Changes for Round 6 - CARLTON

[bloodspirit]

Ludwig has been leading the charge for us to play no ruck or a makeshift ruck like Aliir or Towers (although not this week). Flying South and others have been receptive and taken up this suggestion too. I don't understand why.

No team voluntarily played last year without a ruck. And the role of ruck is even more important this year since the rule changes. Melbourne's current lack of a ruck is described as a crisis. Essendon resumed playing a ruck as soon as they could.

Even last year, when Campbell was injured at the Dogs and Beveridge ignored Minson, he still used Roughead and Tom Boyd both of whom are 200+ cm and both of whom have rucking experience. It wasn't that Bevo chose to play without rucks rather that he thought they were his best rucking options.

So, I'd like to hear Ludwig et al explain more properly the virtues of this "no real ruck" system and why it will work when no other coach in the league appears to agree.

[Flying South]

Ludwig has been leading the charge for us to play no ruck or a makeshift ruck like Aliir or Towers (although not this week). Flying South and others have been receptive and taken up this suggestion too. I don't understand why.

No team voluntarily played last year without a ruck. And the role of ruck is even more important this year since the rule changes. Melbourne's current lack of a ruck is described as a crisis. Essendon resumed playing a ruck as soon as they could.

Even last year, when Campbell was injured at the Dogs and Beveridge ignored Minson, he still used Roughead and Tom Boyd both of whom are 200+ cm and both of whom have rucking experience. It wasn't that Bevo chose to play without rucks rather that he thought they were his best rucking options.

So, I'd like to hear Ludwig et al explain more properly the virtues of this "no real ruck" system and why it will work when no other coach in the league appears to agree.

I certainly don't think we should play without a ruck. Ludwig put forward three suggestions play existing out of form ruckmen, play an alternative ruck or no real ruck. Based on the fact that Naismith is injured, Tippett was poor last week and was labouring at times, Sinclair offers nothing and Cameron isn't fit enough yet for senior football. I simply chose the alternative ruck solution. Apparently Aliir has rucked a lot in junior footy, has a great leap so i thought why not see what he's got against a weaker team. I also thought he would be up against Phillips not Kreuzer.

[rb4x]

Might have to take back what I said about getting away with two tall defenders against Carlton. On checking Casboult 201cm, Weitering 195cm and Charlie Curnow 194cm might have our defenders a little stretched. Did not realise that Charlie Curnow was that tall. As they are named Zak is on Weitering which would be another mismatch. Probably now a job for Laidler.

[Cosmic Wizard]

Might have to take back what I said about getting away with two tall defenders against Carlton. On checking Casboult 201cm, Weitering 195cm and Charlie Curnow 194cm might have our defenders a little stretched. Did not realise that Charlie Curnow was that tall. As they are named Zak is on Weitering which would be another mismatch. Probably now a job for Laidler.

Charlie Curnow is a star in the making; saw him against Port, lots of overhead marks and a big body making things happen.

We should recruit him or someone like him ASAP, Reid just does not compare to him.

[ScottH]

Is it too late to get Ted back in the team?

[Hotpotato]

So we won't be capable of beating Carlton ?

[Meg]

Is it too late to get Ted back in the team?

Aren't the Swans having a farewell lunch for Ted and Benny in Melbourne to coincide with this match? So Ted must be going to be in Melbourne on Saturday ............

[ugg]

Aren't the Swans having a farewell lunch for Ted and Benny in Melbourne to coincide with this match? So Ted must be going to be in Melbourne on Saturday ............

It's not this match, it's the Friday before the NM match in May.

[Ludwig]

Ludwig has been leading the charge for us to play no ruck or a makeshift ruck like Aliir or Towers (although not this week). Flying South and others have been receptive and taken up this suggestion too. I don't understand why.

No team voluntarily played last year without a ruck. And the role of ruck is even more important this year since the rule changes. Melbourne's current lack of a ruck is described as a crisis. Essendon resumed playing a ruck as soon as they could.

Even last year, when Campbell was injured at the Dogs and Beveridge ignored Minson, he still used Roughead and Tom Boyd both of whom are 200+ cm and both of whom have rucking experience. It wasn't that Bevo chose to play without rucks rather that he thought they were his best rucking options.

So, I'd like to hear Ludwig et al explain more properly the virtues of this "no real ruck" system and why it will work when no other coach in the league appears to agree.

I started thinking about how best to utilise the ruck position when Jason Blake at 189cm had to come in for STK and play in the ruck against us a few years back. I can't remember who we had as ruckmen that day, but we were soundly beaten. There are 3 ruckmen that have influenced my thinking in this area, Adam Goodes, Patrick Ryder and Stefan Martin. All 3 would be considered undersized for a ruckman, but are able to do things around the ground which make them so valuable compared to your average ruckman.

On the other hand, suppose you have a dominant ruckman, like Sandilands. You can plan on winning nearly all of the hitouts and Sandi often gets 20+ hitouts to advantage. So you would think Freo would be unbeatable under these circumstances, but it's surprising how often Freo lose the clearances even with this advantage. Obviously, opposition sides go into the game planning to lose the hitouts and have setups of counteract this. There is another disadvantage to having such a dominant ruckman: What to do when that ruckman is injured, since your whole game plan has been based on winning the hitouts. A good example of this is how bad the GWS falloff was when Mummy got injured. A dominant ruckman becomes nearly irreplaceable, since the team has to change its game plan to adjust to the loss. So there is little flexibility when having a ruckman-centric game plan.

I thought we played well last year when Naismith was a 1st ruck and our powerful contested ball winning midfielders could take advantage of his strong tap work. It sounds perfect, but your stoppage game plan becomes fixed on Naismith being fit and in form and the not having the opposition come up with good countermeasures.

Adam Goodes was the perfect ruckman. It's a shame he had that PCL injury. He wasn't the best ruckman, but once the ball was in play we had such an advantage in what we could get from our ruckman compared to the opposition.

Our problem at present is that we are playing an out of form Tippett plus Callum Sinclair who are taking up 2 of our 22 spots in our side. They are not offering much at stoppages nor around the ground, so we are effectively playing 2 men short. Longmire doesn't know what to do because he loves playing his 2 ruckmen, and that's just the way it's going to be.

My idea is to have several players in the side who play a regular (non rucking) role who take turns as the ruckman at stoppages. The team has a game plan not dependent on winning the hitouts, but rather countering the other sides' hitout dominance. Our ruckman shouldn't engage in the physical part of the ruck contest (wrestling and such), avoiding injury. It shouldn't make much difference to how we play, regardless of who is playing in the ruck.

Of our current playing list, Aliir is probably the best ruckman, because he would be a lot like a Patrick Ryder in the ruck with his athleticism, and would be extremely difficult to counter around the ground. It would be good if Toby Pink can make it, because he can play in the ruck as well as offer a mobile player around the ground. From what I've seen of Darcy Cameron so far, he could be our best choice going forward, because he could genuinely earn a spot in the side as a true forward and makes a good contest in the ruck.

The Bulldogs have a game plan which doesn't depend on winning ruck contests, but nonetheless fight for every contested ball around the ground. Tom Boyd is tall, but not a good ruckman, and was very poor when playing 1st ruck. Beveridge has already said that he might not play a ruckman at times. It turns out to be a difficult strategy to counter and is one that more easily facilitates player substitutions when injuries occur. It would have been interesting to see what Leigh Mathews would do if still coaching, as he's another one who doesn't think teams should focus on having a ruckman as a central part of the team's strategy.

In retrospect, I would have loved for the Swans to have a ruckman like Sam Jacobs. He's and excellent ruckman, a handy player around the ground and is rarely injured. I say 'in retrospect' because you really don't know this is going to be the case until you look back and review how things have transpired. It's not something easily planned for. The other side of the coin is someone like Matthew Kreuzer, a #1 draft pick who is good as both a forward and a ruckman, but has had an injury plagued career and has never reached his potential. I'm sure Carlton thought they would build a team around Kreuzer, but injury ruined their plans. There is simply too much luck involved on building a game plan around a ruckman, so why not eliminate this from consideration by having a game plan without a ruckman.

Darren Jolly was reliable ruckman who hardly missed a game, but since then, it's been like a merry-go-round. It must be hard on the midfielders working practicing stoppage work only to find the key player is out and someone with a different technique and ability has taken his place.

[Mr Magoo]

I think you need to consider that most sides dont want their more skilful players playing ruck for any length of time as it is so physically demanding on the player. The swans quite outwardly said that with Goodes.

Unless all of the teams were prepared to go this way , you may find over the longer term that you start losing the smaller guys to injury from playing in the ruck all the time and shorten their careers. While it may be okay to stick say Alliir in their temporarily , I would fear that over time he will start getting banged around and eventually succumb.

Lets face it , the problem at the moment is not the fact that we dont have a suitable ruckmen , in fact Tippett was showing until he got injured last year that this was an ideal role for him , the reality is that :
1. We have no in form ruckmen - even Naismith was not setting the world on fire prior to his injury.
2. Our gun midfielders are sadly out of form - they look slow and are either injured or not prepared to run two ways. Parker , Hannabery and Jack are all at the moment shadows of their former selves.
3. Our next gen of players have not really lifted to the elite level at this stage (albeit a lot of that due to injury).
4. Our backline is sadly missing an organiser like McVeigh or Rampe.


At the end of last season I think we would have all expected :
1. Alliir to continue on with his form from last year - he was that important that many including myself thought he could have made the difference for us in the GF. From what I have seen this year , Longmire is right on the mark with him.
2. Papley , Mills , Heeney even Rohan to go up to that next level - obviously injuries haven't helped but they have not gone to that level at this stage.
3. Further improvement from Cunningham, Marsh , Robinson - not happened (albeit again some injury)

If I look at the team at this point of time the only player I can think off that has actually gone up a level is Jones and the only other good story is that Reid is showing the type of capability we all thought he had.

The younger guys like Hayward, Florent , Newman and Fox should just be handy editions to the above and last year the new guys were just that . Thats not the case at the moment, we are hoping that they will provide the difference and thats just not going to happen.

[O'Reilly Boy]

I suppose that this has sort of been covered, but I was feeling pretty annoyed that Jack had been selected for several weeks when he was obviously not fit. I know that most players are carrying niggles, and that they may, with the best of intentions, on occasion underplay their discomfort for the (perceived) benefit of the team, but I do think that the number of crook players we took into the GF last year was a real factor in our not being able to keep up with the Dogs in the last 10 minutes. I guess there is always the calculation of the benefits of playing a hobbled experience player on one hand and an inexperienced but fit player on the other, and those at the Club know what's going on better than I do, but it still is annoying. It makes me wonder about who else is carrying something serious. Clearly Parker is underdone, but there could be more to what is going on for him.
I have also been having dark thoughts about Tippett, a player who I have very much wanted to succeed. Watching GWS players scoot out of defence around him on the weekend was horrible; he cannot offer the kind of forward defensive pressure that is needed against teams with run and carry out of defence. At the same time, he is recovering from injury and is underdone, and when he is at his best (even his better) he shreds it (cf the first half of last season). I hope that he puts it together over the next three weeks, and that we can unburden the team of Sinclair.

[bloodspirit]

I think you need to consider that most sides dont want their more skilful players playing ruck for any length of time as it is so physically demanding on the player. The swans quite outwardly said that with Goodes.

Unless all of the teams were prepared to go this way , you may find over the longer term that you start losing the smaller guys to injury from playing in the ruck all the time and shorten their careers. While it may be okay to stick say Alliir in their temporarily , I would fear that over time he will start getting banged around and eventually succumb.

Lets face it , the problem at the moment is not the fact that we dont have a suitable ruckmen , in fact Tippett was showing until he got injured last year that this was an ideal role for him , the reality is that :
1. We have no in form ruckmen - even Naismith was not setting the world on fire prior to his injury.
2. Our gun midfielders are sadly out of form - they look slow and are either injured or not prepared to run two ways. Parker , Hannabery and Jack are all at the moment shadows of their former selves.
3. Our next gen of players have not really lifted to the elite level at this stage (albeit a lot of that due to injury).
4. Our backline is sadly missing an organiser like McVeigh or Rampe.


At the end of last season I think we would have all expected :
1. Alliir to continue on with his form from last year - he was that important that many including myself thought he could have made the difference for us in the GF. From what I have seen this year , Longmire is right on the mark with him.
2. Papley , Mills , Heeney even Rohan to go up to that next level - obviously injuries haven't helped but they have not gone to that level at this stage.
3. Further improvement from Cunningham, Marsh , Robinson - not happened (albeit again some injury)

If I look at the team at this point of time the only player I can think off that has actually gone up a level is Jones and the only other good story is that Reid is showing the type of capability we all thought he had.

The younger guys like Hayward, Florent , Newman and Fox should just be handy editions to the above and last year the new guys were just that . Thats not the case at the moment, we are hoping that they will provide the difference and thats just not going to happen.

Great post, Mr Magoo.

Lloyd and Hewett are two other players that have significantly stepped it up this year.