2019 season guernsey numbers

[Bloods05]

Well, that's just one way we could look at it. I understand you are a moderator and would like to 'keep the peace' but maybe CTS could explain it himself? Except that now he has an 'out'.....

Indeed. You are quite wrong here Liz. The idea that it is "divisive" to reserve a number for indigenous players, especially one that has been made famous by one who became, and continues to be, a leader in the indigenous community, is a clear example of a rhetorical device that has been used to devastating effect by those who seek to discredit efforts to enhance the status of first peoples in this country. You are being far too generous. Stevoswan is right on the money.

[MattW]

I approve of the gesture of setting aside 37, in fact I'm proud of it. In relation to allocating the number to another player, I'd hope and would expect they'd take into account Adam's wishes.

[YvonneH]

I would be happy for #37 to be retired permanently, at the same time for it to be re-allocated at a later date is fine with me.
I guess that makes me undecided.

[chalbilto]

I hate the thought of that.
Segregating and divisive.
But then I've never been a fan of retiring jumpers regardless.

I agree with CTS, the retirement of a number is an over reaction. When it comes to Adam Goodes or any other great players, I think it's their deeds and exploits and not the number that is the reason for their greatness. In other words the number does not make them great or successful. For example Roger Dangerfield had number 32 with Adelaide but has 35 with Geelong. Does either number make him a better player, so what I am trying to say is, honour and remember the player for his deeds and exploits, for the number is a way of identification, locker room allocation, registration on rosters etc. Numbers do not have magic powers which is passed on.

[CureTheSane]

Well, that's just one way we could look at it. I understand you are a moderator and would like to 'keep the peace' but maybe CTS could explain it himself? Except that now he has an 'out'.....

Liz is absolutely right.
To get that from what I said is just putting words in my mouth that were never there.
There is no reason a young indigenous player shouldn't get the jumper, but saving it for a specific skin colour is wrong to me.
Simply, it cheapens the jumper.

It cheapens it in exactly the same way as giving Mills #14 kind of cheapened it for me.
Craig Bird was a great player to wear it, as not everyone needs to be a superstar to perpetuate the 'tradition' of the number.
What makes the numbers special is that they are given out and from time to time there will come a star and they will happen to have a jumper that has a rich tradition to add to.

Your comment to me is bordering on calling me racist, which I don't appreciate at all.
I don't need an 'out' from anyone, but I appreciate the understanding and explanation provided by Liz.

For what it's worth, there are times I would support retirement of a jumper, probably not permanently though.
Darren Millane would be a good example.

[CureTheSane]

Indeed. You are quite wrong here Liz. The idea that it is "divisive" to reserve a number for indigenous players, especially one that has been made famous by one who became, and continues to be, a leader in the indigenous community, is a clear example of a rhetorical device that has been used to devastating effect by those who seek to discredit efforts to enhance the status of first peoples in this country. You are being far too generous. Stevoswan is right on the money.

Pfft.

17 should be reserved for the irish
27 for Americans

Reserving 37 for indigenous Australians would definitely be seen as divisive by many football fans, particularly the ones who booed Goodes.
Add to that, I'd suggest that throwing a young player into the position would be setting him up to deal with a whole bunch of problems to add to him developing as a footballer.
The Goodes issue brought racism issues into football.
The sport acted as a hotspot to debate racism, bullying and 'the spotlight'

The issue has not disappeared, and will raise its ugly head again at some time.
I would be wanting to protect any new indigenous player from the ugliness rather than throwing them into the fire.

[stevoswan]

Pfft.

17 should be reserved for the irish
27 for Americans

Reserving 37 for indigenous Australians would definitely be seen as divisive by many football fans, particularly the ones who booed Goodes.
Add to that, I'd suggest that throwing a young player into the position would be setting him up to deal with a whole bunch of problems to add to him developing as a footballer.
The Goodes issue brought racism issues into football.
The sport acted as a hotspot to debate racism, bullying and 'the spotlight'

The issue has not disappeared, and will raise its ugly head again at some time.
I would be wanting to protect any new indigenous player from the ugliness rather than throwing them into the fire.

Thanks for explaining CTS.....but you're almost saying "we must respect the opinion of the people who booed Goodes". I don't get that or agree with it. You may be right with your assertion that it may put some undeserved pressure on a young indigenous player......but only if the Goodes booers rear their ugly heads again. While I have little confidence our society has improved at all in this area, I don't think that section of society is even bright enough to 'join the dots'.....and while the media may well do that for them, it doesn't automatically mean they will treat the kid the way they treated Goodes. To say that something like this is 'divisive' actually gives respect to the opinions of a section of society that deserves no respect....racists and bigots. I'll take your word that you are not in this group.....which makes your opinion on this whole matter all the more confusing.

PS: Just an aside, how does Mills getting 14 cheapen THAT number after Craig Bird had it? Barring that both 14 and 37 were retired, I feel that that has no relevance at all to the No. 37 issue being discussed here.....

[stevoswan]

For what it's worth, there are times I would support retirement of a jumper, probably not permanently though.
Darren Millane would be a good example.

So you would retire the jumper number of, ie: show respect to, a drunk driver who was responsible for his own death and threatened other drivers lives on the same night (and probably on many other nights) over a genuine AFL and indigenous two time Brownlow Medal winning champion who was 'Australian of the Year'......very strange.

[CureTheSane]

Aside from forming an opinion on racism based on one comment, I would assume that all Swans fans here are 'not in that camp'
I have less confidence that society has improved in this area. People like Pauline Hanson still have a backbone of support.
Of course this section of society deserves no respect, but we need to be careful not to add fuel to their fires.
Unfortunately, as I've said before, change in this area, as well as homophobia, caring for the environment, and other areas, will only happen generationally.

Personally I feel that in 20 years, any hint of racism in conversations will be rare.
Whilst not disagreeing with the stance Goodes made, the crap he copped, and the way the club supported him, in the end we are a footy club.
I believe that we need to be careful not to become the moral crusaders of equality and fairness.
One could argue that we should do this, and some of these issues are 'bigger than footy' but I think most people see football as a light distraction from all the other crap in their lives and in society.

The #14 will be cheapened if it is saved ofr 'the next star' which Mills was certainly pegged as when drafted.
Maybe he was desperate for it, and begged.
Or maybe the club saw it as a way of perpetuating and growing the mystique and regard for the jumper.
I'd be happier if it was raffled off to new players and if one gets it and becomes a star then that would genuinely add to the esteem of the number.

[stevoswan]

All good CTS, I feel that we're pretty much on the same page here.....except maybe on the 'mystique' of Millane's number. To me, it's tainted because of the 'irresponsible' nature of his death, sad as that was. Maybe Collingwood could give that one to a young recruit with a drinking problem who drives when they're drunk.

[liz]

The #14 will be cheapened if it is saved ofr 'the next star' which Mills was certainly pegged as when drafted.
Maybe he was desperate for it, and begged.
Or maybe the club saw it as a way of perpetuating and growing the mystique and regard for the jumper.
I'd be happier if it was raffled off to new players and if one gets it and becomes a star then that would genuinely add to the esteem of the number.

I didn't read giving Mills number 14 as a signal it is to be reserved for "the next star". I saw it more as a celebration of the fact he was a NSW product (as Bird was before him).

As you mentioned in an earlier post, retiring numbers becomes problematic because it increases the pressure on the club to find the "right recipient" when the number is taken out of retirement. I think Bird was the first NSW player to join the club via the National Draft (ie not the rookie draft) since McVeigh. McVeigh was drafted at the end of 2002, the same year that Kelly retired, so presumably they didn't consider giving it to him once deciding to retire the number for a period. Thus Bird provided an excuse to reinstate the number because he was a NSW product. It was Kelly's status as the best NSW player (in recent memory) to play for the club that was being remembered, I suspect, rather than his absolute champion status within the game.

Mills then joined the club the year Bird left. The number wasn't put out to pasture again once Bird vacated it. It was convenient that he was a highly touted youngster, and even more convenient that he was another NSW product. If we hadn't had a NSW player drafted to the club for the start of 2016, would the number have been retired again? We can't know but I suspect not. I don't therefore don't read quite as much into the handing on of number 14 as you do. Indeed, I think the fact that Bird was a good honest player, and not a star, somewhat relieved the need, or desire, to keep the number for someone with expectations of being a stand-out player.

[bloodspirit]

My thoughts:

* jumper numbers have a special place in Aussie Rules that they don't in many other sports and it is good to try to continue and enhance this part of footy's cultural heritage

* it makes sense to let added meaning to particular jumper numbers develop. This can be done by thoughtful allocation of jumper numbers e.g. by letting a connection with NSW to #14 grow through successive allocations of that number to NSW players (Kelly, Bird, Mills) or international recruits with #38 maybe. I also liked how Jude Bolton tried to pass his number to Dane Rampe or Rhyce Shaw to AJ. Was funny to see Teddy Richards congratulating Benny Ronke for maintaining the proud goal scoring traditions of #25 after his performance against the Hawks at the G last year.

* this should not be overly strict or restrictive and if it pans out differently to a trend/patter, so be it, that's fine too.

* jumper numbers should not be permanently retired . History should turn a new page and the tradition evolve. I don't have the impression that #37 has been permanently retired at all. Certainly the club has not made any announcement to that effect which you would think they would if that had happened. Rather they are allowing the number to lie fallow a few seasons after the retirement of a club legend in quite particular circumstances. To me it comes across as a mark of respect to the Club Games Record Holder, 2x Brownlow Medallist (etc. etc.), just pausing to acknowledge his passing. When it is once again reallocated, great.

* if they chose to keep #37 for Indigenous players and build up a bit of a tradition in that regard, I wouldn't have a problem with it but nor am I advocating for that.