RWO Ideas Forum - Promotion & Relegation

[Norris Lurker]

Only a week to go in the regular season, and the wooden spponers in all the divisions are already determined. The finals will determine who gets promoted; but how could the divisions look next year?

Premier Division stays as is - but should it? Is there any club you think should go up, and if so, should someone go down?
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.
Second Division - UNSW-ES will be relegated, the Third Division premier will be promoted.
Third Division - Holroyd-Parramatta are bottom team but they already have a team in Fourth Division so they can't be relegated.
Fourth Division - Auburn have been the dominant force in that division, and would welcome the chance to go up next season. But if the Goannas can't be relegated from Third Division, will there be a place for Auburn in the higher division? Could Third Division go to 11 teams to accommodate Auburn? Maybe 12 and promote Saints as well?

And what of the Under 18s? Is this season's lopsided results and forfeits a sign that Premier Division teams shouldn't automatically have their Under 18s in Premier Cup? Have Penrith earned the right to go up?

What are your thoughts?

[mountainsofpain]

Fourteen teams is far too many for Fourth Division. Provided no teams dropped out and we could get a couple more teams in, you could have eight teams in 4th and eight in a new 5th Division. If no new teams were to come in, you could look at having Divisions 3, 4 & 5 with eight teams each.

That would give a bit more flexibility with some of the gradings (eg Parra may be able to go to 4th and 5th Divisions, Mac Uni could have a side in each of 4th and 5th instead of both in 4th, etc), it would probably even things up a little more down in the lower grades and would hopefully encourage clubs like Parra and Penno to retain their third sides rather than thinking they are a waste of time. Plus with eight sides in the bottom divisions, it gives clubs a bit more of a chance to make the finals, which is an incentive for players (especially the newer ones) to stay around.

It's only an idea off the top of my head and I don't have the time to go into great depth about it. But I just wanted to throw it out there. Feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

Six senior comps is not new ground for Sydney footy by the way, from 1987-88 and 1992-93 we had:
Premier Division (whatever it was called then) - Seniors & Reserves
First Division (the old SFA) - Seniors and Reserves
Second Division (the old SFA 2 or whatever it was) - Seniors and Reserves

And in one season (1992), we actually had seven Senior competitions, with a Third Division (SFA 3) playing in addition to the above. That season saw 52 sides compete, in comparison with the current 54 (in order of divisions, the 52 sides comprised per division - 8, 8, 10, 10, 6, 5 & 5).

[Mug Punter]

Fourteen teams is far too many for Fourth Division. Provided no teams dropped out and we could get a couple more teams in, you could have eight teams in 4th and eight in a new 5th Division. If no new teams were to come in, you could look at having Divisions 3, 4 & 5 with eight teams each.

That would give a bit more flexibility with some of the gradings (eg Parra may be able to go to 4th and 5th Divisions, Mac Uni could have a side in each of 4th and 5th instead of both in 4th, etc), it would probably even things up a little more down in the lower grades and would hopefully encourage clubs like Parra and Penno to retain their third sides rather than thinking they are a waste of time. Plus with eight sides in the bottom divisions, it gives clubs a bit more of a chance to make the finals, which is an incentive for players (especially the newer ones) to stay around.

It's only an idea off the top of my head and I don't have the time to go into great depth about it. But I just wanted to throw it out there. Feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

Six senior comps is not new ground for Sydney footy by the way, from 1987-88 and 1992-93 we had:
Premier Division (whatever it was called then) - Seniors & Reserves
First Division (the old SFA) - Seniors and Reserves
Second Division (the old SFA 2 or whatever it was) - Seniors and Reserves

And in one season (1992), we actually had seven Senior competitions, with a Third Division (SFA 3) playing in addition to the above. That season saw 52 sides compete, in comparison with the current 54 (in order of divisions, the 52 sides comprised per division - 8, 8, 10, 10, 6, 5 & 5).

Out of interest, which clubs have gone out of existence since 1992?

Northern Eagles would be one but can't think of too many other. Bargo, Penshurst, Hawkesbury Ag, Bankstown or Blackrown could be possibilities but there must be other as Sydney Uni and Mac Uni didn't have 5 and 4 senior teams back then and UTS weren't about...

[Mug Punter]

Only a week to go in the regular season, and the wooden spponers in all the divisions are already determined. The finals will determine who gets promoted; but how could the divisions look next year?

Premier Division stays as is - but should it? Is there any club you think should go up, and if so, should someone go down?
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.
Second Division - UNSW-ES will be relegated, the Third Division premier will be promoted.
Third Division - Holroyd-Parramatta are bottom team but they already have a team in Fourth Division so they can't be relegated.
Fourth Division - Auburn have been the dominant force in that division, and would welcome the chance to go up next season. But if the Goannas can't be relegated from Third Division, will there be a place for Auburn in the higher division? Could Third Division go to 11 teams to accommodate Auburn? Maybe 12 and promote Saints as well?

And what of the Under 18s? Is this season's lopsided results and forfeits a sign that Premier Division teams shouldn't automatically have their Under 18s in Premier Cup? Have Penrith earned the right to go up?

What are your thoughts?

North Shore should definitely be able to field a thirds team and perhaps one of the new boys (Auburn or Maroubra) could cobble up a seconds side. Who knows, maybe another new team could spring up. St Ignations Old Boys or St Ives being resurrected or team somewhwere between Parramatta and Penrith would be possibilities.

I agree though that 14 is too many so by hook or crook we need Division 4 and 5 to have at least 8 teams each next year.

If we are serious about a decent Sydney comp then we need at least 8 divisions leading unltimately to a four division, two grade set up with automatic promotion and relegation. Surely the VAFA rather than the VFL should be the model for Sydney footy....

[mountainsofpain]

Out of interest, which clubs have gone out of existence since 1992?

Northern Eagles would be one but can't think of too many other. Bargo, Penshurst, Hawkesbury Ag, Bankstown or Blackrown could be possibilities but there must be other as Sydney Uni and Mac Uni didn't have 5 and 4 senior teams back then and UTS weren't about...
The entire Div 3 for a start - Hawks Ag, Heathcote, Holsworthy (Liverpool third side?), HMAS Nirimba and Merrylands (Parra 3rd side?). Then Bargo, Blacktown and Northern Eagles, plus Liverpool/Bankstown and Uni of NSW/East Sydney were still separate clubs pre-merger. (Do Bargo/Wollondilly still run around in the South Coast AFL?).

Plus back then Penno was called Hills, East Coast Eagles were Baulkham Hills, Southern Power were Sutherland, Holroyd-Parramatta was simply Parramatta and it was Hawkesbury not the Nor-West Jets. We also had Camden still in Sydney footy before they went south, only to come back again.

A lot of changes in Sydney footy........

[Pekay]

Hawkesbury Ag??? Don't know that they existed. Perhaps confused with the Saints?

Was told by one of the Maroubra boys yesterday that they'll field two teams next year, whether they are good enough for Div 3 & 4 is the question.

[mountainsofpain]

Hawkesbury Ag??? Don't know that they existed. Perhaps confused with the Saints?

Nope, definitely a separate club.

I think they lasted two years, 91 & 92.

Not sure what they used as their home ground, is there a ground at the Ag College?



Was told by one of the Maroubra boys yesterday that they'll field two teams next year, whether they are good enough for Div 3 & 4 is the question.
They can field sides in Div 4 & 5 then. ;)

[Coastal Boy]

[QUOTE=Norris Lurker;501831]
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.

Why cant UNSW be relegated??????

[BIGSHOW]

So what if UTS win 2nd div and can't go up and UNSW finish last in div 1 and can't go down what happens then?

[Norris Lurker]

[QUOTE=Norris Lurker;501831]
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.

Why cant UNSW be relegated??????Good point, UNSW-ES are last in Second Division and will go down; so if they come last in First Division there's nothing to stop them being relegated. And there's not a lot of percentage between them.

[BIGSHOW]

So if UTS win 1st 2nd 3rd div they can't be promoted.does that mean teams can't be relegated

[Mahatma]

i dont think too many teams that will be playing finals are worried about next year yet.
and pekay i wouldnt worry too much about maroubra or any other club not being good enough at the moment id concentrate on getting your team out of div 4 because your great goal of beating penrith on the ladder isnt going to happen.

[Coastal Boy]

So if UTS win 1st 2nd 3rd div they can't be promoted.does that mean teams can't be relegated

Remember, the league has the power to promote or relegate any team regardless of ladder position. I pity Wollongong if they get relegated. It would be a logistics nightmare travelling so far to multiple venues on one weekend. IMO they might as well wave the white flag now if that happens.

[JAYEFBE]

A 14 team div 4 isn't ideal. A div 5 to startup would be a great idea, and would encourage clubs to strive for a 3rd/4th side if they had the numbers.

However, new clubs should NOT be put straight into the bottom division, a little thought would be required to gauge experience etc. Auburn and Saints for eg. would wipe the floor every week if they were playing the bottom 5 teams of the current div 4 in a div 5 comp this year. Bad decisions re grading for new clubs has the potential to ruin the years competition for the lower Divs.

[Pekay]

i dont think too many teams that will be playing finals are worried about next year yet.
and pekay i wouldnt worry too much about maroubra or any other club not being good enough at the moment id concentrate on getting your team out of div 4 because your great goal of beating penrith on the ladder isnt going to happen.

Wow, did you take offence from that comment Croc? Getting soft n sensitive in your autumn years.

[ShortHalfHead]

Wow, did you take offence from that comment Croc? Getting soft n sensitive in your autumn years.

I didn't take offence, Pekay. I took it as a compliment that Penrith are the Jets benchmark in Div 4. About time we got you again anyhow. Now we just have to catch up in Div 2, hopefully sooner rather than later. Still got plans for 18's next year? Hope so, some handy players over there getting lost without a senior club.

[Pekay]

I didn't take offence, Pekay. I took it as a compliment that Penrith are the Jets benchmark in Div 4. About time we got you again anyhow. Now we just have to catch up in Div 2, hopefully sooner rather than later. Still got plans for 18's next year? Hope so, some handy players over there getting lost without a senior club.

Not the benchmark for us, finals was, but poor commitment from some blokes was the downfall, could've made a fist of it if they all switched on and showed up, considering we went from 13th to 6th. But next best thing is giving it to your mob.

Yes, still the plan, lot of work to do.

[Doormat]

We believe its that croc you have a coach & not the players. Pity that leg wasn't right to against Auburn.
Not the benchmark for us, finals was, but poor commitment from some blokes was the downfall, could've made a fist of it if they all switched on and showed up, considering we went from 13th to 6th. But next best thing is giving it to your mob.

Yes, still the plan, lot of work to do.

[Pekay]

We believe its that croc you have a coach & not the players. Pity that leg wasn't right to against Auburn.

[Pekay]

Damn, have to pay more attention, can't remember who I am logged in as at times.

[2005magicmoment]

A 14 team div 4 isn't ideal. A div 5 to startup would be a great idea, and would encourage clubs to strive for a 3rd/4th side if they had the numbers.

However, new clubs should NOT be put straight into the bottom division, a little thought would be required to gauge experience etc. Auburn and Saints for eg. would wipe the floor every week if they were playing the bottom 5 teams of the current div 4 in a div 5 comp this year. Bad decisions re grading for new clubs has the potential to ruin the years competition for the lower Divs.

Hi Jayefbe - I disagree. I think new clubs should start at the bottom. How else will you grade a new club until they start playing? And i think Wollongong should be relegated, it's not doing the players any good to be flogged consistently on a long-term basis.

[JAYEFBE]

Hi Jayefbe - I disagree. I think new clubs should start at the bottom. How else will you grade a new club until they start playing? And i think Wollongong should be relegated, it's not doing the players any good to be flogged consistently on a long-term basis.

I understand your point Magic. Clearances could be a good guide though? I would presume a new club would need to show they have the numbers before being accepted. A little research could show that if their players have alot of experienced players committed from higher divs then perhaps they might be too good for most clubs 3rd or 4th grades in Div 5. This may be easier said than done though.

Out of interest, do any leagues restrict clearances to individual players dropping down say from Premier League to a 5th or 6th Div club the year after? I know this happens in cricket assocations, they have wickets and batting averages to weigh up against though.:confused:

I do agree Wollongong should go down too, if UTS win the comp again that is. If Mac U spring an upset and win the comp would they want to go up?

[Junior]

Hang on, this time last year, and even only a few short months ago, we were all heralding the demise of the great Balmain Football Club. They have since turned a corner, albeit a small one, and are now sitting in 7th place with 5 wins. Yes, they had some handy resources to help dig themselves out of a hole, but it goes to show that given a little time, a club can start to turn it's fortunes around. Dropping out of premier division would be disasterous for Wollongong, but so would having one team in Premier Division and one in Divsion Two. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I believe in Premier Division, they should be given the chance, if they want it, to stay for one more year and try to prove their worth.

[Bert]

How are their 18's going? Spending a wad of cash on ex AFL players to come 7th, isn't really turning a corner in my books it is just same old same old.

[Junior]

How are their 18's going? Spending a wad of cash on ex AFL players to come 7th, isn't really turning a corner in my books it is just same old same old.

You are right, but that was not the point of my comment. I drew the comparison simply to illustrate that because Wollongong have struggled this year doesn't mean that we shoud neccessarily be calling for their head. Up until two weeks ago, Wollongong had the 2nd best percentage outside of the top 5, which shows that they have been competitive in a lot of matches, perhaps more than some teams above them on the ladder... they just haven't been able to get over the line. Losing McConnochie, arguably the best midfielder in the competition as well as Clint Wells and Troy Bartlett for a big part of the year has obviously really hurt them.

Having said all that, their U18s have not been competitive this year as they have been in previous years which is a concern. While the senior teams were struggling in the past, the club could look to the under 18s who last year made a prelim final (I think). This doesn't seem to have led to senior success this year...

[Hawknik]

You are right, but that was not the point of my comment. I drew the comparison simply to illustrate that because Wollongong have struggled this year doesn't mean that we shoud neccessarily be calling for their head. Up until two weeks ago, Wollongong had the 2nd best percentage outside of the top 5, which shows that they have been competitive in a lot of matches, perhaps more than some teams above them on the ladder... they just haven't been able to get over the line. Losing McConnochie, arguably the best midfielder in the competition as well as Clint Wells and Troy Bartlett for a big part of the year has obviously really hurt them.

Having said all that, their U18s have not been competitive this year as they have been in previous years which is a concern. While the senior teams were struggling in the past, the club could look to the under 18s who last year made a prelim final (I think). This doesn't seem to have led to senior success this year...

Where have Wollongong finished over the last 4 years??

[Doormat]

BERT BERT BERT.....................

Please understand that your club ECE has been the least successful club in the history of P/D. The past several years, reportedly you have spent over $1 million on player payments alone. Your club has targeted kids from other clubs & regions outside Sydney (pathway has fixed that now). Yes we have spent money on ex AFL talent (this has been good for the comp). The past 8 flags have come from N/S-4, UNSW-2 & P/H-2 all three of these clubs have built success around local juniors unlike your club.

You must be starting to panic as we have more money than you & certain players at EC are willing to jump ship back to Balmain & rebuild a real historic Sydney club. Watch this space peanut.:mad:


How are their 18's going? Spending a wad of cash on ex AFL players to come 7th, isn't really turning a corner in my books it is just same old same old.

[tara]

BERT BERT BERT.....................

Please understand that your club ECE has been the least successful club in the history of P/D. The past several years, reportedly you have spent over $1 million on player payments alone. Your club has targeted kids from other clubs & regions outside Sydney (pathway has fixed that now). Yes we have spent money on ex AFL talent (this has been good for the comp). The past 8 flags have come from N/S-4, UNSW-2 & P/H-2 all three of these clubs have built success around local juniors unlike your club.

You must be starting to panic as we have more money than you & certain players at EC are willing to jump ship back to Balmain & rebuild a real historic Sydney club. Watch this space peanut.:mad:

Sorry PK but you are obviously not Doormat as pretty much everyone here inlcuding you knows Bert has has nothing to do with East Coast and I can tell you Hell has more chance of freezing over than Bert pulling on an ECE jumper whilst he still has air in his lungs.

[Pekay]

I'm as confused as you Bert, and this is me writing this tripe above!

[tara]

Oh and Doormat I dont know how long Balmain have been around but the one Bert plays with has been around for more than sixty years and he has been a very active member in helping them rebuild so pick a better target next time peanut.

[Ken Oath]

... he has been a very active member in helping them rebuild so pick a better target next time peanut.

Why is 'BERT' so obsessed with Balmain? From what I see he likes to put them down every time they are mentioned. Even though he never had anything to do with them. Real bitter stuff for no reason.
And from what I gather there, he doesn't even play against them, never has, never will.

[tara]

Why is 'BERT' so obsessed with Balmain? From what I see he likes to put them down every time they are mentioned. Even though he never had anything to do with them. Real bitter stuff for no reason.
And from what I gather there, he doesn't even play against them, never has, never will.

Ken I think you will find it has more to do with some of the tools who pumped up Balmain and made them a bit of a laughing stock by boldly predicting all their problems are over with the magic of money - I do know that like me he has no real animosity towards them but doenst understand the mentality of opening a cheque book as a way get instant gratification because it is not going to do anything in the long term.

As for playing against them he has and I recall a somewhat spitefull game with alot of unnessecary agro - also he likes stiring the pot, if you dig back youll find he liked stirring the @@@@ out of me - I wouldnt take him to seriously.

[The Purse]

on balmain is it true they going back to tigers as well??

[ShortHalfHead]

on balmain is it true they going back to tigers as well??

Are they trying for Ben Cousins with the name change?

[Bert]

The past 8 flags have come from N/S-4, UNSW-2 & P/H-2 all three of these clubs have built success around local juniors unlike your club.

Thanks for that Einstein. You just illustrated my point. One other thing, didn't ECE win last years flag?

[Hawknik]

One other thing, didn't ECE win last years flag?

lol, and Bert takes the points!!

[Doormat]

Nikwit,
1 flag in 10 years - $1million spent on player payments in the past 7 years alone (fact) - they have burnt many kids in the Hills & clubs along the way. Ask some of the long serving 2's players why they wont play 2's anymore or why many of them have left!

Then you all come on here and burn us at Balmain for paying players. We like them will be a power in the next 10 years as we will stay in the Sydney football comp unlike EC who will play in the new Northern Comp - Ignorant fool;)

lol, and Bert takes the points!!

[Hawknik]

the fact you stated "The past 8 flags" is where you lost your argument Doormat. Simple.

I did not disagree or agree with anything else you said, merely, you made a bold statement that was called out as incorrect. Simple really.

Re Balmain, I for one have said I hope Balmain work out for the better. Results at present seem to show promise. What people in Sydney footy want to see though is the consistency over next year and then into the third year.

Re ECE, I too enjoy beating them, albeit in ressies for MU against their thirds, but hey a win is a win against a local opponent who you love to beat!! :)

[Doormat]

Alright then.

Who are the current premiership holders ECE right? who has won the past 8 flags????.
No wonder you go to MU you would never get through a real Uni! No need to tell me im right & you lost!:rolleyes:


the fact you stated "The past 8 flags" is where you lost your argument Doormat. Simple.

I did not disagree or agree with anything else you said, merely, you made a bold statement that was called out as incorrect. Simple really.

Re Balmain, I for one have said I hope Balmain work out for the better. Results at present seem to show promise. What people in Sydney footy want to see though is the consistency over next year and then into the third year.

Re ECE, I too enjoy beating them, albeit in ressies for MU against their thirds, but hey a win is a win against a local opponent who you love to beat!! :)

[BIGSHOW]

With east coast going to the northern league does that make way for UTS to go up to prem div and sutho to div one

[The Purse]

northern league, where was this announced? news to probably the league as well as east coast??

[BIGSHOW]

Mate I read the northern league stuff a couple of weeks ago in the telegraph it's was about GWS/Swans ressies around same time as sheedy Anzac clash at homebush

[Norris Lurker]

I don't know if the northern league will get off the ground. It gets brought up every few years, and unless the AFL was to pick up the travel costs for the clubs I can't see how it could be viable - but the rumour just isn't going away this time.

Not sure how they'd select the Sydney clubs for it. If hypothetically it did happen, I expect they'd pick the top couple of clubs from Premier Division, and the bottom Sydney club in the northern league would play off against the Premier Division champion for a spot in the next year's northern league.

[Ken Oath]

As for playing against them he has and I recall a somewhat spitefull game with alot of unnessecary agro

Indeed. I heard about it, someone called it 'the Battle of Harrington park 07'

[tara]

Indeed. I heard about it, someone called it 'the Battle of Harrington park 07'

There were a few indiscriminate acts on the day but most involved two very good mates but to be honest for some reason everytime Ive been involved in a game against the Tigers they have been pretty willing and that day was very tame in comparison.

[The Purse]

Mate I read the northern league stuff a couple of weeks ago in the telegraph it's was about GWS/Swans ressies around same time as sheedy Anzac clash at homebush

was more meaning where is announcement east coast are playing in it? everyone heard rumblings of it, but nothing concrete

[BIGSHOW]

East coast reference was off previous post mate cheers