Swans and Hawks to feature in pride game?

[Xie Shan]

Interesting... earmarked for our Round 23 home game at ANZ Stadium. Jeff Kennett has been pushing for a pride game through his work with beyondblue. I think a positive move as the Swans have a very diverse fan base.

Note, the Jason Ball referred to in the article is not the former Sydney player and Swans board member.

Swans may host pride game (http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/swans-may-host-pride-game-20121215-2bgo9.html)

[R-1]

All in favour of it. Footy culture still has a homophobic streak and the AFL and footy clubs are well positioned to stand strongly against that.

[Gezball]

I'm with you guys, a great idea. Hope it goes ahead.

[Xie Shan]

I'm always supportive of any initiative that helps to break down prejudices. The reality is (sadly) more difficult than that when you are confronted with the task of changing attitudes that are still quite entrenched, but I admire the AFL and the clubs for taking the first step.

[dimelb]

I'm always supportive of any initiative that helps to break down prejudices. The reality is (sadly) more difficult than that when you are confronted with the task of changing attitudes that are still quite entrenched, but I admire the AFL and the clubs for taking the first step.
Journey of thousand miles begins with one step.
Good on them.

[DamY]

There are a lot of swans fans that are not of your regular persuasion. I think the ethos of working hard, playing your role, working for respect regardless of your background resonates with a lot of ppl.

I think it's a great idea, just as I think it's great that they support a round that values the contribution of women, indigenous and others throughout the season.

I don't expect AFL to have a stance on everything but I think knowing that something you're passionate about respects who you are is something positive and worth talking about.

[Primmy]

My first thoughts were "I hope we are not playing Collingwood".

Second thoughts are "ok, might as well be Swans and Hawkes as not".

Third thoughts are "Gay Pride". To me it's kind of a matter of whether you are right handed or left handed. Its not exactly a choice, it just Is. One day may arrive when being gay is not exactly noteworthy. However that day is not now even though I often forget that fact myself and am a bit puzzled by reactions of others before realising that there is a way to travel yet in this land if you are gay.

But here is the thing. Gay Rights, Gay Support, whatever, I have no issue with and am happy to support. But I would like to make a note that I see the tag of Gay Pride as divisionary rather than inclusive (is that the word I am looking for?).

[BSA5]

My first thoughts were "I hope we are not playing Collingwood".

Second thoughts are "ok, might as well be Swans and Hawkes as not".

Third thoughts are "Gay Pride". To me it's kind of a matter of whether you are right handed or left handed. Its not exactly a choice, it just Is. One day may arrive when being gay is not exactly noteworthy. However that day is not now even though I often forget that fact myself and am a bit puzzled by reactions of others before realising that there is a way to travel yet in this land if you are gay.

But here is the thing. Gay Rights, Gay Support, whatever, I have no issue with and am happy to support. But I would like to make a note that I see the tag of Gay Pride as divisionary rather than inclusive (is that the word I am looking for?).

I see your point, but "pride" is expressed as a counterpoint to the shame many gays are made to feel for being how they are. It isn't meant in the sense that being gay is an achievement, or something that makes them separate or better; it's a strong statement of non-shame. But "Gay Non-Shame" doesn't have the same ring to it! It's similar for Black Pride, Latino Pride, etc, and is the reason that White Pride isn't really acceptable (because white people, in Western society, have never been systematically made to feel ashamed of their whiteness, so "pride" in being white only makes sense in a superiority sense).

Basically, Gay Pride is an expression of self-inclusion. They are refusing to let themselves be considered separate from the rest of society (of course, this is in general; a few gay people I know are kinda assholes if you're not also gay, but they're not the norm, and you get people like that from every demographic).

[Alan]

[QUOTE)
divisionary (is that the word I am looking for?).[/QUOTE]

I think divisive is.

[R-1]

My first thoughts were "I hope we are not playing Collingwood".

Second thoughts are "ok, might as well be Swans and Hawkes as not".

Third thoughts are "Gay Pride". To me it's kind of a matter of whether you are right handed or left handed. Its not exactly a choice, it just Is. One day may arrive when being gay is not exactly noteworthy. However that day is not now even though I often forget that fact myself and am a bit puzzled by reactions of others before realising that there is a way to travel yet in this land if you are gay.

But here is the thing. Gay Rights, Gay Support, whatever, I have no issue with and am happy to support. But I would like to make a note that I see the tag of Gay Pride as divisionary rather than inclusive (is that the word I am looking for?).

Pride just means "not shame". I think it'll need to continue to be a thing until being gay is not noteworthy, as you say.

It would only be divisive if "gay pride" was being held up in a supremacist way, as meaning straight folk should be shamed or something like that.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

[QUOTE=Xie Shan;602341]Note, the Jason Ball referred to in the article is not the former Sydney player and Swans board member.QUOTE]
Yeah I know, I signed his petition: But I couldn't help thinking I wish he was former ruckman Jason Ball.

Society in general someone's sexual orientation seems to be far less of an issue than it was. Certainly there are probably still homophobic idiots in the lunatic fringes (but those fringes contain people with all sorts of bizarre opinions).
A friend of mine, came out a couple of years ago, and despite his apprehensions about how people would respond, he was suprised to encounter an absence of shaming.
On the other hand, even if the AFL isn't a part of the homophibic lunatic fringe, that no past or present AFL player has come out suggests that is the fear. And that fear won't be dispelled until a current player comes out, nomatter how many pride games are played (perhaps such a game will hasten such an event?).

[ScottH]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.

[dimelb]

I see your point, but "pride" is expressed as a counterpoint to the shame many gays are made to feel for being how they are. It isn't meant in the sense that being gay is an achievement, or something that makes them separate or better; it's a strong statement of non-shame. But "Gay Non-Shame" doesn't have the same ring to it! It's similar for Black Pride, Latino Pride, etc, and is the reason that White Pride isn't really acceptable (because white people, in Western society, have never been systematically made to feel ashamed of their whiteness, so "pride" in being white only makes sense in a superiority sense).

Basically, Gay Pride is an expression of self-inclusion. They are refusing to let themselves be considered separate from the rest of society (of course, this is in general; a few gay people I know are kinda assholes if you're not also gay, but they're not the norm, and you get people like that from every demographic).
Well put.
We are not talking about the pride that goeth before a fall, or the pride that is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

[goswannie14]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.+1

[Doctor]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.

This.

[Big Al]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.

I hate Stereotypes... All the people who stereotype are all weird looking and they smell funny.

[GongSwan]

With Sydney overtaking San Francisco as the gay capitol of the world, they might wanna have the game at Homebush as we mioght pull a big crowd with a game labelled as such

[DamY]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.

Sorry, I don't really understand where you're coming from. Do you mean like having sub categories, such as L@SS? Black Swans?

[Wazza]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.


So your saying i shouldnt use "feral Collingwood supporters" ? maybe they are feral proud :hmmmm2:

Cheers

waz

[Velour&Ruffles]

Why does the AFL hate disabled people so much? We have rounds for women, for gays, for traditional rivals and for indigenous Australians. Not having a handicapped round seems like a calculated insult to me. You bastards.

[dimelb]

Why does the AFL hate disabled people so much? We have rounds for women, for gays, for traditional rivals and for indigenous Australians. Not having a handicapped round seems like a calculated insult to me. You bastards.
You are forgetting Richmond.

[ScottH]

So your saying i shouldnt use "feral Collingwood supporters" ? maybe they are feral proud :hmmmm2:

Cheers

waz

OK. Some groups deserve the labels they are given.

[goswannie14]

Why does the AFL hate disabled people so much? We have rounds for women, for gays, for traditional rivals and for indigenous Australians. Not having a handicapped round seems like a calculated insult to me. You bastards.What about a round for hetrosexual anglo-saxon males?

[Big Al]

What about a round for hetrosexual anglo-saxon males?


Don't we do enough for minorities already?? :wink:

[R-1]

Why does the AFL hate disabled people so much? We have rounds for women, for gays, for traditional rivals and for indigenous Australians. Not having a handicapped round seems like a calculated insult to me. You bastards.

There isn't much for footy to say specifically on that front. Whereas homophobia, sexism and racism are all things which are issues within footy.

[Primmy]

There is nothing more divisive than putting a label on any group of people.That's my point but better and more concise. Thanks for the insights everyone, and some of the more weird observations. Noteworthy is the fact that redandwhiters haven't said 'no' to the idea, at least out loud (don't hang me, a few of you would know what I mean).

[Xie Shan]

You are forgetting Richmond.

Nice one :clap:

[DamY]

That's my point but better and more concise. Thanks for the insights everyone, and some of the more weird observations. Noteworthy is the fact that redandwhiters haven't said 'no' to the idea, at least out loud (don't hang me, a few of you would know what I mean).

I don't see how having a round highlighting or commemorating something is so offensive or divisive. What is the AFL's connection to war, these days? Why commemorate ANZAC? Just a question. Don't get me wrong, I think our armed forces do a lot for us civilians but as much as football is "like" war, it really isn't. These feature rounds are common in sport, I personally don't mind celebrating women's and indigenous involvement in AFL but that's just me lol

[Yuri H]

As a red-and-whiter of somewhat pink persuasion (don't get me started on how much I hate the colour pink; I think Eastern Europe does it better with considering light-blue the 'gay' colour for some reason) I'm glad to hear about this - even if it means dragging myself out to ANZ (grumble grumble).

I know in an ideal world there'd be no labels, no need for subcultural/ethnic/gendered 'prides', but we're a far way off from an ideal world. And while I have never, ever felt less than welcome or ever felt looked at 'differently' by RWOers here or in person - always been treated as just another fellow pathologically-Swans-obsessed fanatic, there have been moments at games when I've been reminded of the attitudes of a significant (albeit shrinking, we hope) segment of society when I hear really hurtful homophobic words being used to 'taunt' the opposing team on the field shouted virtually into my ears from a row or two back. And hearing the beyond-teasing outright hatred in the tone of the words used, believe me I felt very very uncomfortable.

So yeah, I've had times of feeling distinctly unwelcome (or conveniently invisible) at the SCG or ANZ. It does mean a lot to me to have the Swans (well, yeah, and the Hawks and AFL in general) take a moment to go out of their way to make me & my friends & fellow tribesfolk feel like we're just as much a part of the supporter base as everyone else.

Most importantly, we'd better win the game.

[DamY]

As a red-and-whiter of somewhat pink persuasion (don't get me started on how much I hate the colour pink; I think Eastern Europe does it better with considering light-blue the 'gay' colour for some reason) I'm glad to hear about this - even if it means dragging myself out to ANZ (grumble grumble).

I know in an ideal world there'd be no labels, no need for subcultural/ethnic/gendered 'prides', but we're a far way off from an ideal world. And while I have never, ever felt less than welcome or ever felt looked at 'differently' by RWOers here or in person - always been treated as just another fellow pathologically-Swans-obsessed fanatic, there have been moments at games when I've been reminded of the attitudes of a significant (albeit shrinking, we hope) segment of society when I hear really hurtful homophobic words being used to 'taunt' the opposing team on the field shouted virtually into my ears from a row or two back. And hearing the beyond-teasing outright hatred in the tone of the words used, believe me I felt very very uncomfortable.

So yeah, I've had times of feeling distinctly unwelcome (or conveniently invisible) at the SCG or ANZ. It does mean a lot to me to have the Swans (well, yeah, and the Hawks and AFL in general) take a moment to go out of their way to make me & my friends & fellow tribesfolk feel like we're just as much a part of the supporter base as everyone else.

Most importantly, we'd better win the game.

Well said

[Alan]

As a red-and-whiter of somewhat pink persuasion (don't get me started on how much I hate the colour pink; I think Eastern Europe does it better with considering light-blue the 'gay' colour for some reason) I'm glad to hear about this - even if it means dragging myself out to ANZ (grumble grumble).

I know in an ideal world there'd be no labels, no need for subcultural/ethnic/gendered 'prides', but we're a far way off from an ideal world. And while I have never, ever felt less than welcome or ever felt looked at 'differently' by RWOers here or in person - always been treated as just another fellow pathologically-Swans-obsessed fanatic, there have been moments at games when I've been reminded of the attitudes of a significant (albeit shrinking, we hope) segment of society when I hear really hurtful homophobic words being used to 'taunt' the opposing team on the field shouted virtually into my ears from a row or two back. And hearing the beyond-teasing outright hatred in the tone of the words used, believe me I felt very very uncomfortable.

So yeah, I've had times of feeling distinctly unwelcome (or conveniently invisible) at the SCG or ANZ. It does mean a lot to me to have the Swans (well, yeah, and the Hawks and AFL in general) take a moment to go out of their way to make me & my friends & fellow tribesfolk feel like we're just as much a part of the supporter base as everyone else.

Most importantly, we'd better win the game.

Don't come back as an umpire in your next life...that is genuine hatred!

It seems that by highlighting differences in any group; black, white, religious, sexual orientation, pianist, military, richmond supporter, dentist whatever we are in fact highlighting that they are different, (from the so called norm). Wouldn't this then have the opposite effect on those folk making them feel....abnormal? Maybe we should openly ridicule all the homophobes in the crowd by standing up, en masse, and shouting, YOU ARE A LOOSER....YOU ARE A LOOSER. At half time we could have a "classic" moron paraded around the boundary on the back of a flat bed truck, suitably clad in typical garb, and we could all abuse him and throw our compost at him? Lets make them the different folk. IMHO! Any homophobes or morons offended herein was completely intentional.

[PerthSwannie]

Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!

Give me a break! Enough already OK!!!!! Sheeesh! What`s next?? People who love dogs but hate cats round?? It`s FOOTBALL people, that`s it. What about a round which is for ( WHIMWAKAW`s)

(White Hetro Males with Arse Kicking Amourous Wives) round....Hey!!!!!!

[DamY]

They have that, it's the white ribbon round for domestic violence. But that would be something irrelevant to Australia right??

[jono2707]

I'm all for it. It can only do good. It's nice to hear that most people on here so far are in support too.

[Big Al]

Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!

Give me a break! Enough already OK!!!!! Sheeesh! What`s next?? People who love dogs but hate cats round?? It`s FOOTBALL people, that`s it. What about a round which is for ( WHIMWAKAW`s)

(White Hetro Males with Arse Kicking Amourous Wives) round....Hey!!!!!!

This isn't a trivial issue. The depression rates among homosexuals is quite alarming and if the football community can help just a little bit then I think it's worth it. Football has done great things in tackling racism so why not tackle homophobia as well.

I'm not advocating football tackle every issue but as an important part of the community the football world has an obligation to use it's quite significant influence and take on issues like this.

[DamY]

This isn't a trivial issue. The depression rates among homosexuals is quite alarming and if the football community can help just a little bit then I think it's worth it. Football has done great things in tackling racism so why not tackle homophobia as well.

I'm not advocating football tackle every issue but as an important part of the community the football world has an obligation to use it's quite significant influence and take on issues like this.

You're right. I think Jason Ball's point is that before he "came out", the way that team mates and opposition players and maybe others in footy clubs may have made homophobic slurs around him or to each other. Unlike being a woman or indigenous, being gay is possible to hide for some people. My point is that when you're "with the boys", sometimes the way we speak changes, walls come down and slurs get bandied about that you probably wouldn't say if other people were around.

Jason Ball has been around his footy club since he was five, and no-one had any idea that he was gay. For him to come out and to ask the AFL to promote a Gay Pride round is not about highlighting or congratulating him for being gay. It's about making a statement to others who may have an issue with gay people to maybe take a look at what makes us similar (our love for footy) rather than what makes us different (who we love). In an article in The Age, an ex-Auskick coach was confronted by parents and called an assortment of choice words when they were spotted leaving a nightclub with their partner. Rather than causing a fuss, they quietly resigned.

The AFL and in recent times, Collingwood have done a great job in tackling racism. This was achieved through consultation and training as well as the threat of fines and membership termination. A multicultural round may be just the starting point or a annual reminder, but it is an opportunity to remind players and supporters that racism isn't ok. Jason Ball is a gay person who obviously thoroughly enjoys his footy and hopes that the AFL uses its powers for good to make a change and increase tolerance and understanding in not only his own community but throughout Australia.

[jono2707]

Big Al and DamY - a couple of quality posts from you two. It's great to read such well written and thoroughly decent comments and to see the support for this. Maybe one day this sort of thing won't be an issue but it certainly still is, and I'm speaking from personal experience here.

[DamY]

Big Al and DamY - a couple of quality posts from you two. It's great to read such well written and thoroughly decent comments and to see the support for this. Maybe one day this sort of thing won't be an issue but it certainly still is, and I'm speaking from personal experience here.

Cheers! I guess the goal for Jason and others is that we may all attend or play footy and feel safe from fear of being discriminated or vilified regardless of colour, sex, sexuality etc.

[Doctor]

You're right. I think Jason Ball's point is that before he "came out", the way that team mates and opposition players and maybe others in footy clubs may have made homophobic slurs around him or to each other. Unlike being a woman or indigenous, being gay is possible to hide for some people. My point is that when you're "with the boys", sometimes the way we speak changes, walls come down and slurs get bandied about that you probably wouldn't say if other people were around.

Jason Ball has been around his footy club since he was five, and no-one had any idea that he was gay. For him to come out and to ask the AFL to promote a Gay Pride round is not about highlighting or congratulating him for being gay. It's about making a statement to others who may have an issue with gay people to maybe take a look at what makes us similar (our love for footy) rather than what makes us different (who we love). In an article in The Age, an ex-Auskick coach was confronted by parents and called an assortment of choice words when they were spotted leaving a nightclub with their partner. Rather than causing a fuss, they quietly resigned.

The AFL and in recent times, Collingwood have done a great job in tackling racism. This was achieved through consultation and training as well as the threat of fines and membership termination. A multicultural round may be just the starting point or a annual reminder, but it is an opportunity to remind players and supporters that racism isn't ok. Jason Ball is a gay person who obviously thoroughly enjoys his footy and hopes that the AFL uses its powers for good to make a change and increase tolerance and understanding in not only his own community but throughout Australia.

That Age article you mentioned is a sad but probably still common story. I guess some parents, hopefully a minority, are unable to separate the concept of "gay football coach" from "he's going to interfere with my son or check him out in the change rooms."

Bring on the Pride round. In some ways I guess I'm disappointed that we need it, along the same lines of some of the posters here, but I can also see and understand the points of those who support it. I just hope that it's celebrated in a dignfied (but still fun) way rather than getting us all to sing along to the songs from Priscilla for the 20,000th time.

[dimelb]

My gay son and a friend were at a match immediately in front of some kids - I think in their teens - who were yelling homophobic remarks. They decided they'd had enough and stood up, turned around and asked the father of said kids to tell them to can it, or they would call security. Son is tall and athletic, friend is nearly as tall and built like a brown bear. Father complied and kids shut up. Good outcome under the circumstances but should not even be necessary. Roll on civilization.

[ShockOfHair]

Good idea for AFL to get in front on this one. It's an inclusive sport. League still welcomes Neanderthals, soccer is blighted by ethnic rivalries, cricket is for Anglos, rugby for private school Anglos.

[sharp9]

That's my point but better and more concise. Thanks for the insights everyone, and some of the more weird observations. Noteworthy is the fact that redandwhiters haven't said 'no' to the idea, at least out loud (don't hang me, a few of you would know what I mean).
Mmmmmm.....do you really, seriously think that saying "it's OK to be Gay" is divisive? In this particular instance (AFL football) there is a specific problem which this simple INCLUSIVE statement can begin to fix. In the wider community there is the very, very serious issue of bullying/abuse/systemic discrimination and suicide.....all as a result of the victims being gay.

The idea of this round is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF DIVISIVE :-)

The only people who might feel "divided" by this game are those who are religious nutcases and any others who genuinely homophobic. At this stage only 3 or 4 players have made a public statement that they would be fully accepting of a gay player. That is a truly staggering number that needs to change not just for the IMAGE of football but for the mental health of all gay footballers. As Elliot Ness said in The Untouchables (1987) "Let's go do some good!"

[Triple B]

A question for the couple of posters who have said they feel uncomfotable or disgusted when they have heard 'hurtful homophobic taunts' by fans at footy grounds directed at the opposition.

What are we talking about here? If an opposition player goes down looking for a free or similar and somebody yells out 'Get up ya weak poofter', is that the typical supposedly homophobic comment we are talking about? Or are there much worse homophobic slurs that I'm not sure I've heard at the footy?

[Primmy]

Mmmmmm.....do you really, seriously think that saying "it's OK to be Gay" is divisive? In this particular instance (AFL football) there is a specific problem which this simple INCLUSIVE statement can begin to fix. In the wider community there is the very, very serious issue of bullying/abuse/systemic discrimination and suicide.....all as a result of the victims being gay.

The idea of this round is THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF DIVISIVE :-)

The only people who might feel "divided" by this game are those who are religious nutcases and any others who genuinely homophobic. At this stage only 3 or 4 players have made a public statement that they would be fully accepting of a gay player. That is a truly staggering number that needs to change not just for the IMAGE of football but for the mental health of all gay footballers. As Elliot Ness said in The Untouchables (1987) "Let's go do some good!"

No that's not what I mean. call it clumsy english. And yeah, it sure is ok to be gay. In fact I was introduced to the game by a gay friend who I have known for some 35 years (I knew he was gay before he did, made for an interesting conversation). I have sat next to him at every home and some away games since 1996, along with multiple theatre events, Sydney Olympics, the odd tennis tournament, cricket, you name it, anything you can think of that requires a ticket and involves a lot of fun. I am only calling into question "gay pride" as a descriptive of being exclusive instead of inclusive. To me its a them v us descriptive.

So many of the gay men I know are not at all interested in being proud about being gay. We have had this discussion many times over the years, and most of them are just not that into the pride aspect. Perhaps they are now just comfortable within their own skins, as they are a great deal older than the age group Jason Ball comes from.

As for gay footballers, afl type, I am very sure there are quite a number of them from grass root to afl level. Its just not something I have thought about all that much, because being gay is not something I consider to be 'different'. It just is.

Ah well, perhaps I am behind the times as because as it is not an issue with me I have put it on a mental backburner as an issue to so many others. Happy to support gays in sport at any level. Mind you if I heard anyone in the crowd slanging off at a player in a gay slur way he had better have a quick exit worked out before I got to him.

[DamY]

A question for the couple of posters who have said they feel uncomfotable or disgusted when they have heard 'hurtful homophobic taunts' by fans at footy grounds directed at the opposition.

What are we talking about here? If an opposition player goes down looking for a free or similar and somebody yells out 'Get up ya weak poofter', is that the typical supposedly homophobic comment we are talking about? Or are there much worse homophobic slurs that I'm not sure I've heard at the footy?

Regardless of the context, using a derogatory term like that isn't right. It's just as unacceptable as saying "they're playing like women" (which I have heard at a Swans game by some rowdy fans). Saying things like "bummers" and "poofters" sets the example to children and others that it's ok to do and say things like that and that being a poof is not ok. We learn a lot from our environment and that is why it's not ok to do that.

I don't think it matters who is saying it, opposition or not, player or not, it's wrong. Now it's unacceptable to say things like @@@ and nigger and rightfully so. In time, saying something like faggot or poof or pansy will be unacceptable too and that is the goal.