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Thread: Changes for Rnd 19 V Hawthorn

  1. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Go Swannies View Post
    Let's cut to the crunch. Do we tag Mitchell - and if so, who?
    Shaun Burgoyne needs to be tagged more than Mitchell.

  2. #38
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royboy42 View Post
    I have often felt we really need a stronger comp for our reserves players than NEAFL standard. However, the performances of the guys moving up over the last year or so belie that.

    Maybe the Swans ressies coaching has improved dramatically; maybe the calibre and preparedness of recruits for firsts standard football is higher... I'm unsure.

    I do remain convinced that the NEAFL standards haven't improved.

    Any thoughts on this guys?

    The NEAFL standard has improved remarkably. It is just that we have a super reserves side. Not only that Rhyce Shaw has been a revelation as coach. He is always able to come up with tactics to not only match the opposition during a game but to demolish their game plan. GWS are bottom, Suns 5th and Lions are fighting tooth and nail to keep Sydney Uni out of second spot. Last week NT Thunder had 8 players missing and Uni 5. So this made their task very difficult playing the two top Reserves teams. Uni were down in numbers when we met them the last time too. We have been very good at training our Academy Top Ups with our main group so they know what is expected of them. We are also lucky the Academy year has so many talented players who have been taught the benefit of teamwork and team coordination. The non reserves sides are improving all the time as they recruit players from the other states, get Academy boys who haven't been drafted and manage to get better and bigger sponsorship.

    There is still a long way to go but the NEAFL is heading in the right direction.

  3. #39
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    I'm surprised no one has suggested that we drop Naismith instead of the conversation being limited to a choice between Reid and Sinclair. Naismith has been passable, but nothing special in the ruck. In 12 games he's only taken 23 marks and hasn't kicked a goal, so hasn't contributed much around the ground either.

    I would bring Tippett in for Naismith and leave Sinclair at FF. It would give a chance for Naismith to freshen up with a week off. We can decide which 2 should play the following week out of Tippett, Naismith, Sinclair and Reid based on their relative performances and training form. I don't think we will be going back to a 2 ruckmen system after finally making the structural change to 1 ruckman. But we can have 2 ruck/forwards divide the workload in the ruck and forward.

    Robinson hasn't been all that impressive in his 3 weeks back from injury and NEAFL. Dawson's form is just too good to overlook. I would make the swap this week. With a bye week for the reserves, there's no reason to wait. We've seen enough.

    Summary
    In: Tippett, Dawson
    Out: Naismith, Robinson
    Tippett is a forward/ruckman not a ruckman. he averages 13.5 HO this year to Naismith's 27.9. they also play very different roles. Naismith does not rest forward very often, Tippett does. Yet Tippett has kicked the same amount of goals on average this year as Naismith, 0.6. Naismith sets up as a defensive ruckman between centre and CHB when they are bringing the ball out of defence. He closes the centre square gap and makes it hard for them to move the ball through the centre. He even got hold of Joey Montagna and a couple of others trying it last weekend. Not so slow for a big man. I don't know if Tippett can play that role as he is just a bit slower than Big Sam.

    As much as I'd love to see Dawson get a run it all depends on how we are going to play the Hawks. Do we tag certain players, Hewett on Mitchell, Robbo on Smith etc? Or do we play head to head? I think that a pretty stupid thing to do. Who do we play on Gunston? He was sensational last week getting 29 disposals across HB. We need to put a defensive forward, or a forward who can more than match him and make them pay, on him. Gunston is a very good mark so the other thing we could do is bring Dawson in and make Gunston accountable. Dawson is just as good or even better in the marking contest and more than matches Gunston at ground level. In fact at ground level I'd say Dawson is far more clever.

  4. #40
    Regular in the Side Matty10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 707 View Post
    I mentioned in the Finals thread about the number of best 22 Hawthorn have missing and it's quite an impressive list

    Birchall
    Rioli
    Puopolo
    Stratton
    Frawley
    O'Meara
    Ceglar* is he first choice ruck?
    Gibson* likely retirement

    We have our best 22 playing this game so no excuses, must beat them and in my mind must beat them well given the number of young/second choice players fronting for them this week.
    Their last five weeks has been very impressive. They have beaten Adelaide, Collingwood and Fremantle. They drew with GWS (in a game they lost by one second), and would have beaten Geelong had Smith kicked truly.

    Six weeks ago I was very bullish about thumping Hawthorn at the 'G, but their recent form has made me doubt. Also, if they win their last five games they will make the finals (and I am sure they know this).

    This might be a very tough encounter.


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  5. #41
    Veterans List Ludwig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolftone57 View Post
    Tippett is a forward/ruckman not a ruckman. he averages 13.5 HO this year to Naismith's 27.9. they also play very different roles. Naismith does not rest forward very often, Tippett does. Yet Tippett has kicked the same amount of goals on average this year as Naismith, 0.6. Naismith sets up as a defensive ruckman between centre and CHB when they are bringing the ball out of defence. He closes the centre square gap and makes it hard for them to move the ball through the centre. He even got hold of Joey Montagna and a couple of others trying it last weekend. Not so slow for a big man. I don't know if Tippett can play that role as he is just a bit slower than Big Sam.
    You are simply defining what Naismith does and calling it a role. It is more a statement about his limitations. He can only play as a ruckman, otherwise he doesn't have a spot in the side. He's a good ruckman, but certainly not a dominant ruckman. He was outplayed in the ruck by Billy Longer. Neither did much around the ground. When we last played Hawthorn Tippett and Sinclair shared the ruck duties and dominated McEvoy. We clearly won the hitouts and the clearances, despite losing the game.

    Tippett has only played 5 games this year, one of which he injured his ankle in the first quarter and was clearly not fit when he next played against GWS, so the stats are not a good indication of what he is capable of. I don't know if he can get back to his best, which most would say was the first half of last year before his hamstring injury. At that time he was our number 1 ruckman and also kicked plenty of goals.

    Tippett, Sinclair and Cameron can all play as ruckmen, but can also hold down a role as a forward. I think that flexibility is a positive.

    Looking at the current situation, we have 2 spots to fill with 4 possible candidates: Naismith, Sinclair, Reid and Tippett. We are not going back to playing 2 ruckmen + another forward. If Reid is fit, he plays the forward role, so it's down to who should play in the ruck. Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his career best performance, which would mean that Naismith would go out anyway if Reid plays. I'm assuming that Reid will be given another week off, so this may be the last chance to give Tippett a go in the senior side. When Reid is back Tippett will have to get past both Sinclair and Naismith to get into the side.

    Tippett, at his best, is our fist choice ruckman. I would like to see how he goes before we put a line through him for the rest of year.

  6. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his career best performance, which would mean that Naismith would go out anyway if Reid plays.
    Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his performance as a key forward, not as a ruckman. He spent barely any (if any) time in the ruck last week. His contribution was clunking marks and kicking goals. You wouldn't elevate him into the number one ruck role based on that performance any more than you'd move Melican to full forward based on his excellent game in defence.

    If Reid comes back into the side it will be

    a) as a third tall forward (alongside Buddy and Sinclair)
    b) because either Buddy or Sinclair is injured
    c) at the expense of Sinclair.

    c) won't happen this week (unless b also applies) but it could the following week if Sinclair has little impact against the Hawks.

    It is possible, somewhere down the track, that the coaches decide that Tippett and Sinclair can share rucking and forward duties and that Naismith makes way. But I see close to zero chance of Sinclair playing as the sole ruckman while Naismith is fit and available, not even as a means to squeeze Reid into the side.

  7. #43
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graemed View Post
    Robinson is the Swans first choice lock down player and has been very effective in this role. Hayward is on a different level. In the NEAFL game last week against NT he was in class of his own. His marking, positioning and pace were elite. Clearly BOG.
    Tippett was effective but Hayward was dominant.
    I don't agree with you that Hayward was BOG. I think Dawson was and so did the coaches. Let's face it 40 disposals, 8 tackles and 3 goals is pretty good.Hayward a close second

  8. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markwebbos View Post
    In theory yes. Do we have a tagger who'd do a good job?
    Someone suggested Kizza. I wonder if Towers didn't ruck he could be a good tagger?
    Hewett will get Mitchell

  9. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    I'm surprised no one has suggested that we drop Naismith instead of the conversation being limited to a choice between Reid and Sinclair. Naismith has been passable, but nothing special in the ruck. In 12 games he's only taken 23 marks and hasn't kicked a goal, so hasn't contributed much around the ground either.

    I would bring Tippett in for Naismith and leave Sinclair at FF. It would give a chance for Naismith to freshen up with a week off. We can decide which 2 should play the following week out of Tippett, Naismith, Sinclair and Reid based on their relative performances and training form. I don't think we will be going back to a 2 ruckmen system after finally making the structural change to 1 ruckman. But we can have 2 ruck/forwards divide the workload in the ruck and forward.

    Robinson hasn't been all that impressive in his 3 weeks back from injury and NEAFL. Dawson's form is just too good to overlook. I would make the swap this week. With a bye week for the reserves, there's no reason to wait. We've seen enough.

    Summary
    In: Tippett, Dawson
    Out: Naismith, Robinson
    We live in crazy times. Ludwig hasn't called for Aliir's inclusion. :-)
    Today's a draft of your epitaph

  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    You are simply defining what Naismith does and calling it a role. It is more a statement about his limitations. He can only play as a ruckman, otherwise he doesn't have a spot in the side. He's a good ruckman, but certainly not a dominant ruckman. He was outplayed in the ruck by Billy Longer. Neither did much around the ground. When we last played Hawthorn Tippett and Sinclair shared the ruck duties and dominated McEvoy. We clearly won the hitouts and the clearances, despite losing the game.

    Tippett has only played 5 games this year, one of which he injured his ankle in the first quarter and was clearly not fit when he next played against GWS, so the stats are not a good indication of what he is capable of. I don't know if he can get back to his best, which most would say was the first half of last year before his hamstring injury. At that time he was our number 1 ruckman and also kicked plenty of goals.

    Tippett, Sinclair and Cameron can all play as ruckmen, but can also hold down a role as a forward. I think that flexibility is a positive.

    Looking at the current situation, we have 2 spots to fill with 4 possible candidates: Naismith, Sinclair, Reid and Tippett. We are not going back to playing 2 ruckmen + another forward. If Reid is fit, he plays the forward role, so it's down to who should play in the ruck. Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his career best performance, which would mean that Naismith would go out anyway if Reid plays. I'm assuming that Reid will be given another week off, so this may be the last chance to give Tippett a go in the senior side. When Reid is back Tippett will have to get past both Sinclair and Naismith to get into the side.

    Tippett, at his best, is our fist choice ruckman. I would like to see how he goes before we put a line through him for the rest of year.

    That was then. Tippett also managed to only 8 HO at his last outing before being injured. We didn't ruck Sinclair last week and that was good. That let him concentrate on being a focus up forward. Tippett absolutely dominated in the reserves before coming back to the seniors and playing like a spud. The other thing is Tippett does not HO to advantage nearly as often as Naismith. He doesn't give too many second efforts either. He is not as mobile and won't even think about chasing faster players. Naismith is and does all these. Tippett is nowhere near our first choice ruckman.

  11. #47
    Veterans List wolftone57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz View Post
    Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his performance as a key forward, not as a ruckman. He spent barely any (if any) time in the ruck last week. His contribution was clunking marks and kicking goals. You wouldn't elevate him into the number one ruck role based on that performance any more than you'd move Melican to full forward based on his excellent game in defence.

    If Reid comes back into the side it will be

    a) as a third tall forward (alongside Buddy and Sinclair)
    b) because either Buddy or Sinclair is injured
    c) at the expense of Sinclair.

    c) won't happen this week (unless b also applies) but it could the following week if Sinclair has little impact against the Hawks.

    It is possible, somewhere down the track, that the coaches decide that Tippett and Sinclair can share rucking and forward duties and that Naismith makes way. But I see close to zero chance of Sinclair playing as the sole ruckman while Naismith is fit and available, not even as a means to squeeze Reid into the side.

    Well reasoned Liz

  12. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by wolftone57 View Post
    That was then. Tippett also managed to only 8 HO at his last outing before being injured. We didn't ruck Sinclair last week and that was good. That let him concentrate on being a focus up forward. Tippett absolutely dominated in the reserves before coming back to the seniors and playing like a spud. The other thing is Tippett does not HO to advantage nearly as often as Naismith. He doesn't give too many second efforts either. He is not as mobile and won't even think about chasing faster players. Naismith is and does all these. Tippett is nowhere near our first choice ruckman.
    I agree. Naismith is our best ruckman and Reid our best tall forward, which means right now Tippett is only a depth player, for now second in line behind Clunkers. The game has moved on and he's not mobile enough. I don't know if he can change his body shape to be less of a monster.

    It also means he's the most overpaid player in the comp - worse than Prestia ($700k tagger), Vickery or Mayne. Perhaps we could bundle him up with some draft picks and get Dusty in return in a Dangerfield type deal?

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