Wanted... A Forward Line

[aardvark]

Until we get a forward line that doesn't include Goodes at CHF and White at FF we will not beat anyone decent. Get rid of the part timers and rotating midfielders and get some specialist forwards who can do their job. Goodes must play in the midfield and White needs to go back to basketball.

[UglyDuckling]

we need genuine forwards not mids playing forward. bird was deplorable forward tonight. Goodes immediately showed how much better he is in the midfield.

need to bring in tdl and vez to play alongside mcglynn, bradshaw and rohan

[dimelb]

I prefer Goodes in the midfield. White can stay - he works hard and that was a good opportunist goal tonight, the sort of thing you like to see a big man doing. The forward we are missing atm (apart from Bradshaw of course, who would've made a difference) is Moore.
And I think TDL has earned a go.

[aardvark]

I prefer Goodes in the midfield. White can stay - he works hard and that was a good opportunist goal tonight, the sort of thing you like to see a big man doing. The forward we are missing atm (apart from Bradshaw of course, who would've made a difference) is Moore.
And I think TDL has earned a go.

White has hands of stone and no idea when or where to lead or how to position himself. Opportunist = fluke

[Margie]

Why does White seem to shut his eyes/turn his head when attempting a mark? Strange. He bumbles too much to be a full forward. Let's hope Bradshaw is back for the next game.

I agree with the OP, we need a forward line. A couple of players who can take contested marks and a rover or two to mop up when they don't.

[ugg]

Swap goodes with ROK
Out bird (sorry but you're a midfielder) in tdl
Out jetta in vez to play a lead up role
Bradshaw back in white skating on thin ice

5 man forward line
Vesz ROK hanners/Kennedy
Tdl Bradshaw

[aardvark]

Swap goodes with ROK
Out bird (sorry but you're a midfielder) in tdl
Out jetta in vez to play a lead up role
Bradshaw back in white skating on thin ice

5 man forward line
Vesz ROK hanners/Kennedy
Tdl Bradshaw

Excellent... At last some sense... couldn't be any worse than what we have at the moment and we might even get some good delivery from goodsy in the midfield

[Captain]

I'm looking forward to the 'White had a good game because he brought the ball to ground' posts.

[aardvark]

I'm looking forward to the 'White had a good game because he brought the ball to ground' posts.

Yep i'm putting on my flame suit once again

[IrishSwanPerth]

jesse white wouldnt catch a flew he is shocking cant mark over his head and takes for ever to take the ball off the ground. Id rather have Bevan up there at least he can compete and kick and take a mark. I say bring back BAZZA

[Beaussie]

Jesse always looks half hearted in a contested situation to me. @#%# him off to the reserves. Waste of space on the field.

[giant]

Yep i'm putting on my flame suit once again

Can't do it. Actually went back and watched a replay of the BOmbers game and decided his game wasn't as impressive as I first thought. His game tonight was just dreadful. We do need to have a Plan B in case he's not the messiah, so I'm beginning to think that if Bradshaw comes back in it's time for him to remember how to mark the ball in the magoos.

[aardvark]

I'm actually thinking Henry is a better option at CHF than goodsy...thats how bad the Forward line is functioning or not functioning as the case maybe.
I would like to see Moore,Braddy ,Vez and TDL but we would have to drop some midfielders and i can't see Roosy doing that

[Xie Shan]

Well, to be fair, our style of game doesn't really suit marking forwards at the best of times with the way the ball is delivered in, and Jesse still has a lot of improvement to do in terms of reading the play, but yes tonight was dreadful. Bradshaw will help take some of the pressure off White next week.

[BSA5]

I want White in the backline. He's big enough, strong enough, fast enough, smart enough and skilled enough to be an AFL player, but he hasn't got the hands for key forward. Play him on a gorilla, release Grundy a bit more, and restructure the forwardline.

[hammo]

White is useless. Probably the most ineffective key forward in the AFL. Can't mark and can't get it off the ground = a forward who can't even get the ball.

Needs to spend the rest of the year in the reserves to develop his game. TDL or Johnston are far better options.

[liz]

I am not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg. But I struggle to recall one ball hitting our forwards on the lead tonight. Is the ball being bombed in aimlessly on their heads because they are not working hard enough to lead? Or are they not working hard enough to lead because they know the ball will just be bombed in long on top of their heads. Both Goodes and White seem to want to play from behind and rely either on their defender misreading the flight of the ball, or the ball going over their heads so they can run onto it. White is actually a good lead when he bothers, because he is quick and his hands can sometimes be very good. But the style he played today is going to get him nowhere.

I wonder whether the "Goodes to the forward line" move was driven by our need for a tall forward or a feeling it would prolong his career. I wish they'd abandon it, at least until he can no longer run in the midfield. He was close to useless up forward tonight, but when he went onto the ball midway through the 3rd quarter (why did it take so long), he immediately sparked into action and won a couple of clearances. Even on his good days up forward he isn't really much more than a so-so forward. But we all know how he can play in the midfield.

[Bloody Hell]

White has hands of stone and no idea when or where to lead or how to position himself. Opportunist = fluke

Each game that passes he looks less and less likely. Starting to look like a #79 draft pick.

[Bloody Hell]

McGlynn ?(White/LJ)? Rohan
TDL Bradshaw Vespremi

Our goals were kicked vs Pies by - O'Keefe 3, McGlynn 2, Kirk, Bird, Shaw, Rohan, White

Though O'Keefe looked good up forward, but not sure you'd want to sacrifice him from the midfield. O'Keefe and Goodes seem to have a good chemistry together in the midfield.

CHF is the trouble position IMO. I say LJ at CHF, though it appears he's not ready, for a few reasons - but the most important being there's noone else!

I think White would be a better CHF than a FF, but he'd have to lose a fair bit of body mass. He looks most comfortable on the lead....he'd finally have to play in front anyway!

I think we'd b e more effective with 2 talls, with Rohan able to play tallish. McGlynn has a fair leap on him too.

[Nich]

I would like to see Gary play forward for a whole game. He's 7:1 in 7 games, and in most of those games he's probably spent more time in the defensive line. He's an attacking forward. Great leap, super quick, great 2nd/3rd efforts. His body isn't strong enough yet but I just think he's a creative crumbing forward that needs to be played forward for a full game. He'll kick 2+ every game I'm sure and will only get better.

[Reggi]

I'm actually thinking Henry is a better option at CHF than goodsy.

Take the beer goggles off please

[elroy67]

Each game that passes he looks less and less likely. Starting to look like a #79 draft pick.

We should be so lucky. James Hird went at pick 79...

I think White should be played on the ball more. Not as a ruckman, but as a genuine midfielder. Let him run and carry more, instead of being solely a marking target.

Rotate all of White, Goodes and O'keefe through the forward line to rest, but play a mainly small forward line with the likes of Vespremi and TDL and Jetta.

[cruiser]

I look at White now and I keep thinking Vogels.

[UglyDuckling]

After the last couple of weeks i really think white needs to go back to canberra, just for a couple of weeks, to find some form. This year he was dropped for a game, then came back and kicked 6 in 2 weeks, similarly last year he had a great end to the season after being dropped. He seems to really respond. Needs to work on his workrate.

TDL is the man to replace him, 18 goals in 3 weeks enough said
Rohan to play forward
Vezpremi to come in to play a lead up role on the flank or a crumbing small forward
O'Keefe to the hff where he was AA to provide a link to goal
Bradshaw at FF
The last forward spot you can rotate some mids

Goodes back into the midfield where he does his best work. Made an immediate impact against collingwood. The experiment has failed put him in the guts, brownlow style

In this scenario we have a much smaller forward line with only 1 genuine tall. Rohan (190) and o'keefe (188) are both mediums who will keep good defenders honest.
This forward line provides pace and skill that we havnt seen at the swans for many moons.

Last night heath shaw ran off bird the whole time making him look really poor. Enough playing mids forward all the good premiership teams have good quality small forwards. So lets start developing some.

[Legs Akimbo]

I actually feel sorry for white.

The delivery into the forward line is haphazard and poor. When we were winning earlier in the year, it was becuase White and Goodes were leading wide which opened up the corrider allowing Bradshaw to lead and get one on one with his opponent. Also opened the way for McGlynn, Kennedy, Jack et al to run into the open space and kick goals. Conversely, the ball exited our forward line last night far too easily due to a lack of forward pressure and poor workrate from the midfield to close holes.

Our current forward malaise is structural in nature. The mids seem to not have any sort of plan for forward entry. It seems this year we are playing on a lot more, which is great, but then lately they are releasing the ball into the forward line from further out rather than taking more time to work the ball in to leading forwards. The forwards are not working for each other to draw their man and create space. Leads are often token and poorly timed. Goodes is a classic for that. He said it himself that to be an effective forward he needs to run, but last night they showed several times hands on hips with Prestigiacomo at his side. It shows in that he was too often needing to take contested marks rather than uncontested marks on the long lead, being able to play on wheel around and keep the ball moving. Also doesn't help that he is continually leading under the ball and missing the mark,

White has clearly lost confidence and is not playing well one-on-one. I am a big fan, but agree that the time has come for him to return to the reserves and get some confidence up. That's what happened last year - kicked bags in two reserves games and then came back looking a million bucks for the later part of the season. At present he is 'faux' leading, symptomatic of him not really wanting the ball.

Who is our forward coach. Think it might be time to get a new one.

[Donners]

Was it only the start of the season that Veszpremi and White were going to be key parts of our forward line? One can't make the side, the other is there but he may as well not be.

[liz]

but then lately they are releasing the ball into the forward line from further out rather than taking more time to work the ball in to leading forwards. The forwards are not working for each other to draw their man and create space. Leads are often token and poorly timed.

I think that is key at the moment. When we were often lauded as having not the best, but close to the most efficient, forward line, back in 2003-6 (and especially 2006-5) it was because we were getting the ball to the 60m out spot and then pinpointing passes to a leading player, even in congestion. Now we're bombing in from 20-30m further out and it is completely haphazard.


Who is our forward coach. Think it might be time to get a new one.

We do have a pretty good one, based on past history. Just that he's not coaching the forwards anymore. Maybe the last 10 weeks of his senior coach apprenticeship can usefully be spent on some intensive forward structure coaching. It will only hold him in good stead for next year.

[dimelb]

I actually feel sorry for white.

The delivery into the forward line is haphazard and poor. When we were winning earlier in the year, it was becuase White and Goodes were leading wide which opened up the corrider allowing Bradshaw to lead and get one on one with his opponent. Also opened the way for McGlynn, Kennedy, Jack et al to run into the open space and kick goals. Conversely, the ball exited our forward line last night far too easily due to a lack of forward pressure and poor workrate from the midfield to close holes.

Our current forward malaise is structural in nature. The mids seem to not have any sort of plan for forward entry. It seems this year we are playing on a lot more, which is great, but then lately they are releasing the ball into the forward line from further out rather than taking more time to work the ball in to leading forwards. The forwards are not working for each other to draw their man and create space. Leads are often token and poorly timed. Goodes is a classic for that. He said it himself that to be an effective forward he needs to run, but last night they showed several times hands on hips with Prestigiacomo at his side. It shows in that he was too often needing to take contested marks rather than uncontested marks on the long lead, being able to play on wheel around and keep the ball moving. Also doesn't help that he is continually leading under the ball and missing the mark,

White has clearly lost confidence and is not playing well one-on-one. I am a big fan, but agree that the time has come for him to return to the reserves and get some confidence up. That's what happened last year - kicked bags in two reserves games and then came back looking a million bucks for the later part of the season. At present he is 'faux' leading, symptomatic of him not really wanting the ball.

Who is our forward coach. Think it might be time to get a new one.
You'd think Longmire would have a few clues.
Otherwise I agree it is a mental thing with White. We know what he can do - they keep replaying that hanger in ads - but we'd like to see him doing more of it.

[ugg]

Pretty sure Blakey is the forwards coach

[Legs Akimbo]

Pretty sure Blakey is the forwards coach

Blakey was a fine BACKMAN for two clubs.

[liz]

Blakey was a fine BACKMAN for two clubs.

Means he played amidst lots of forward lines!

[dimelb]

Means he played amidst lots of forward lines!
And you'd hope that would mean he knows how forwards ought to play, but I wonder.

[rojo]

I am left wondering why there was no forward line plan in place for the exit of Mickey O and Baz. Jesse, who has had little senior game experience alongside Goodsey and that was it. LJ being out with injury for a year hasn't helped and TDL was only recruited at the end of last year also McGlynn. What sort of forward planning was that? Bradshaw was a bonus, not part of any long term plan.

I don't like to hear Roosy say we haven't got the personnel to compete with the likes of Collingwood as a reason for losses. The Swans have had the same recruiting opportunities as Collingwood but our team rebuilding strategies have been quite mystifying - a squillion of small midfielder types and average, top-up players from other clubs!

I too feel a bit sorry for Jesse and Adam - we bag them for failing!

[smasher]

I would like to see Gary play forward for a whole game. He's 7:1 in 7 games, and in most of those games he's probably spent more time in the defensive line. He's an attacking forward. Great leap, super quick, great 2nd/3rd efforts. His body isn't strong enough yet but I just think he's a creative crumbing forward that needs to be played forward for a full game. He'll kick 2+ every game I'm sure and will only get better.

I thought the goal he got was from a very lucky free kick,maybe a very clever one???He was almost bent in two with his head forward to get to the ball.He is a reliable kick,thank God!

[dimelb]

I thought the goal he got was from a very lucky free kick,maybe a very clever one???He was almost bent in two with his head forward to get to the ball.He is a reliable kick,thank God!
I wondered about that one, but when they replayed it I thought, Yes, head over the ball, other bloke didn't make any effort to avoid high contact, it's there. Sort of thing that if it had been the other way round I'd probably say, Well, technical, but it's there, got to adjust to rules.

[lwjoyner]

TDL for white if braddy not available and maybe into the side even is he is, Need someone to lead, Maybe time to give Johnno a game he seems to know what its about and moved well around the game last night. Vez maybe wont be available with injury.

[Legs Akimbo]

Means he played amidst lots of forward lines!

I am not sure that it works like that.

[Matty10]

I think that is key at the moment. When we were often lauded as having not the best, but close to the most efficient, forward line, back in 2003-6 (and especially 2006-5) it was because we were getting the ball to the 60m out spot and then pinpointing passes to a leading player, even in congestion. Now we're bombing in from 20-30m further out and it is completely haphazard.

I thought they tried both options against Collingwood. When the Swans players attempted to pass through the congestion inside the forward 50 we failed, as we did not have the foot skills (or the slippery conditions made the task too difficult), enough space to make it work (Collingwood zoned really well), or time without pressure (the pies chased well from behind also). I actually thought we looked more dangerous when the ball was bombed in from further out (particularly due to the conditions). The problem with that seemed to be that no-one was really willing to make a strong contest, or the tall forwards had led out and the crumbers were left to contest in the air. Either way it did not work.

Most of these 'forward' problems actually stemmed from the midfield and half-back. We really needed someone to play as a strong lead-up CHF to take the pressure off our rebound players, draw a defender out, and create a focal point for our running brigade to stream from - and then put the ball into our forward 50.

Regardless of how many on here might disagree, Playfair would actually help the structure of our forward line - particularly if we are breaking down between half-back and half-forward. He is a big body who takes a big defender and he leads up well. Even if he played deep, it would allow Goodes or White to play further up in a similar role.

In fact, if Bradshaw was back in I would still play him (Playfair) at CHF and put Goodes into the middle.

[ShockOfHair]

I think the biggest single thing is Goodes' form. He's our best player and supposed to be our key forward in the absence of Bradshaw, but if he's not firing we don't have a main target. When we went forward we were slow and hesitant because of our lack of targets. Plus the Pies guarded space pretty well and as posted earlier I'm not sure how Bird allowed Heath Shaw to do as he liked in our forward line.

As for the White situation:confused: .Our only other option for tall forwards is Henry P., which doesn't fill my heart with song.

I'm taking solace in the long view. In a year's time we should have White with one more year's experience and, who knows, maybe having undergone a J. Reiwolt-like transformation. Plus LJ and TDL should be starting to find their feet.

I wouldn't put too much stock in Bradshaw's knees though.

[Hartijon]

I am not sure that it works like that.
It doesn't! In fact the opposite is usually true.As a backman you can take on the forwards (like Scarlett,O'Brien)
but you better be good.Good forwards with goal sense will make you pay for any mistake.Mc Glynne sems to have goal sense.People are still wanting Jetta near the goals after 15 points straight. Crazy IMO,if you play him keep him away from the goals.White,Goodes are KPP's in the forwards who are an attempt to make a forward.I am of the old school that doesn't believe u can do this.I believe and have said on here before that we shouldbe developing our natural forwards .We will get far more out of this than trying to create a forward line from non natural forward players. So I would have developed LJ,TDL,Vespa and I fail to see how we would have done any worse.For some strange reason forwards often have an individualistic streak and prima donna behaviour. I would also "wear that" as it goes with the territory.Those who say Playfair gives a better structure are actually right but he is not the man for the job,too slow,falls over too easily and seconds too slow.Start developing LJ now! White and Goodes? It was worth a try but it didn't work.

[johnno]

Must admit, its starting to get prety difficult defending Jesse White after that performance on Saturday night....but I still think he needs to be in the 22. I'd like to think with Bradshaw next to him, he'll probably cope better.

[Nich]

Must admit, its starting to get prety difficult defending Jesse White after that performance on Saturday night....but I still think he needs to be in the 22. I'd like to think with Bradshaw next to him, he'll probably cope better.

It is damn frustrating though. Can hardly a remember a moment on Saturday night when we hit a target i50 on the chest. And after all the frustration of seeing Jesse and Adam failed to mark a contested possession, the ball would go down the other end, come in a little lower and hit a leading target. It felt like Jesse didn't even attempt to lead at all. He was happy to stand toe-to-toe and hug his opponent. He wasn't even paid a free once so what was going on. I know the delivery hasn't been great but gee, at least present yourself and make it tough for the other team.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/swans-never-in-the-picture/story-e6frexwr-1225884929117

Article suggesting Jesse, Jets and Bluey under the microscope for the next game and TDL coming in to equations. Did Roos actually say he was tempted to strongly look at TDL or is this journo just making it up?

[Mr Magoo]

Before we start worrying too much about the forward line, we need a midfield that can deliver the ball in properly. Saturday nights delivery was slow, sloppy and indirect and allowed Collingwood to cover the wholes while many of their goals were scored from quick rebound out of the centre with a pass to a leading forward about 1 metre off the ground which gave LRT and others no chance.

I agree that White is playing totally without confidence in his own ability. This guy should be able to outbody most of his opponents in a one on one and he couldnt even do it once on the night. His leading was terrible to non existent and he doesnt seem to have any nous for finding space in any sort of traffic. It was hard when you watch somone doing exactly what he should be doing up the other end (ie Dawes).

Goodes positioning for a mark is terrible. He dropped so many marks on Saturday night that were either due to running too far under the ball (a timing thing ) and one even hit him on the head.

Unfortunately the only real answer to the problem is bradshaw and he is obviously not right. I agree that the likes of TDL and Vez should be given a go but dont expect them to be difference. They are both still relatively new to this level and would be lucky to kick two goals a game at this stage.

[giant]

Let me join the TDL bandwagon. We must have a plan B and he looked super in the pre-season. Isn't it possible we've got our own JPod in the ranks?

[Young Blood]

Some have quickly forgotten White's performances last year - in particular his strong hands on the lead. He's struggled this year, and may need a break in the 2s, but to dismiss him as having no future is shortsighted.

I don't want to see ROK moved from the midfield. If the Goodes is to return to the midfield we must either play White at CHF or recall Playfair. Neither is a particularly attractive option, but may be worth a try.

I'll be surprised and disappointed if neither Vesz nor TDL gets a game against the Tigers.

[Plugger46]

We're middle of the road, simple. The forward line will function fine against teams below us because we're better than them. Collingwood is a bloody good side and stitched us up.

Do people realise that Jesse White's played about 30 games? Not too many key forwards have a significant impact with that sort of experience. He looks down on confidence and we're asking a lot of him. With the way we moved the ball on Saturday night, any forward would have struggled. If he's still at the same level in a season or two I'd be concerned but give the guy some time. As for Henry and LJ - the former shouldn't be a part of our future and the latter is a mile off being a key forward.

Has to be TDL time.

[dimelb]

Before we start worrying too much about the forward line, we need a midfield that can deliver the ball in properly. Saturday nights delivery was slow, sloppy and indirect and allowed Collingwood to cover the wholes while many of their goals were scored from quick rebound out of the centre with a pass to a leading forward about 1 metre off the ground which gave LRT and others no chance.

I agree that White is playing totally without confidence in his own ability. This guy should be able to outbody most of his opponents in a one on one and he couldnt even do it once on the night. His leading was terrible to non existent and he doesnt seem to have any nous for finding space in any sort of traffic. It was hard when you watch somone doing exactly what he should be doing up the other end (ie Dawes).

Goodes positioning for a mark is terrible. He dropped so many marks on Saturday night that were either due to running too far under the ball (a timing thing ) and one even hit him on the head.

Unfortunately the only real answer to the problem is bradshaw and he is obviously not right. I agree that the likes of TDL and Vez should be given a go but dont expect them to be difference. They are both still relatively new to this level and would be lucky to kick two goals a game at this stage.
And unfortunately they are likely to get the same lousy delivery. Didn't we do better at the start of the season? What's gone wrong?

[aardvark]

Goodes is not a kp forward now or ever. He is a midfielder.White, well you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.There is no rule book that says a FF has to be tall but they must be able to mark and kick goals.And at the moment, unless they play LJ, henry is probably our best option at chf.
Heres an idea how about we try Reg at CHF.

[Plugger46]

Heres an idea how about we try Reg at CHF.

Beacuse he's struggled up forward at senior level before and is now a quality backman.

[aardvark]

Beacuse he's struggled up forward at senior level before and is now a quality backman.

Agree, but that was before he realised he could actually play, just a thought.

[Plugger46]

Agree, but that was before he realised he could actually play, just a thought.

Fair call but I don't think we can afford to lose him down back.

[magic.merkin]

We're middle of the road, simple. The forward line will function fine against teams below us because we're better than them. Collingwood is a bloody good side and stitched us up.

Do people realise that Jesse White's played about 30 games? Not too many key forwards have a significant impact with that sort of experience. He looks down on confidence and we're asking a lot of him. With the way we moved the ball on Saturday night, any forward would have struggled. If he's still at the same level in a season or two I'd be concerned but give the guy some time. As for Henry and LJ - the former shouldn't be a part of our future and the latter is a mile off being a key forward.

Has to be TDL time.

EXACTLY!

We failed to rebound off our half back line, our midfield was beaten for clearances and struggled delivering the ball cleanly into the F50. The forwards can for the majority of the time only deal with what they are given. Clearly White has to stay home so if the ball is being kicked in short or poorly he is severly limited to having an fair crack at it. Goodes needs to be doing better with what opportuinites he is given, but in saying that I think he should still be in the midfield. And if he isnt then when they are being beaten and he's barely getting near it make the change SOONER.

Bird shouldnt have played if he wasnt to be in the midfield.

And if we are trailing our opponents to the ball consistently then we are going to lose. They just lead up and marked with ease all the way up the side of the ground all night. We tried and had a man a foot off us.

[Dalai Lama]

Put the Rhesus Monkey up forward - he can then run into the open and spray it - aka Hawks game MCG?

[Hartijon]

What was uncanny about Collingwood watching them play,they seem to have the type of players we are trying to develop.How was Dawes??? Exactly what Jesse White should be like.! Thomas ,a link player that Jetta should be with pace to burn. O'Brien and Shaw did better rebounding than our half backs. We don't seem to have a Didak ,probably would not pass our "no dick heads" policy. Malthouse seems to have strict team structures yet allows flair. Compare their kick outs to ours. In many ways it was not shameful to lose,it was the pathetic way we lost irks me.

[sWAns63]

What was uncanny about Collingwood watching them play,they seem to have the type of players we are trying to develop.How was Dawes??? Exactly what Jesse White should be like.! Thomas ,a link player that Jetta should be with pace to burn. O'Brien and Shaw did better rebounding than our half backs. We don't seem to have a Didak ,probably would not pass our "no dick heads" policy. Malthouse seems to have strict team structures yet allows flair. Compare their kick outs to ours. In many ways it was not shameful to lose,it was the pathetic way we lost irks me.

We certainly lost an oppurtunity to try a different structure hope we don't do the same against Geelong

[Hartijon]

Why is there no analysis of why the midfield misses their marks whereas Colling wood hit the mark nearly every time? Are they simply better kicks? I don't think so. Forwards need to present but in a way that midfields can see clearly where to place the ball. Just racing straight up the ground gives the deliverer a high downside to his kick. If he doesn't hit thechest,its a turnover. Sideways movement is essential and then (like Collingwood) you can kick the ball to the natural left or right side of the forward. This both lowers the risk of turnover if the mark spills and makes it harder for the backman to spoil. This skill is coachable,Collingwood did it,we didn't! I feel,as others have already suggested ,we need a new forward coach.

[Wazza]

Why is there no analysis of why the midfield misses their marks whereas Colling wood hit the mark nearly every time? Are they simply better kicks? I don't think so. Forwards need to present but in a way that midfields can see clearly where to place the ball. Just racing straight up the ground gives the deliverer a high downside to his kick. If he doesn't hit thechest,its a turnover. Sideways movement is essential and then (like Collingwood) you can kick the ball to the natural left or right side of the forward. This both lowers the risk of turnover if the mark spills and makes it harder for the backman to spoil. This skill is coachable,Collingwood did it,we didn't! I feel,as others have already suggested ,we need a new forward coach.

Its not just the pass its how well the lead is made, timing confidence etc then you have to consider zoning a sweeper coming across etc I dont always blame the MF our FWDs have to lead with conviction and not just wave a hand in the air - kick it to me...inside fwd 50 is a very specialised area.

Watching Jesse pretty close this year and IMHO he isnt timing his leads and when he does lead it is with no confidence or conviction. This in turn lowers the confidence of our guys when seeing him on a half hearted lead they dont really want to go to him. Worse is when Jesse and Goodes both stand deep and wave their arms saying kick it deep to me.... useless. I think we can persist with Jesse but we need a fast /strong leading forward maybe LJ or TDL?? I have not seen either play but a couple of you guys who watch the ressies have mentioned how well
both guys move - would either of these two fit the bill?? Bradshaw back will make a difference but probably time to try TDL or LJ. I like the suggestion of trying Jesse down back - he doesnt get outmarked to often and it might suit him being lead to the contest.

Cheers

Waz

[wearebloods]

Surprised the absence of Moore hasn't got a mention.

For sure we've missed Bradshaw & McGlynn up forward, but the lovely RWO stats (http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/?pageid=stats&year=2010) page also indicate that up until Moore finally succumbed to his ankle injury in Round 7, he had 13 goal assists to his name. If he had continued on that trajectory, it's pretty likely he would be topping the goal assists charts.

Moore's intelligence, tenacity & leadership shouldn't be wasted in the Reserves, if he's fit enough to play out a game, he should come back into the side.

[Hartijon]

Its not just the pass its how well the lead is made, timing confidence etc then you have to consider zoning a sweeper coming across etc I dont always blame the MF our FWDs have to lead with conviction and not just wave a hand in the air - kick it to me...inside fwd 50 is a very specialised area.

Watching Jesse pretty close this year and IMHO he isnt timing his leads and when he does lead it is with no confidence or conviction. This in turn lowers the confidence of our guys when seeing him on a half hearted lead they dont really want to go to him. Worse is when Jesse and Goodes both stand deep and wave their arms saying kick it deep to me.... useless. I think we can persist with Jesse but we need a fast /strong leading forward maybe LJ or TDL?? I have not seen either play but a couple of you guys who watch the ressies have mentioned how well
both guys move - would either of these two fit the bill?? Bradshaw back will make a difference but probably time to try TDL or LJ. I like the suggestion of trying Jesse down back - he doesnt get outmarked to often and it might suit him being lead to the contest.

Cheers

WazI agree with all your points and your analysis of our current problems. I would just say that if you can't lead,your can't play as a forward! Bazza,even at his worst,led and led and led,getting incresingly frustrated all the time!

[rojo]

It is damn frustrating though. Can hardly a remember a moment on Saturday night when we hit a target i50 on the chest. And after all the frustration of seeing Jesse and Adam failed to mark a contested possession, the ball would go down the other end, come in a little lower and hit a leading target. It felt like Jesse didn't even attempt to lead at all. He was happy to stand toe-to-toe and hug his opponent. He wasn't even paid a free once so what was going on. I know the delivery hasn't been great but gee, at least present yourself and make it tough for the other team.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/swans-never-in-the-picture/story-e6frexwr-1225884929117
Article suggesting Jesse, Jets and Bluey under the microscope for the next game and TDL coming in to equations. Did Roos actually say he was tempted to strongly look at TDL or is this journo just making it up?

Curious that Jesse, Jets and Rohan are singled out. True, they may all benefit from a few games back in the ressies without the intense pressure and it would give an opportunity for TDL and Vez in particular to get a game in the seniors. But it reads as though they were the only ones who where not up to scratch.

[Nich]

Attack needs a re-think, admits Roos - Official AFL Website of the Sydney Swans Football Club (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7106/newsid/97052/default.aspx)

Looks like Jesse is going back to the 2's to have a think about things!

[sWAns63]

Maybe TDL will get a gig this week, yipee! hope he kicks a few goals

[aardvark]

Attack needs a re-think, admits Roos - Official AFL Website of the Sydney Swans Football Club (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7106/newsid/97052/default.aspx)

Looks like Jesse is going back to the 2's to have a think about things!

Hallelujah

[707]

Just rewatched the painful game from Saturday night and here's what I think. A great contrast between the two sides.

Kick ins were terrible, just bomb and hope.

Half backs/midfield dithered too long with the ball and once Collingwood flooded back we couldn't hit a target going forward.

Goodes is badly off song. Hands up those amongst you that thought before the game that Presti would win that battle? Thought so, no one.

Bird is not a half forward, he's a midfield grunt and should be used as such. I couldn't tell if Bird was playing on Heath Shaw such was the latitude Shaw was given.

We rarely had a player in space as we went forward due I think to the slow build up.

All of these things make it look like the forward line isn't functioning.

Look at Collingwood - moved the ball quickly, found plenty of free runners and delivered the ball with precision to leading forwards. Our backs had little chance of defending those entries.

So do we now accep that we can't do damage IF we make the finals and therefore start to plan for next year? Not sure who is putting their hand up in the ressies but I feel that a specialist small forward is a must so TDL has to be given an extended senior run. Is it time to test the water with sticky fingered Johnston? Should Merediths silky skills make a reappearance in the midfield? If Brashaw comes back in does Goodes go into the midfield rotation again with resting cameos deep forward?

Lets just make some changes and see if they work against Richmond but our season may be over already if we can't fix things really quickly.

[Reggi]

Just rewatched the painful game from Saturday night and here's what I think.

.

Did you lose a bet. Was it like lying on a bed of nails

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Heres an idea how about we try Reg at CHF.

Peter just called. He asks that you kindly stop stealing from him, no matter how badly Paul needs the money.

[aardvark]

Peter just called. He asks that you kindly stop stealing from him, no matter how badly Paul needs the money.

Maybe we could trade half a dozen slightly used midfielders for 2 decent key position players. Bring on the Mid season draft i think.

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Just out of curiosity, which mids would you trade?

[Lucky Knickers]

Re resting Rohan I think that's just not wanting to exhaust him and let's be honest we definitely want him at his fit and feisty best for finals (even if we are making up the numbers).
The Goodes experiment doesn't work when he is the only viable target option against the better opponents. He is getting doubled and tripled team and they block his space on the lead which is where is strongest.
It will be good to see the coaches try some other players. We have been very lucky with getting to see Rohan and Jetta so time to roll in a couple more.
Is Meredith a shot?

[UglyDuckling]

I just re-watched the game and while i concede that our forward line was up to standard the ball movement really didnt help. When we did move the ball quickly we got so excited that when we got to 80m from goal we just bombed it in, allowing collingwood defenders to get infront. The other times we moved it quickly the final kick inside was sprayed.
Credit to collingwoods back they really got across and helped each other.

When we moved the ball slowly we were just no chance, collingwood constantly pushed players back. OUr big boys couldnt mark and we had no one to crumb the goals.

My remedy Bradshaw, Vezzy, TDL, McGlynn, Rohan and O'Keefe while Goodes goes back to the midfield. This forward line is much quicker than we have had in a long time and could cause some problems for opposition backlines.

[liz]

Is Meredith a shot?

I'll qualify my statement by the fact I've not seen the reserves for the past couple of months until this weekend - same boat as most other reserves watchers here. But to me, he doesn't look quite ready fitness wise. He was probably the reserves player on Saturday who played the most consistent four quarter game, and he played pretty much the whole game on-ball. So I am not suggesting his fitness base is a long way off. But he didn't seem to be moving as smoothly as I've seen him move in the past, and on several occasions he seemed to rush things, leading to a handful of ordinary mistakes, even for this level. He's missed a lotta lotta football over the past two and a half years so it is to be expected that he will take a bit of time. Maybe later in the year?

In the meantime we have MOD and Vez who were a little stiff to get dropped after just one senior game, plus TDL knocking down the door. I'd bring one or more of them in at the moment, ahead of Meredith.

[Lucky Knickers]

Thanks Liz, it's good to hear Meredith played well. Hopefully see him back soon.
I am feeling very positive about our season and think any chances the youngsters get is good. We need to experiment.

[Peace]

White definitely needs a spell in the reserves, he is young and clearly his mind is limiting his game, needs to take a few weeks to get over the wall that is in front of him.

[aardvark]

Just out of curiosity, which mids would you trade?

Remembering this is purely hypothetical.... Keep Hannebury, McVeigh, Kennedy, McGlynn, Smith, Jack, Jetta and i think Rohan may spend time in the mid in the future. Trade..kirk+ bolton first, they may help someone else win a premiership this year, then ROK, his time as a midfielder is limited, probably should go back to hf permanently although his ego demands he get time in the midfield. If Goodes cannot play in the midfield any more im not sure he is much use to us. Bird may struggle for a game in the Mid in 12 Mths time when the youngies develop so he could go too.
So mostly the oldies but it would depend on which KP players were available for trade.
WE really are in need of a CHF and another tall backman as it looks like B2 may be finished.

[Bloody Hell]

Remembering this is purely hypothetical.... Keep Hannebury, McVeigh, Kennedy, McGlynn, Smith, Jack, Jetta and i think Rohan may spend time in the mid in the future. Trade..kirk+ bolton first, they may help someone else win a premiership this year, then ROK, his time as a midfielder is limited, probably should go back to hf permanently although his ego demands he get time in the midfield. If Goodes cannot play in the midfield any more im not sure he is much use to us. Bird may struggle for a game in the Mid in 12 Mths time when the youngies develop so he could go too.
So mostly the oldies but it would depend on which KP players were available for trade.
WE really are in need of a CHF and another tall backman as it looks like B2 may be finished.
How to lose all credibility in one post - by aardvark.

[aardvark]

How to lose all credibility in one post - by aardvark.
He he i expected that. I'm only playing devils advocate here...
I was talking hypothetically if a mid season draft was available and yes i knew i'd cop it. but consider for a moment that we have only one KP ressie pushing for selection,LJ. Goodes near the end and B2 near the end and White who is struggling and Braddy who is a week to week proposition .
So that leaves us with Key position players LRT, Reg, Henry, Ted, and..........
Unless we want to play 20 midfielders every week where are our KP players coming from? The top 4 sides are all very strong down the spine. Thats why they are top 4 sides.
Its also unlikely we will be able to draft ready replacement for at least another 2 years.

[aardvark]

If you ran the club and another club was prepared to trade you a fringe young CHB and CHF with the potential to be 10 year players, similar to the Mumford situation, this week for Kirk and B1 wouldn't you consider it?

[liz]

If you ran the club and another club was prepared to trade you a fringe young CHB and CHF with the potential to be 10 year players, similar to the Mumford situation, this week for Kirk and B1 wouldn't you consider it?

Putting aside the fact there is no mid-season trade process, which clubs do you honestly think would trade for Kirk or Bolton? Much as we love Kirk and what he has done for his club, his ball winning ability has declined noticeably this year. He has done some decent shut down roles but less consistently than in the past. Which contender would he add anything to? He certainly wouldn't be pushing Ling or Jones out of the number one tagging role at the Cats or Saints.

Similarly, there is no way the current Jude would find himself in the midfield of any of the top half dozen sides. He can still turn it on at times - like against the Bombers a couple of weeks back - but he does it nowhere near consistently enough for a current contender.

We love them both in their own ways. They still have something to offer the Sydney team in 2010 (and Jude maybe for another year or two) given the rest of our in-and-under mids are pretty young. But you're in cloud cuckoo land if you think another club would trade even a half-decent KPP prospect for one of them.

There is close to no similarity with the trade for Mumford for pick 28, a player who the Cats didn't even want to trade but had little choice.

And even if your hypothetical situation did exist, would you really feel comfortable with shunting out a player like Kirk, who has bled for the club, in his last 3 months at the place? I know I would hate it.

[laughingnome]

White definitely needs a spell in the reserves, he is young and clearly his mind is limiting his game, needs to take a few weeks to get over the wall that is in front of him.

The more I watch of him the more I'm convinced he doesn't like leading. He wants the mids to bomb it in long so he can take a screamer 20-out and in front. Sure, it looks nice the couple of times it works but so many opportunities are wasted by the ease at which defenders deflect the ball away and then run up the field.

I don't know if this is because he's a ruckman-cum-forward who's initial instruction was probably just that (though it can't possibly be now as a KPP) or if he's just lazy, but some time in the Ressies hsould at least give him some confidance in what the hell he's doing.

[aardvark]

And even if your hypothetical situation did exist, would you really feel comfortable with shunting out a player like Kirk, who has bled for the club, in his last 3 months at the place? I know I would hate it.

No Liz i dislike the idea immensely. I think loyalty to our players is one thing that makes our game so much better than any other yet Ablett will go to GC, and limited free agency will come in and mid season drafts will return in some form because its a business now more than a game. Just like NBA and Soccer,much is the shame.

I am still interested to know where people see our future "Spine" coming from because it worries me a lot. We could be in for a few rough years again.

[smasher]

Surprised the absence of Moore hasn't got a mention.

For sure we've missed Bradshaw & McGlynn up forward, but the lovely RWO stats (http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/?pageid=stats&year=2010) page also indicate that up until Moore finally succumbed to his ankle injury in Round 7, he had 13 goal assists to his name. If he had continued on that trajectory, it's pretty likely he would be topping the goal assists charts.

Moore's intelligence, tenacity & leadership shouldn't be wasted in the Reserves, if he's fit enough to play out a game, he should come back into the side.


I agree.Moore puts on defensive pressure and can take a grab.

[Captain]

Similarly, there is no way the current Jude would find himself in the midfield of any of the top half dozen sides. He can still turn it on at times - like against the Bombers a couple of weeks back - but he does it nowhere near consistently enough for a current contender.

Probably better saying that the top half dozen sides wouldn't trade for him.

If they got him for free, Jude would easily get a gig at Collingwood, Fremantle, Dogs and potentially St Kilda.

[ScottH]

Put the Rhesus Monkey up forward - he can then run into the open and spray it - aka Hawks game MCG?

Wasn't exactly that easy. Plenty of pressure on at the time.


Roos to change forward line (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/roos-to-change-forward-line-20100628-zexp.html)


Good and bad news here.


Roos told AAP on Monday Bradshaw's knee was improving, and along with Irishman Tadhg Kennelly, would be checked after running at training on Wednesday.

Irrespective of whether Bradshaw plays against Richmond at the MCG on Sunday, Roos flagged changes to his forward line.

Strong marking but inconsistent youngster Jesse White will be heading back to the reserves.
...

Among the contenders for promotion are rookie Trent Dennis-Lane - who kicked seven goals in the reserves last weekend - and Henry Playfair, who landed five majors.

[Melbournehammer]

[QUOTE=707;493790]Just rewatched the painful game from Saturday night and here's what I think. A great contrast between the two sides.



Goodes is badly off song. Hands up those amongst you that thought before the game that Presti would win that battle? Thought so, no one.

i did -which kpp backman has goodes beaten ?

[dimelb]

I agree.Moore puts on defensive pressure and can take a grab.
And he is a handball wizard.

[RogueSwan]

If only Seaby hadn't broken his ankle.... (I could also add in "If Bradshaw didn't have a bung knee" :p)
I reckon he would have been good for a couple of goals a game resting in the F50. This would have taken another defender away from either Goodes or White and our Fwds could be that much better.
This was something significant we lost when Jolly moved on. I am glad we have Mummy and the way he plays around the ground, but he is not (yet) a threat around goals.

[Jewels]

If only Seaby hadn't broken his ankle.... (I could also add in "If Bradshaw didn't have a bung knee" :p)
I reckon he would have been good for a couple of goals a game resting in the F50. This would have taken another defender away from either Goodes or White and our Fwds could be that much better.
This was something significant we lost when Jolly moved on. I am glad we have Mummy and the way he plays around the ground, but he is not (yet) a threat around goals.

Not to mention he would also be good for a few effective possesions around the ground.

[RogueSwan]

And he is a handball wizard.

There's got to be a twist
A handball wizard
He's got such a supple wrist (ankle?)
...
That short, slow and solid kid
Sure plays a mean football

[Nich]

There's got to be a twist
A handball wizard
He's got such a supple wrist (ankle?)
...
That short, slow and solid kid
Sure plays a mean football

(clap)

[Triple B]

There's got to be a twist
A handball wizard
He's got such a supple wrist (ankle?)
...
That short, slow and solid kid
Sure plays a mean football

Who ??

[Hartijon]

I am really enjoying this thread because its been a long time coming!!! I have believed for a long time that our forward line is contrived and not a serious long term proposition.I have criticised our forward line for some time. Our backline,midfield and ruck are generally ok.
Hence I have supported trialling genuine forwards by that i mean players who have GOAL sense and KNOW how to find a free space.McGlynn is a very good example of this type of player. Instead,the selectors and obviously the coaches too have gone ahead with a makeshift forward line even though we know that Bradshaw,even if fit, will only be a 2-3 year prospect at the limit. White is a ruckman we are trying to turn into a forward while Goodes is a great midfielder who seems to get lost and go missing in the forwards.Jetta can't kick straight and the rest are basically rotating midfielders with the exception of Moore who we have missed. I believe this year is a rebuilding year,we won't make the Grandfinal! and I believe we have squandered opportunities to try new players and new strategies. If saying this makes me sound negative so be it,in actual fact i am suggesting positive changes. I am looking towards a crack at another Premiership in 2012 BUT we gotta start NOW! I think a basic skill of a forward is to mark a ball and kick goals. I would therefore be playing ,players who have shown they can do this at a lower level until they can do the same at a higher level. Whether they are "ready" "too young" etc are all subjective judgements that we don't know the truth of until we trial them. I would therefore have played TDL for at least 4 games by now. LJ would also have got a few games,maybe there may also be a potential star there somewhere? a Posiadly?(Would we have played him if we had him?) In this interim period ,and with injuries, we obviously need some makeshift players but we have missed an opportunity to both blood new players and to experiment. We will never know if some other combinations might have worked. eg using a KPP from defense (Grundy,LRT) Instead,we perservered with Playfair,Goodes and White and White is the only one with upside who perhaps might make a forward. Great to have this thread...the forward line which looked so good on paper has turned out to be as thin as paper.

[RogueSwan]

Aww, poor Goodesy.
Doesn't he have a history of being poor in the first half of the season then come back in the second half? He will now average 3.5 goals for the next nine rounds!


Maybe :confused:

[dimelb]

Who ??
Post #85.

[Triple B]

Post #85.

:rofl

[RogueSwan]

Who ??


Post #85.


:rofl

Do you think it went over Di's head? :)

[dimelb]

Do you think it went over Di's head? :)
Perhaps I should've just said Yeah!

[chuckie]

Although White is not really a second year player he is playing like one.
What I mean by this is that a lot of players that play well in their first year struggle the second due to the opposition being a lot more aware of who they are also they can get a big head.
I also think that a lot of our players when they go to deliver the ball don't either raise or lower their eyes, so many times a player might be in the clear 50 metres up the ground but we will kick it 20 metres to a player under pressure becaue we haven't lifted our eyes and all we see is whats just in front of us and vice versa i think if they did this we would be able to move the ball a lot more quicker.

[RogueSwan]

Perhaps I should've just said Yeah!

as long as you scream it Roger Daltrey style "yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!"(five).

Now you won't get fooled again. :rolleyes:

[dimelb]

as long as you scream it Roger Daltrey style "yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!"(five).

Now you won't get fooled again. :rolleyes:
Not really a deaf, dumb and blind kid - just a bit slow on the uptake sometimes!

[Hartijon]

as long as you scream it Roger Daltrey style "yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh!"(five).

Now you won't get fooled again. :rolleyes:

Meet the new boss,same as the old boss.

[Bloody Hell]

The more I watch of him the more I'm convinced he doesn't like leading. He wants the mids to bomb it in long so he can take a screamer 20-out and in front. Sure, it looks nice the couple of times it works but so many opportunities are wasted by the ease at which defenders deflect the ball away and then run up the field.

I don't know if this is because he's a ruckman-cum-forward who's initial instruction was probably just that (though it can't possibly be now as a KPP) or if he's just lazy, but some time in the Ressies hsould at least give him some confidance in what the hell he's doing.

He's not quick enough on the top defenders he's playing on atm. The few time I see him lead he seems to have a defender right on his shoulder.

[liz]

He's not quick enough on the top defenders he's playing on atm. The few time I see him lead he seems to have a defender right on his shoulder.

Don't agree. When he gets moving he is exceptionally quick for his height. I've seen him make leads over 20-30m and burn off opponents with ease. And there have been times when he has managed to create a goal out of nothing by outsprinting an opponent around the boundary line.

It may be a laziness issue but I suspect it is more likely that it just hasn't clicked with him how hard the good forwards work, making lead after lead after lead and accepting that most won't be rewarded. Or it could be that he is receiving crap instructions about how to be an effective forward.

[Triple B]

He's not quick enough on the top defenders he's playing on atm. The few time I see him lead he seems to have a defender right on his shoulder.

I doubt Lachie Henderson would agree he's not quick.

Jesse made him look like a tortoise when he took him on not once, but twice in Rd 22 last year. That performance may even have been the catalyst for Henderson being the 'bait' which landed Fev up north.

Jesse's problem at the moment is most definately above the shoulders, IMO. A spell in the 2's will do him the world of good.

[Triple B]

Not really a deaf, dumb and blind kid - just a bit slow on the uptake sometimes!

Nice comeback (five)

[Bloody Hell]

It may be a laziness issue but I suspect it is more likely that it just hasn't clicked with him how hard the good forwards work, making lead after lead after lead and accepting that most won't be rewarded. Or it could be that he is receiving crap instructions about how to be an effective forward.

Maybe it is this. He's unable to get the 3m break on the lead against the top forwards that he was getting last year against lesser likes. If that's the case a spell in the two's won't help. He'll go back and all his old tricks will work, he'll kick a few bags and suffer the same issues on his return. He'd probably be better served watching a hard working forward like, dare I say it, Hall for an entire game - see what it takes.

[RogueSwan]

Not really a deaf, dumb and blind kid - just a bit slow on the uptake sometimes!


Nice comeback (five)

(clap)

[Hartijon]

Maybe it is this. He's unable to get the 3m break on the lead against the top forwards that he was getting last year against lesser likes. If that's the case a spell in the two's won't help. He'll go back and all his old tricks will work, he'll kick a few bags and suffer the same issues on his return. He'd probably be better served watching a hard working forward like, dare I say it, Hall for an entire game - see what it takes.an

He leads too straight. A defender can cover a straight lead much easier than a lead that fans right or left. Because he is running straight at the ball carrier they then have problem judging where to drop the ball. Good forwards fan out, often getting the ball on a sharper angle but GETTING THE BALL. As a carrier its easy to place the ball out wide with the forward running wide to that spot. Watch Geelong,St Kilda and the Pies do this.Fevola also.Then watch Jesse..you will see the difference!
Sure if you can mark a ball like Riewoldt is currently doing you don't need to lead and it appears "hanger" Jesse took and got so much coverage for is still in his head and affecting his play.We employ coaches to fix up these kind of young player problems! What are they doing ? Looks like their solution once again is not to analyse the problem and fix it,just dump him down the 2's and let it fix itself it. I keep saying it...we are short changed in the coaching department this year!!!

[Nico]

Don't agree. When he gets moving he is exceptionally quick for his height. I've seen him make leads over 20-30m and burn off opponents with ease. And there have been times when he has managed to create a goal out of nothing by outsprinting an opponent around the boundary line.

It may be a laziness issue but I suspect it is more likely that it just hasn't clicked with him how hard the good forwards work, making lead after lead after lead and accepting that most won't be rewarded. Or it could be that he is receiving crap instructions about how to be an effective forward.

Not quick in the brain perhaps.

[Bloody Hell]

If only we had Playfair!

[Cheer Squad]

We can forget about Bradshaw being part of our forward line in the short and medium term. I reckon he'll pull the plug at the end of the season. There's no point in staying when you're breaking down all the time without even getting a game.

Injuries will sideline four key Swans players (http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/insult-and-injuries-for-swans-20100706-zz2x.html)

So, what does the future hold?

We really are in uncharted waters now for the first time since Tony Lockett joined the club in the mid-90s. We don't have a recognisable power forward to build a team around. First it was Lockett, then Hall. And those two guys were also the focal point for the marketing of the Swans in Sydney.

Forget about Playfair. He'll probably also pull the pin if he doesn't get delisted. Who else is there? Goodes is better off in the midfield. Moore and McGlynn are handy, but they're support players at best.

What about the youngsters? Jesse White? The jury's still out, but probably not. Vespremi? I strongly doubt it. Jetta? We need goals, not points. Who else? TDL? Not on last week's effort. Lewis Johnston? Don't know, we haven't seen him in the seniors yet. We're kind of burning through generation next rather quickly, aren't we?

Who do we really want as a key forward that's available, especially given the draft concessions to GC and GWS? It's going to take some very creative recruiting to fix this problem.

[msb]

We can forget about Bradshaw being part of our forward line in the short and medium term. I reckon he'll pull the plug at the end of the season. There's no point in staying when you're breaking down all the time without even getting a game.

Injuries will sideline four key Swans players (http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/insult-and-injuries-for-swans-20100706-zz2x.html)

So, what does the future hold?

We really are in uncharted waters now for the first time since Tony Lockett joined the club in the mid-90s. We don't have a recognisable power forward to build a team around. First it was Lockett, then Hall. And those two guys were also the focal point for the marketing of the Swans in Sydney.

Forget about Playfair. He'll probably also pull the pin if he doesn't get delisted. Who else is there? Goodes is better off in the midfield. Moore and McGlynn are handy, but they're support players at best.

What about the youngsters? Jesse White? The jury's still out, but probably not. Vespremi? I strongly doubt it. Jetta? We need goals, not points. Who else? TDL? Not on last week's effort. Lewis Johnston? Don't know, we haven't seen him in the seniors yet. We're kind of burning through generation next rather quickly, aren't we?

Who do we really want as a key forward that's available, especially given the draft concessions to GC and GWS? It's going to take some very creative recruiting to fix this problem.

IT was TDL's first game FFS! Give him a chance

[Mr Magoo]

IT was TDL's first game FFS! Give him a chance

And White hasnt even played a full season in the forwards. Vespremis not a key forward and I doubt it was ever intended he be one, Jetta same and TDL has played one game but will never be a power forward.

Key forwards rarely come in and dominate from day one . Kirk tippett who was hailed the nexty big thing at the crows rarely dominates and has only really had a few standout games this season and he has bigger wraps than white. Everyone is being way too impatient expecting that after a few games we will all of a sudden have a bunch of gun forwards. A perfect example of why we shouldnt just play all the young guys because this is what you get - mistakes and inconsistency.

[wearebloods]

IT was TDL's first game FFS! Give him a chanceAye

TDL is an opportunist little/medium man not a KPP (ffs he's only 182cm). Expecting him to be the focal point in the forward line is ludicrous. Let him lurk dangerously, without being the centre of attention and he has a reasonable chance to succeed.

With Goodes over 30 and not adapting too well to the life of a forward, Bradshaw's career in jeopardy, White not stepping up as yet and LJ still too raw to hold down a KP role, surely experimenting by playing Currie forward has some merit.

[31 hard at it]

With injuries we have to bank on Jesse White .... maybe the resting ruckman should spend a bit more time up forward ... pyke ... it keeps the opposition backs on their toes and gives a better chance to at least bring the ball to ground for opportunistic forwards ... ves, tdl.

[aardvark]

Maybe we could clone Bob Pratt...

[hammo]

Let's not go slitting wrists just yet.

Goodes has had poor periods in the midfield as well. There's no reason why he won't be a good key forward and has played some good games there before. Bradshaw was in great form before his knee flared up. For now the hamstring injury can be put down to bad luck rather than a fading body (though the two injruies are probably linked in some way - happens all the time).

As others have pointed out, TDL is not a key forward and I agree that Jesse White is a work in progress.

What we may see by the end of the season is Lewis Johnston go past White in the pecking order. He was highly rated youngster and seems to be putting it together in the reserves. Reasons for optimism.

Ultimately though, the forward line would be significantly better if we had a midfield capable of providing quick and good service.

Just as Hall has been reborn under the Dogs' more direct and polished style, Goodes would dominate as a forward if he was benefiting from the service provided by a Geelong, Bulldog, St Kilda or Collingwood midfield.

[Bloody Hell]

What about the youngsters? Jesse White? The jury's still out, but probably not. Vespremi? I strongly doubt it. Jetta? We need goals, not points. Who else? TDL? Not on last week's effort. Lewis Johnston? Don't know, we haven't seen him in the seniors yet. We're kind of burning through generation next rather quickly, aren't we?

Who do we really want as a key forward that's available, especially given the draft concessions to GC and GWS? It's going to take some very creative recruiting to fix this problem.

Gary Rohan - Full Forward

He wouldn't be the power forward you speak of, but once he gets a bit of weight on him will be extremely dangerous.

Quick - quick on the lead, great leap, great hands, straight kick, great goal sense and general awareness, doesn't stop trying and he's got red hair (easy target to spot).

[swansrule100]

wont we just buy or trade for someone? any 26 year old average tall forwards out there to trade away picks for or maybe a star to throw cash at.

[magic.merkin]

. A perfect example of why we shouldnt just play all the young guys because this is what you get - mistakes and inconsistency.

Amen Brother

[wearebloods]

wont we just buy or trade for someone? any 26 year old average tall forwards out there to trade away picks for or maybe a star to throw cash at.Have to wait until 2012. For now, unless a miracle occurs, the club has to work with what they have.

[Bob Neil]

Surely J Brown wants to dump the Bears? Maybe too far past his prime and only good for 1-2 yrs?

[Hartijon]

And White hasnt even played a full season in the forwards. Vespremis not a key forward and I doubt it was ever intended he be one, Jetta same and TDL has played one game but will never be a power forward.

Key forwards rarely come in and dominate from day one . Kirk tippett who was hailed the nexty big thing at the crows rarely dominates and has only really had a few standout games this season and he has bigger wraps than white. Everyone is being way too impatient expecting that after a few games we will all of a sudden have a bunch of gun forwards. A perfect example of why we shouldnt just play all the young guys because this is what you get - mistakes and inconsistency.
That's precisely why we should play them in a rebuilding year!

[aardvark]

We still need that forward line, TDL at best will be a good small forward. Would love to see Braddy fit and Vez and Ranga running around down there...

[Captain]

An in-form White combined with Bradshaw would make it potent.

[cruiser]

Our supposed forward line was completely inept today. We seem incapable of marking the ball inside 50. I will hope and dream that Bradshaw returns soon and White becomes the player we hope that he will.

[BSA5]

After seeing LJ in the ressies today, while he's still skinny and would be incapable of playing as a true CHF/FF, boy I'm excited for the future. Kid has some skillz.

[ScottH]

Our supposed forward line was completely inept today. We seem incapable of marking the ball inside 50. I will hope and dream that Bradshaw returns soon and White becomes the player we hope that he will.

Not sure if that is the problem cruiser. To me, it seems to be the delivery, and the continuing little dinky kicks into the F50, that give the fwds little to no chance to even try and mark it.
We continually screwed around looking for a target, rather than getting it into the danger zone.
And don't start me on the across the ground kicks. Are you listening Goodes, Malceski, Grundy et al???

[liz]

Not sure if that is the problem cruiser. To me, it seems to be the delivery, and the continuing little dinky kicks into the F50, that give the fwds little to no chance to even try and mark it.
We continually screwed around looking for a target, rather than getting it into the danger zone.
And don't start me on the across the ground kicks. Are you listening Goodes, Malceski, Grundy et al???

Comes back to chicken and egg situation. Is our forward delivery bad because there are no tall, mobile targets on the lead, or do our tall targets not move around and lead (when we have some - which we didn't yesterday) because the forward delivery is ordinary?

[ScottH]

Comes back to chicken and egg situation. Is our forward delivery bad because there are no tall, mobile targets on the lead, or do our tall targets not move around and lead (when we have some - which we didn't yesterday) because the forward delivery is ordinary?

Good point, but it's been going on for a while. It's just frustrating to watch (on TV). I'd prefer to get the ball into the danger zone if there are no other options.

[UglyDuckling]

until the ball starts continually coming out of the 50 and we all start complaining that we just bomb it in the whole time and we have no structure.

[Mr Magoo]

I thought the problem yesterday was lack of tru marking forwards. Ted is nothing but a stop gap and while he took some nice grabs he is not a focal target and doesnt lead well. TDL just isnt that big and while he showed he could make a good half forward, he will never be the power forward of the team .

Many times we streamed out of defence but were unable to find a target or if there were two targets they both lead the same way. This is probably due to the lack of experience of ted in that position and the lack of cohesion between the guys having rarely if ever played together in these roles.

[ugg]

Ted is nothing but a stop gap and while he took some nice grabs he is not a focal target and doesnt lead well.
I agree that he's a stop-gap measure but I'll disagree that he didn't lead well. Particularly in the first quarter he led hard, straight and fast and Tarrant couldn't keep up with him. Once Thompson was switched over, Ted's influence waned.


"Certainly on this ground you can get away with perhaps playing a bit more of a makeshift forward line and get him around the ball and get him involved early.
That was Roos's statement at the press conference. Playing at Etihad Stadium next week, I suspect we might see more of Goodes forward than in the midfield, especially if White isn't recalled. I hope I'm wrong.

[aardvark]

. Playing at Etihad Stadium next week, I suspect we might see more of Goodes forward than in the midfield, especially if White isn't recalled. I hope I'm wrong.

I hope you are wrong too. Goodes in the Mid we beat Carlton, in the forward line we lose IMO.

[TheHood]

You get the feeling that if we had Bradshaw and White firing up forward we would have beaten the Richmond by 6 goals and North by 12 goals.