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Northshore_fc
22nd September 2004, 06:23 PM
AFL (NSW/ACT) Commission General Manager, Dale Holmes announced today in Wollongong that the Wollongong Lions will be promoted to the Premier Division in the Sydney AFL competition commencing in 2005

Great move for the competition!!

Norris Lurker
22nd September 2004, 07:07 PM
Congratulations to Wollongong, and that's definately a positive move. The drive down to the Gong next year will be interesting - it could be quite a home ground advantage for the new club.
Will there be a 10th team, or will there be a bye next season?

shearer
22nd September 2004, 07:29 PM
All teams will get two byes next year..

NL congrats on all the match reports and coverage you have done for season 2004, they have made great reading.

Rafters
22nd September 2004, 08:03 PM
good luck to the Lions

Troy G
22nd September 2004, 09:22 PM
St George will be thrilled with that decision ...not!

They should not be expanding the Premier Division of Sydney AFL. As I've said before Senior Footy is dead in Sydney! When is someone going to wake up? All the best people are getting out.

The clubs are just Junior clubs now, and it's all about the juniors and has been for some time. Which isn't a bad thing, but please let's not pretend and kid ourselves anymore that the be all and end all in Sydney is the Seniors because they're just not! Juniors get the money, juniors are priority number one!

Have as many Junior clubs as can be sustained I say, but it's time to bite the bullet with the Seniors and admit major change needs to happen and it has to happen now this off season. It's time to address the imbalance! It's time to admit we can't go on as we have been, because it's just not working.

The only way you are going to create interest in local Aussie Rules is if some Sydney teams at SENIOR LEVEL are competing in the Canberra AFL (aka State League) with the Canberra clubs,Wagga and the Swans Reserves.

At Senior Level they should be merging NOT expanding!!

It's obvious when you think about it and if two clubs do it and announce they are going to the Canberra AFL whilst keeping their junior identities in Sydney, the rest will follow.

The current eight in my view should become four:

North West Club: East Coast (Baulkham Hills) & Pennant Hills.
Inner West Club: Balmain & Wests.
South East Club: UNSW & St George.
North Shore (who've earned the right to stand alone).

Four new strong Sydney clubs would create real excitement. Imagine the feeling of Round One.

All four new clubs capable of getting greater sponsorship (wider area and recognition), good coaches (you could pay them more), good players (Rams would come home for a start) and greater support and members (people would actually know they exist).

Sadly, I'd keep Campbelltown as a Junior club for now until they can prove they are strong enough. I'm sure the AFL would help fund a State League but they aren't going to throw good money after bad as things are now!

A State League would also get widespread media coverage in the press, community radio would call games each weekend as happens in the football states and Canberra now and Fox Footy would cover it as they do the SydneyAFL now, but more people would be interested and actually watch!

Imagine these four brand new strong teams playing at the SCG, Telstra and Manuka as the curtain raisers against the Canberra clubs, Wagga and Swans Reserves.

It's the only way Senior football will survive in Sydney.

It's the only way the Swans Ressies will come back to the grassroots of Sydney, if there's a strong competition and playing at those grounds.

Bring it on!

Rowdy#8
23rd September 2004, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Norris Lurker
Congratulations to Wollongong, and that's definately a positive move. The drive down to the Gong next year will be interesting - it could be quite a home ground advantage for the new club.

It's more than the distance that makes it a home ground advantage. North Dalton Park sits on top of the hill and is exposed to a pretty strong ocean breeze - very tricky (and sometimes frustrating) ground to play on.

Good luck to the Lions. They are a very well managed club and I hope they do well.

Rowdy#8
23rd September 2004, 06:59 AM
Troy, I agree with you that there is a strong need for a state league to lift the standard and interest of our game in Sydney and NSW, but some of your points I do not agree with :-


Originally posted by Troy G
The only way you are going to create interest in local Aussie Rules is if some Sydney teams at SENIOR LEVEL are competing in the Canberra AFL (aka State League) with the Canberra clubs,Wagga and the Swans Reserves.

At Senior Level they should be merging NOT expanding!!

It's obvious when you think about it and if two clubs do it and announce they are going to the Canberra AFL whilst keeping their junior identities in Sydney, the rest will follow.

Campbelltown tried this in the mid 90's to seek a higher standard competition and most people in Sydney treated it as a betrayal. The experiment didn't work and they were back to the SFL within a couple of years. I think Sydney clubs will be relunctant to try this again, and the Canberra league would probably be relunctant to accept a Sydney side again.


Originally posted by Troy G
The current eight in my view should become four:

North West Club: East Coast (Baulkham Hills) & Pennant Hills.
Inner West Club: Balmain & Wests.
South East Club: UNSW & St George.
North Shore (who've earned the right to stand alone).

Four new strong Sydney clubs would create real excitement. Imagine the feeling of Round One.

All four new clubs capable of getting greater sponsorship (wider area and recognition), good coaches (you could pay them more), good players (Rams would come home for a start) and greater support and members (people would actually know they exist).



The idea of desecrating the existing Sydney clubs and forcing them to merge would not win much support. Some of the formation clubs, such as Balmain have a hundred years of history and they are not likely to give that up too easily.

An ideal state league setup IMO would consist of 16 teams - the swans reserves, 4 sides from the Canberra region, 3 sides from the Wagga region, 1 rep side from the central coast, 1 rep side from Newcastle, 1 rep side from the Central West AFL, 1 rep side from Wollongong/South Coast, and 4 from Sydney (the 4 from Sydney selected in their current state based on a financial and performance criteria - they will obviously attract better players playing in a league of this level. The remaining four to form a revamped 14 team Sydney league with the current SFA clubs).

Just my thoughts - may be being a tad ambitious but I am sure a comp such as this would generate more interest across the state from both supporters and sponsors, as well as providing the Swans with some top quality curtain raisers, and the Redbacks with some quality opposition, and the opportunity to base themselves in Sydney.


Originally posted by Troy G
admit major change needs to happen and it has to happen now this off season
There's no way you can expect any major changes next season. Clubs will be in pre season training in 2 months. Any major changes such as those that you propose would take at least a year to implement.


Originally posted by Troy G
Sadly, I'd keep Campbelltown as a Junior club for now until they can prove they are strong enough.
Short memory? Campbelltown were in the finals as recently as last year (2003), and in a grand final as recently as 2001. Every club goes through rough patches. They have a growing junior base and will be back in the fray soon enough.

shearer
23rd September 2004, 11:22 AM
Troy G, i am not speaking on behalf of the St George Crows Club but personally i think Wollongong will be a great inclusion into the league.

In my 15 years at St George we have had 3 Wollongong juniors play for the club, so its not like we will lose all our player base.

Wollongong 18's have been in the comp for a few years and they develop there own, they have never stolen a St George junior.

As for your pie in the sky idea about merging clubs so that we get the privilege of our asses being kicked in the ACTAFL league, i dont agree for one minute.

As you pointed out clubs are struglling, imagine the extra burden of the following in clubs balance sheets:

* Cost of Travel(hire of buses)
* Accomodation(especially in Wagga)
* Fuel costs to travel for players to Canberra.

You wont need clubs to merge they will fold like deck chairs.

The SFL has just come off the best finals series its had in ages, with the emergence of Henson Park & progressive people in the league such as Anthony Dignan & Simon Laughton. BUT you want to consigne clubs history to rubble and make them join a super league that they dont want to be apart of.

When all this was brought up a few years ago, the players spoke about it and 99% said they didnt want to have to travel to Wagga & Canberra every second weekend. The players have lives outside of football and while they want to win premierships they want to do it with there mates they have grown up with. NOT with blokes who have been the enemy for 10 years.

Blokes who want to chase the $$$ can already try there luck in Canberra, but you have to realise that the SFL is grassroots, with a lot of club loyaltys. I would hate to think how many good people would walk away from the sport if there beloved clubs had to merge.

We are doing our best to keep people involved with the club not give them a reason to walk away.

Troy G
23rd September 2004, 12:02 PM
Hi Rowdy,

The Campbelltown experiment failed because clubs are left to go it alone if they want to change the status quo! If they want better for their club. This is why change must be encouraged as a whole comp by the NSWACTAFLC in conjunction with the clubs and the AFL.

Campbelltown may have have come fourth in an eight team comp last year but this year it was last and never one a game!

I took the view that the Sydney component of the Canberra AFL (aka State League) must be very strong from the start to succeed. And sadly, CT would not be at this stage.
I'd love to see them strong in their region and I have been a supporter of CT for this reason in the past and still am.

It makes me laugh out loud when people bring up "tradition and history" as an argument to merging where the SFL is concerned. Tradition and history is only as strong as the people that know and care about it. I doubt there's more than ten people at each club that know the clubs history past the last five years.

And what great history?, what great traditions? People act as if we had mergers the sky would fall in, but as far as the 4 million people in Sydney are concerned it wouldn't even rate a mention and barely a ripple in the SydneyAFL itself!

For example, when the Dragons became the Crows did anyone care but half a dozen people? Was there outrage? Did it make the 6pm news, after all there's great tradition! If Balmain merged at Senior Level with Wests apart from the past what exactly would it be giving up?

When Baulkham Hills became East Coast? When North Shore became the Bombers? When Campbelltown became the Panthers? When the Swans played against them with one less?
When UNSW and the Bulldogs merged?

When Wests changed to Sydney Magpies the NSWACTAFLC were against it because it might hurt Collingwood! Talk about over estimating Wests importance in the Aussie Rules world.

So it's no argument! Clubs in the SFL simply aren't big enough and the comp strong enough, and the following large enough, and the interest in clubs generally, for this to be a factor.

PS. In a State League it's vital to get Sydney and ACT right first. Start small and strong, and grow with strength. One team in Wagga is the way to go first (not three) and I wouldn't even think about Newcastle, Central Coast and the Gong at Senior Level until Sydney and ACT are going strong and the structure is in place and all those other factors are happening sponsorship, members, media, players, coaching, club and comp admin etc.

Troy G
23rd September 2004, 12:07 PM
Shearer,

You're thinking as many do when I bring this up... as one club. Merger means two! The only single club I'm proposing to take on the ACT sides is North Shore! Forget what we have now, that's not what I'm proposing. Teams will have the same numbers, financial burden will ease because of increased opportunity for sponsorship via increased recognition and media and the AFL may even come to the party to assist with travel.

If the draw is done so that night games are only played between teams in the same city you won't need accommodation in Canberra at all. It's a three hour drive and it's not like it's every week because it's home and away! You play and drive back every fortnight. And you hire a bus so you don't have to drive by the way!

It's not much different to what the NSWAFL made clubs do before, compare this to say Campbelltown who had to wake up in the dark on Sunday mornings to be at the SCG in time to get ready/ warm up and play the 10am game? Compare that to waking while it's light to travel to Canberra to play in the arvo?

Tell me why that so bad and why that can't happen?

PS. Arses kicked??

You don't think a combined St George/ UNSW Senior side would match it with the ACT sides?

shearer
23rd September 2004, 12:11 PM
Very simple Troy to say that the world wouldnt fall in when you are an independant observer. I might be wrong but you have never been associated with any of the clubs in the SFL. Its very easy to say get rid of something that you have never been apart of.

Last year the St George Club had over 300 people to its 75TH anniversay, i reckon the club will get 15 when the 80th anniversary invite says "we would like to invite you to The Southern Sydney Bulldogs 80th anniversary".

As for the change of name from Dragons to Crows, Bears to Bombers etc, that was a provision the clubs had to meet to stay in the SFL. So basically do it or your out, easy choice for the clubs dont you think.


You still havent answered my question on how clubs would finance this and also acknowledged the point that clubs and PLAYERS dont want to be apart of this.

Your negative rants about the SFL are growing tiresome, maybe you should find another sport to annoy.

Troy G
23rd September 2004, 01:18 PM
I covered the competition in the media with results/fixtures/ interviews for five years I committed and invested enough of my time and my own money to the SFL in that time and I thought it would not be right to become a member of a club if I was covering the comp as a whole. Later, I just didn't have the desire.

I did stop. But Shearer, this is Australia mate I'm still entitled to an opinion and to put forward my views and debate this with criticism should I choose no matter how much people want the comp to remain criticism free. I think the end of the season is the perfect time to have this debate. It's just a shame that more people from across the Sydney AFL aren't putting their views and more independent observers! Or not observers, those that have never been to a game of SydneyAFL.

Do you really think 300 people is a good figure after 75 years? Apart from current players and their family and partners, how many from the past 75 years turned up?

Jacks
23rd September 2004, 02:53 PM
Apparently the clubs have had it wrong all these years. They have been wasting their time trying to find sponsors and sources of income when all they had to do was merge with someone and immediately a tonne of cash drops from the sky. Thanks for this amazing new fund raising idea Troy.
Can you explain to me why all the media outlets would immediately become interested in a state league when we can't even get the AFL Finals into Sydney live or events such as the Brownlow Medal.
The media coverage that the SydAFL gets now only comes about because of the hard work of local people that have been involved in the league for years. Should we see mergers to compete in a State League these people would no doubt start to follow he SFL Div 1 and then you would lose most of the coverage that we have now.
The SydAfl has no Major Sponsor at the moment and a State League with no media coverage other than community radio stations that have limited listeners is unlikely to attract one.
If clubs were to merge it will only result in those clubs at best maintaining the support they already have. There is no logical reason why a sponsor that is not involved in footy now would suddenly want to become involved because clubs started to merge and played in Canberra every second week. Not much incentive for Sydney based sponsors to be involved.

Troy G
23rd September 2004, 03:47 PM
That's the spirit, Jacks!

Norris Lurker
23rd September 2004, 05:59 PM
I couldn't see a league of Sydney and Canberra teams working. The travel involved would be too much to ask of players and teams working on a shoestring budget.
But one idea that could be worth considering - we already use a bit of English soccer terminology with premier league, first & second divisions; so maybe it may be worth bringing in some form of knockout FA Cup style tournament.
Teams in Sydney and Canberra would play local teams until the semi finals, with the top 2 from each league going into the later rounds. Maybe bring in one team from Riverina, Central West, Black Diamond and Farrer and make the quarter finals the first playoff round.
Clubs would only need to travel at most 3 times a year, so the impost wouldn't be too big; but would still enable statewide competition while preserving the history of the current clubs and the local Sydney AFL and Canberra AFL competitions would continue. Cup final day at Manuka or Henson Park would be a great showpiece for local footy.

Troy G
23rd September 2004, 07:12 PM
At least Norris you're offering something up, an idea that's food for thought, instead of digging your boot tags in....

Seems although others agree that more money, better standard, more supporters, more sponsorship, more recognition, more media coverage, more visibility, better grounds and facilities etc is needed...when push comes to shove the opinion changes to, all is well, nothing needs to change.

It's clear that the only way things will really change at SENIOR LEVEL with SydneyAFL is if the AFL / NSWACTAFLC drives it or the Swans force their hand.

Pity..a small bit of courage and vision could go a long way.

Rafters
23rd September 2004, 07:52 PM
The best system that I was ever involved with in NSW sport was the "Champion of Champions" tournament that soccer used to provide.

Basically everyone plays in their respective districts ... the winner of each comp then plays in the "Champion of Champions" tournament to decide the overall State champion.

In Ireland they have something similar but take it one step further with the All-Ireland club championship where the best team from each state plays off for the national club title ... sure it is a few extra games & sure NSW prob wouldn't win a title ever ... but didn't we say that a team from Brisbane would never win the AFL ??

This way you get to keep costs down throughout the year ... not bothering about having to travel every second week.

Come to think of it ... European club soccer is another good example ... would you have expected a Turkish team to ever do well??

Could be the idea to draw the media?? Mind you Sydney AFL has a regular show every Friday night on Fox Footy ... a huge step already.

cos789
25th September 2004, 08:38 PM
The Canbera -Sydney thing has been much discussed .I'd love to see it happen , but I think for a couple of reasons it is a dicey play .

IMO we need to change tack a little .Let's try and lift the standard of the SFL on our own .Woollongong is now in .We should be looking at a Newcastle or Central Coast side .Starts looking more like a State league then . More interest means more moneyand exposure .Then we might be in the position to re visit the Canberra idea .

DLH
27th September 2004, 12:37 PM
Surely from a strategic sense the corridor west from Parramatta to the Mountains is the area that must be represented. The most heavily populated and fastest growing region for young families in Sydney and you'd think the powers that be must be acutely aware of it.

Pekay
5th October 2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by DLH
Surely from a strategic sense the corridor west from Parramatta to the Mountains is the area that must be represented. The most heavily populated and fastest growing region for young families in Sydney and you'd think the powers that be must be acutely aware of it. thats true dlh but a few things.1.Penrith is,and always will be,a rugby league dominated area,and with Panthers winning in 03 and going close in 04,would be murder.dont get me wrong,but the AFL wouldnt go there for that reason.2.i have many friends at Penrith,so not to insult the boys(PICKLES ETC) but a move up would require some significant on-field success,of which thr Rams have suffered. im not backing my club(NORWEST) but the best place in sydney for a new Premier Div club is Blacktown.right in between Parra and Penrith would be ideal.Rooty Hill Olympic Zone could produce a ground,andwith the 2nd biggest industrial area in oz,limitless sponsorship potential also.but that s my thought anyhoo.feel free to comment.

DLH
5th October 2004, 04:54 PM
Don't ever be worried about insulting Pickles mate :D

I'd say you're right about Blacktown. Whilst it's just as League dominated an area as Penrith, it's a little more central which is advantageous. The AFL and Blacktown Council have also flagged an interest with Collingwood holding their Community Camps there. There just aren't the resources in the outer west insofar as players/coaching staff/sponsorship is concerned to run a Premier League club, much less a successful Division 1 outfit, and recruiting them from elsewhere is well nigh impossible as people just don't want to travel that far.

For these reasons I'd say Blacktown will be where any future club is located.

Coastal Boy
5th October 2004, 08:12 PM
In response to all of the suggestions, in my opinion the SFL has not advanced at all in the past 20 years so I would be supportive of a long-term plan to improve the competition to grow as much as the Swans have over the same period.

A couple of suggestions:
1) Go back to 18 a team and scrap the 6 under 23 players. The introduction of this has only weakened the SFL as experienced players drift to the SFA and elsewhere.
2) Give players an incentive to stay in the SFL by choosing the top, say 5-6 players under 25 each year, to do a pre-season with the Swans. There is stench associated with the SFL that good players must go to the ACTAFL or further south for any exposure and the SFL is a graveyard for players trapped in Sydney due to work commitments.

In my opinion the problem with the SFL is the hierarchy of the NSWAFL and above which, intentionally or not, seem to quash the advancement of senior footy in Sydney. Too harsh????

peterh_oz
6th October 2004, 12:36 AM
Can anyone name one "state league" where the competition is based OUTSIDE the capital city?

*pause for answer*

No I thought not.

The State League MUST be Sydney based. NSW media is run from Sydney. What Sydney media is going to report on a Canberra competition with a couple of Sydney teams?

Media coverage in Sydney is restricted to the local News Ltd newspaper - as part of the $500k media rights deal (it isn't only a TV deal!), Fox Footy (for an hour which no-one watches & again is part of the media contract!) plus 1 or 2 radio shows on Community Radio which, lets face it, only the die hards and a couple of dozen players listen to.

It is a long-term thing, NOT a short-term thing. We need to LIFT the standard of the SydneyAFL then maybe invite a couple of Canberra teams to join. Or overtake the ACTAFL as the state's best competition.

State League Soccer & District Cricket get better coverage/money/support than the Sydney AFL.

It CAN'T be done on crap grounds, which close for wet weather when a pidgeon pisses on it.

It CAN'T be done in a competition where the full forward has a beer & a smoke @ half time, and who's son is playing on the ball! (I must admit this has gone now but isn't that far into our history).

It CAN'T be done where coaches, players & facilities are "stuck in Sydney due to work committments" or aren't good enough for the Canberra competition.

It CAN'T be done where players are living their hobby.

It CAN'T be done where clubs and other officials spend their life protecting "their patch" from change. That nearly killed the VFL and is still keeping the SFL from growing.

It CAN'T be done where amateur umpiring (both on AND off the field) destroys matches (I'm an umpire - I've seen it. I'm allowed to say that).

It needs decisions to be made - both here AND in Melbourne. Here's how it could work:

Year 1:
Top 4 from each competition play the new NSWAFL State League, with 14 home & away rounds.

Year 2:
Bottom Sydney side and bottom Canberra side drop down to the local competition. Top 2 from each local comp (from year 1) come up to the NSWAFL. This creates a 10 team competition - 5 from Sydney & 5 from Canberra.

Year 3 & onwards:
Bottom 4 sides drop down to their local competition (wherever that may be ie Sydney or Canberra) and top 2 in each competition come up to the NSWAFL.

A similar promotion/relegation system occurs between the SFA/SFL and the Wagga/Riverina/ACTAFL competitions to ensure correct numbers are in the premier local competitions (whatever "correct" is deemed to be after this begins).

I know promotion/relegation isn't part of the Aussie culture, but it is happening anyway. If you're good (ie Wollongong) you come into the Premier League. If you're not, you get dropped to SFA (that name MUST be changed!).

It would even itself out over time, and those players currently living in Canberra hoping to be drafter OR wanting a better competition would be able to stay in Sydney.

It would need to be part of a 10yr plan, backed by the AFL, to cover setup & running costs etc until a proper sponsor is found. It would take a while to bring the competition up to a higer-than-QAFL standard. It CAN be done, no club would lose their identity, and would be better in the long run.

By the way, for the record I'm not criticising the work the AFLNSWACT is trying to do here - I know part of what they're up against. I remember the outcry when the Sydney u16 concept (ie play as a squad in the u18's) was first floated. But look how many draftees or near-draftees have come from Sydney in the last 5yrs, compared to the previous 5!

By the way, I wish AFL clubs & the footy record (& other media eg tv) would include the club AND previous club when listing where someone is drafted from. Eg Murray Bushrangers & Albury Tigers, or NSWACT Rams & Pennant Hills etc. I know the Rams aren't an entity as such, but to see someone came from Penno or St George ratherthan "ACTAFL" or "NSW" makes a dfference too but showing they are LOCALS not just "somewhere in NSW".

stellation
6th October 2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by peterh_oz
By the way, I wish AFL clubs & the footy record (& other media eg tv) would include the club AND previous club when listing where someone is drafted from. Eg Murray Bushrangers & Albury Tigers, or NSWACT Rams & Pennant Hills etc. I know the Rams aren't an entity as such, but to see someone came from Penno or St George ratherthan "ACTAFL" or "NSW" makes a dfference too but showing they are LOCALS not just "somewhere in NSW".

That is something that has been on my mind for ages and I am glad to see I am not the only one who thinks it would be an important change!

Do we know who the appropriate parties are to take such suggestions to? Do we get a voice in NSW/ACT AFL?

Rafters
7th October 2004, 08:35 AM
If ye go ahead & run a State league based in Sydney, will the NSWAL increase the salary cap for Sydney based clubs so that they can compete with Canberra clubs in recruiting players due to the cost of living by say $600kpa?????

Jacks
7th October 2004, 03:02 PM
Peterh, The hour show on Foxtel is not part of any media agreement but rather is on due to the hard work of some at the league and interested parties around the SydAFL.
Foxtel do supply the airtime each week but are not required to and could refuse to stop running the show if they felt it was not up to standard or was not rating well enough.
You have some good ideas but just thought I would point this out. Also the SFA is now the SydAFL First Division with the SFL being the Premier Division.
Agree with alot of your points now it is just a matter of getting omeone at a higher level to do something about it.

peterh_oz
8th October 2004, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Jacks
Peterh, The hour show on Foxtel is not part of any media agreement but rather is on due to the hard work of some at the league and interested parties around the SydAFL.
Foxtel do supply the airtime each week but are not required to and could refuse to stop running the show if they felt it was not up to standard or was not rating well enough.
You have some good ideas but just thought I would point this out. Also the SFA is now the SydAFL First Division with the SFL being the Premier Division.
Agree with alot of your points now it is just a matter of getting omeone at a higher level to do something about it.

Cool - thanks for that. Who pays for the SydneyAFL show? NSWAFL or is it a freebie from ex-baulko player & umpire Craig Abercrombie & Co? BTW they used to video our NorthsideJAFL Grand Final Day (all games) and sell the tapes (players/families etc wanted a memento of their son's grand final - a great idea). Maybe they still do - I'm not sure who does it now. Was very professionally done considering the market.

Jacks
8th October 2004, 09:37 AM
The NSW Commision pays for the show.
Digital Sports did used to do the Northside juniors but had to stop due to the clash in Grand Final scheduling with the Premier Division Grand Finals.