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Thread: 2009 Draft Reflection

  1. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCGonasunnyday View Post

    Looking at 2005 - 2007 it is probably pretty disappointing. Imagine our current team with Cyril Rioli and Chris Dawes for example.

    Don't forget Cyril was temperamental and had attitude problems near drafting, so that's why no other clubs pushed hard for him. Now with his constant soft tissue injuries, I fear we may not see his talent for extended periods of time of his career.

  2. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBS1 View Post
    Fantastic drafting , just shows you don't have to bottom out and Tank like some of the pathetic Melbourne clubs !!
    We were lucky enough to get some high draft picks for volume (2 or more players) in trade deals including the Jolly deal. This isn't going to happen every year as we may not want to trade the player they want, Ryno is a good example. I don't think we have any top line players we want to trade at the moment but there are a few on the cusp, White & Merridith come to mind & we won't get no1 Draft picks for them, not unless the recruiters at the other club are fools.

  3. #15
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    The '08, '09 & '10 Drafts were all fantastic. We have some very good depth & it will be there for a few seasons to come. What is really nice is picking Parker up at 44 & AJ up at around 60 or 70 ish, what a win.

  4. #16
    Senior Player Plugger46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post
    I called this trade a disaster at the time and it seems I was on the mark, particulary if Meredith doesn't make the cut at the end of the year.

    This the output to date for the respective clubs, with the two Saints boys good for another 4-5 seasons yet

    Schneider 77 games 113 goals
    Dempster 56 games 8 goals

    Meredith 14 games 8 goals

    How depressing, particularly when we are crying out for someone (anyone) who can play forward
    You're looking at that too simplistically. In that same trade period we traded out our 2nd round pick for Mattner - yes they were seperate trades but it's all about managing your list. At the time we were reported to have salary cap concerns so off-loading those two guys for a 2nd rounder wasn't such a bad result IMO.
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  5. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plugger46 View Post
    You're looking at that too simplistically. In that same trade period we traded out our 2nd round pick for Mattner - yes they were seperate trades but it's all about managing your list. At the time we were reported to have salary cap concerns so off-loading those two guys for a 2nd rounder wasn't such a bad result IMO.
    Agree. If you look at the trade as an indirect swap of Mattner for Schneider / Dempster it stacks up reasonably well. Dempster was traded to give him opportunities that Roos didn't think would come his way at the Swans. And Mattner has been good for us in a similar way to Schneider being good for the Saints.

    Bear in mind that at the time we needed a HBFer more than a smallish HFF because we also had Buchanan (before he lost form) and up-and-comer Moore (before the interchange rules made life very hard for a player without natural endurance).

  6. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz View Post
    Agree. If you look at the trade as an indirect swap of Mattner for Schneider / Dempster it stacks up reasonably well. Dempster was traded to give him opportunities that Roos didn't think would come his way at the Swans. And Mattner has been good for us in a similar way to Schneider being good for the Saints.

    Bear in mind that at the time we needed a HBFer more than a smallish HFF because we also had Buchanan (before he lost form) and up-and-comer Moore (before the interchange rules made life very hard for a player without natural endurance).
    Now, now, now Liz enough of the logic. We should never let it get in the way of a good whinge...........

  7. #19
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    lol^

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    A couple of things don't add up on the salary cap issue and viewing the trades together

    If we had salary cap issues I can see Dempster for draftee saving some coin (although not a great deal), but are you seriously suggesting that Schneider was on significantly more coin than Mattner? I find that proposition highly improbable

    Secondly, we still had Ablett, Mathews and Crouch (approaching retirement) on the list at that time, surely it would have been more prudent to cut/trade one of those instead of a younger player about to enter the prime of his career

    Thirdly, whilst I agree wholeheartedly that Mattner has been very good for us, quality small forwards are alot harder to find than utilities who are a dime a dozen. Just look at how much we are crying out for TDL to come good at the moment.

    Finally, Dempster is a half back flanker with a booming kick and could have been developed into that role thus giving him those opportunities. Whilst he's probably not as good a player as Marty I don't think he's a huge downgrade.

    So in summation we traded the best small forward we have had (I don't count Micky O as a small) in the last decade and a half back flanker/utility for a mediocre draft pick which it looks like we stuffed up and a slightly upgraded half back flanker/utility.

    Brilliant
    Last edited by liz; 13th July 2011 at 02:25 PM. Reason: No changes made - "ediit" was an error and original post has been restored

  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post
    A couple of things don't add up on the salary cap issue and viewing the trades together

    If we had salary cap issues I can see Dempster for draftee saving some coin (although not a great deal), but are you seriously suggesting that Schneider was on significantly more coin than Mattner? I find that proposition highly improbable

    Secondly, we still had Ablett, Mathews and Crouch (approaching retirement) on the list at that time, surely it would have been more prudent to cut/trade one of those instead of a younger player about to enter the prime of his career

    Thirdly, whilst I agree wholeheartedly that Mattner has been very good for us, quality small forwards are alot harder to find than utilities who are a dime a dozen. Just look at how much we are crying out for TDL to come good at the moment.

    Finally, Dempster is a half back flanker with a booming kick and could have been developed into that role thus giving him those opportunities. Whilst he's probably not as good a player as Marty I don't think he's a huge downgrade.

    So in summation we traded the best small forward we have had (I don't count Micky O as a small) in the last decade and a half back flanker/utility for a mediocre draft pick which it looks like we stuffed up and a slightly upgraded half back flanker/utility.

    Brilliant
    Sean and Adam were both coming up for a new contract, though- so if they were to stay any previous amounts would have increased a fair bit. I expect Adam would have looked for $200-250k and Sean for at least $100-150k over a couple of years- Marty I imagine was worth up to $200k p.a. but from memory they offered him 3 years so he may have come for around $175k p.a. as a draftee Brett would have been on a standard $50k deal. I'm being a tad conservative on estimates (apart form Brett). If we were as close to the salary cap has been suggested, you'd think that would probably make a difference- I assume they also front/back loaded Marty's contract to whatever suited them as well.

    Not sure if match payments count to the cap as well, but they probably gambled that Adam and Marty's match payments would even out but Sean even as a depth guy would probably get in 10 games that they'd assume a draftee would not- so an extra $28k there as well.
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  10. #22
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    caj23
    So in summation we traded the best small forward we have had (I don't count Micky O as a small) in the last decade and a half back flanker/utility for a mediocre draft pick which it looks like we stuffed up and a slightly upgraded half back flanker/utility.
    I suspect that, at the time, they believed Buchanan was a slightly better player in a similar role, and that Moore was wasting away in the reserves and could come in and do a similar role. Hence the net loss to the team from trading out Schneider would be relatively negigible. It is also possible that they would have been just as happy to trade Buchanan as Schneider if a similar offer had been received for him. One of the objectives of trading is to trade out types you have in surplus and trade in types you have a shortage of.

    With the benefit of hindsight, Schneider has held his form far better than Buchanan, and Moore's lack of endurance has become an issue. But, on the evidence available at the time, I don't think it was an unreasonable view to hold.

  11. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post
    So in summation we traded the best small forward we have had (I don't count Micky O as a small) in the last decade and a half back flanker/utility for a mediocre draft pick which it looks like we stuffed up and a slightly upgraded half back flanker/utility.

    Brilliant
    As Liz pointed out Schneider and Buchanan were viewed as being pretty comparable at the time. Also, whether you classify Mickey O as small and large at the time Mickey O, Barry Hall and Ryan O'keefe (playing more as a HFF than the mid he is today) we had a pretty compotent forward line. Clearly with time Buchanan went backwards and O'keefe moved into the mid but the coaches don't have the 20/20 hindsight that forum posters do.

    Also you suggested that we cut/trade Matthews, Ablett, Crouch as they were aproaching retirement, for that very reason who would trade for them and what could we expect? So its either cut them for nothing or trade Schneider for something.

    Lastly on Schneids, yes he's been good but describing him as quality is a bit generous in my view. He's had issues with accuracy, particularly in big games, had periods out of the Saints team and never really developed the engine to play in the mids.

    As for Dempster he's been far from a regular in the Saints and is more than a small downgrade vs Mattner in what he offers IMHO.

    Finally, surely criticism of Meredith also has a touch of 20/20 hindsight about it as most tend to agree on his quality with injury being the biggest blight of his career - not necessarily something to blame on recruiters.

  12. #24
    The other thing the OP has neglected to mention is the rookie draft over that period.
    Throw in Jack, Smith, Grundy and Bevan and the '02-'08 period doesn't look quite as grim. Also Pyke was recruited at the end of '08 and can't really be counted as a 2010 draft pick even though that is the method used to elevate rookies now.

    Also to address any deficiencies in that age group of players we've brought in capable players from other clubs who originally came from those drafts. Kennedy, McGlynn, Mumford, and to a lesser degree Spangher and Everitt.
    And dare I say it, the reason we did so well at the end of 2009 was that we finished fairly low on the ladder and had two big name players to give away.

    The fact of the matter is, the later you sit in the draft the more guesswork there is involved - that's the price we pay for being so successful over that period.
    It's easy to say we passed over Rioli, but Goodes was passed over 42 times, and O'Keefe 55!
    And looking at players we "missed out on", Rioli is the only obvious one. Flicking through the draft lists from those years, the only other A-Grader that went after our first pick was LeCras - and he went at pick 44!

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