Injuries - Naismith ACL

[rickmat]

What is happening with Dawson and Ling? No info from club at all!!!!!!

[707]

and McVeigh. Maybe they think supporters aren't interested in injuries during the preseason? We know we are!

[O'Reilly Boy]

and McVeigh. Maybe they think supporters aren't interested in injuries during the preseason? We know we are!

Add my voice to this. Last injury report on line is from August 2017. I realise that the coaches probably prefer playing their cards close to their chests, but we are being starved of any news beyond a trickle. The AFL site offers us more than the Club site!

[ugg]

Terrible news with Naismith doing his ACL this morning during training. This is going to test our ruck depth.

Huge blow for Swans with ruckman to miss 2018 - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-03-07/huge-blow-for-swans-with-ruckman-naismith-to-miss-2018)

[AnnieH]

Dang.
Bring back tipoff.

[swansrob]

Awful for Naismith, but huge opportunity for Cameron

[liz]

Yikes.

On a team note, this is worrying, having already lost Tippett. And with it emerging last weekend that Sinclair has had ongoing, albeit minor, issues with his ankles.

On the other hand, the ruck is probably the area where we were already at our weakest, so it's not as if we rely on an excellent ruckman to execute the game plan.

On the third hand, it presented an opportunity for improvement if we could get Naismith up and running. Our centre clearance work improved immensely during the back end of 2016 when Naismith came into the team. His tap out to advantage rate was much higher than any other recent ruckman we've had (including Mumford, though he was great when the ball hit the deck).

It's very sad for Naismith. I think he has the potential to be a very decent ruckman but it's just been one injury after another for him. I am starting to think he'll never be able to string enough training or enough games together to reach his potential.

I think the biggest opportunity arises for Aliir. Even without the foot issues that plagued him last year, I think it was going to be challenging for him to break into the senior team unless there were injuries to our other key defenders. Early signs of Melican this year is that he looks bigger, stronger and more confident, and ready to build on his excellent debut season. Although some on here think we can play Reg, Rampe, Melican and Aliir all in defence in the same team, I don't believe the coaches will see it that way. But I've seen a bit of Aliir rucking during training sessions and he's looked very competitive in the air. He has a lot to learn about the craft but I think he may well get the chance to learn on the job this season.

I'm not convinced by Cameron as anything but a part time ruck chop out. I think he has talent but his forward line work was more impressive in the NEAFL last year than his ruck work, and I didn't think he showed much in the ruck last weekend.

[Cosmic Wizard]

Looks like a premediated plan; all our ruckmen getting injured or retiring??

Is someone trying to put the playing style of Bulldog and Richmond in to play on the sly?

Maybe they are trying to get AA as our mobile ruckmen.

Can't think who would do this; maybe someone else can suggest a name????

[707]

Bummer, very sad for Sam who is without doubt our best ruckman.

We're going to have to be inventive now, learn to rove to losing rucks is a tactic employed by teams in the past, like when facing Sandilands.

Some fast tracking of someone coming up in the next three weeks!

[wolftone57]

I think we have to fast track young Amarty. We can't play a whole season with two recognised rucks. Aliir after all is not a recognised ruckman. Amarty on the other hand has played all his junior footy in the ruck. Aliir only played there in Qld. When he went to WA they played him back. Sure use Allir and towers as the second ruck option but we need to make sure we have three first ruck options up our sleeve with our injury prone rucks.

[Mark26]

Really sad for Sam. But it does open up opportunities for others and will force us to be creative.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Darn. That's terrible news. Our clear no. 1 ruck. We may actually end up short of ruckmen this year. Who would've thought?

- - - Updated - - -


Dang.
Bring back tipoff.

Where is the Dislike button?

[wolftone57]

Really sad for Sam. But it does open up opportunities for others and will force us to be creative.

Mark creative we might be but unless Joel Amarty ends up being the Messiah then i doubt we have the rucks to compete at the highest level. Sinclair and Cameron are good second rucks but definitely not first ruck material. We are in trouble unless we can come up with something really different. out mids are going to have to get used to roving to losing rucks each week and that is effing hard to do. In fact I'd say they will start to show the strain about mid season.

[liz]

I think we have to fast track young Amarty. We can't play a whole season with two recognised rucks. Aliir after all is not a recognised ruckman. Amarty on the other hand has played all his junior footy in the ruck. Aliir only played there in Qld. When he went to WA they played him back. Sure use Allir and towers as the second ruck option but we need to make sure we have three first ruck options up our sleeve with our injury prone rucks.

I think the prospect of Amarty playing any senior footy this year is very slim. As far I as I have seen (admittedly not that many sessions) he's not been training at all with the main group. I'm not sure I've even seen him doing much running.

He's very much undersized to be a full time ruckman at AFL level too. He's listed at just 196 cm. So he'll need to be strong, fit and athletic to compete against the other competition ruckmen. He's going to need a fair bit of time in the NEAFL to develop.

[Ludwig]

It's terrible for Sam that he's always been plagued with injuries. He had a lot of potential. Now it looks to be career over.

I agree with Liz that it probably opens the biggest opportunity for Aliir. I don't think Sinclair offers much as a ruckman and it's too early to say if Cameron will be good enough. Amartey could be an option in the future.

We should be a more successful team with Aliir and Towers as our ruck combo. It's the way of the future and it really suits the style of play we are heading towards. Injury and a generally poor quality ruck division have forced our hand, but it could all be for the best.

[goswannies]

I think the prospect of Amarty playing any senior footy this year is very slim. As far I as I have seen (admittedly not that many sessions) he's not been training at all with the main group. I'm not sure I've even seen him doing much running.

He's very much undersized to be a full time ruckman at AFL level too. He's listed at just 196 cm. So he'll need to be strong, fit and athletic to compete against the other competition ruckmen. He's going to need a fair bit of time in the NEAFL to develop.
196cm and 88kg. He would be rag-dolled

[swansrob]

Dang.
Bring back tipoff.
Given Tippett retired after the final list lodgement, could he not make a comeback as he's still technically listed?

[wolftone57]

196cm and 88kg. He would be rag-dolled

Aliir is 196cm and I'm sure Amarty has put on some weight over the summer. That was last year's weight from his playing TAC. Naismith was supposed to be 200cm when we drafted him but he was in fact 205 or more. Look I said fast track not make him first ruck. He needs to be there in reserve just in case. Can't be a Mitchell or McLaren.

[bloodspirit]

It's not that dire yet. Sure we've lost our two best rucks in Tippo and Naismith but nobody could confidently predict whether they would both be in the best 22, and that was playing two rucks.

We've still got Sinclair and Cameron. Sinclair has a minor injury apparently and will hopefully be ready for Round 1 or else soon afterwards. He is an experienced ruck at AFL level and his best work has been more than handy. The problem is we haven't seen enough of it. Cameron is still a bit of an unknown. He was looking promising before getting injured midway through last year but we haven't seen enough of him in the ruck to fill us with confidence.

The fill-ins are Aliir and Towers. Aliir is injured for the time being and who knows what happens once he has recovered - might depend on how the team goes in the meantime. Towers is obviously not a main ruck option and will at best be able to assist Sinclair or Cameron as second ruck. Likewise, I'm not in favour in chucking Reid or Parker or whoever too much in the ruck. We've gotta show faith in the team and the rucks we've recruited.

Lastly we have Amartey - but he is a project and hasn't shown evidence of bursting out of the blocks in the pre-season so I think we are unlikely to see him this year unless we also lose Sinclair and Cameron. Still, if Aliir and Towers are tall enough, so is Amartey.

Overall the timing of these injuries isn't so bad. Before Tippo retired we had an excess of depth in this position at the same time playing two rucks was going out of vogue. We've still got some solid options and some less-tried back-ups and a lot of teams are putting less emphasis on winning ruck contests anyway. I'm surprised Ludwig hasn't described this as an irrelevant footnote to the season if not a hidden blessing.

[wolftone57]

I think the prospect of Amarty playing any senior footy this year is very slim. As far I as I have seen (admittedly not that many sessions) he's not been training at all with the main group. I'm not sure I've even seen him doing much running.

He's very much undersized to be a full time ruckman at AFL level too. He's listed at just 196 cm. So he'll need to be strong, fit and athletic to compete against the other competition ruckmen. He's going to need a fair bit of time in the NEAFL to develop.

that isn't what I'm talking about Liz. He is really athletic and plays ruck better than Goodes at a junior level. what I'm saying is we need him to be ready to go if our other ruckmen go down. Last year we had a situation that nearly every ruckman went down. Only sinclair survived and then after the others started to come back he got injured. We don't have Tippett this yaer and no Naismith really puts us up against it. Aliir is no first ruck and I'm not sure of him rucking at AFL level.

At least Amarty was taking first ruck duties in the TAC. If the other two go down, which they seem to do regularly, we might just need him so it would seem prudent to get him ready. I don't think you really appreciate the desperation here. Not one ruckman short but two due to Tip retiring and the other two we have left are just plodders when it comes to ruck duties. We are dreadfully stretched. Not only that the two we have left are injury prone. the universe help us if either of them go down. If both of them do we only have Aliir of the experienced players left. That leaves Amarty who was drafted as a ruckman. By the way according to people who have seen training he has been doing light work but spending more time in the gym. I'd say they are trying to bulk him up a bit.

If this was an ordinary season Joel Amarty's name would and should not even be mentioned except when talking about him making his NEAFL debut. But I'm here to tell you that if the other two go down they will start looking to fast track his progress.

[liz]

Aliir is 196cm and I'm sure Amarty has put on some weight over the summer. That was last year's weight from his playing TAC. Naismith was supposed to be 200cm when we drafted him but he was in fact 205 or more. Look I said fast track not make him first ruck. He needs to be there in reserve just in case. Can't be a Mitchell or McLaren.

Aliir might be 196cm but he's a full five years older than Amarty and has been in the system for more than four years. He's fitter, stronger and more experienced. Even he is a doubtful ruck prospect but there's a huge gulf between his capabilities - for this season - and those of Amarty. I think it's folly to think Amarty is going to come in and play in the ruck for the senior team in 2018.

[lwjoyner]

Why do we get ruckmen with injury problems. Tippert was always injured and could not put a string ogf games together. Naismith its the same always one or two in then out injured. Maybe we need to convince tippert to unretire

[stevoswan]

I think we have to fast track young Amarty. We can't play a whole season with two recognised rucks. Aliir after all is not a recognised ruckman. Amarty on the other hand has played all his junior footy in the ruck. Aliir only played there in Qld. When he went to WA they played him back. Sure use Allir and towers as the second ruck option but we need to make sure we have three first ruck options up our sleeve with our injury prone rucks.

That's what I thought as soon as I heard about Naismith. Amarty's highlights reel reveals an excellent tap ruckman who positions himself well and puts the ball down midfielders throats nearly very time......yes, it is time to fast track him.

[Foreign Legion]

Bloody hell I was worried about this in the thread V Brisbane Lions when Sinclair got injured - this is terrible news. Will need Aliir to recover quickly. Trying to think of other options besides Sam Reid - is Toby Pink any chance of elevation? May not be tall enough but he is an option I guess. I just hope Cameron steps up - he has to take his chance.

[Ludwig]

I'm surprised Ludwig hasn't described this as an irrelevant footnote to the season if not a hidden blessing.


We should be a more successful team with Aliir and Towers as our ruck combo. It's the way of the future and it really suits the style of play we are heading towards. Injury and a generally poor quality ruck division have forced our hand, but it could all be for the best.I have commented on the matter, but only briefly. There's an extensive analysis which I could provide, but I won't do it all in one go, to spare RWO members the pain.

Most of us have been following the game for quite some time and have become fixated with traditional roles and game styles from a game much steeped in history. But things are changing. In my own team analysis I no longer use the traditional 6 x 3 matrix of player positions, because the game is no longer played that way.

Forget about the traditional image of a ruckman: The big guy who tries to out-muscle another big guy to get a touch to the advantage of another member of the team.

This part of the game is about stoppage strategy and may involve any number combinations of player types and tactics, some with big traditional type ruckmen, some without.

At present we do not have a good option that involves a big man beating another big man at stoppages, so we just do something else. We should play the stoppages defensively, trying for a loose ball situation. If we don't win the first loose ball situation, we should be setup in a position behind the ball to get a turnover from a forced kick from the opposition.

We should also try to keep the ball in play, avoiding stoppages and taking advantage of having an extra mobile player in lieu of the opposition typically immobile ruckman. If you look at our recent drafts of players like Hayward, Florent, Ling and Stoddart, it is quite evident that we are quickly evolving in this direction. We are not the stoppage team that benefited from a powerful ruckman and players like Kirk, Bolton and ROK.

Some may not see any analogy between basketball and Aussie Rules, but I see many similarities in game strategy. In NBA basketball the big powerful centre is going out of style, unless he is mobile and can shoot from the outside. The game has evolved from a low scoring period to more speed, outside shooting and more scoring. There are ever more taller players with great mobility and agility, like our own Australian Ben Simmons, who plays point guard at nearly 7 feet tall and moves like a gazelle. In AFL we are seeing a trend to taller midfielders as well as more mobile tall forwards and backmen.

The future of the game is with speed, quick movement and skills across the ground. The loss of Tippett and Naismith may seem unfortunate, but has given us a hard push in the right direction. Hopefully the coaching staff see the opportunity and go with it and not try to force an inferior player to fit the mould of a traditional position.

Aliir looks to be in training without any support for the ankle, so he should be okay to go round 1. I'd be happy to give Cameron a go and see if he's up to it. Toby Pink has played in the ruck and is another option although he hasn't shown enough so far to say he's a good enough footballer and we haven't seen him in pre-season games so far. In any case, I believe there can be an effective strategy even if every hitout is lost to advantage.

[Ludwig]

Carrying ruckmen is a waste list space. They are usually out injured anyway. It looks as though Natanui will be out for round 1 as well as Vardy, yet again. Even Max Gawn has only managed to play 74 games in 8 seasons and the Demons actually played their best football when Pederson was their number 1 ruckman. Richmond won the premiership with 1 ordinary and over-hyped ruckman, mainly because no one bothered defending him, and Shaun Grigg taking plenty of the stoppages. The evidence regarding the ruckman is there for all to see, unless you keep your eyes closed.

[Mel_C]

When I heard the news the first thing I thought of was Ludwig. What have you been up to over the summer?? First Tippett and now Naismith. ????

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

[wolftone57]

Aliir might be 196cm but he's a full five years older than Amarty and has been in the system for more than four years. He's fitter, stronger and more experienced. Even he is a doubtful ruck prospect but there's a huge gulf between his capabilities - for this season - and those of Amarty. I think it's folly to think Amarty is going to come in and play in the ruck for the senior team in 2018.

I think you are reading this totally wrong. Please note;

If this was an ordinary season Joel Amarty's name would and should not even be mentioned except when talking about him making his NEAFL debut. But I'm here to tell you that if the other two go down they will start looking to fast track his progress.


then;
If both of them do we only have Aliir of the experienced players left. That leaves Amarty who was drafted as a ruckman. By the way according to people who have seen training he has been doing light work but spending more time in the gym. I'd say they are trying to bulk him up a bit.

What I'm saying is he should be ready in case of an emergency. After all the last ruckman standing last week was Cameron. In fact Aliir went down too.

I'm not saying in normal circumstances Amarty would play seniors. I'm saying if worst comes to worst he should be ready. By the way I've seen a lot of reserves and Aliir is not very good in the ruck.

[Foreign Legion]

Carrying ruckmen is a waste list space. They are usually out injured anyway. It looks as though Natanui will be out for round 1 as well as Vardy, yet again. Even Max Gawn has only managed to play 74 games in 8 seasons and the Demons actually played their best football when Pederson was their number 1 ruckman. Richmond won the premiership with 1 ordinary and over-hyped ruckman, mainly because no one bothered defending him, and Shaun Grigg taking plenty of the stoppages. The evidence regarding the ruckman is there for all to see, unless you keep your eyes closed.

Well argued Ludwig - I am *almost* convinced - time will tell I guess. Imagine if Aliir can stay fit and use the ball like he did in his breakout season - he could be a real weapon in the square or around the stoppages

[stellation]

My analysis of this situation is: this isn't good.

[Scottee]

Oh bother!

Sent from my SM-T805Y using Tapatalk

[MattW]

Bummer for Sam.

As has been said, Naismith is our best tap ruckman, although that didn't provide us with the advantage last year that it seemed to in the latter part of 2016. He is also quite aggressive around the ruck contests and tries hard. I really like his attitude. There are some limitations to his game, which expose us from time to time. He's not a great mark, his disposal is pretty poor both by hand and foot, and he is not a goal threat.

I think the following are the available options, in order of preference (from their perspective):

* Sinclair main ruck/Towers relief

I think any realistic option has Sinclair playing main ruck. The question is what else happens. I think this will be their preference and it is mine too.

The main consequence of this is that we will see less of Sinclair forward. I am not too upset by that. While his marking has really come on and he had some great games forward last year (the Bombers final comes to mind), I thought his lack of pace was exposed a few times against better teams and left us looking a bit lumbering up there. The consequence of Sinclair playing less forward is that it is less likely that Reid and Rohan will play back, which is also good.

Sinclair gives a contest around the ground; he'll get more ball than Naismith, although he'll provide fewer taps to advantage.

This option isn't awful.

* Sinclair main ruck/Cameron relief

It is hard to get too much of a sense of how effective Cameron will be at this level yet. I missed the first JLT game, but Ludwig's review wasn't encouraging.

This option might depend on match-ups, but on the face of it, it is not awful.

* Sinclair main ruck/Aliir relief

This is the exciting option. I think it would work and really add something. But I don't hold out too much hope for it. For a start, it requires all of our tall defenders to be fit, because they will push him back if any one of Rampe, Melican or Grundy don't play. I also suspect they see him as a long-term tall defender and want him to develop that craft.

Might be an option if Towers and/or Cameron go down.

It's hard to see, realistically, how Amartey is an option, having played none of pre-season and apparently not training too much. Hopefully it gets him a good shot at the rucking duties in the reserves and he can develop for the coming years.

[mcs]

My analysis of this situation is: this isn't good.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up - whether ruckmen are a waning influence or not, we are now -2 players in that area for the entire season.

[dimelb]

Perhaps if we put Cox in the 35 guernsey?
Otherwise I'd go with Sinclair with backup from Towers and Cameron.

[Ludwig]

Here's a question to make you think about the ruck situation more deeply:

If there were no ruck contests, how many ruckmen would be good enough to make the best 22 of their respective teams?

The only one I can think of is Patty Ryder, who could probably play a key forward for PA. Brodie Grundy, Matt Kreuzer and Jordan Roughhead are other possibilities who might just be good enough to claim a KPP spot, but nothing certain.

That segues into a further question: What do ruckmen do that warrant a spot in their team that they otherwise are not good enough to earn?

Supposedly they are providing first use of the ball at stoppages or preventing their counterparts from providing first use of the ball for the opposition. More broadly, they are doing something that will lead to more scoring opportunities for their respective sides than the opposition. There is plenty of evidence from last year alone where teams that were smashed in hitouts and also lost clearances by some margin went on to have decisive victories.

The objective is to produce more scoring opportunities, not blindly put up some big guy to lock horns with the opposition's big guy. There are other ways to get the desired result.

I don't think Sinclair offers much in this regard. He puts up some resistance in the ruck contests, but generally loses them. He's not a good mark and is certainly very inconsistent with his marking. He might have a good game or two by stringing a number of good marks together, but then flop the following week. He's not a good decision maker, nor is he a good user of the ball. I think at 28 that Sinclair has probably peaked out. When he's playing forward he's usually just clogging up space that others could run into.

I'm not sure about Cameron, but he's more mobile and a better mark than Sinclair, but needs to play the physical sort of game that's required of an AFL ruckman. Sinclair has significantly improved his game in this regard since coming to the Swans and is one of positives for him. At 22 and no AFL experience, Cameron is an unknown to some extent, but at least he has upside potential, and that may be worth pursuing until proven that he's not going to be good enough. if that should be the way it turns out.

In any case, none of the traditional ruck options look all that appealing for us, so why not try something different. I think our best ruck combo is Towers and Aliir, with Parker and Reid taking the ruckman role for several contests a match.

It's worth mentioning again that my opinions on ruckmen have been strongly influenced by Lee Mathews, who has been on to this for as long as I have.

[Jimitron5000]

Ludwig, if there were no ruck contests it would be a different sport! That said, the game is definitely evolving and ruckman need to be able to provide more than hitouts and a contest.

Devastated for Naismith. I like the way he goes about it.

[O'Reilly Boy]

Interesting photo from yesterday's training of Cameron and Amarty contesting a ball-up. Amarty is pretty solidly built, particularly across the thighs and hips, and is looking strong across the shoulders in this photo. [URL="http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2018-03-08/gallery-wednesdays-training-in-pictures"] Admittedly in the photo it also looks like his vertical leap is about 6 inches. Still, he's in there, and I reckon will get a run against GWS on Friday. He doesn't look to be giving away as much in height or bulk to Cameron as the published stats suggest: Cameron 204cm 100kg; Amarty 196cm 88kg.

And I love the swam of mids waiting at the fall in that picture. Get used to that.

I feel for Naismith, but must admit earlier in the year I had him at number 3 ruck option behind Tippett and Sinclair. I've also been sold on the idea of only taking in one dedicated ruck and playing Towers, Aliir and Parker as chop outs (Parker in particular in attacking 50). Any opinions on Pink? He's a rangy fellow, but I've not seen him in action.

Some concern was raised above about stripping back line of height if Aliir goes to the middle, but I think that we have that covered (touch wood).

Could the Swans and Eagles get together and lobby for a no-centre-bounce, no ball-up, no boundary throw season opener?

[Captain]

Bad news about Naismith.

Cameron isn't the answer.

Sinclair to be main ruck with Aliir, Reid and/or Towers providing a chop out would be my solution.

[Billericay]

At present we do not have a good option that involves a big man beating another big man at stoppages, so we just do something else. We should play the stoppages defensively, trying for a loose ball situation. If we don't win the first loose ball situation, we should be setup in a position behind the ball to get a turnover from a forced kick from the opposition.

We should also try to keep the ball in play, avoiding stoppages and taking advantage of having an extra mobile player in lieu of the opposition typically immobile ruckman. If you look at our recent drafts of players like Hayward, Florent, Ling and Stoddart, it is quite evident that we are quickly evolving in this direction. We are not the stoppage team that benefited from a powerful ruckman and players like Kirk, Bolton and ROK.

I hate to agree with Ludwig but... There have been several people on here begging the Swans to develop a more possession based, uncontested style. Perhaps this terrible injury to poor Sam N will force the Swans to play more in that way? We may actually have the players to play it this year.

Dean Towers as "second ruck" has been a big success I think. There was a centre bounce against Brisbane where he was breaking away from the pack with the ball... He does that on a regular basis.

Big concern is our #1 ruck as we now realistically only have one player - Sinkers, who can play that role (unless Cameron / Amartey perform a miracle) and realistically he's going to get injured at some point, leaving us with zero options. If it was me I'd be attacking it from both ends - that is trying to do everything possible to get Cameron / Amartey / Pink up to speed (but I think its a long shot) and working out how to play with 2 smaller more mobile players in the ruck - such as Towers and Aliir. Even for that to work is a stretch as we don't actually have another player who's shown they can hold down the ruck role other than Reid - and I really hope he doesn't become the ruckman by default.

We went OK with Goodesy in the ruck. I don't remember was he #1 or back up? And did we mostly lose or win the hitouts back then?

[The Runner]

We went OK with Goodesy in the ruck. I don't remember was he #1 or back up? And did we mostly lose or win the hitouts back then?

Back up ruck - Jason Ball was #1 ruck, with Donkey Doyle his replacement when injured (Qual Final v Port). Goodes was always a secondary until he did his PCL in Perth.
The reality is, there will be days this year when guys like Gawn and Preuss tear us apart in the middle. We need clear plans to deal with it, similar to how Richmond managed to have Grigg attend a contest and just get it at ground level.

[Ludwig]

I hate to agree with Ludwig but... There have been several people on here begging the Swans to develop a more possession based, uncontested style. Perhaps this terrible injury to poor Sam N will force the Swans to play more in that way? We may actually have the players to play it this year.

Dean Towers as "second ruck" has been a big success I think. There was a centre bounce against Brisbane where he was breaking away from the pack with the ball... He does that on a regular basis.

Big concern is our #1 ruck as we now realistically only have one player - Sinkers, who can play that role (unless Cameron / Amartey perform a miracle) and realistically he's going to get injured at some point, leaving us with zero options. If it was me I'd be attacking it from both ends - that is trying to do everything possible to get Cameron / Amartey / Pink up to speed (but I think its a long shot) and working out how to play with 2 smaller more mobile players in the ruck - such as Towers and Aliir. Even for that to work is a stretch as we don't actually have another player who's shown they can hold down the ruck role other than Reid - and I really hope he doesn't become the ruckman by default.

We went OK with Goodesy in the ruck. I don't remember was he #1 or back up? And did we mostly lose or win the hitouts back then?

Agreeing with Ludwig should be avoided if at all possible. Could become addictive.
The Brisbane game showed that we are already moving toward a ball control game plan, more reminiscent of Hawthorn than the Swans of recent history, but that's because the personnel is changing that can support this kind of game plan.
Right on Towers. I stated many times over the past year that I didn't think Towers was in our best 22, unless he played in the ruck, and it's exactly because of his ability to create a high quality inside 50 from the stoppage. This offsets the loss of the majority of the hitouts because our stoppage players are expecting to lose the hitout and can read the play off the opposition ruckman tap.
Sinkers is a very mediocre player not in keeping with our new attacking game plan. Playing Sinclair is conceding that position to the opposition instead of taking a more aggressive countermove.
Goodes was a fantastic ruckman who won a Brownlow in that position, albeit as the #2 ruckman, but was such a force to be reckoned with. In fact, I would say Goodes was the prototype ruckman for the modern game.

[liz]

Goodes was a fantastic ruckman who won a Brownlow in that position, albeit as the #2 ruckman, but was such a force to be reckoned with. In fact, I would say Goodes was the prototype ruckman for the modern game.


I don't think Goodes was a prototype. That suggests he was first of a kind.

I remember in the mid to late 1990s, Roos and Luff both playing as a mobile ruckman. They generally didn't take centre bounces but did play around the ground as the team's primary ruck. Goodes did take some centre bounces, so I guess he was a little different, but he certainly wasn't the first smaller man to play as a ruckman.

I doubt Roos and Luff were either. Those who've been following the game longer than I have can probably relate tales about smaller, more mobile ruckmen dominating (just as smaller full forwards were once the go).

Trends towards smaller, mobile players or towards giants come and go. It wasn't so long ago that clubs were thrilled to find a moderately mobile 205+ cm ruck, having seen how Sandilands could dominate games when he was fit. We found Naismith. The Pies found Cox. Even just last year the Dogs drafted English. Those deemed no longer tall enough to be proper ruckmen became the new breed of full-forwards - Daniher, for example, or Wright.

And then after the Tigers win a premiership with one moderately sized key forward and a lot of small forwards, some are suggesting that the days of even a second tallish forward target are numbered. Sentiments will change soon if, say, the Giants win the 2018 premiership with Paton, Cameron, Himmelberg and Lobb dominating in the air.

[Burra]

SOME OF THE FORMER RUCKING GREATS

190cm � Sam Newman (Geelong)

191cm - Polly Farmer (Geelong)

189cm � John Nicholls (Carlton)

188cm � Noel Teasdale (Richmond)

[bloodspirit]

Interesting photo from yesterday's training of Cameron and Amarty contesting a ball-up. Amarty is pretty solidly built, particularly across the thighs and hips, and is looking strong across the shoulders in this photo. [URL="http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2018-03-08/gallery-wednesdays-training-in-pictures"] Admittedly in the photo it also looks like his vertical leap is about 6 inches. Still, he's in there, and I reckon will get a run against GWS on Friday. He doesn't look to be giving away as much in height or bulk to Cameron as the published stats suggest: Cameron 204cm 100kg; Amarty 196cm 88kg.


To me that photo shows up every bit of the 12 kg weight difference. Cameron looks way more solid through his shoulders and back, it's harder to tell with the limbs.

Some great photos there. That one of Will jumping is awesome! Also love the photo of Heeney v Rampe - Heeney looks very determined.

[rickmat]

There is a lot of skepticism about Cameron being able to ruck which I feel is unfair. He spent most of last year out with injury and hasn't had the opportunity to show his wares. Last week was his first game for a year. Lets see what happens tomorrow and then make a fair assessment please.

I still wonder when we will find out more about Dawson and Ling. Dawson is the interesting one as it appears he is on the outer by the Swans Brains Trust. In my mind, he has far more talent than Robinson, Foote, Cunningham and Rose. My thoughts for what they are worth

[bloodspirit]

'Technically Kurt could play': Swans' ruck crisis - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-03-08/technically-kurt-could-play-swans-ruck-crisis)

[liz]

Dawson is the interesting one as it appears he is on the outer by the Swans Brains Trust. In my mind, he has far more talent than Robinson, Foote, Cunningham and Rose. My thoughts for what they are worth

It's been mentioned in several threads that Dawson has been injured. Longmire said at the AGM that he was about six weeks away, though I can't remember if that was six weeks until he was ready to resume full training or six weeks until he was ready to play. I think it was the latter. (And from memory, I think Longmire said it was a quad issue.) Longmire spoke positively about Dawson and the club's hopes for him.

[Ludwig]

I don't think Goodes was a prototype. That suggests he was first of a kind.
I should have said that Goodes is the paragon of the modern ruckman. If you can get a big guy like Dean Cox, who can do it all, it's probably a better ruck option than a Goodes, but they are few and far between. It will be interesting to see how Amartey progresses. He fits the Goodes type mould, a bit undersized, but very athletic. He also looks as though he will fill out into a powerful player as well.

[barry]

'Technically Kurt could play': Swans' ruck crisis - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-03-08/technically-kurt-could-play-swans-ruck-crisis)

There is a romantic view that tippet comes in late in the season and delivers a flag, just when we'd given up on him. Clark Keating style.

[MattW]

Interestingly, Kinnear Beatson has suggested Aliir is an option in rhis piece: Nocookies | The Australian (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/aliir-aliir-a-shock-option-at-ruck-for-sydney-swans/news-story/7e2312567aae82202c339d2fbc25684c). Slightly strange, as Harley tends to speak for the club on these kind of matters. Mention is made of Amatey learning his trade in the NEAFL for a year.

[ScottH]

Interestingly, Kinnear Beatson has suggested Aliir is an option in rhis piece: Nocookies | The Australian (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/aliir-aliir-a-shock-option-at-ruck-for-sydney-swans/news-story/7e2312567aae82202c339d2fbc25684c). Slightly strange, as Harley tends to speak for the club on these kind of matters. Mention is made of Amatey learning his trade in the NEAFL for a year.

So did Andrew Ireland last night.
Aliir and/or Towers.

[barry]

Towers is our No.1 ruck with help from the resting full forward (Sinclair).

[Billericay]

Towers is our No.1 ruck with help from the resting full forward (Sinclair).

Other way round I think. Tonight they've named Cameron as starting ruckman. I wonder who will get more ruck contests?

[Ludwig]

Realistically it's very difficult for a ruckman to come back from an ACL reco in less than 18 months. Natanui is just starting to get some reserves level match practice now and Jonathon Ceglar, who is also 18 months into an ACL reco has delayed training due to a back complaint.

If I were Tom Harley, I wouldn't offer Naismith another contract. He is very doubtful even to play much in the NEAFL next year, so it will be 2� years out of AFL competition before he's a chance to play again in the AFL and by that time I think we will have moved on.

I'm sure there will be plenty of free agent ruckman available at the end of the year if we choose to go that route. Much depends on how things go in finding a good solution to not having a decent conventional ruckman.

Having the weakest ruck stocks in the AFL gives us the opportunity to find alternative solutions to turning an almost certain loss in the hitouts every game to our advantage.

[jono2707]

Young Liam Maze would have been handy NEAFL cover this year, but I think he's moved on and/or we can no longer access him as a top up due to his age. Can anyone confirm this?

An important flow on affect of our low ruck stocks is the impact on structures and the development of our young midfielders in the NEAFL if we don't have half decent ruckmen there.

[mcs]

Realistically it's very difficult for a ruckman to come back from an ACL reco in less than 18 months. Natanui is just starting to get some reserves level match practice now and Jonathon Ceglar, who is also 18 months into an ACL reco has delayed training due to a back complaint.

If I were Tom Harley, I wouldn't offer Naismith another contract. He is very doubtful even to play much in the NEAFL next year, so it will be 2� years out of AFL competition before he's a chance to play again in the AFL and by that time I think we will have moved on.

I'm sure there will be plenty of free agent ruckman available at the end of the year if we choose to go that route. Much depends on how things go in finding a good solution to not having a decent conventional ruckman.

Having the weakest ruck stocks in the AFL gives us the opportunity to find alternative solutions to turning an almost certain loss in the hitouts every game to our advantage.

Its such a shame for big Sam - like others I fear his body isn't going to let him achieve what he could at AFL level. But that's the way it goes - he won't be the first or last big man to not be able to ultimately survive the challenges and rigours of AFL footy.

[707]

Jake Lloyd, hamstring! Can anyone confirm this dreadful news.

[Markwebbos]

Jake Lloyd, hamstring! Can anyone confirm this dreadful news.

Where are you getting it from?

[O'Reilly Boy]

Where are you getting it from?

Any updates? I'm not seeing anything anywhere (but I'm not terribly well-connected)

[AB Swannie]

All I know is that Longmire said in the post game interview that Lloyd sat out the last quarter of the GWS game due to a tight quad but "he feels OK".

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/sydney-earn-early-bragging-rights-over-gws-after-11point-win-in-final-preseason-clash-before-round-1/news-story/4d330e729a0e2e6b568c94537723e881)