Balmain Dockers Under 18's Withdraw

[Roscoe]

I understand that the Balmain 18's have withdrawn from the Premier Cup

Sad news for everyone, especially the boys who now have to find another team

Campbelltown 18's also forfeited on the weekend

Rather than pointing fingers can we have some meaningful debate on how to

1. Re scedule the competitions(s) for the 18's for the remainer of the year

2. What it means for the future of the Under 18's in coming seasons

[beameup]

Very sad.

Now they need to work on getting rid of the bye in the draw, the inequity that some clubs have bonus percentage having played Balmain but most importantly getting all the boys a game. How I am not sure as most clubs seem to have enough other than Capbelltown. Maybe the NRL model of Camp and Balmain joining might work for a season. Depends on boys and their parents.

[Norris Lurker]

Disappointing if that's the case, especially as it would be the second time in 3 years that Balmain's under 18s have pulled out mid-season.

In terms of Roscoe's questions, what I would be inclined to do is:
1. For the remainder of the season, I'd throw out the draw as it currently stands, and have the Premier Cup draw running parallel with Premier Division except with Riverview replacing Balmain. Not sure how to restructure the ladder - it's not fair when some clubs have already played Balmain and others haven't.
2. With the number of forfeits we've had across the under 18s competition, I'm wondering whether we should go back to having gradings over the first couple of weeks of the season before seeding teams into Premier Cup and Challenge Cup. That may prevent a recurrence of Riverview's Challenge Cup team pulling out on the eve of the season, which meant both comps had a bye - and may have sent warning bells out about Balmain's squad before it got to this. While having the draws for the senior comps out in December-January works well, it may be too early for workable under 18s fixtures.

To lose an under 18s club mid-season once is unfortunate, to do so twice in a couple of years is a problem. Unless there's an influx of junior talent coming into the club next season, I wouldn't put them back into Premier Cup next year. They won Challenge Cup in 2006, and I'd be inclined to put them back there and let them experience some success to work their way back into Premier Cup.

[unconfuseme]

They can afford it - fine them!

[Pekay]

Time for UTS to be given their opportunity. Shift to Alan Davidson Oval, ECE used it for long enough. But then again, if Ern Holmes can be used in Prems, Trumper can as well.

[Mahatma]

and what are uts going to do for under 18s.
seems like an easy fix but im sure unsw will have something to say about them taking juniors.

[Pekay]

and what are uts going to do for under 18s.
seems like an easy fix but im sure unsw will have something to say about them taking juniors.

Nothing really, Sydney Uni didn't need to field 18s for their first couple of years. And clubs living on top of each other, or not even within close proximity, and taking players is as old as time itself. Not a day goes by without a shot from the Riff at ECE on here. I reckon, give UTS their chance, 2 years to get an 18s up and running, or even Manly, they'll be ready, besides their current ground.

[beameup]

Nothing really, Sydney Uni didn't need to field 18s for their first couple of years. And clubs living on top of each other, or not even within close proximity, and taking players is as old as time itself. Not a day goes by without a shot from the Riff at ECE on here. I reckon, give UTS their chance, 2 years to get an 18s up and running, or even Manly, they'll be ready, besides their current ground.

I don't think it matters anyway because we have Riverview sitting there who will never have seniors. Two educational centres providing the full suite of teams will also give Riverview the opportunity to push up some better kids so they do not have to go to North Shore who have great juniors anyway. Gives the boys a pathway.

[ShortHalfHead]

Nothing really, Sydney Uni didn't need to field 18s for their first couple of years. And clubs living on top of each other, or not even within close proximity, and taking players is as old as time itself. Not a day goes by without a shot from the Riff at ECE on here.

Those voices in your head playing with you again?

[Pekay]

Those voices in your head playing with you again?

You know I can go back a few pages and find an East Poach reference SHH, its as easy as finding a post deleted of Doormat's.

[ShortHalfHead]

You know I can go back a few pages and find an East Poach reference SHH, its as easy as finding a post deleted of Doormat's.

Having to "go back a few pages" to find a reference to East Poach is hardly a comparison to "Not a day goes by without a shot from the Riff at ECE on here"
I would imagine that the neatest way of structuring the rest of the comp would be to have the bye teams playing each other and the ladder being reverted to match ratio. I don't know if trial days are the answer for gradings for 2011 and beyond. Didn't seem to be workable in the past. Clubs have to be accountable in realising how competitive they will be in both divisions and nominate as such. The draw will have to be done a lot later than the seniors one. The club review and nomination of 18's teams is done far too early. Struggling Premier Cup clubs should embrace the idea of dropping to Challenge as it makes them competitive which in turn attracts new players, even close to the season's start. Even at the end of last year I thought that three teams would struggle to be competitive and field full sides in PC. I was wrong with Wests who have bulked up this year, the other two, sadly I was spot on with.

[tara]

SHH I would lay money on those struggling clubs knocking back the option of playing in the challenge cup if given the opportunity - they wouldnt be able to swallow their pride.

[Pekay]

Having to "go back a few pages" to find a reference to East Poach is hardly a comparison to "Not a day goes by without a shot from the Riff at ECE on here"
I would imagine that the neatest way of structuring the rest of the comp would be to have the bye teams playing each other and the ladder being reverted to match ratio. I don't know if trial days are the answer for gradings for 2011 and beyond. Didn't seem to be workable in the past. Clubs have to be accountable in realising how competitive they will be in both divisions and nominate as such. The draw will have to be done a lot later than the seniors one. The club review and nomination of 18's teams is done far too early. Struggling Premier Cup clubs should embrace the idea of dropping to Challenge as it makes them competitive which in turn attracts new players, even close to the season's start. Even at the end of last year I thought that three teams would struggle to be competitive and field full sides in PC. I was wrong with Wests who have bulked up this year, the other two, sadly I was spot on with.

Can't we just have a hug and get back to being happy neighbours?

[PATCHY]

perhaps its time to consider regionalising the 18's..a north- west /central- south
Cut the Travel time and make it easier for Players and Parents to get to games.
Also Junior clubs should be able to enter teams. They seem to do alright getting one or 2 teams of under 16 s on the paddock. Perhaps they would be better at getting the 18's on the paddock too.

[Coastal Boy]

I don't think it matters anyway because we have Riverview sitting there who will never have seniors. Two educational centres providing the full suite of teams will also give Riverview the opportunity to push up some better kids so they do not have to go to North Shore who have great juniors anyway. Gives the boys a pathway.

I would have hoped that Riverview would look at entering an "old boys" team in the senior ranks eventually. I would be surprised if they did not have currently a dozen rugby old boys teams.

[Mug Punter]

I would have hoped that Riverview would look at entering an "old boys" team in the senior ranks eventually. I would be surprised if they did not have currently a dozen rugby old boys teams.

I would have thought that should be on the NSWAFL's radar.

Very sad news re the Tigers' U18s though no great surprise. A real indictment on the clowns running that club. Most of those kids are now lost to the game never to return....

[48 Hour Detox]

I would have thought that should be on the NSWAFL's radar.

Very sad news re the Tigers' U18s though no great surprise. A real indictment on the clowns running that club. Most of those kids are now lost to the game never to return....

So Mug Punter, when teams are forfeiting u18's....you say its not the clubs fault, but moreso the fault of the AFL. Balmain, who has not forfeited any u18's game s and did their utmost to get a team of on te field each and every week, but when its became apparent that they simply could not get the numbers and forfeits were inevitable almost at a weekly level.....then its the clubs fault?????? Not sure how that works?? Campbelltown forfeit due to numbers and its no fault of the club. balmain withdraw due to numbers and they are clowns??

[48 Hour Detox]

This is what you said Mug Punter

"Yes, the youth of today.

What a joke to use that as an excuse. If we cannot get 200 kids in the U18 age group playing AFL each weekend then the game is fundamentally weak in this city. Once all the fake registrations fall away at auskick level we have a game that is very very shakey at the grassroots level.

Not sure what the solutuion is but I fail to see how it is the club's fault..."

[Mug Punter]

So Mug Punter, when teams are forfeiting u18's....you say its not the clubs fault, but moreso the fault of the AFL. Balmain, who has not forfeited any u18's game s and did their utmost to get a team of on te field each and every week, but when its became apparent that they simply could not get the numbers and forfeits were inevitable almost at a weekly level.....then its the clubs fault?????? Not sure how that works?? Campbelltown forfeit due to numbers and its no fault of the club. balmain withdraw due to numbers and they are clowns??

Last time I checked those mentioned clubs weren't paying AFL footballers $1,000 a week to walk around the park every weekend.

Your club clearly has completely misguided priorities and all your words at the start of the year of building a club from the ground up, doing things the right way etc etc are clearly very very hollow....

[Mr PHD]

Mug Punter and 48 hr detox,

Can you two just ring each other up and sort it out?
There isnt a problem at all mug punter- you should become a "smart punter."
48 hr detox keep up the good work.


However a question to you both- When was the last time a player kicked 10 goals in reserves, firsts have not looked like winning a game, and that goal kicking genius was not promoted to firsts the following week?




This is what you said Mug Punter

"Yes, the youth of today.

What a joke to use that as an excuse. If we cannot get 200 kids in the U18 age group playing AFL each weekend then the game is fundamentally weak in this city. Once all the fake registrations fall away at auskick level we have a game that is very very shakey at the grassroots level.

Not sure what the solutuion is but I fail to see how it is the club's fault..."

[beameup]

However a question to you both- When was the last time a player kicked 10 goals in reserves, firsts have not looked like winning a game, and that goal kicking genius was not promoted to firsts the following week?[/QUOTE]

Ouch!!!!!

[48 Hour Detox]

Last time I checked those mentioned clubs weren't paying AFL footballers $1,000 a week to walk around the park every weekend.

Your club clearly has completely misguided priorities and all your words at the start of the year of building a club from the ground up, doing things the right way etc etc are clearly very very hollow....

Paying first graders has nothing to do with numbers of kids under the age of 18! Nothing! Reality is there are not enough kids........there is no difference between balmain and other clubs struggling with numbers on that front.

But as usual, its OK for other clubs, but when its balmain, its not OK.

Again, more than happy for you to come and introduce yourself to one of the board members or coaching staff and they will run you thorugh that they are trying to achieve. As again, you don;t know what the Balmain footy club are trying to achieve.

[48 Hour Detox]

Mug Punter and 48 hr detox,

Can you two just ring each other up and sort it out?
There isnt a problem at all mug punter- you should become a "smart punter."
48 hr detox keep up the good work.


However a question to you both- When was the last time a player kicked 10 goals in reserves, firsts have not looked like winning a game, and that goal kicking genius was not promoted to firsts the following week?

MR PHD....I have been trying to get Mug Punter to speak to one of the people at Balmain and to sort things out....but he never wants to!!

re your 10 goal hero......my mail is that Kipperreanu was playing on a 12yr old and that and was gifted 8 of those goals.

[Mug Punter]

There isnt a problem at all mug punter

Keep up the good work at Tigerland fellas, looks like your 5 year plan is coming along a treat.......

[48 Hour Detox]

Keep up the good work at Tigerland fellas, looks like your 5 year plan is coming along a treat.......

Thanks mate.....as always, the invitation to come and have a listen to what the plan actually is, is wide open!!

[Shotties]

Why don't you cut out the middle man and just say it?

[BIGSHOW]

As Kippa the evergreen anchor of the ressies didn't kick ten goals against parra on Saturday he has been dropped due to poor form for the game against Sydney uni.

[unconfuseme]

The simple problem is that there are too many senior clubs in Sydney as a ratio to junior clubs, and too many of them only pay lip service to junior development.

Balmain and Campbelltown do not have sufficient juniors feeding to them to be sustainable ... it's just facts!

In Balmain's case it's the inner city demographic ... in Campbelltown's case, well how can you blow it with the junior area they have???

So would it be far fetched for them to do what the NRL did? ... Wests Tigers seems to work for them.

The AFL has done no planning in this regard, so you get what you get.

Loads of Auskick clinics, but no leadership or planning for senior footy clubs.

Then they beat their chest about 2 new clubs joining this year ... like Camden, not new clubs at all! ... and where will the juniors come from to support them?

[Mug Punter]

The simple problem is that there are too many senior clubs in Sydney as a ratio to junior clubs, and too many of them only pay lip service to junior development.

Balmain and Campbelltown do not have sufficient juniors feeding to them to be sustainable ... it's just facts!

In Balmain's case it's the inner city demographic ... in Campbelltown's case, well how can you blow it with the junior area they have???

So would it be far fetched for them to do what the NRL did? ... Wests Tigers seems to work for them.

The AFL has done no planning in this regard, so you get what you get.

Loads of Auskick clinics, but no leadership or planning for senior footy clubs.

Then they beat their chest about 2 new clubs joining this year ... like Camden, not new clubs at all! ... and where will the juniors come from to support them?

Yes, let's merge juniro clubs. What a brilliant idea to develop the game:rolleyes:

Well before the game had all the millions injected into it we had a very very viable U19 and U20 system in Sydney. WIth the junior clubs out Campbelltown way there is absolutely no way the numbers are not there. Similarly with Balmain and their 3 junior clubs.

If we can't get at least 20 under age teams on the field in a city of 5M people then we may as well give up given how much the AFL have allegedly invested here. I see it more as a misue of the resources - they simply cut out at the junior level - if a kid aint gping to be drafted they simply don't care.

Surely it is time for the AFL to get serious about some real development of the game at senior level in Sydney.

I still think the idea of reverting to the U19/U20 model has enormous merit.....

[mountainsofpain]

Surely it is time for the AFL to get serious about some real development of the game at senior level in Sydney.

If you are talking of doing this via way of further resources being input to senior football in Sydney, it won't happen. You've essentially answered why yourself:


I see it more as a misue of the resources - they simply cut out at the junior level - if a kid aint gping to be drafted they simply don't care.


Funds are poured into NSW by the AFL for two reasons - firstly, as you said, to develop kids via the elite programmes in the hope of developing a talent pool for the draft. And secondly, it is poured into the game at the junior level to develop AFL consumers - ie to make sure all the kids who go through the Auskick & junior ranks will gobble up AFL product as kids and adults (that is to go to games, watch it on TV, buy and wear merchandise, and generally be AFL friendly in what used to be a very hostile environment).

The AFL doesn't pour these millions into NSW to see the Sydney AFL grow and develop. It spends the money to either generate further revenue or to directly benefit the national competition. Whether the Sydney AFL thrives or not really is irrelevant to them - I doubt if Andrew D gives a rats to be honest.

Don't get me wrong - I think the AFL should care about grassroots senior football (not just in NSW either), because that is one of its responsibilities as the caretaker of the code. However, while another of its responsibilities is to run the multi-multi-multi-million dollar AFL competition the money generating areas of the game will always dominate its priorities - and grassroots senior footy isn't one of them.

[mountainsofpain]

Well before the game had all the millions injected into it we had a very very viable U19 and U20 system in Sydney. WIth the junior clubs out Campbelltown way there is absolutely no way the numbers are not there. Similarly with Balmain and their 3 junior clubs.

If we can't get at least 20 under age teams on the field in a city of 5M people then we may as well give up given how much the AFL have allegedly invested here. I see it more as a misue of the resources - they simply cut out at the junior level - if a kid aint gping to be drafted they simply don't care.

Surely it is time for the AFL to get serious about some real development of the game at senior level in Sydney.

I still think the idea of reverting to the U19/U20 model has enormous merit.....
My understanding is that it reverted to Under 18s when the highest age group in junior comps went down from Under 17s to Under 16s (in the mid 90s I think).

I don't know if the Under 19s/Under 20s system was a brilliant success every year, but as an example in 1990 there were 8 Under 19 sides and 15 Under 20 sides - again, I don't know if there weren't forfeits happening here either (I would suspect there were):
(U19 sides were: North Shore, St George, Parramatta, Campbelltown, Hills, Western Suburbs, Sydney Uni, East Sydney)
(U20 sides were: Wollongong, Baulkham Hills, Balmain, Sutherland, Liverpool, Manly, Northern Eagles, Mac Uni, Bankstown, Uni of NSW - Div 1; Nepean/Blacktown, Camden, Hawkesbury, Penrith, HMAS Nirimba - Div 2)

But 23 Under Age sides in 1990 compared to what we have now in the Under 18s means we haven't travelled a long way in 20 years. In fact we seem to have gone backwards.

I'm not sure whether it is viable to go to Under 19/Under 20 again, (eg would it rob senior footy of too much talent, is the jump from Under 16s too great). But it is an option to consider, that's for sure.

[Mug Punter]

Funds are poured into NSW by the AFL for two reasons - firstly, as you said, to develop kids via the elite programmes in the hope of developing a talent pool for the draft. And secondly, it is poured into the game at the junior level to develop AFL consumers - ie to make sure all the kids who go through the Auskick & junior ranks will gobble up AFL product as kids and adults (that is to go to games, watch it on TV, buy and wear merchandise, and generally be AFL friendly in what used to be a very hostile environment).

The AFL doesn't pour these millions into NSW to see the Sydney AFL grow and develop. It spends the money to either generate further revenue or to directly benefit the national competition. Whether the Sydney AFL thrives or not really is irrelevant to them - I doubt if Andrew D gives a rats to be honest.

Don't get me wrong - I think the AFL should care about grassroots senior football (not just in NSW either), because that is one of its responsibilities as the caretaker of the code. However, while another of its responsibilities is to run the multi-multi-multi-million dollar AFL competition the money generating areas of the game will always dominate its priorities - and grassroots senior footy isn't one of them.

I agree unfortunately and it's why this whole Team GWS makes my blood boil. There's no legacy to the game at all, just a TV deal so the AFL Fat Cats can justify their enormous salaries.

Until they get Senior footyy and a real football culture in Sydney we will never be able to support two AFL teams on a sustainable basis...

[SecondHalf]

My understanding is that it reverted to Under 18s when the highest age group in junior comps went down from Under 17s to Under 16s (in the mid 90s I think).

I don't know if the Under 19s/Under 20s system was a brilliant success every year, but as an example in 1990 there were 8 Under 19 sides and 15 Under 20 sides - again, I don't know if there weren't forfeits happening here either (I would suspect there were):
(U19 sides were: North Shore, St George, Parramatta, Campbelltown, Hills, Western Suburbs, Sydney Uni, East Sydney)
(U20 sides were: Wollongong, Baulkham Hills, Balmain, Sutherland, Liverpool, Manly, Northern Eagles, Mac Uni, Bankstown, Uni of NSW - Div 1; Nepean/Blacktown, Camden, Hawkesbury, Penrith, HMAS Nirimba - Div 2)

You are correct. It used to be juniors in 2yr age brackets in uneven numbers - U13, U15, U17... when it changed to even numbers U16 was the oldest junior age so kids had to go to what generally was their closest premier or sfa club for U18s. Maybe reverting back could work but I don't see justifiably why it would. If the numbers aren't there then surely it's the same problem regardless of age being U17/U19 or U18...?

[Mug Punter]

You are correct. It used to be juniors in 2yr age brackets in uneven numbers - U13, U15, U17... when it changed to even numbers U16 was the oldest junior age so kids had to go to what generally was their closest premier or sfa club for U18s. Maybe reverting back could work but I don't see justifiably why it would. If the numbers aren't there then surely it's the same problem regardless of age being U17/U19 or U18...?

The reason it should work is that it gives under age footballers an extra year in the system. Clearly we have an issue with numbers and keeping kids in the game, this should assist. Many kids would be much more comfortable playing under age footy at 18 too. In any event that stat from 1990 really does ram home the parlous state of the game in Sydney.

If it's good enough for the VAFA, the comp we should be modelling ourselves on in Sydney IMO, to have U19s and U20s then it should be good enough for us....

[unconfuseme]

Yes, let's merge juniro clubs. What a brilliant idea to develop the game:rolleyes:

Well before the game had all the millions injected into it we had a very very viable U19 and U20 system in Sydney. WIth the junior clubs out Campbelltown way there is absolutely no way the numbers are not there. Similarly with Balmain and their 3 junior clubs.


How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

[Mug Punter]

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

The idea that we have too many Senior Clubs in Sydney is probably the most riduculous post I have heard on here and that includes 48 Hour Detox's musings....

The Unis on the whole don't poach juniors. They do provide good facilities, well supported administrations and welcoming environments. You'd be surprised how many first year Uni players are new to the game.

Ask Tara if merging Bankstown with Liverpool was a good ide and now you want Liverpool to merge with the Blues. Ludicrous in te extreme.

What we need is MORE senior clubs but the transition from U16 to the club network needs strengteneing and the senior clubs need more support.

[tara]

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

Love comments where people open their mouths and voice their opinions on topics they obviously know nothing about.

[mountainsofpain]

Merging senior sides is the last thing you would want to do if you want the senior game to grow in Sydney.

As has been pointed out, you need to find ways of getting more juniors going through from 16s to 18s - and then from 18s to seniors. I would assume that both those areas have significant player leakages.

[Doormat]

Spot on unconfuseme.

Bottom line let the Sydney AFL run a regional U'18's comp.
From there kids will be able to correctly take the path way into Sydney seniors.
Regions should be split up based on where the most kids are i.e. Inner city "may" have 3 teams & would feed Balmain/Uni/UNSW, where the north west may only have 2 teams and feed P/H/ECE/Mac UNI & the west have 2-3 teams & feed Campbelltown/Riff/Northwest etc etc. It will bring the both grades premier/challenge into play & really allow for development as kids can go up or down based on performance.

This will stop ECE/UNI poaching & paying kids & allow for senior clubs to concentrate on surviving the next 5-10years. No one will have any rights to these teams. let the seniors play as seniors & the juniors develop under the SAFL. We "could" even have a draft should a kid not want to go to his pathway club because UNI/ECE have got in the ear of the player/parent. Clubs could then be compensated correctly.

I know PK this is your idea but you have sat on it for to long.:p


How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

[Mug Punter]

Spot on unconfuseme.

Bottom line let the Sydney AFL run a regional U'18's comp.
From there kids will be able to correctly take the path way into Sydney seniors.
Regions should be split up based on where the most kids are i.e. Inner city "may" have 3 teams & would feed Balmain/Uni/UNSW, where the north west may only have 2 teams and feed P/H/ECE/Mac UNI & the west have 2-3 teams & feed Campbelltown/Riff/Northwest etc etc. It will bring the both grades premier/challenge into play & really allow for development as kids can go up or down based on performance.

This will stop ECE/UNI poaching & paying kids & allow for senior clubs to concentrate on surviving the next 5-10years. No one will have any rights to these teams. let the seniors play as seniors & the juniors develop under the SAFL. We "could" even have a draft should a kid not want to go to his pathway club because UNI/ECE have got in the ear of the player/parent. Clubs could then be compensated correctly.

I know PK this is your idea but you have sat on it for to long.:p

Yes, an Sydney AFL Player Draft so dozen of kids are forced to play with clubs against their wishes, possibly travelling halfway across Sydney at their own expense.

You are a PEANUT!

[Doormat]

Thanks Mug clearly you let your emotion get the better of you again.

If just for a moment please take off those Blue & gold glasses, as l stated "Could" on the basis that if ECE/UNI do the norm offer kids money to play, the club that the kid is lost to is compensated fairly.
But this new model would stop that. Under this model kids would be forced to play in there own pathway choosing between a first division club or to play with mates.
Pretty fair system & most clubs wouldn't have to pay for it. get it.

FYI, kids are travelling half way around Sydney & the central coast to play with ECE/UNI 18's now & have done so for some time, its proven & its a fact.


Yes, an Sydney AFL Player Draft so dozen of kids are forced to play with clubs against their wishes, possibly travelling halfway across Sydney at their own expense.

You are a PEANUT!

[beameup]

Thanks Mug clearly you let your emotion get the better of you again.

If just for a moment please take off those Blue & gold glasses, as l stated "Could" on the basis that if ECE/UNI do the norm offer kids money to play, the club that the kid is lost to is compensated fairly.
But this new model would stop that. Under this model kids would be forced to play in there own pathway choosing between a first division club or to play with mates.
Pretty fair system & most clubs wouldn't have to pay for it. get it.

FYI, kids are travelling half way around Sydney & the central coast to play with ECE/UNI 18's now & have done so for some time, its proven & its a fact.

Why would clubs be compensated? They have not paid one cent to the development of boys in the juniors so are you suggesting they be compensated for not getting someone they never had. This is amateur footy albeit that a few blokes get paid.

In terms of the Central Coast basically all the 16 and 17 year olds that come to Sydney do sobecause they have had a taste of better footy with Northern Heat and go to Penno anyway.
If you consider that they should be forced to a club because of some weird draft concept I suggest you think about the standard and age that we are talking about. They are boys wanting to play better footy in what is not even the strongest league in NSW. The criteria for most of them is to play as close to home as possible with as good a team as possible.

In saying that there are at times reasons why they go elsewhere which can be mates, parental connections, incentives, a winning team, a traditional strong club or even a club who are prepared to assist with some travel costs.

Why would anyone want to restrict this?

[Doormat]

Teams get compensated should a player not go via the pathway. Everybody wins.

Should get your facts right & not all the central coast players go to Penno!!
Uni & ECE have plenty that they pay.

Let the SAFL control the 18's comp by regions, then you dont have these issues such as UNI/ECE paying kids $200/500 per week or paying under handed payments such as scholarships????

Senior clubs can get on with being senior clubs & focusing on survival & not going head to with Uni/ECE with over inflated payments.

FYI, the infrastructure is already in place at the TPP level.


Why would clubs be compensated? They have not paid one cent to the development of boys in the juniors so are you suggesting they be compensated for not getting someone they never had. This is amateur footy albeit that a few blokes get paid.

In terms of the Central Coast basically all the 16 and 17 year olds that come to Sydney do sobecause they have had a taste of better footy with Northern Heat and go to Penno anyway.
If you consider that they should be forced to a club because of some weird draft concept I suggest you think about the standard and age that we are talking about. They are boys wanting to play better footy in what is not even the strongest league in NSW. The criteria for most of them is to play as close to home as possible with as good a team as possible.

In saying that there are at times reasons why they go elsewhere which can be mates, parental connections, incentives, a winning team, a traditional strong club or even a club who are prepared to assist with some travel costs.

Why would anyone want to restrict this?

[Shotties]

Uni & ECE have plenty that they pay.

Yeah, there'd be a few in line before any of the 18s got anything if that were the case.

[unconfuseme]

Spot on unconfuseme.



... now I'm not so sure that I am right!:p

Seriously ... as for "opinions on topics they obviously know nothing about." ... maybe I'm wrong?

I stand corrected, there are are plenty of juniors running around Campbelltown, Liverpool and Balmain?

Give me a break!

Those clubs all struggle to field an 18's side, or, forfeit or have to draw from players outside their areas - because they do not have enough strong junior teams.

Balmain and Campbelltown are culpable, having presided over the demise of juniors for years (Balmain probably less so because of the demographic).

Magpies are victims of circumstance, having walked into the problem. They are proactive, and the best chance the juniors in their area have had for a long time!

But the facts are undeniable ... I reckon the perfect model would see a ratio of about 1 senior club for every 4 or 5 strong junior clubs, and a strong interaction between both.

How many junior clubs feeding to the new Auburn and Maroubra clubs? ... who's juniors will they be draining?

Poor planning, poor management, from the top. The AFL beats it's chest about new clubs like these, like Camden were, and even Moorebank, to what end?! The net effect is actually a weakening of the whole structure, as there is a shortage of volunteers, administrators, coaches and juniors to start with.

but maybe I'm wrong?

As for a draft, probably not needed now that there is no Scholarship program. The 2 academy system will actually be beneficial to senior clubs, particularly in the west, as there will only be Swans or GWS in the market for kids, and each is restricted to their zone. Collingwood will no doubt pull their support for Uni pretty smartly.

[tara]

As I said uconfuse me you shouldnt offer you opinion when you dont know what your talking about.

Moorebank is not a new club, originally formed in the 1940s as southern districts it has been known under a variety of names and involved a number of clubs including Liverpool, Bankstown and Parramatta. In 1996 the Liverpool and Bankstown senior clubs merged again under the guise of South West Sydney, we changed our name three years ago to Moorebank Sports Club due to us beoming one of their official sporting codes and it goes along way in securing our financial viability long term. Over the past four years we have made working with the junior clubs in our area our primary goal as it ensures our long term viability, prior to that I cant comment as I as not involved on a coaching level. We are currently working with 6 junior clubs with who we expect that our relationship will be long term and the benfits will flow both ways. I will never stand in the way of any of our kids who want to play at a higher level but hopefully we are able to offer them an environment that they want to be a part of and help us move forward.

[48 Hour Detox]

The idea that we have too many Senior Clubs in Sydney is probably the most riduculous post I have heard on here and that includes 48 Hour Detox's musings....

The Unis on the whole don't poach juniors. They do provide good facilities, well supported administrations and welcoming environments. You'd be surprised how many first year Uni players are new to the game.

Ask Tara if merging Bankstown with Liverpool was a good ide and now you want Liverpool to merge with the Blues. Ludicrous in te extreme.

What we need is MORE senior clubs but the transition from U16 to the club network needs strengteneing and the senior clubs need more support.

Uni's don't poach juniors???? Sorry Mug Punter, that ain't true. Without gettign into specifics, I can tell you of two UNi clubs who poach juniors. I have many examples of it.

[Shotties]

Uni's don't poach juniors???? Sorry Mug Punter, that ain't true. Without gettign into specifics, I can tell you of two UNi clubs who poach juniors. I have many examples of it.
I'm sure you've got plenty of examples and nothing behind it.

[unconfuseme]

Moorebank is not a new club - of course you are right, but I never said you were a new club!? ... I was referring to "Campbelltown/Liverpool" in the context of the vast junior area that has disintegrated over the past 10 years.

The fact that the AFL alllowed Camden to form, along with the resurrection of Moorebank, has spread the volunteers, admin, coaches, etc. over 3 clubs in that region, so something had to give!

The supposed "Premier Club" in the area seems to have been "fiddling while Rome burnt", caught up in collecting enough gate receipts to maintain a "Premier" Div team, rather than nurturing those junior clubs - your efforts of late may just save those clubs and if so, you should benefit.

The irony of course is that whilst they are now struggling to get an 18's team on the field, they are blessed with some of the best youngsters around playing in their senior team - go figure!?

The other problem is the way in which the AFL dealt with the diminishing junior team numbers, sending them to play all over western Sydney - that works to keep young families interested in the sport - NOT!

The idea that more senior clubs are needed is ridiculous - The resources to properly run the existing clubs is not there!

Merging clubs and consolidating the management resources will ensure long term success.

Imagine a Moorebank/'town/Camden "Super Club" with merged resources and common goals ... building strong loyal junior links, sponsorship arrangements, focused coaching philosophies, and then duplicating those structures with similar clubs in other regions!

But don't worry, unless the AFL takes the lead and gives some direction (?), it will never happen ... too many egos couldn't handle it!

So, the cycle will continue, and no club is insulated from it happening, as it has to those clubs you mention, and so many others - that is just the nature of amateur sport, run by amateurs.

How to grow the code? LESS SENIOR CLUBS!

[tara]

Moorebank is not a new club - of course you are right, but I never said you were a new club!? ... I was referring to "Campbelltown/Liverpool" in the context of the vast junior area that has disintegrated over the past 10 years.

The fact that the AFL alllowed Camden to form, along with the resurrection of Moorebank, has spread the volunteers, admin, coaches, etc. over 3 clubs in that region, so something had to give!

The supposed "Premier Club" in the area seems to have been "fiddling while Rome burnt", caught up in collecting enough gate receipts to maintain a "Premier" Div team, rather than nurturing those junior clubs - your efforts of late may just save those clubs and if so, you should benefit.

The irony of course is that whilst they are now struggling to get an 18's team on the field, they are blessed with some of the best youngsters around playing in their senior team - go figure!?

The other problem is the way in which the AFL dealt with the diminishing junior team numbers, sending them to play all over western Sydney - that works to keep young families interested in the sport - NOT!

The idea that more senior clubs are needed is ridiculous - The resources to properly run the existing clubs is not there!

Merging clubs and consolidating the management resources will ensure long term success.

Imagine a Moorebank/'town/Camden "Super Club" with merged resources and common goals ... building strong loyal junior links, sponsorship arrangements, focused coaching philosophies, and then duplicating those structures with similar clubs in other regions!

But don't worry, unless the AFL takes the lead and gives some direction (?), it will never happen ... too many egos couldn't handle it!

So, the cycle will continue, and no club is insulated from it happening, as it has to those clubs you mention, and so many others - that is just the nature of amateur sport, run by amateurs.

How to grow the code? LESS SENIOR CLUBS!

You refered to us when referring the the AFL beating its chest over new clubs mate so how should I/we take it.

By the way Town have have opportunites to speak with us and havnet, and the blokes at Camden that I know arnt inclined to what you are saying. No one is interested in a takeover, come and offer something that means Camden dont lose their identity then you might be onto something.

Overall as I said dont make comments if your making assumptions. Your ideas have merit but I think you should look deeper a there is more going on than you see.

[unconfuseme]

For a start, you shouldn't get so bloody touchy! ... I appreciate your club's history, and didn't intend to refer to you as a "new" club, which you are not. Sorry about that!

But the fact that there have been so many reincarnations of the club, I think, supports one of my points ... volunteers and sponsors come and go, cultures change, etc., and that happens at all clubs, which makes sustainability a problem.

Right now, the sponsor you have, people on board, energy, culture, etc., should have a lot of clubs green with envy. What you are doing with juniors is the right example, so don't think I am bagging Moorebank ... 3 or so years in, and you guys seem to be hitting your planned targets, much of that is because you are prepared to cooperate with other clubs. Engaging those junior clubs will also ensure that you have successors for your volunteers, who will then share your culture and future goals = sustainability.

If more clubs went about it that way, maybe my ideas would not be pie in the sky ... but you know how hard it is to get others to put egos in their pockets, and onto the same page!

These are just ideas, but if we keep doing the same things, nothing changes.

[tara]

If I wasnt touchy then something would be wrong, ask Pace, Junior/Oscar, Pekay,Gull,Hawknik,shotties,Shearer,Trust etc etc and you will find we all get touchy form time to time.

Also what you say is fair but , Blues-Roos-Blues/ Tigers-Demons /Jets-Saints/ Whales-Dogs/ Sharks-Power/Saints-crows-Saints/Blues-Power?-Cats/Falcons-Eagles/Kookas-Warriors/Cats-Rams/ etc etc.

Seems to be a bit of precedence in Sydney everywhere for reincarnations (or name changes). But thanks for what you have said, if you have nothing to do we are always looking for forward thinking people who are prepared to get their hands dirty.

[Mug Punter]

[Imagine a Moorebank/'town/Camden "Super Club" with merged resources and common goals ... building strong loyal junior links, sponsorship arrangements, focused coaching philosophies, and then duplicating those structures with similar clubs in other regions!

Imagine the entire South West area of Sydney, the fastest growing area of Sydney only having ONE club where kids can go and play footy...

I can imagine exactly what will happen. Initially it will be a stronger club, probably it will even win a few flags. But it will immediately it will lose many members of those clubs as their club's identity is lost into some merged "super club". People will have to travel further and basically "things will not be the same" and loyal members will drift off and find other things to do. Ask Tara how many of the Bankstown fellas went to SWS and how many just stopped playing or supporting the game?

A good eaxample is UNSW/Easts. A pea-brained idea if ever there was one. Look at them now, it's a fair bet they'll be the next Balmain with virtually all their grades struggling. Sell off over 100 years of history. How do the old blokes from Easts fancy trekking out to Kensington to watch a club that UNSW has taken over? Do they still feel part of it? - some probably some do but I reckon they lost heaps of loyal supporters when they did that. UTS have filled the breach to an extent but their success kind if shows what an idiotic idea that experiment was....

Mergers, unless one of the clubs is on its knees which means it is a takeover, very very rarely work.

The idea of rationalisation when we have a riduculously low base of brass-roots coverage is just insane.


[How to grow the code? LESS SENIOR CLUBS!
Very strong contender for dumbest post of the year. Growing a game by killing of it's member clubs. Totally ridiculous

[unconfuseme]

No, you are right ... Balmain and Town are just fine - their "tradition" will continue!:rolleyes:

[Junior]

UNI/ECE paying kids $200/500 per week.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! One of your best!

[beameup]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! One of your best!

Bit like the young blokes from Central Coast going to ECE and Uni. Karafilius is about the only one with many many going to Penno going back to Scott Reed and several at the moment to my personal knowledge. Never mind the principle remains that why should teenage unpaid players be dictated to as to where they can play footy

[Junior]

Bit like the young blokes from Central Coast going to ECE and Uni. Karafilius is about the only one with many many going to Penno going back to Scott Reed and several at the moment to my personal knowledge. Never mind the principle remains that why should teenage unpaid players be dictated to as to where they can play footy

And Karafilis approached ECE because he just loves WCE and wanted to play in an Eagles jumper.

[DLH]

Cats-Rams

We've always been the Rams Colesy, just wore Cats jumpers for a long time :D

[Steamboat]

Before you all get on and whinge about possible forfeits this weekend, i will give you the heads up.

We started with 24 players due to not being able to get any kids from pathway list, do not blame anyone not wanting to travel from blue mountains,emu plains or Penrith to C Town, particularly when parents are the ones mostly relied upon for transport.Out of the 24, 3 are regular 1st graders, 6 are u16s who play for us in the morning and then back up for their own age group 2 hrs later, and 8 of them have never played the game before.

We have started 4 of our last 5 games with 16 players and completed them with 14 or less at the end of the game, during these games we have had 2 major knee injuries, 2 bad concussions that required the players to have no contact sport for 6 weeks and on the weekend had another player break his collarbone in 3 places, all this to do the right thing and provide kids with a game of football.

We now have only 11 fit & eligible players for this weeks game, as u16s no longer want to cop the losses and play 2 games back to back, in their wisdom the league have redrawn the remainder of the u18s season after Balmains demise and we have now lost our remaining few Sunday games that have been rescheduled for away games on Saturday which means that the u16s that would have played will now not be able to.

And whether you like Campbelltown or not, whether you sympathise or want to stick the knife in, their is such a thing as duty of care, it is very hard watching 16 players run around each week, getting walloped both on the scoreboard and physically drained by the 3rd qtr and end up injured all in the name of fielding a side.

The area has 2 junior clubs feeding into CTown, one of which is being propped up by u14s players, nothing is getting any better in fact it is going the other way, coaching staff & committee have done what they can to try and get players to register with absolutely no result.Start your pot shots boys.

[ShortHalfHead]

No pot shots here, but when you are starting out with a squad of 24, you are in immediate trouble. Especially that three of the team are expected to play seniors and another six were playing 16's. Think it was mentioned a few times last year what should have been done in these cases. I don't know if it was ego's involved to stay in PC, but there were plenty of opportunities up till round one to ask the league to drop to Challenge where you would have been a bit more competitive and kids may have stuck around. I suspect that the league will be looking strongly at the format for 2011 and wont be automatically aligning PC with PD clubs. Having two Under 16's teams does make it hard, but other clubs are in the same boat (Penrith draws from 3). Now is the ideal time to start working and building relationships with those clubs and should be looking at fielding a side in Challenge for next year.

[JAYEFBE]

The AFL started spending truckloads of cash on auskick programs over 10 years ago. I guess their intended result would be to have a generation of AFL interested youth flowing through the ranks to seniors. Well I gues all those kids should be around 14-18 now? So the question needs to be asked, where are they all, and where is the wave of extra teams in the age groups below? FAIL?