine.

C Town actually had 20 players available,and with exception of 2 late arrivals,all were ready to play.

With seniors out of the running,all 4 u18s that have played 1st grade are now dropping back to help out the 18s,for those sceptics,there was about 6inches of surface water on the ground,and whilst ground manager had some say,umpires deemed surface dangerous.

[ShortHalfHead]

Unconfuseme,you confue everyone,possibly because of your grapevine.

C Town actually had 20 players available,and with exception of 2 late arrivals,all were ready to play.

With seniors out of the running,all 4 u18s that have played 1st grade are now dropping back to help out the 18s,for those sceptics,there was about 6inches of surface water on the ground,and whilst ground manager had some say,umpires deemed surface dangerous.

If the 7 18's that played in Premier Div on Saturday had played in the 18's, would seniors have forfeited or would they have backed up?

A good win by the Blues regardless

[Bert]

You would have to think their Div 3 team would of forfeited, considering they haven't had a full bench for most of the year.

[beameup]

Then again the senior sydney clubs do stuff all in help with there junior pathway way clubs eihter. All they are intested in is getting bulk numbers for their 18's some that come to mind are St George 40+ Penno 45+ North Shore 40+. Some of these boys are paying $200 or more and have played 3, 4 or 5 games this year, great value for money i wonder how many will give the game away??. One would have thought 30 would be enough and then send the balance to other clubs instead of being greedy.

St George were unsuccessful in entering a second team as Power and Moorebank were short of players and SFL said it might suck more away from them. Bottom line is that boys see themsdelves playing at a higer level therefore whilst happy to play for local club as a junior they want to go to a club that has a path to the top. I am not criticising anyone but if you feel you might have a bit of talent or whatever seriously why would they go to a club that tops out in second division when you could play Premier within 12-18 months. Sorry but it is a fact of life.

[Mug Punter]

It probably is a ridiculous idea. Maybe they should have told the recruiters not to use it. But it is all history now and the pathway programme was put into place to combat it.

So, let's get this straight. the NSWAFL have put into place a completely over the top ineffective plan that takes mountains of administration to "combat" a program that didn't exist in the first place.

Completely and utterly insane.....

[Shotties]

You'll have to Pardon my ignorance, but which senior clubs in the league founded which junior clubs? Further to that, which SU 18s were given money or extra UAI points? I'd been labouring under the impression that a person's UAI was the domain of the UAC.

Edit: I see it's already been answered.

[Mug Punter]

You'll have to Pardon my ignorance, but which senior clubs in the league founded which junior clubs? Further to that, which SU 18s were given money or extra UAI points? I'd been labouring under the impression that a person's UAI was the domain of the UAC.

Exactly! Finally a sensible post on this topic.

It's hearsay and conjecture at best, slander at worst, and a completely OTT reaction to a professional program implemented by the most professional and progressive club in Sydney.

[DLH]

will be interesting at the end of the year though to see if the rumours of coaching and player moves out in the general west eventuate.

Anything you'd like to expand upon? ;)

[tara]

Anything you'd like to expand upon? ;)

No but if if eventuates I let you know - must admit though it would be a bold move.

[DLH]

No but if if eventuates I let you know - must admit though it would be a bold move.

No worries, sounds interesting.......

Nice win on the weekend too, congrats.

Hopefully we can still make the finals from here, pretty congested at the top end though.

[Shotties]

Exactly! Finally a sensible post on this topic.

It's hearsay and conjecture at best, slander at worst, and a completely OTT reaction to a professional program implemented by the most professional and progressive club in Sydney.

I'm not going to get into a circle jerk here, but the fact that people have been pushing the "SU give out extra UAI points" line for over a year indicates that people are probably on the end of a long line of Chinese whispers. I would be extremely doubtful that someone from Sydney Uni has ever said that the club would be able to give out UAI points but it's an argument that's been repeated ad nauseam on here.

[beameup]

I'm not going to get into a circle jerk here, but the fact that people have been pushing the "SU give out extra UAI points" line for over a year indicates that people are probably on the end of a long line of Chinese whispers. I would be extremely doubtful that someone from Sydney Uni has ever said that the club would be able to give out UAI points but it's an argument that's been repeated ad nauseam on here.

It is actually quite feasible that bonus points are given to sporting students. Universities give bonus points for a range of matters such as being a regional student or coming from an underpriviledged area or overseas and elite sports people could well enjoy benefits. I am not saying they do but it is very feasible. I can tell you for an absolute fact that students who are offerred scholarships by private sector do get in with a lower ATAR (UAI) than the cutoff figure. Syd Uni does also use the prospect of scholarships in the future when talking to U18s.

[Shotties]

It is actually quite feasible that bonus points are given to sporting students. Universities give bonus points for a range of matters such as being a regional student or coming from an underpriviledged area or overseas and elite sports people could well enjoy benefits. I am not saying they do but it is very feasible.
Feasible? Universities cannot give out bonus ATAR / UAI points. That has to be done with the UAC an as J_Moore said above suburban football clubs don't generally hold a lot of sway there.

[ShortHalfHead]

The Elite Athletes and Performers Scheme is for applicants who are able to demonstrate that they are elite athletes or performers, and have had training, competitive and/or practice commitments which have significantly affected their results.

An applicant who is approved under this scheme may be admitted into their course of choice with results which are below, but close to, the normal entry standard for that course. Applicants cannot gain admission into their course of choice with results that are well below the course entry standard.

For a Year 12 applicant, approval under this scheme may mean that the applicant can gain admission into a course with an ATAR of up to five points below the regular cut-off. The concession may be somewhat less than five points for competitive courses, and certain courses do not offer any concession under this scheme.

This scheme is available for domestic applicants seeking admission into most undergraduate courses which are offered through the Universities Admissions Centre (UAC).

[Shotties]

The Elite Athletes and Performers Scheme is for applicants who are able to demonstrate that they are elite athletes or performers, and have had training, competitive and/or practice commitments which have significantly affected their results.

An applicant who is approved under this scheme may be admitted into their course of choice with results which are below, but close to, the normal entry standard for that course. Applicants cannot gain admission into their course of choice with results that are well below the course entry standard.

For a Year 12 applicant, approval under this scheme may mean that the applicant can gain admission into a course with an ATAR of up to five points below the regular cut-off. The concession may be somewhat less than five points for competitive courses, and certain courses do not offer any concession under this scheme.

This scheme is available for domestic applicants seeking admission into most undergraduate courses which are offered through the Universities Admissions Centre (UAC).

My reading isn't great, but it seems to me that you've reiterated what J_Moore said, wherein someone who can show that their HSC disrupted can gain admission into a course when they fall just below the cut off. This ISN'T the same as awarding points to players just for playing for SU u18s. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say Chinese whispers. You've had a glance at a system that allows people with a disrupted HSC to MAYBE get into a course a max of 5 ATAR points above their score and extrapolated from that that SU are "giving out" ATAR points.

[Norris Lurker]

I'd be surprised if people playing our game in Sydney would get a look in under that scheme - I'm guessing our league wouldn't be elite enough. I would have thought that scheme would be a way of giving special consideration to someone who missed plenty of school in year 12 because they were overseas to compete in the Olympics or an international competition.
I could be wrong, I have no idea and I'm guessing - but I'd be surprised if homework time missed because you were travelling 90 minutes each way on public transport to get from the outer suburbs to Sydney Uni after school for training twice a week with a Sydney AFL club would qualify.

There may well be benefits to an aspiring youngster's football development to travel from the outer suburbs to Sydney Uni. But getting a concession on HSC scoring would be unlikely to be one of them.

[tara]

I'd be surprised if people playing our game in Sydney would get a look in under that scheme - I'm guessing our league wouldn't be elite enough. I would have thought that scheme would be a way of giving special consideration to someone who missed plenty of school in year 12 because they were overseas to compete in the Olympics or an international competition.
I could be wrong, I have no idea and I'm guessing - but I'd be surprised if homework time missed because you were travelling 90 minutes each way on public transport to get from the outer suburbs to Sydney Uni after school for training twice a week with a Sydney AFL club would qualify.

There may well be benefits to an aspiring youngster's football development to travel from the outer suburbs to Sydney Uni. But getting a concession on HSC scoring would be unlikely to be one of them.

Actually Norris you may be surprised - are very good friend of mines daughter is a Sydney Uni graduate and was a scholarship holder during her four years in a sport that is not huge in Australia and most certainly not one generally associated with women.

To be honest I dont care about Sydney Uni offering incentives to play but it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.

[Pekay]

Actually Norris you may be surprised - are very good friend of mines daughter is a Sydney Uni graduate and was a scholarship holder during her four years in a sport that is not huge in Australia and most certainly not one generally associated with women.

To be honest I dont care about Sydney Uni offering incentives to play but it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.

Hahaha way to tip toe around the word dyke.

[tara]

Hahaha way to tip toe around the word dyke.

She represents Australia and yes there are a lot in her team however she is engaged to a mate of mine who is a fitness trainer who my boys wish they had never met earlier this year.

[Pekay]

She represents Australia and yes there are a lot in her team however she is engaged to a mate of mine who is a fitness trainer who my boys wish they had never met earlier this year.

Brush=tarred.

[Hawknik]

The Elite Athletes and Performers Scheme is for applicants who are able to demonstrate that they are elite athletes or performers, and have had training, competitive and/or practice commitments which have significantly affected their results.

An applicant who is approved under this scheme may be admitted into their course of choice with results which are below, but close to, the normal entry standard for that course. Applicants cannot gain admission into their course of choice with results that are well below the course entry standard.

For a Year 12 applicant, approval under this scheme may mean that the applicant can gain admission into a course with an ATAR of up to five points below the regular cut-off. The concession may be somewhat less than five points for competitive courses, and certain courses do not offer any concession under this scheme.

This scheme is available for domestic applicants seeking admission into most undergraduate courses which are offered through the Universities Admissions Centre (UAC).

ShortHalfHead - spot on, these types of scholarships ARE available at universities, it requires the athlete to illustrate sporting achievement/level, seek approval from the university and meeting certain standards. Obviously your average park footballer may not meet the requirements, but a young player of high calibre and potential in Sydney, who is aligned to Collingwood would be able to argue the point I believe.

Macquarie University does have this in it's education facility, however, no Mac Uni AFL player has utilised this as yet. Who knows what the future holds, but one of the pre requisites in Mac Uni is State or National representation, and they focus heavily on the upper elite (ie Olympic or National representatives) which puts it just slightly out of our reach ;)

*whether these scholarships become reality within SUAFL Club is an entirely different point, however, the process would be there I would imagine

I am more than confident Sydney University (the tertiary itself) would have this facility available, it makes perfect sense when universities are striving for elite athletes to be representing them at Uni games etc.

[ShortHalfHead]

Brush=tarred.

I have never said if it was actually available to every man and his dog. I do know as a fact it was mentioned to the parents at the "development squad" that Uni had prior to their announcing that they intended to field a team in 2009. I spoke to three parents, all of whom are super reliable. One didn't even know what UAI meant, but told me that one of the parents had a chat to the "offerer" about it. At the meeting they spoke about Collingwood scholarships being available to some players, Uni scholarships, UAI bonus along with gym facilities and the likes if they joined the side.

It was all done very underhanded with secretive calls to talented players from various regions under the guise of just being a bit of an intensive Collingwood 4-6 week training run (Was in 2008 prior to Christmas). Uni didn't announce they were going to field an 18's side until the end of the programme.

As I said, no use harping on and time to move forward. At least other clubs who have gone on a poaching spree aren't in denial about how they do things. I just wanted to give the facts

[Pekay]

I have never said if it was actually available to every man and his dog. I do know as a fact it was mentioned to the parents at the "development squad" that Uni had prior to their announcing that they intended to field a team in 2009. I spoke to three parents, all of whom are super reliable. One didn't even know what UAI meant, but told me that one of the parents had a chat to the "offerer" about it. At the meeting they spoke about Collingwood scholarships being available to some players, Uni scholarships, UAI bonus along with gym facilities and the likes if they joined the side.

It was all done very underhanded with secretive calls to talented players from various regions under the guise of just being a bit of an intensive Collingwood 4-6 week training run (Was in 2008 prior to Christmas). Uni didn't announce they were going to field an 18's side until the end of the programme.

As I said, no use harping on and time to move forward. At least other clubs who have gone on a poaching spree aren't in denial about how they do things. I just wanted to give the facts

Hey, I was talking about dykes!

[ShortHalfHead]

Hey, I was talking about dykes!

Sorry, didn't realise I posted with a quote of yours. As for dykes, no idea. We don't have any in Penriff. Think they congregate at the northern end of Castlereagh Rd past Agnes Banks

[unconfuseme]

I have never said if it was actually available to every man and his dog. I do know as a fact it was mentioned to the parents at the "development squad" that Uni had prior to their announcing that they intended to field a team in 2009. I spoke to three parents, all of whom are super reliable. One didn't even know what UAI meant, but told me that one of the parents had a chat to the "offerer" about it. At the meeting they spoke about Collingwood scholarships being available to some players, Uni scholarships, UAI bonus along with gym facilities and the likes if they joined the side.

It was all done very underhanded with secretive calls to talented players from various regions under the guise of just being a bit of an intensive Collingwood 4-6 week training run (Was in 2008 prior to Christmas). Uni didn't announce they were going to field an 18's side until the end of the programme.

As I said, no use harping on and time to move forward. At least other clubs who have gone on a poaching spree aren't in denial about how they do things. I just wanted to give the facts

... this is all correct ... of course, any AFL player who has reaches elite status in their HSC year can apply under the scheme. Playing for SU u/18's would hardly qualify. The non-scholarship players were required 2 years ago to enable the scholarship players a quality training group - had to get them there somehow - truth was, if they were good enough, one of the other 15 AFL clubs would have probably offered a scholarship.

[mountainsofpain]

To be honest I dont care about Sydney Uni offering incentives to play but it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.
Yes. Exactly.

[Norris Lurker]

The divisional structure for the open-age comps seems to be working well - we've had more teams and hardly any forfeits this year, certainly a lot less than there were a couple of years ago. But the under 18s, with the Premier Division clubs plus Riverview in Premier Cup and the other clubs in Challenge Cup, is throwing up lopsided games and too many forfeits.
Putting the draws out for the senior divisions in December/January is working well; but I wonder if we should wait till later in the pre-season before seeding teams and doing the draws for the Under 18s. Maybe a grading carnival in March, similar to what they did a few years ago. But I don't think that a club having their senior team in Premier Division should automatically qualify their Under 18s for Premier Cup, or that having their senior team in another division means their Under 18s have to play Challenge Cup. The Under 18s would have to earn the right to play in Premier Cup.
Balmain would probably have known they were in trouble in Under 18s during the pre-season, but had to try to soldier on out of their depth in Premier Cup before throwing in the towel. It may have made more sense to rescue them from that position before the season started.
It may be easier for a club like Campbelltown or Balmain to attract Under 18s players if they weren't lambs to the slaughter that knew they were going to get belted every week; while a club with a strong Under 18s lineup in any given year, like Penrith this year, would get to test themselves against opposition that are more worthy of their abilities. And for Challenge Cup, it may be worth lowering the bar and having 15 a side on the field - that will lower the threshold of numbers needed to avoid a forfeit.

[beameup]

My only problem with all this is we are forgetting the concept of a club. To be successful as a club multiple teams are needed to feed through into the higher grades. Everybody aspires to play at the highest possible level until a point is reached that they realise they cannot do it. Imagine a Premier Division club (Or even 1st division) that plays 2nd or 3rd division and challenge Cup due to one or two poor years. How would they ever attract palyers to maintain their standing and tradition. I know a lot of you would say who cares but the reality is that club doews care.NRL for example has its feeder clubs but maintains its U20 team.

We will end up with an English soccer comp without clubs but 50 individual teams. Is that really what we are after. I am all for clubs striving to get bigger and better and playing at high levels and believe in promotion and relegation but it is fairly harsh on the basis of one years performance.

[ShortHalfHead]

Certainly some good points there, Norris. No definative answers from me, but I believe that succesful CC teams should be given the opportunity of promotion like the divisionalisation system allows. Of course that depends on whether or not the club wants promotion based on what they honestly feel their playing numbers and strengths will be the following year. Having an under-strength Premier Cup side is detrimental to the club, their opponents and the league in general. As we all know, players will drop off quickly if they are not playing in a competitive team and the problems escalate from there.
Pre-season grading trials are one option but it didn't really work in the past. I can see some merit in selected games being played with teams that are pushing for PC. No need for the North Shore, ECE, Penno etc clubs to be involved as they are proven PC clubs with strong junior bases and no need for CC teams who aren't looking to go to PC. Clubs struggling in PC have to bite the bullet and realise that dropping down a division means more likelihood of success and a chance to rebuild on that success. Happens in the seniors where teams like Nor-West dropped a division last year, had a good year and were promoted again this year and are doing well. If they had not dropped down in 2009, I don't think they would have been competitive and would have seen some sort of exodus. Amazing what a decent year does for the confidence no matter what division they are playing in.

Re the 15 aside, I don't think it is a viable option. Kids coming up would have played 18 aside for the previous 4-5 years and probably don't want to go back to playing Under 12's footy. It's not an encouragement to clubs to try and get 25+ squads on their books.

[Shotties]

it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.

[tara]

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.

Mate I didnt have a go at you or say your not trying anything but at this stage can you honestly say that you have any sort of sustainable base at present from which you can sustain your 18's without looking to other areas. You can use the argument of kids going to the Uni wanting to play for the Uni all you want but unless they are a child prodigy most students wouldnt qualify for 18's and if they did they would be second year 18's. What I and I suspect most here would like to see is that over the next few years your clubs 18's is developed around your local junior clubs.

The uni's have a natural advantage of attracting a wide cross section of the young adult population and yours in particular as one that could be argued the most prestigious in Sydney also draws a large contingent of interstate students would find it easier to attract players as it would be convient to both play, train and study in the one location.

Do you know what it is like to work closely with junior clubs over a number of years to see very little return and to then have clubs like yours which are well outside of the region sway kids with stars in their eyes with bull@@@@? We have worked closely with three junior clubs over the in particular the past 4 years but at present only one fields a 16's team and only one likes like doing so again in 2011.

Everyone of our kids are locals and around half are from non AFL backgrounds but we dont care, we are prepared to put in the time and effort to develop them. You guys put together a star studded team that I suspect almost not one of your seniors players would have known before they arrived. 30% of my senior side are new to the game and even a bigger percentage in the ressies.

Clubs in the western suburbs in particular have a hard time attracting players as most young people in the area regard AFL as an Alien sport.
Do you know how perilous the state of the junior competition in the South West is? At this stage our club only has in reality 7 kids available to attempt to attract to our 18's next year primarly due to our current pathway?
Are you aware that Bankstown Juniors are they only club that is viable for us to look at has been zoned to GWS and this may see one of the better run junior clubs decimated with departures to to the fact that almost 100% of the parents there want nothing to do with it?
Bankstown is also a feeder club to three PD clubs as well as another 3 lower div clubs at present.

I could go on for ever but are you able to answer one last question? Why did Paul Roos and the Swans get so uptight about the way you went about things?

[Shotties]

Mate I didnt have a go at you or say your not trying anything

You just said "it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard." so I asked what you knew about SUs work in the area to be able to make such a definitive statement.

[tara]

You just said "it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard." so I asked what you knew about SUs work in the area to be able to make such a definitive statement.

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

[Shotties]

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

Yes but people on here equivocate me saying that SUANFC can't give out ATAR points with the University not giving out sports scholarships full stop, so you'll have to pardon my doubting the general powers of perception on here. You made the statement, I was curious as to what you knew. I generally don't pass comment on the inner workings of other clubs because, well, I don't know.

[PATCHY]

The divisional structure for the open-age comps seems to be working well - we've had more teams and hardly any forfeits this year, certainly a lot less than there were a couple of years ago. But the under 18s, with the Premier Division clubs plus Riverview in Premier Cup and the other clubs in Challenge Cup, is throwing up lopsided games and too many forfeits.
Putting the draws out for the senior divisions in December/January is working well; but I wonder if we should wait till later in the pre-season before seeding teams and doing the draws for the Under 18s. Maybe a grading carnival in March, similar to what they did a few years ago. But I don't think that a club having their senior team in Premier Division should automatically qualify their Under 18s for Premier Cup, or that having their senior team in another division means their Under 18s have to play Challenge Cup. The Under 18s would have to earn the right to play in Premier Cup.
Balmain would probably have known they were in trouble in Under 18s during the pre-season, but had to try to soldier on out of their depth in Premier Cup before throwing in the towel. It may have made more sense to rescue them from that position before the season started.
It may be easier for a club like Campbelltown or Balmain to attract Under 18s players if they weren't lambs to the slaughter that knew they were going to get belted every week; while a club with a strong Under 18s lineup in any given year, like Penrith this year, would get to test themselves against opposition that are more worthy of their abilities. And for Challenge Cup, it may be worth lowering the bar and having 15 a side on the field - that will lower the threshold of numbers needed to avoid a forfeit.

Have to agree Norris.
makes sense to me.

Also a bit out there but...
maybe worth going to 3 comps of 6 for the 18 to help get over the current speed bump.
prem div with top 6 teams only
2x second tier 6 team comps based along geographical lines to reduce travel for away games.
North/west and south/east perhaps.
May be easier to fill teams ,particularly the early games a distance away from home .

[mountainsofpain]

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.
Well, for a start, I know that Sydney Uni regards its local junior recruiting area as extending out as far as Penrith. :)

[snow leopard]

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

Most senior clubs do nothing for junior development they just take the recruits after under 16's, pick the ones they want and use the rest at there convenience or discard them. Those clubs that do help out with juniors is only minor and dare i say it lip service rules the day (oh look we are helping our junior clubs). In essence a traning session here and there is the best i have seen. Picking on the uni's is probably not the right thing here. Under the pathway system the uni's need to be accomodated as well. Even if it gives juniors a choice of where to go after junior footy. If we are going to spread the game we need to spread the talent available. 18's should play 18's not 1st, 2nd 3rd or 4th grade. If an under 18 is good enough to play 1st's or 2nd's then they should play there and not be allowed to play 18's. Club's with 18's should be limited to say 30-32 players any excess over that should be sent to other clubs BY THE AFL this will in turn stop forfeits because clubs will have numbers. If the game is going to go anywhere you cannot have the SUPER CLUBS NS, Penno, ECE and St George having huge lists of players and other clubs forfeiting because of poor numbers.

[tara]

SUPER CLUBS NS, Penno, ECE and St George having huge lists of players and other clubs forfeiting because of poor numbers.

Firstly last time I looked NS and StG only have three teams, Saints in particular is one that is built around their local talen to say the are a Super Club is absurd - I wasnt picking on the Unis, all I did was point out what most feel regarding what should be a long dead issue of SU's questionble establishment of their under 18's. Also surely is you want to brand clubs as you have then SU should be at the top of the tree as the are only club that fields senior teams in all grades of Sydney football as well as an PD 18's team. As for the other uni's I have always had a good relationship with UNSW and MU.

With regards the rest of you speil I agree with most of what you have said but not allowing 18's to drop back after playing seniors I dont, after a long season many of these kids will be struggling both physically and mentally and should be allowed the opportunity to play against their peers. I would much rather that 18's except in the exceptional cases only play 18's and compete in a grade where their opponents are at similar stages of physical development.

If the AFL want to improve the stuggling 18's comp then perhaps they look at keeping the u18's as PD and raising the challenge cup to u19 level to allow those kids an extra year. Lets be honest Sydney football are hell bent of following everything the AFL do but in reality most kids are already identified well before 18's and kids playing challenge cup have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting drafted.

[beameup]

Most senior clubs do nothing for junior development they just take the recruits after under 16's, pick the ones they want and use the rest at there convenience or discard them. Those clubs that do help out with juniors is only minor and dare i say it lip service rules the day (oh look we are helping our junior clubs). In essence a traning session here and there is the best i have seen. Picking on the uni's is probably not the right thing here. Under the pathway system the uni's need to be accomodated as well. Even if it gives juniors a choice of where to go after junior footy. If we are going to spread the game we need to spread the talent available. 18's should play 18's not 1st, 2nd 3rd or 4th grade. If an under 18 is good enough to play 1st's or 2nd's then they should play there and not be allowed to play 18's. Club's with 18's should be limited to say 30-32 players any excess over that should be sent to other clubs BY THE AFL this will in turn stop forfeits because clubs will have numbers. If the game is going to go anywhere you cannot have the SUPER CLUBS NS, Penno, ECE and St George having huge lists of players and other clubs forfeiting because of poor numbers.

Sorry but will never agree that footy can tell unpaid 16 and 17 year olds that you cannot play for your local club with your mates but have to play in another club down the road. This would be quickest way to reducing numbers playing AFL you could imagine. This is sport played for fun. Besides which there really is no legal way of sying to someone sorry you have to play for a different team in a lower standard league.

Loaning of excess players on permit is the way to do it. If they enjoy it they can always transfer later.

[Junior]

Club's with 18's should be limited to say 30-32 players any excess over that should be sent to other clubs BY THE AFL this will in turn stop forfeits because clubs will have numbers.

So you want to tell a kid who might live 5 minutes from his local ground that he can't play there and he has to travel 40 mins to another ground to train and play... I know what the kid will say: "stuff that, I'll play soccer."

You might want to change your spots on this one...

[tara]

So you want to tell a kid who might live 5 minutes from his local ground that he can't play there and he has to travel 40 mins to another ground to train and play... I know what the kid will say: "stuff that, I'll play soccer."

You might want to change your spots on this one...

Mate you know that will never happen and anyone with half a brain knows why the zoning was introduced, I know your a pretty intelligent bloke, do you really think a kid from Penrith travels all the way to SU to play with his mates.

[Junior]

Mate you know that will never happen and anyone with half a brain knows why the zoning was introduced, I know your a pretty intelligent bloke, do you really think a kid from Penrith travels all the way to SU to play with his mates.

We're talking about two different kids here Tara. One kid is the tallented young footballer from out west that inner city clubs might try to entice to play for them. That's the kid that the zoning laws are trying to protect. The other kid is kid number 33 on Snow Leopard's roster that the AFL 'should' tell to go and play for another team. I agree whole heartedly with you mate on the issue of zoning.

What The Spotted One is trying to say is that player number 33 who was not on any club's radar should have to go to another club to make up numbers there. Essentially he is saying that once East Coast for instance has 32 players on their list, the next kid who walks through the door will have to go and play for Campbelltown because they haven't got enough numbers yet, regardless of the fact that this kid lives right next to Bruce Purser. I'm just using these two clubs as an example, please no one get precious or offended...

[unconfuseme]

Clubs in the western suburbs in particular have a hard time attracting players as most young people in the area regard AFL as an Alien sport.
Do you know how perilous the state of the junior competition in the South West is? At this stage our club only has in reality 7 kids available to attempt to attract to our 18's next year primarly due to our current pathway?
Are you aware that Bankstown Juniors are they only club that is viable for us to look at has been zoned to GWS and this may see one of the better run junior clubs decimated with departures to to the fact that almost 100% of the parents there want nothing to do with it?Bankstown is also a feeder club to three PD clubs as well as another 3 lower div clubs at present.

I could go on for ever but are you able to answer one last question? Why did Paul Roos and the Swans get so uptight about the way you went about things?

... aah yes, "the ticking bomb" ... watch this space!!! It will be interesting to see how the AFL's Nero impersonation works out for them:(

[The Student]

Mate you know that will never happen and anyone with half a brain knows why the zoning was introduced, I know your a pretty intelligent bloke, do you really think a kid from Penrith travels all the way to SU to play with his mates.

He might want to play at a club that has a team in a higher division than 3rd if he is good enough to play Senior football? Or he might want to aim at getting a sporting scholarship and making something of his future. Either way, the choice is his - nobody at SU holds a gun to anyone's head and says "you must play here". Maybe you could ask, say, our current first grade captain if he thinks he'd be better off at SU or Penrith and see what response you get? Despite what you might think, SUANFC is a great club and a fantastic place to play football - this is why you rarely see anyone leave (disregarding those who relocate interstate or overseas).

[tara]

He might want to play at a club that has a team in a higher division than 3rd if he is good enough to play Senior football? Or he might want to aim at getting a sporting scholarship and making something of his future. Either way, the choice is his - nobody at SU holds a gun to anyone's head and says "you must play here". Maybe you could ask, say, our current first grade captain if he thinks he'd be better off at SU or Penrith and see what response you get? Despite what you might think, SUANFC is a great club and a fantastic place to play football - this is why you rarely see anyone leave (disregarding those who relocate interstate or overseas).

If it came to playing at a higher division the why not East Coast they are at least as well run as yours and he certainly wouldnt have to travel the distance - As for your scholarships I thought they were almost impossible to obtain - that is the only benefit I can see and Im unsure where you are coming from regarding making something of his future? Do you mean sporting future or career wise? Given these kids hadnt even completed their HSC and in most cases would have only been in yr 11 how could they possibly know Uni they would get accepted in.

[DLH]

Maybe you could ask, say, our current first grade captain if he thinks he'd be better off at SU or Penrith and see what response you get?

I'd be surprised if Mark has a bad word to say about Penrith, although no doubt he's enjoying his time at Sydney Uni, good luck to him.

Certainly we take some pride in the fact that we've produced a couple of very fine Premier Division footballers and captains in Eags and Richo.

[ShortHalfHead]

Either way, the choice is his - nobody at SU holds a gun to anyone's head and says "you must play here". .

That would be all but the Collingwood scholarship players, I imagine.

[The Student]

I'd be surprised if Mark has a bad word to say about Penrith, although no doubt he's enjoying his time at Sydney Uni, good luck to him.

Certainly we take some pride in the fact that we've produced a couple of very fine Premier Division footballers and captains in Eags and Richo.


I don't think he would either - no doubt he wouldn't be the footballer he is today without Penrith. My point was that if a young guy is a very talented young footballer and he has an opportunity to play at a PD club such as Uni, ECE or wherever, he would probably benefit from making the jump at some stage.

[The Student]

If it came to playing at a higher division the why not East Coast they are at least as well run as yours and he certainly wouldnt have to travel the distance - As for your scholarships I thought they were almost impossible to obtain - that is the only benefit I can see and Im unsure where you are coming from regarding making something of his future? Do you mean sporting future or career wise? Given these kids hadnt even completed their HSC and in most cases would have only been in yr 11 how could they possibly know Uni they would get accepted in.

I am referring to career wise - if a young bloke is interested in going to Uni and has the opportunity to play at our club why wouldn't he have a crack at obtaining a scholarship? I wouldn't necessarily say that they are impossible to obtain but they aren't handed out like lollies.

I'm not going to respond to your other comment about ECE because it's fairly obvious that they are the benchmark that all Sydney clubs should aspire to emulate. From what I see of them they are a professional unit on and off-field.

[The Student]

That would be all but the Collingwood scholarship players, I imagine.

And Fremantle ones too, apparently?

[unconfuseme]

Big day for the 'towners today ... :o wtf is going on down there???

[The Student]

Big day for the 'towners today ... :o wtf is going on down there???

They are obviously going through a bit of a rough patch but turning up to a Premier Division match with one on the bench is shambolic. Especially when that single bench player is older than time. Don't get me wrong, he was probably a great player in his day and a club legend but the whole thing was ludicrous.

[unconfuseme]

ROUGH PATCH ... is it right that their 18's AND their Div 3 side both forfeited? ... and still could only get a token bench player for PD???

Sorry, time to take a good hard look at what you are doing, 'cause it ain't working!

Swallow your pride and ask for help from the clubs around you who are going from strength to strength, before it's too late (if it's not already)!!!

[The Purse]

and.... the league must step in what a joke, they need to show leadership, a very bad look for the competition, especially premier division, hiding heads in sand with c/town wont stop the problem, it was nearly same result last weekend, if it wasnt at home would of been same result, maybe paying for parking at Sydney Uni stopped a few going?? They may of not made enough at the gate the week prior?? Lucky for one thing though least Syd Uni hosted the game, as they would of had to supply the balls as well.