Why are the Swans not bidding for the AFLW?

[Bloody Hell]

Serious question.

There are only two clubs not bidding for access to the expanded AFLW competition; Port Adelaide and the Sydney Swans. Why?

As the father of two daughters I am at a loss. The clubs bidding say it is fundamentally about culture and equity.

I have heard the club say previously they are focusing on the academy, but this is moving faster than that. Does anyone else have question marks regarding the leaderships interpretation of this issue?

[Meg]

The main issues are the lack of a training facility and changing room space for a women's team at the SCG. There are already difficulties for the men with the SCG not being available until the cricket season is completed. The two links below provide relevant info.

Sydney Swans NWL statement - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2016-04-29/sydney-swans-nwl-statement)

Swans eye AFLW side - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-04-06/swans-eye-aflw-side)

[Hotpotato]

Why does it have to be in the Eastern Suburbs.
What about North SYDNEY Oval . They have to find a way, the women are so keen , they would play anywhere .

[Mark26]

I'd also love to see a Sydney women's team. I'd second that the infrastructure would have to be an issue at the SCG. You wouldn't think wages would be a factor at the moment as current women's players are playing for peanuts.

[mattybloods]

Why does it have to be in the Eastern Suburbs.
What about North SYDNEY Oval . They have to find a way, the women are so keen , they would play anywhere .

I agree, North Sydney oval is probably the ideal venue. Another good one to consider is Drummoyne, although seating capacity might be an issue.

My thought was that there must be a big financial input in starting a Women's team and that we want to see how the competition plays out for a few years before making a bid. Although the first year was a success it will be interesting to see how well it builds over the next 5 or so years.

[rb4x]

Cricket would have most of the possible venues locked up. Blacktown was mentioned as the only possible location.

[Meg]

Just out and very relevant to this topic. And you must watch the video in the article - it's a delight!

"�While our football club hasn�t been in a position to apply for an AFLW licence to-date, mostly due to challenges with our facilities, we have always said we are committed to broadening female participation at all levels of our game and creating opportunities for women in football. We see the Youth Girls Academy as an important first step towards establishing a Sydney Swans AFLW team."

Swans launch Youth Girls Academy - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-06-15/swans-launch-youth-girls-academy?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MSHP17%20NSW%20reserved%20seat%20over %2018%2014JUN%20(1)&utm_content=)

[barry]

Another free kick to the Giants.

[mattybloods]

I like the idea of an academy launching prior to us having a AFLW team. By the time we're in the league we could have mostly local players which would be great. Still It's not a good look being one of the last to join the comp

[dimelb]

Just out and very relevant to this topic. And you must watch the video in the article - it's a delight!

"�While our football club hasn�t been in a position to apply for an AFLW licence to-date, mostly due to challenges with our facilities, we have always said we are committed to broadening female participation at all levels of our game and creating opportunities for women in football. We see the Youth Girls Academy as an important first step towards establishing a Sydney Swans AFLW team."

Swans launch Youth Girls Academy - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-06-15/swans-launch-youth-girls-academy?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MSHP17%20NSW%20reserved%20seat%20over %2018%2014JUN%20(1)&utm_content=)

Well, Meg, you were absolutely right about the video: classic feelgood. And watching the way the girls move and respond to questions it looks as if we'll have some talent on our hands. The Bloodsline seems to be running true.

[aardvark]

Well, Meg, you were absolutely right about the video: classic feelgood. And watching the way the girls move and respond to questions it looks as if we'll have some talent on our hands. The Bloodsline seems to be running true.

Hopefully by the time the girls are old enough we'll have a team.

[bloodspirit]

Why does it have to be in the Eastern Suburbs.
What about North SYDNEY Oval . They have to find a way, the women are so keen , they would play anywhere .

The issue is not a venue to play at - it is training facilities. They want to co-locate the women with the men so they can all be integrated as part of the one club and currently there is no space. Here are some excerpts from the statement:

The Sydney Swans are at maximum utilisation of their facility at the SCG and there is no capacity or space for an additional team to be housed at the Club�s headquarters.
Planning is underway for a new training and administration facility in the Moore Park Precinct, which will include provisions for both a Female Academy and a future NWL team, as well as the existing QBE Sydney Swans Academy and Indigenous Academy. However, the new facility is still some years away.
Swans Chief Executive and Managing Director Andrew Ireland said the advent of a National Women�s League is terrific for football, and the Swans are committed to participating in the league, but will defer their application for a licence until the Club is in a position to deliver a program to an elite standard.@

What's great is that the development of the Girls Academy shows how committed the club are to having a team in the future. Taya O'Loughlin looks a good prospect!

Incidentally does NWL=AFLW??

[AnnieH]

We don't have the room.
We don't have the money.
It should be a "touch" game and not a tackle game.

[bloodspirit]

It should be a "touch" game and not a tackle game.

I think you're being ironic?

[monopoly19]

I think it's embarrassing and disappointing that the Swans are one of just two teams that aren't interested. I doubt the other 16 teams all have the best facilities but they have made it work or are at least willing to try. The Lions - one of the grand finalists from this years comp - are still looking for an appropriate ground for their team. Would the players and supporters rather they waited until they had one? I doubt it after the season they've just had. The AFLW generated a huge amount of interest and goodwill for the AFL and the Swans are choosing to be left behind, and are leaving their members who would love to support a women's team stranded.

[Mug Punter]

I think it's embarrassing and disappointing that the Swans are one of just two teams that aren't interested. I doubt the other 16 teams all have the best facilities but they have made it work or are at least willing to try. The Lions - one of the grand finalists from this years comp - are still looking for an appropriate ground for their team. Would the players and supporters rather they waited until they had one? I doubt it after the season they've just had. The AFLW generated a huge amount of interest and goodwill for the AFL and the Swans are choosing to be left behind, and are leaving their members who would love to support a women's team stranded.

I think the Swans reaction is commendable and I think your reaction is errm, reactionary :)

At the moment we simply don't have the resources or infrastructure to do this properly. I do think North Sydney Oval would be a brilliant venue if available but I suspect it simply isn't.

And whatever people say on here the talent just isn't there at the moment. You reference to us to Brisbane but the number of women up there blows Sydney way out of the water right now.

But the game for girls is going gangbusters and I believe there will be enough talent in 4-5 years which is why the announcement of the Girls Academy for 12-13 year olds is so significant. We've been unequivocal about wanting a team but we'll do it properly, like we do with everything we'll do

[Meg]

Incidentally does NWL=AFLW??

Yes it does. The announcement that the new women's competition would be called 'AFLW' was made just before the beginning of the first season which commenced in February 2017. The Swans statement that uses 'NWL' was made in April 2016 when that title was generally used.

[liz]

I think the Swans reaction is commendable and I think your reaction is errm, reactionary :)

At the moment we simply don't have the resources or infrastructure to do this properly. I do think North Sydney Oval would be a brilliant venue if available but I suspect it simply isn't.

And whatever people say on here the talent just isn't there at the moment. You reference to us to Brisbane but the number of women up there blows Sydney way out of the water right now.

But the game for girls is going gangbusters and I believe there will be enough talent in 4-5 years which is why the announcement of the Girls Academy for 12-13 year olds is so significant. We've been unequivocal about wanting a team but we'll do it properly, like we do with everything we'll do

I am disappointed that the Swans aren't yet able to support a women's team but, like you, I'm not disappointed in the club. I would much rather they do it properly, when they have the facilities to do so, rather than rush into something they're not able to support yet.

I doubt the AFL will grant another 8 licences for 2019. I suspect it will be four - one to Geelong, one to Freo, maybe one to the Suns (if the AFL thinks they can support it) and one to another Melbourne based club. Geographically, St Kilda or Hawthorn would make sense, given there's not currently a club to the east of Melbourne. The Swans should be ready by the following wave of licences and I doubt they will be penalised by not applying earlier. So long as the demand to play is there, I imagine a second team in Sydney would be attractive to the AFL.

[Meg]

I am disappointed that the Swans aren't yet able to support a women's team but, like you, I'm not disappointed in the club. I would much rather they do it properly, when they have the facilities to do so, rather than rush into something they're not able to support yet.

This is my view as well. If the Swans had a women's team now it would be almost a separate entity, segregated from the men's team and the club facilities. And how many would make the hike to support them if they played at Blacktown?

The Giants have an enviable integrated set up for their men and women at Tom Wills Oval at Olympic Park. I hope that is what the club is seeking to emulate.

[Bloody Hell]

I think it's embarrassing and disappointing that the Swans are one of just two teams that aren't interested. I doubt the other 16 teams all have the best facilities but they have made it work or are at least willing to try. The Lions - one of the grand finalists from this years comp - are still looking for an appropriate ground for their team. Would the players and supporters rather they waited until they had one? I doubt it after the season they've just had. The AFLW generated a huge amount of interest and goodwill for the AFL and the Swans are choosing to be left behind, and are leaving their members who would love to support a women's team stranded.

I agree 100%

The Swans aren't ready? Why not? Did the idea come out of the blue without warning?

The reason they aren't ready is because it isn't a priority for the club. They are paying the idea lip service only. I had an idea of our club as a leader in the competition, but clearly I am wrong.

I find it difficult to accept that the Swans are the worst (or 2nd worst) equipped club in the competition to field a women's team.

[Mug Punter]

I agree 100%

The Swans aren't ready? Why not? Did the idea come out of the blue without warning?

The reason they aren't ready is because it isn't a priority for the club. They are paying the idea lip service only. I had an idea of our club as a leader in the competition, but clearly I am wrong.

I find it difficult to accept that the Swans are the worst (or 2nd worst) equipped club in the competition to field a women's team.

So, starting an elite level development programme for women players via the Academy is just lip service for you is it?

I take the club at their word re their commitment long term but I'd prefer us to do it properly.

Some people are never happy and always looking for something to whinge about, then again if you want to get your knickers in a knot over this in Abu Dhabi then knock yourself out...

[Meg]

Might be worth re-visiting statements the club has made about its objective of having a dedicated training facility in the Moore Park vicinity. This just before the 2017 season:

"Sydney Swans chief executive and managing director Andrew Ireland says the Club is continuing to push ahead with plans to build a new training and administration base."

"Ireland said the building would be world class and was one of the key priorities for the Club off the field in 2017."

Swans search for new base - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-02-02/swans-search-for-new-base)

And this article from 2016 also has some relevant commentary and quotes from Andrew Ireland:

"..... it has emerged the club is searching Sydney for a venue that can be redeveloped to stage matches for their reserves side in the NEAFL competition and also be a home for their Academy and a possible women's team. It could also be used for preseason training, though the club's preferred position is to keep its training and administration base within the Moore Park precinct."

Sydney Swans, AFL eye Henson Park as home for 'elite second-tier' facility (http://www.smh.com.au/afl/sydney-swans/sydney-swans-afl-eye-henson-park-as-home-for-elite-secondtier-facility-20160323-gnps1h.html)

[Bloody Hell]

So, starting an elite level development programme for women players via the Academy is just lip service for you is it?

I take the club at their word re their commitment long term but I'd prefer us to do it properly.

Some people are never happy and always looking for something to whinge about, then again if you want to get your knickers in a knot over this in Abu Dhabi then knock yourself out...

If the Andrew Ireland came to work tomorrow and decided that it was a priority it would get done.

I don't like the idea that in 100 years the Swans will be known as the last team that permitted women to play in the AFL. What's so wrong with believing the club should be leading the way on this issue?

Not sure what geography has to do with it. Only people from where ever you are can have an opinion?

[barry]

I don't think the AFLW will ever get to 18 teams, so the swans have probably missed out all together.

[aardvark]

I don't think the AFLW will ever get to 18 teams, so the swans have probably missed out all together.

Over 70,000 new female registrations this year around Australia. Shouldn't be too hard to find 300 to fill 10 teams.
Whisper is down here in footy land that the first expansion could well be another 8 teams.

[robamiee]

first exp will only be 2-4 clubs...
afl knows it is on a winner however it also knows that the elite talent has to be built up, so that the games from a quality point of view get better..Hence why it deferred the expansion for 1 year.
Elite comp cant have teams kicking 20 points of less and while it is great they get elite talent from other sports, growing the game from grassroots is the key, thus improving the overall game which will attract more sponsors and more players
So a slow careful expansion is what the AFL will do to ensure its doesnt get killed off from itself..

[Sandridge]

Last year, I travelled up from Melbourne to see the Bloods play GWS. (Possibly the year before?)
The curtain raiser was a women's game between the Swans and Giants. Swans won!
I was therefore surprised when we didn't apply for one of the original licenses.
Is anyone able to tell me where the women who represented us that day came from? Was it a representative side from a local competition?

[Meg]

Last year, I travelled up from Melbourne to see the Bloods play GWS. (Possibly the year before?)
The curtain raiser was a women's game between the Swans and Giants. Swans won!
I was therefore surprised when we didn't apply for one of the original licenses.
Is anyone able to tell me where the women who represented us that day came from? Was it a representative side from a local competition?


That match was the one of a series of women's exhibition matches last year, with the two teams for the Sydney game representing the best female talent in New South Wales and ACT (plus several American women who were putting themselves forward for consideration for the AFLW draft)). So I think both teams were formed by putting together a combination of women players drawn from various NSW and ACT clubs. That is, the players on the day for both teams didn't usually play together at the same club.

If you want to see who made up the Swans team, then the names and the clubs they came from are listed here:

Meet your women's team - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2016-04-07/meet-your-womens-team)

[barry]

Over 70,000 new female registrations this year around Australia. Shouldn't be too hard to find 300 to fill 10 teams.
Whisper is down here in footy land that the first expansion could well be another 8 teams.

Going to 18 teams has very high logistical problems
- cost
- talent
- time ( how to fit in more games)
- support

Won't be 10 years at least, at best.

[baskin]

I believe the club has been upfront with the situation from the start. I also believe that even if we did put in a bid at the beginning of the process we would not have been granted a team. It was always going to go to GWS.

[aardvark]

I have absolutely no problem with the clubs approach. The Academy is excellent news. What disappoints me is there are 2-3 excellent prospects in the NSW U/18 girls this year that will now have 10 year careers with GWS and that will keep happening until we get a team.

[Sandridge]

That match was the one of a series of women's exhibition matches last year, with the two teams for the Sydney game representing the best female talent in New South Wales and ACT (plus several American women who were putting themselves forward for consideration for the AFLW draft)). So I think both teams were formed by putting together a combination of women players drawn from various NSW and ACT clubs. That is, the players on the day for both teams didn't usually play together at the same club.

If you want to see who made up the Swans team, then the names and the clubs they came from are listed here:

Meet your women's team - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2016-04-07/meet-your-womens-team)

Big thanks Meg!

[Meg]

"At least two clubs � and possibly four � will be given the green light to join the AFLW in 2019."

"The AFL received bids from Essendon, Geelong, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, North Melbourne, Richmond, St Kilda and West Coast by the Friday afternoon deadline."

"The Sydney Swans made a submission indicating an interest in fielding a team in the future, providing they can provide appropriate training and administrative facilities."

Eight clubs submit bids for AFLW in 2019 - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-16/eight-more-clubs-submit-bids-for-aflw-)

[Beerman]

I do find it disappointing that we aren't launching an immediate bid, but I don't know enough about football administration and what it takes to run a club (including a men's team, a women's team and the academies) to know just how achievable it is. I know from my own work experience that there are always really great opportunities that have to be shelved because of a lack of resources, and that often people are not very happy about that.

Besides, what's wrong with women in Sydney playing for GWS? (Mods - please, please don't ban me! ;)) It would be great if Sydney (the city) had two teams, but at least we have one.

[erica]

I'm extremely pleased the Swans are developing potential female players at the academy. Our club has always been strong on development of local talent and it's great to see this extended to girls and young women.

[Thunder Shaker]

"The Sydney Swans made a submission indicating an interest in fielding a team in the future, providing they can provide appropriate training and administrative facilities."

Eight clubs submit bids for AFLW in 2019 - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-16/eight-more-clubs-submit-bids-for-aflw-)
In what way would the Swans' "training and administrative facilities" not be up to scratch for a women's team?

[barry]

Do the swans girls academy players go to the giants once they are old enough?

[aardvark]

Do the swans girls academy players go to the giants once they are old enough?
They can choose to nominate for the NSW draft or any other state draft if they wish.
If they nominate for NSW only then GWS is their only chance.

[Meg]

In what way would the Swans' "training and administrative facilities" not be up to scratch for a women's team?

That's discussed earlier in this thread but here's some more info.

"...... Tramway Oval (is) where the Swans train over the pre-season due to cricket at the SCG ............. "

"It�s not just the Swans who make use of the narrow training field over summer. Tramway Oval is also used by the Waratahs and the QBE Sydney Swans Academy, which will this year include some 600 members."

"The absence of an alternative training ground was a key factor in Sydney delaying a bid for an AFL women�s team, along with the Swans having outgrown their existing training and administration base."

Swans back on greener pastures - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-03-13/swans-return-to-greener-pastures)

[giant]

Another free kick to the Giants.

Twice I've been forced to agree with Barry in a week. This could become a habit.

[Danzar]

That's discussed earlier in this thread but here's some more info.

"...... Tramway Oval (is) where the Swans train over the pre-season due to cricket at the SCG ............. "

"It�s not just the Swans who make use of the narrow training field over summer. Tramway Oval is also used by the Waratahs and the QBE Sydney Swans Academy, which will this year include some 600 members."

"The absence of an alternative training ground was a key factor in Sydney delaying a bid for an AFL women�s team, along with the Swans having outgrown their existing training and administration base."

Swans back on greener pastures - sydneyswans.com.au (http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2017-03-13/swans-return-to-greener-pastures)

Exactly this. I spoke to Dean Moore about this a few months ago - Club needs to expand their training facilities just for the men's, so the future of an AFL Women's team is tied to that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aprilbr]

There was a lot of talk about 12 months ago about the Swans signing a deal for a new training base. This talk seems to have gone quiet. It would be a key factor I think as the facilities around the SCG are just too small now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bloodspirit]

The vibe I got from the recent press releases is that they are actually getting closer to sorting out a training base in the Moore Park precinct, which is obviously their preference. Alternatives are just that: a plan B if Moore park doesn't work out. Assuming they can work something out at Moore Park, I assume the cost will be higher. It will also mean we are tied to the precinct for the long term. I hope it works out.

Also, I think it's not just the oval they need to train on but offices/change rooms/gym space etc is also at a premium. At least they are not in demountables like the Giants once were.

[CKunde]

I reckon the Swans are going about it in a very smart way that will almost guarantee future success in AFLW.

The links they're forming with the UNSW-ES Stingrays with coaches and players are setting them up to have a pool of staff with years of development and experience before they even hit the track for the first time.

As for 10 year careers with GWS for the players being drafted in the next couple years, I wouldn't take it as a given. AFLW contracts presently are 24 months with the league and 12 months with the clubs. I doubt anyone will be signing long contracts for a while yet.

The Swans will hit the ground running when they start, I'd put my house on it.

The bulk of GWS current list are in the Swans 'zone'. Their head coach is a former Swan. GWS may have the licence, but they will need to do a lot of work to catch up to what the Swans already have ready to go.

[bloodspirit]

From Andrew Ireland's recent interview on the Swans' website I took it that the Club is totally committed to (and very likely to get) an AFLW licence, but not before 2022. I'm impatient to start cheering on a women's team and may even go to see GWS play at Drummoyne. Would be so much better if it were a Swans' game however.

[bloodspirit]

Women’s team remains a priority (https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/854422/women-s-team-remains-a-priority)

[bloodspirit]

Possibly the title of this thread needs to be updated. Then again, I'm not sure who apart from me reads this.

Anyway, I found this article today on Fox Sports arguing that the AFL should be cautious about expanding the AFLW competition too soon: The alarming Round 3 ladder that proves AFL can’t rush expansion (foxsports.com.au) (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/womens-afl/afl-news-2021-aflw-ladder-expansion-why-competition-must-stay-at-14-teams-for-now/news-story/c3c1659dc1a586e7642ff6d176b40824?recommendedCount= 0). I am unconvinced by their strongly asserted argument.

First, in general, I have come to have less confidence in Fox and the way they report stuff. I feel like they have a real slant and I neither trust nor share their agenda. For example, in the recent reporting of stories related to Heretier Lumumba and Collingwood FC, I noticed a huge disparity in the way they reported the stories compared to the ABC (which I feel is much more independent and reliable).

Second, I feel like the authors underestimate the impact of the speed that the pool of talent is growing. Women are flocking to the game since the advent of the AFLW. In addition, they are getting drafted more and more ready to play.

Third, in the case of Sydney, I am hopeful that our Academy will give us a really good base from which to start and the girls we draft from the Academy will be readier to play than draftees who haven't had access to Academies and other elite pathways. They note the advantage NMFC had with priority access to the University of Melbourne VFLW team. I doubt the Academy girls will be comparable to VFLW players because they will be younger and less proven but it still shows that priority access to a decent pool of talent can make a big difference.

Fourth, I feel like in our enthusiasm and excitement at getting an AFLW team we will be more forgiving of our AFLW team if they don't have onfield success when they are starting out compared with our established AFLM team. Fifthly, on a related point, I don't think it is exactly the same market that follow AFLW compared to AFLM. There will some overlap (diehard followers like me) but there will be others, probably mostly women, who are newly brought to the game of footy to follow AFLW. I suspect that AFLW followers may be less fickle than with AFLM because they will be more invested in supporting the cause of women's footy.

Finally, I think that AFLW has the advantage, that they face less competition for market-share in women's sport than in the saturated men's sports market. Sure you have excellent netball and cricket competitions that are established, and a decent W-League and WNBL, but other codes (like NRL) are not currently able to compete with the quality of product that AFLW can offer. I think it is the AFL's interests to push ahead and consolidate the advantage they have by grabbing the more audience and market share they can before the others catch up. It will be important to not dilute the quality of the product too much to not surrender that advantage but (a) part of that quality is having a larger competition that gives all fans of existing AFL clubs a team to follow (and, also, aspiring players greater hopes of getting a game); and (b) I have a lot of faith in the women taking up the sport with such passion and in such numbers to bridge the quality gap within just a few seasons.

[Meg]

Excellent post bloodspirit. I originally thought the AFL were increasing the number of AFLW teams too quickly. But I have changed my mind for all the reasons you have set out so clearly.

Like other Swans fans I wish we had our own AFLW team. Unfortunately the Covid effect on the Swans’ finances, and the consequent abandonment for now of the planned new training facilities, seems to have extended the timeframe for when the club will be ready.

[bloodspirit]

Thanks, Meg. Great to have someone add to the conversation! Not sure if I should even call it a conversation when it's been just me talking to myself the past nearly 4 years.

I probably wouldn't feel so strongly if we were one of the clubs with an AFLW licence and I wasn't itching for someone to barrack for. I concede there are arguments both ways and I'm not well informed.

I also agree that Covid has set the cause back. We're not going to be able to bid for an AFLW licence until we have the facilities, and unless the club comes up with another plan, that means until the Royal Hall of Industries development gets back on track. I'd say 2023 is now the soonest we can hope for. Sad for the girls in the Academy if they graduate before then and hold hopes of playing AFLW in Sydney. Conversely, it will be a windfall for the rest of the AFLW, especially GWS. They will be able to swoop down on all the talent we have been nurturing! The AGM must be coming up some time soon. Hopefully we'll find out more then.