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Thread: Match Day Thread Rnd. 5. Sydney V GWS. SCG. 19.25 pm.

  1. #277
    McVeigh for Brownlow RogueSwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolftone57 View Post
    ... two players I think have put themselves above the team, Kizza and Smithy. Both pathetic..
    OMG what an overreaction. They know their game so much better than we do and must believe they will pay themselves back into form. I am pretty sure Goodes is the only example of a footballer dropping themselves too. So are all the other out of form players selfish too? Following the above logic means most of the seniors should request a week or two in the 2s but won't because they are all to selfish. I mean Kennedy's form has been r ordinary all year but no one is questioning him and whether he is being selfish.


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  2. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandridge View Post
    Politicians can defend themselves. As was stated in an earlier post, people with intellectual special needs often can't and need others to speak up for them.

    Several posters in this thread have explained why the term "retard" is offensive to people with intellectual needs. Yet, you contend that people with intellectual disabilities and the people who love them should just accept hearing the word "retard" because people's rights to free speech are more important. How about we call out people who say disgusting, disrespectful, discriminatory things and make our country a better place that way?
    HUGE +1

  3. #279
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogueSwan View Post
    OMG what an overreaction. They know their game so much better than we do and must believe they will pay themselves back into form. I am pretty sure Goodes is the only example of a footballer dropping themselves too. So are all the other out of form players selfish too? Following the above logic means most of the seniors should request a week or two in the 2s but won't because they are all to selfish. I mean Kennedy's form has been r ordinary all year but no one is questioning him and whether he is being selfish.


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    Kennedy has not been anywhere as bad as these guys. Plus he's been targeted by the opposition.

  4. #280
    Veterans List Ludwig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09183305 View Post
    I scrawny man with a Charlie Chaplin moustache in 1930s/40s Germany did some unacceptable stuff. Many people of the day knew that it happened and accepted that it happened. Does not make it right! Now before you jump up & down saying it's not remotely the same, of course I know that and that is why such reasoning is idiotic. Just because people know it happens or accepts that it happens, does not make it acceptable.


    Seriously, how on earth does that make it ok?! Ludwig, I don't know you or anything about you but if I was to call you [insert: a homophobic + racist + offensive to intellectually challenged + derogatory to fiscally disadvantaged] obviously not knowing that you were or weren't (or I didn't believe you were) and yelled it loud enough for others to hear (even though they knew you probably weren't any of those offensive terms) ... 1) how would you feel and 2) how could you possibly believe it's acceptable? Sure, I've scaled it up but you clearly accept that Heath Shaw's "tame" version is not unacceptable.


    There is freedom of speech and then there is having no understanding of what is just not acceptable. I can tell you, I'd have been happy if someone stuck some duct tape over that German Charlie Chaplin look-alike in the early 1930s before people started listening to him.

    I'm watching the episode of the ABC "You can't say that" about Downs syndrome and I've just watched a middle aged woman with DS break down emotionally as she talks about the "R" word. Now I'm angry at this whole topic. Ludwig, please take a moment to watch it, think about your right to freedom of speech and exercise your right not to speak on this topic.
    People on RWO know that I am a humanist and a defender of civil liberties.

    We all realise that Heath Shaw used a word that is offensive to the intellectually challenged. I have very close friends who have had careers working with people with downs syndrome and I know something about this issue. This is not the point. I am not defending Shaw. I understand that what he said was not acceptable. So, what action was taken? He was publicly criticised and he apologised. Do you think there should have been further punishment for what he said? Does the punishment fit the crime?

    I have tried to make the point that there are bigger issues at stake and we need to be careful about limiting freedom of speech, although some limits are certainly warranted. We should ask ourselves:

    • Who will decide what words are acceptable and what words are not?
    • Who will decide in what circumstances certain words can be used or not used?
    • Who will decide when parties are offended and what punishment is to be meted out?
    • Who will decide where the lines for free speech are to be drawn?


    I don't wish for any disadvantaged group to be offended. But I also don't want people to arbitrarily decide what can and cannot be said. Even if I am personally offended by what someone says, and this does happen, I would never deny others the right to say it. It is better for me to be offended than to deny someone's right to speak freely without fear of retribution.

  5. #281
    Go Swannies! Site Admin Meg's Avatar
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    Match Day Thread Rnd. 5. Sydney V GWS. SCG. 19.25 pm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    Longmire was on the On The Couch show and said KJ will miss several games to get his hip working better and find form.
    I really feel for Kieran. He did the post-game interview after the GWS match and was clearly really devastated by the match and the position the Swans were in. It is now pretty obvious he was probably in pain as well. As fans we do expect a lot from our players.

  6. #282
    Carpe Noctem CureTheSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    It was meant to demean a hurt. But we know that kids insult each other all the time. I think this is an important part of our learning experience, finding the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not, learning what hurts us and what hurts others. Most do learn from these experiences and adjust our behaviour in adulthood. Clearly far too many do not.

    Childhood and adolescence is a time for learning through a series of positive and negative feedbacks. If too many things are prohibited in this period, then unsociable behaviour is more likely to carry over into adulthood.
    Very much disagree with this.
    Evolution and maturity as a race breeds greater knowing and understanding of these issues.

    In generations to come I forsee that 'gay' will be a word rarely used.
    Race will hopefully be used in the context of 'human race' rather than to differentiate between races withing the human race.

    I have seen a MASSIVE change in my children's generation (youngest are still in high school) where special needs kids are integrated and supported by the wider community. When I was at school more often than not they were left alone and treated in a taboo way.

    As far as slurs go, it continues to be a generational (slow) change.
    It will continue to move in a more positive direction as better education is offered.
    To me, socio-economics plays a large role in impeding these positive changes, as kids from some specific families are certainly less inclined to adapt based on poor lessons and language from home.

    I think lumping slurs in with "part of a child's learning experience when growing up" is a cop out and entirely wrong.

    I'm no activist in this area.
    Just a different point of view on how society is evolving and learning.
    There re many many other areas I label 'nanny state' and 'PC gone mad' but there re also some areas which are clearly progressing and are no longer acceptable.
    The difference between insanity and genius is measured only in success.

  7. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    People on RWO know that I am a humanist and a defender of civil liberties.

    We all realise that Heath Shaw used a word that is offensive to the intellectually challenged. I have very close friends who have had careers working with people with downs syndrome and I know something about this issue. This is not the point. I am not defending Shaw. I understand that what he said was not acceptable. So, what action was taken? He was publicly criticised and he apologised. Do you think there should have been further punishment for what he said? Does the punishment fit the crime?

    I have tried to make the point that there are bigger issues at stake and we need to be careful about limiting freedom of speech, although some limits are certainly warranted. We should ask ourselves:

    • Who will decide what words are acceptable and what words are not?
    • Who will decide in what circumstances certain words can be used or not used?
    • Who will decide when parties are offended and what punishment is to be meted out?
    • Who will decide where the lines for free speech are to be drawn?


    I don't wish for any disadvantaged group to be offended. But I also don't want people to arbitrarily decide what can and cannot be said. Even if I am personally offended by what someone says, and this does happen, I would never deny others the right to say it. It is better for me to be offended than to deny someone's right to speak freely without fear of retribution.
    All reasonable points. But does your last point extend to allowing someone to openly express the right to tell others their expression is offensive & they should keep their views & comments to themselves? All very circular

  8. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Meg View Post
    I really feel for Kieran. He did the post-game interview after the GWS match and was clearly really devastated by the match and the position the Swans were in. It is now pretty obvious he was probably in pain as well. As fans we do expect a lot from our players.
    I found it curious that an ex-captain who had a dirty night fronted the media after a horrid loss. He looked very uncomfortable. I'd have preferred JPK or perhaps Lukey Parker. After how Cal Mills spoke to the players, maybe even he might have been articulate. Not that Kizza wasn't, but he seemed distracted and a little distraught, eyes darting away from the camera and interviewer. A few cliches thrown in. Uneasy to watch

  9. #285
    Veterans List Ludwig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09183305 View Post
    All reasonable points. But does your last point extend to allowing someone to openly express the right to tell others their expression is offensive & they should keep their views & comments to themselves? All very circular
    Absolutely! And I think this is what happened in the Heath Shaw case. People spoke up. Said they were offended and forced him to apologise. I think it ended in a good result. Our awareness of the offensive nature of Shaw's words was raised in the public's consciousness and hopefully we have all learned from the experience. Perhaps all the efforts in calling out Adam Goodes' racial vilification helped in getting the AFL to act so swiftly in this case. Yes, we should speak out when we think something is not right in our society, but we must also be wary of those wanting to limit free speech, even speech that we may find offensive. In a free and open society we should be able to reach fair and just social norms.

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