Should relegation/promotion also happen for Premier League?

[Rafters]

Early days I know but the bottom 3 sides in Premier League have pretty ordinary percentages & really unlikely to progress to finals footy in 2009. Now a 7 team comp at best with still 15 rounds to go!

I know that currently the Premier League is safe from relegation/promotion re-structure that the rest of the competitions abide by ... but do we need to consider to keep them competitive for the rest of the year ... and act as a carrot for up & coming clubs?

PS Top 4 in div one looks like an SFA table from a few years ago (UTS, Sydney Uni, UNSW, Manly)

[Norris Lurker]

Relegation from Premier Division would have a devastating effect on a well-run club that is having a bad year on the field, so it isn't something that should be taken lightly. But at the same time, a club in Premier Division shouldn't necessarily have the right to stay there forever.

I think that possibly there should be a possibility of promotion/relegation; but using other criteria and not just on-field success.
The league's Club of the Year points system could be a helpful guideline, or something similar - that for a club to be eligible for promotion they would need to win the First Division premiership and also achieve a pre-determined threshold of Club of the Year (COTY) points; while a team in Premier Division that got the wooden spoon could achieve immunity from relegation if they reach a pre-determined number of COTYpoints.
Promotion and relegation would only happen if the team that wins the First Division premiership wants to be promoted, doesn't already have a team in Premier Division, reaches the COTY points threshold to be promoted and the wooden spoon team in Premier Division fails to reach the COTY immunity threshold points.

[Pace To Burn]

Early days I know but the bottom 3 sides in Premier League have pretty ordinary percentages & really unlikely to progress to finals footy in 2009. Now a 7 team comp at best with still 15 rounds to go!

I know that currently the Premier League is safe from relegation/promotion re-structure that the rest of the competitions abide by ... but do we need to consider to keep them competitive for the rest of the year ... and act as a carrot for up & coming clubs?

PS Top 4 in div one looks like an SFA table from a few years ago (UTS, Sydney Uni, UNSW, Manly)

You answered your own question. Easts, East Coast, Wests and Penno should make up the top 4 barring injuries etc and the top three will be fairly dominant especially if sides aren't at full strenght but fifth spot is up for grabs IMHO

[Hawknik]

but fifth spot is up for grabs IMHO

Pace, generally agree with you champ, totally correct with 5th spot up for grabs, but only between St George, Syd Uni and Nth Shore. There is a large divide between the bottom three and the rest, you have to admit....

Interesting idea Rafters. There was discussion for promotion/relegation through Premier League, but it was agreed against. However, I personally, do not think the Premier League Clubs would ever go for it, they seem to be the controlling majoity...... The likes of UTS or Manly would be more than competitive against the Prem League sides (NB ? 2010 may well prove that). I believe the Premier League Clubs would be against relegation?.

Another factor is if AFL HQ believes in developing an area (such as Wollongong) and that team did not perform, would it be more beneficial to keep them in the big league OR to drop them? Schools of thought on both of those I think, which was why the agreement was to make it ?AFL-controlled?. Tough call, but it would certainly put the pressure on Prem Div sides to perform and even develop youth to continue a evolution of players.

Agree with Norris, 1 bad year should not penalise the Club, things evolve (eg Campbelltown / Balmain strength of years gone by), however, continued poor performance (both on and off) should result in relegation. How that works is up for discussion. Further, it gives other Clubs the chance to move up and take that place.

PS - I think the last 3 sides in Premier League would be touched up by UTS/Manly in Div 1.

[The Rooster]

should be relegation and promotion.. but every 3 years... and each year points awarded for where they finish. with also goals scored in 3 grades going towards total score.

[Mr PHD]

Gents

All of you make valid points.

If such a relegation system had been in place over the last 15 years, a team like ECE (Baulkham Hills) could be in 5th grade this year. (They seem to be doing well of late)



However, to move forward there should be much more emphasis on the promoting Premier league teams way above the others. At present there is not much difference between how a Premier or 2nd Division team is run (although some clubs are at the top of the cycle (ECE,UNSW) and others on the rebound (Campbelltown/Balmain).

There are many players in lower divisions who should be playing Premier League. What is there real incentive to play at a higher level if they get paid the same at a lower division club and be with their mates????

Thats why the promotion of UTS and Manly is fruitless. Why arent the better players from Manly playing for North Shore and Uts playing for Balmain and Sydney Uni?????
The segregation of reserves for CTown and Balmain does no favours at all for these 2 Clubs. The League may have considered their options but did not choose correctly.

Suggestions - the 10 Premier League teams given player payment subsidies to attract one ex-afl player and 2-3 elite players from outside the competition.
This would alleviate and to some extent eliminate the amount of player poaching and improve the quality of the competition.

At present, if a team like Wollongong had a sponsor of $150,000 next year Im sure they would win the comp. Their team would be made up of the top 2 players from each Premier club BUT the competition as a whole would not improve. (I could name this team today!)

There are 100s of solutions along similar lines. What we all should be striving for is to see the top players in NSW play for the Premier League Teams and concentrate on bettering the whole competition by sharing offfield strategies from Club to Club who currently go through cycles of administration levels that ultimately effects their playong personnel.

[Pekay]

Keeping my fingers crossed that this is the first thread of late that doesn't denigrate into the usual clap trap and goes off subject to be locked by admin. Valid discussion, valid points, everything else should be in the sandpit.

[Steamboat]

Hawknik, would disagree with your suggestion that last 3 would be touched up by Manly & UTS.
Having been involved with the rep side that went away to Wagga last year, had a good look at the calibre of player that was playing at that level and would say that Manly & UTS would go with them for 70% of game before getting a similar lesson to what C Town have got in the last 2 weeks.

Top 5 or so players would hold their own, others would struggle, whilst Edwards & Chivas would be classed as some of the better players in that league last year and are playing well at the moment with C Town, the consistency of effort is not there and having to perform week in week out against the ECE, UNSW etc would find them out.

I think only a half dozen or so from each of Manly & UTS would get into the senior side from bottom 3, but many would disagree.

[tara]

Hawknik, would disagree with your suggestion that last 3 would be touched up by Manly & UTS.
Having been involved with the rep side that went away to Wagga last year, had a good look at the calibre of player that was playing at that level and would say that Manly & UTS would go with them for 70% of game before getting a similar lesson to what C Town have got in the last 2 weeks.

Top 5 or so players would hold their own, others would struggle, whilst Edwards & Chivas would be classed as some of the better players in that league last year and are playing well at the moment with C Town, the consistency of effort is not there and having to perform week in week out against the ECE, UNSW etc would find them out.

I think only a half dozen or so from each of Manly & UTS would get into the senior side from bottom 3, but many would disagree.

Sorry Steamboat whilst I understand your your logic Hawknik is spot on - UTS in particular IMO - How do you compete with a team that has 160 on its books and has at least 120 turn up each night to train? The two players from our club who went on the trip were not even close to the top 5 players in our team and we were division 2. Your old and wise enough to know that they guys that went on the trip were not necessarily the cream of the crop.

[Pace To Burn]

Pace, generally agree with you champ, totally correct with 5th spot up for grabs, but only between St George, Syd Uni and Nth Shore. There is a large divide between the bottom three and the rest, you have to admit...
Interesting idea Rafters. There was discussion for promotion/relegation through Premier League, but it was agreed against. However, I personally, do not think the Premier League Clubs would ever go for it, they seem to be the controlling majoity...... The likes of UTS or Manly would be more than competitive against the Prem League sides (NB ? 2010 may well prove that). I believe the Premier League Clubs would be against relegation?.

Another factor is if AFL HQ believes in developing an area (such as Wollongong) and that team did not perform, would it be more beneficial to keep them in the big league OR to drop them? Schools of thought on both of those I think, which was why the agreement was to make it ?AFL-controlled?. Tough call, but it would certainly put the pressure on Prem Div sides to perform and even develop youth to continue a evolution of players.

Agree with Norris, 1 bad year should not penalise the Club, things evolve (eg Campbelltown / Balmain strength of years gone by), however, continued poor performance (both on and off) should result in relegation. How that works is up for discussion. Further, it gives other Clubs the chance to move up and take that place.

PS - I think the last 3 sides in Premier League would be touched up by UTS/Manly in Div 1.

Hawk, Dont agree with you that we aren't in the running with Saints etc. We will def compete with those sides at full strength and we still have a couple to come in. It wont be easy with a young side with consistancy but were upbeat

As you said on field can flow from year to year and these sides could get alot stronger with a couple more recruits. i think youl find most clubs in the premier league are all run fairly well. Wollongong is extremely well run and we would have close to the best sponsorship base bar East Coast who have a full time employee.

Id like to have some money on the Bats and Manly touching us up. Manly only beat East Coast Ressies by 14 at home this week

[Steamboat]

Sorry Steamboat whilst I understand your your logic Hawknik is spot on - UTS in particular IMO - How do you compete with a team that has 160 on its books and has at least 120 turn up each night to train? The two players from our club who went on the trip were not even close to the top 5 players in our team and we were division 2. Your old and wise enough to know that they guys that went on the trip were not necessarily the cream of the crop.

Tara, whilst that may be the case with what went away from your club,and availability did play a part, of those that went away,the rep players that went to Wagga filled 9 of top 12 in Snow medal-including top 3,BOG in grand final and took out at least 4 club B&Fs from memory,so i would say that availability considered & selection criteria we got close to the best.

The comment was that Manly & UTS would touch up the bottom 3 in premier league at the moment, and i disagreed because i feel that there would not be more than 6 or so from each of those clubs that would make it into those premier sides, most would be in the ressies.

[Hawknik]

All great points guys, agree with Pekay that this thread does not dissolve into crap banter and club bashing.

Keepp it going.

PS - still believe Manly & UTS would cover the Prem bottom 3.
PPS - Pace, I hope so.