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Thread: Horse

  1. #25
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    Any chance we can change the title of this thread?

  2. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanny40519 View Post
    Watched his interview after the game - he appeared to be very nervous and for the length of the interview really did not say much at all.
    I thought not nervous, rather subdued. And of course he has the job in front of him now.
    He reminds him of the guys, close-set, slow, and never rattled, who were play-makers on the team. (John Updike, seeing Josh Kennedy in a crystal ball)

  3. #27
    It seems ironic to me that what (relatively little) criticism of Horse has emerged in this thread has been measured and sensible. And this despite us being unexpectedly right at the bottom of the AFL ladder! RWO is perverse.

    Re your comment's about the club U.S. Swan, I think the club does make a strong stand on these issues but they mostly don't do it publicly, and they don't do it publicly because they believe that is more effective that way. There were some muted public comments about the umpiring of the 2016 Grand Final I think. We did advocate fairly strongly for the COLA retention and not to get a trade ban (and we succeeded in having the trade ban diluted). I certainly don't agree that the club is more focused on marketing than football, especially not the football department.

    Also I think the club has had quite a lot of stability in key management posts with smooth transitions of power from long time office bearers i.e. Colless to Pridham and Ireland to Harley. I think the Swans are regarded around the AFL as a particularly well run club. I am glad we don't have a Chairman/President like Eddie or Kochie who is constantly making headlines and (in my view) embarrassing the club. We once had Edelsten and pink helicopters and sports cars. While I am grateful to him for his substantial support of the club, I'm glad we don't have that any more.

  4. #28
    I'm taking it this is the appropriate thread to question what has gone wrong this year?

    Looking from the outside in at decisions taken by the club, it's a bit like mind reading, or even a seance, trying to understand what's happened and why? We know that it's not working on field at the moment. People are blaming Longmire, "gameplan", players, coaches etc for that.

    What I do know is:

    Age profile
    * We now have a very young list, on the basis of age alone, we should expect to be a bottom 4 club (I think our list is the 4th youngest and our side was the youngest in the game v GWS).
    * Whether we are under-performing with the talent on our list, which is a current complaint, is hard to tell, but we are being out-performed by Brisbane who have a younger list than we do. The other 2 younger sides are Gold Coast and Carlton [source is AFL Club Lists for 2019 - Draftguru ] I would say we are performing on a par with those 2 sides.

    List management
    * Our list is not in good shape age-wise with a load of under 24s and a significant number of over 28s (including many over 30 who won't be around in 1-2 years).
    * We've made a conscious decision to offload several players in the desired age bracket (Hanners, Rohan etc) which has exacerbated the problem.
    * Over the last 4 years or so a number of players have left the Swans and performed better at their destination clubs (Rohan, Mitchell, Nankervis etc).
    * Most of those departures were voluntary (as in the player left the Swans, we wanted to retain them). Rohan is a further step in the wrong direction as we pushed him out of the door (for a very low draft pick) and he's potentially the "recruit of the year"

    Match Committee
    This one is much harder to interpret as we never know what's going on behind the scenes, but I think we can at least say.

    * Players are being selected whose on-field performance does not appear to merit selection (Jack in particular, Clarke to a lesser extent)
    * Players are not being selected whose NEAFL performance would suggest they deserve a run in the AFL (Rose, COR, Cameron etc)
    * Players are being played out of position (Mills in particular, who trained with the mids and is now still playing defence)
    * Selection does not appear to reflect any change in strategy now that Horse has admitted we are rebuilding

    Game Plan
    As Liz points out, its really hard to judge when we are playing so badly.

    * We have played well in patches in both of our last 2 games.
    * As noted above, players that were barely getting a game at the Swans are flourishing in other systems, and gameplan is part of that.

    CONCLUSION
    My conclusion from all this is the club undeniably has problems with list management, player development and making the most of the talent of its players (of which our game plan is a part). And that all these aspects of the clubs operations need to be reviewed.

    There was a huge turnover of coaches the year Dew left. Most of the replacements were inexperienced coaches and/or were ex-Swans. There's not one experienced coach on the panel that is an "outsider" to the club. And I think that's part of the problem too.

    If we are going to finish in the bottom 3 (and I see no reason to think otherwise right now), then as well as a high draft pick I think the club's members are entitled to a full independent review.

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markwebbos View Post
    I'm taking it this is the appropriate thread to question what has gone wrong this year?

    Looking from the outside in at decisions taken by the club, it's a bit like mind reading, or even a seance, trying to understand what's happened and why? We know that it's not working on field at the moment. People are blaming Longmire, "gameplan", players, coaches etc for that.

    What I do know is:

    Age profile
    * We now have a very young list, on the basis of age alone, we should expect to be a bottom 4 club (I think our list is the 4th youngest and our side was the youngest in the game v GWS).
    * Whether we are under-performing with the talent on our list, which is a current complaint, is hard to tell, but we are being out-performed by Brisbane who have a younger list than we do. The other 2 younger sides are Gold Coast and Carlton [source is AFL Club Lists for 2019 - Draftguru ] I would say we are performing on a par with those 2 sides.

    List management
    * Our list is not in good shape age-wise with a load of under 24s and a significant number of over 28s (including many over 30 who won't be around in 1-2 years).
    * We've made a conscious decision to offload several players in the desired age bracket (Hanners, Rohan etc) which has exacerbated the problem.
    * Over the last 4 years or so a number of players have left the Swans and performed better at their destination clubs (Rohan, Mitchell, Nankervis etc).
    * Most of those departures were voluntary (as in the player left the Swans, we wanted to retain them). Rohan is a further step in the wrong direction as we pushed him out of the door (for a very low draft pick) and he's potentially the "recruit of the year"

    Match Committee
    This one is much harder to interpret as we never know what's going on behind the scenes, but I think we can at least say.

    * Players are being selected whose on-field performance does not appear to merit selection (Jack in particular, Clarke to a lesser extent)
    * Players are not being selected whose NEAFL performance would suggest they deserve a run in the AFL (Rose, COR, Cameron etc)
    * Players are being played out of position (Mills in particular, who trained with the mids and is now still playing defence)
    * Selection does not appear to reflect any change in strategy now that Horse has admitted we are rebuilding

    Game Plan
    As Liz points out, its really hard to judge when we are playing so badly.

    * We have played well in patches in both of our last 2 games.
    * As noted above, players that were barely getting a game at the Swans are flourishing in other systems, and gameplan is part of that.

    CONCLUSION
    My conclusion from all this is the club undeniably has problems with list management, player development and making the most of the talent of its players (of which our game plan is a part). And that all these aspects of the clubs operations need to be reviewed.

    There was a huge turnover of coaches the year Dew left. Most of the replacements were inexperienced coaches and/or were ex-Swans. There's not one experienced coach on the panel that is an "outsider" to the club. And I think that's part of the problem too.

    If we are going to finish in the bottom 3 (and I see no reason to think otherwise right now), then as well as a high draft pick I think the club's members are entitled to a full independent review.
    Agree with some of what you say, but most is from the 20/20 position of hindsight.

    *Narkervis wanted to go because he was way down the pecking order. Who was to know Tippett was finished, Naismith would do a knee etc. If he had gone to any other club other than Richmond he wouldn't be in the side. They had zero ruckmen. He's there to make a contest for their swarming attack on the ball and he fulfilled that role.
    *Newman is getting a game for Carlton, the worst performing team over the last decade, don't overrate it.
    *Mitchell was always going to go. We paid him heaps when he was perpetually injured, we paid him heaps when he was in the reserves, then when we can't match Hawthorn without jeopardising other contracts he just chases the money. Hardly a coincidence that his mentor is Greg Williams and his father did the same and left us in the lurch.
    *Let's wait for the season to unfold before we start crowning Rohan recruit of the year. Things are flowing so well for the Cats at the moment I reckon I could kick a goal or two. 8 or 9 possessions a game won't cut it if the Cats start getting more heat on their ball movement and the delivery is not lace-out.
    *Trading Hannebery can hardly be blamed for the present situation. People on RWO were saying he was finished and he's nowhere near ready to play for the Saints and we're a third of the way into the season.
    *Just because Brisbane's list is younger than ours doesn't mean the Swans have buggered up. The Lions have got a suite of top 10 picks you'd expect them to be playing better.
    *We can't assume that players in the twos are not being rewarded for their performances when we don't know what is being asked of them. Obviously Rose knows where the goals are, but what else is he being asked to do? We don't know. Same with COR, possessions don't necessarily mean you're playing your role. Last year Little Gary had a million possessions for the Cats but the consensus was they were not hurtful to the opposition.
    *People have wanted a change in gameplan. It's happening, but then the same people are complaining that we're turning the ball over! Turning it over is a product of trying to move it quickly.

    As far a review goes! I have never read anything so absolutely ridiculous. Honestly, sometimes I read this forum and think I have somehow clicked a link to the Carlton site in the 1990's. The swans have had a great run over two decades and my greatest wish is that this run continues for ever. But it is not our God-given right to play finals every year. We don't need a review to destabilise the most admired club in the competition just because we couldn't sustain our run, which most critics believe should have finished years ago.
    Those who have the greatest power to hurt us are those we love.

  6. #30
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    I thought all clubs review everything at season's end whether they are successful or not. It's called Quality Assurance.

    If they're don't do a review, how about a player survey to find out if all the players are on board with the direction the administration is taking the club and if they are fully invested in Horse's gameplan?

    If there is player unrest, as some have suggested and that I suspect could be an issue, the club need to be aware and act accordingly or we are going to have a walkout.....and undo all the great work of the last 20 years.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevoswan View Post
    I thought all clubs review everything at season's end whether they are successful or not. It's called Quality Assurance.

    If they're don't do a review, how about a player survey to find out if all the players are on board with the direction the administration is taking the club and if they are fully invested in Horse's gameplan?

    If there is player unrest, as some have suggested and that I suspect could be an issue, the club need to be aware and act accordingly or we are going to have a walkout.....and undo all the great work of the last 20 years.
    Where, besides on this board has there ever been even the suggestion of player discontent. This is the Andrew Bolt method. Make up a problem and then debate it.
    Those who have the greatest power to hurt us are those we love.

  8. #32
    I have been a member most years since 1976. I never missed a game be it in person or on the TV. We have been very lucky over the past 20 years and cannot cry too much over a bad year if that is where we are at at the moment.
    What i cant cop is that since 2016 the games have been totally unwatchable to the point where i have watched almost zero this year. The team selection is random and the game plan is dated. Why was Blakey left out for just 1 week - what was the point of that? Why keep Rose on the list? Surely he should have got 1 go instead of Ronke being up and down from the seconds every week? Which player that wasn't at the club in 2011 has developed into a top end player? Is the current coach able to develop players?
    If we are rebuilding how about playing players like Mills in the midfield and letting them play instead of this constant negative football. The coach got away with this style in 2012 because Jetta had pace and had an exceptional year. That style doesn't work now and nobody wants to watch us play for a nil nil draw every week. Losing is fine but lets have a crack at trying to score just occasionally!

  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Cat View Post
    Where, besides on this board has there ever been even the suggestion of player discontent. This is the Andrew Bolt method. Make up a problem and then debate it.
    As outsiders witnessing un-Swans like standards, we are destined to speculate.

    Your analogy fails because Bolt has an evil agenda.....and I certainly don't.

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    I have been a member most years since 1976. I never missed a game be it in person or on the TV. We have been very lucky over the past 20 years and cannot cry too much over a bad year if that is where we are at at the moment.
    What i cant cop is that since 2016 the games have been totally unwatchable to the point where i have watched almost zero this year. The team selection is random and the game plan is dated. Why was Blakey left out for just 1 week - what was the point of that? Why keep Rose on the list? Surely he should have got 1 go instead of Ronke being up and down from the seconds every week? Which player that wasn't at the club in 2011 has developed into a top end player? Is the current coach able to develop players?
    If we are rebuilding how about playing players like Mills in the midfield and letting them play instead of this constant negative football. The coach got away with this style in 2012 because Jetta had pace and had an exceptional year. That style doesn't work now and nobody wants to watch us play for a nil nil draw every week. Losing is fine but lets have a crack at trying to score just occasionally!
    Spot on 007.

    I have been watching the Swans play since the early 80's as well, and hardly missed any local games or TV away games too. I will always support the Swans but the last couple of years have been very hard to remain positive about - even when we were winning ugly. Now we are losing ugly nothing seems to have changed in game style, skills, player selection or coaching. I am sick of watching us move the ball slowly, backwards, sideways and then kick it forward to no Swan forward players except the opposition defence team. I don't now what game the coaching staff are watching but they must be doing it with their eyes closed.

    I am now questioning is it worth the struggle to get to the SGC on Friday night to see us thrashed by the Bombers.

  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swanny40519 View Post
    I am now questioning is it worth the struggle to get to the SGC on Friday night to see us thrashed by the Bombers.
    In The Guardian article that was quoted in another thread, the author threw up the idea that our slip down the ladder would determine whether large numbers of Swans supporters could be termed "fair weather supporters". Unfortunately, I'm starting to see the answer materialise before my eyes.

    The players need support when they are struggling, not when they're smashing everyone. If you're willing to high-five and feel part of the club when it's winning, you're MORALLY bound to be part of the club when they're are losing.
    Those who have the greatest power to hurt us are those we love.

  12. #36
    I supported the club back in the 80's and 90's when winning was not even a dream, and I attended all those games along with a couple of thousand people.

    But I am now in my late 70's and getting to the SGC on a colder Friday night watching 22 players running around with little idea of what they are supposed to be doing, playing very un-attractive football is not a great incentive.

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