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Thread: 2015 academy discussion thread (with some FS thrown in for good measure)

  1. #1

    2015 academy discussion thread (with some FS thrown in for good measure)

    "be tough, only when it gets tough"


  2. #2
    "The academies must continue, but should be run independently by AFL NSW/ACT and AFL Queensland. With the right people at the helm, there is no reason why the AFL can't continue to convert elite young sportsmen like Heeney to Australian football."

    it is fair point !
    "be tough, only when it gets tough"


  3. #3
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    I don't think anyone would argue that if the AFL could run the academies that are currently being run by the clubs, it would be a fairer outcome, draft-wise. The problem is that the AFL has failed over the last decade to achieve anything meaningful in terms of developing players in NSW to draft level. They had some modest success a few years back in Queensland around the time that Tippett and White were coming through, but that didn't seem to be sustained.

    The scholarship scheme was half-hearted and the results show it.

    The academies have barely had time to warm up yet, but the early results are promising. Could they be run just as well by the AFL if they truly had the appetite to do so? It's hard to tell. There doesn't seem to be any reason why not, but maybe the AFL just doesn't understand what is required the same way the local clubs do. And surely it has to be more cost effective to tap into the existing infrastructure (including the ability to call on players / club coaches to help out) than to start things up from scratch.

    It probably will be appropriate to shift ownership in a few years, but reckon the current model needs to be given time to take root first. The only problem is that, in Heeney and Mills (and maybe Keays) it has been slightly too successful too quickly for its own good.

  4. #4
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    The attraction of the club-run academies is that the kids see a pathway to their home club. Would Heeney have picked up Aussie rules if the lure was just an AFL list rather than the Swans list? I doubt it.
    Those who have the greatest power to hurt us are those we love.

  5. #5
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Nick Bowen's stance on the Academy System

    Nick Bowen is your typical Victorian who wants to have everything others have got. But of course he, like his footy club the Roos, doesn't want to pay for it. He wants us to develop the talent up here so the Victorians can come raiding. A bit like Hawks have used the Free Agent system really. What if Hawks get Dangerfield, will anything be said? Simply the answer is no, they are Victorian! Their precious VFL which they now call the AFL is being won too often by foreigners. They seem to have forgotten Hawks won the last two premierships.

    But Xenophobia is xenophobia no matter who it is against. It is the hatred or suspicion of the other or different person. We are different because we live North of the Murray and there has always been a great hatred and suspicion of anything North of the Murray by those down South. Nick Bowen epitomises this suspicion and hatred in his part of this article. Not once did either of these gentlemen mention that we pay for the academies and the AFL only manages to front up with $250,000 of the $5million to run them. At no time did they mention that the NSW & Qld share of the development fund combined would be only a quarter of the money allocated to an Victorian AFL club. Not once did they mention the state government allocated schools sporting funding enjoyed by Vic, SA & WA for AFL footy. Noty once did they mention the AFL funded, from the development fund, TAC Cup. Not once did they mention the amount of money guaranteed to Victorian AFL clubs if they get into trouble.

    At no time did either of them mention that we and our sponsors PAY for the ACADEMIES!!! Even though Michael Whiting was supposed to be pro the Academies and us retaining rights to them.

    Should NSW and Queensland clubs retain their rights to academy players? - AFL.com.au

    But then again we know what this is don't we? We do! It is just another of Gillon McLachlan's little PR exercises to get public sentiment against the academies and our preferential picks. Clever bastard. But not a very nice man. As CEO of the AFL he is supposed to be neutral. But he isn't. There is a good reason to believe he just hates the Swans! Every comment, every action so far supports this scenario. I challenge Gillon McLachlan to meet with Swans fans, en mass, telling us why all the hatred and xenophobia against the Swans?

  6. #6
    pr. dim-melb; m not f
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    I agree with Liz that the academies have barely started to feed into the seniors and more time is needed before we or anyone else will be in a position to make a judgement about whether they can be left as they are or changed in some way.

    It would be very foolish to make changes on the basis of a happy fluke delivering a player like Heeney.

    And given extraordinarily arbitrary banning of the Swans from the trade table last year, the AFL should be the last body to be running the academies.

    By all means think about whether the academies need tinkering, but not before we have had the opportunity to see how they function over a few more seasons.
    He reminds him of the guys, close-set, slow, and never rattled, who were play-makers on the team. (John Updike, seeing Josh Kennedy in a crystal ball)

  7. #7
    Veterans List Ludwig's Avatar
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    Wolftone makes some very good points. I think he is right that much of this 'debate' about the academies is a ploy to drum up negativity about the supposed advantages the academy clubs have.

    If you take the draft advantages of the academy bidding in isolation, sure, it will show that the 4 northern clubs have an advantage. But as Woltone says, it ignores many factors, especially the investment that sponsors make to the academies, like QBE, that could go to other beneficial programs, like improved facilities.

    The goal should be to make the whole AFL system fairer, and the draft is just one factor. New clubs, like GWS and GC won't have FS selection opportunities that other clubs have. There also needs to be something in place to compensate for the demographic imbalance which favours the traditional AFL states. Once the demographics change enough to offset the go-home factor, then it would be fair to change the academy system. What some in the AFL are saying is that they wanted clubs like the Swans to invest a million a year in the academies, but can only keep them if it turns out to be a waste of money that doesn't produce any players.

    The Swans are in a bit of an enviable position in that they have become a 'destination' club, so it seems as though the academy is just another advantage for an already strong club; and this is true. When the AFL tries to reduce the advantages of the rich clubs with a spending tax, Hawthorn and Collingwood are all over it and get it watered down.

    The Swans have given back enough for the moment with the COLA and the trade ban. Next in line is the academy. Then they'll want Buddy to play with one hand tied behind his back.

  8. #8
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    If the academies were run by the afl, would the players still play in the Swans magoos? If they were, then shouldn't we be compensated in some way for helping train players who will be picked up by other clubs?
    I know, maybe we should get first pick of them or something...?

  9. #9
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    The problem with the AFL is they don't want to pay for developing NSW & Qld but are quite happy to put millions that will be unlikely to reap benefits for at least 10 years into International Academies. They are happy for the NE clubs to pay for everything and the academies to benefit essentially the Victorian clubs. This will make the NE clubs weaker and we still have the problem of homeward shift south and west.

    If the AFL were happy to totally take over the financing and running of the academies then all clubs should benefit equally. But until then they should bugger off and keep their dirty hands off our boys.

    The AFL in conjunction with the Victorian State Government has helped finance these facilities;

    Essendon $26.5mil.

    Collingwood $10mil ( part funded by AFL & State Govt)

    Western Bulldogs have have had AFL assistance for years now they are buying a $27mil Entertainment Precinct. Where did the money come from? You guessed AFL & Vic Gov.

    Saints; Not long ago the Saints moved into a new facility at seaford that was developed especially for them by the Frankston council.

    Hawthorn; Very soon there will be an announcement of the new Hawthorn training facility. But it won't just be a facility it will be a NEW home ground shared with another two clubs. This will be the third Venue in Melbourne.

    North were given duel funding to redevelop their training facilities some years ago.

    Brisbane Lions are in a problematic situation as most of the fans don't want them to move as far as they are going for their new facility. They also have a cash problem. The AFL has told them they won't fund any more than they have and the state government has reneged on their deal leaving the Lions needing over $10mil. Bet that wouldn't happen to a VFL/AFL Club.

  10. #10
    Just read this. It doesn't seem like a fair dinkum debate to me. This topic is far more in depth than a couple of paragraphs.

    The AFL/VFL is in a sticky situation on this one. They would love to take away the benefits that the four NSW/Qld clubs get from the academies in order to appease McGuire, Newbold and Gordan. However if they take away too much of the benefit the clubs will simply walk away from the four academies. I know that this is what the Swans would do. If that happens the AFL will have to take over the funding, and they can't afford it. In addition it would be extremely embarrasing to the AFL brand in those two states, setting it back at least a decade. Why would a parent encourage a son to play AFL or join an academy if the future is so uncertain? I only hope that the AFL is smart enough to realise this but I won't be holding my breath.

    I expect the AFL to introduce some sort of a rating system on the academy players resulting in multiple draft picks being required for the better players. I just hope that a team won't need to trade out in order to do so. It should apply to the picks available to the club.

    I think all of this is a knee jerk reaction to the anomaly we've seen with Heeney and Mills. After Mills there don't appear to be any guns in the next couple of years.

  11. #11
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    The current Academy rules can work for the Swans, but can also be manipulated by other teams to disadvantage the Swans and put them in a very difficult position.

    Just say for argument sake that the Swans Academy had a player who was rated at between pick 35 - 45 in the draft ratings. The Swans first round pick was at pick 15. Collingwood had pick 8 and decided to bid for a Swans Academy player who is rated 35-45 by most recruiters. Sydney would then have to pay overs and use pick 15 for that player. If they decide to be pragmatic and let Collingwood take that player, the morale and trust of every player and parent at the Swans Academy would be jolted for many years to come.

    I would not be surprised if Victorian clubs don't start playing this tactic and forcing Academy clubs to pay above the odds for their players.

    It's a danger for clubs to play that tactic and have their bluff called, but an Academy would face huge ramifications if the academy club did not back a player who believed they were always likely to be drafted by their local club.

    The system can be used both ways. The Swans probably paid too much for Hiscox.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt80 View Post
    The current Academy rules can work for the Swans, but can also be manipulated by other teams to disadvantage the Swans and put them in a very difficult position.

    Just say for argument sake that the Swans Academy had a player who was rated at between pick 35 - 45 in the draft ratings. The Swans first round pick was at pick 15. Collingwood had pick 8 and decided to bid for a Swans Academy player who is rated 35-45 by most recruiters. Sydney would then have to pay overs and use pick 15 for that player. If they decide to be pragmatic and let Collingwood take that player, the morale and trust of every player and parent at the Swans Academy would be jolted for many years to come.

    I would not be surprised if Victorian clubs don't start playing this tactic and forcing Academy clubs to pay above the odds for their players.

    It's a danger for clubs to play that tactic and have their bluff called, but an Academy would face huge ramifications if the academy club did not back a player who believed they were always likely to be drafted by their local club.

    The system can be used both ways. The Swans probably paid too much for Hiscox.
    Quite possibly, but the club pretty much knew what they were getting given he's been in their system. If they didn't think he was worth the pick they used based on their intimate knowledge of him, they would have gone for someone else

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