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Thread: 2020 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

  1. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Magoo View Post
    I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

    You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

    Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view
    As a regular NEAFL viewer, I feel Stoddart is more effective than Bell. His distribution and run off half back / wing is excellent at the lower level and he can also bob up in the forward line to kick the odd goal.

    Bell gives it his all and as a NSW and proud indigenous boy, he is a great role model but I just feel his skill level and overall polish is still behind comparable team mates.

  2. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Magoo View Post
    I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

    You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

    Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view
    Bell is under pressure because he reminds me of Foote's few senior games. Just did not look up to it. It took Bell over a season and a half to produce the kind of form that would warrant a senior appearance. Stoddart produced it within two months of his first year, and then again last year, meaning the coaches must see something in him.

  3. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Magoo View Post
    I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

    You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

    Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view
    I tend to think that both have the potential to make it, but I wouldn't be be shocked if one or both didn't.

    With Stoddart, he was constantly among our best in the NEAFL: to the extent that I was quite surprised that he didn't transfer that form to the AFL, in his couple of opportunities. He is an excellent rebounder; with aggressive, elusive running and a long, accurate kick. He will also throw his slim body into contests. It would be handy if he added a bit more bulk, but not entirely necessary, if he plays as an outside running back. His downfall might be if he only gets limited game time, behind all our other rebounders: Cunningham, Dawson, Ling, Lloyd, O'Riordan, etc.

    With Bell, his effort was impressive last year, when he was playing as an inside mid. Plenty of putting his body on the line and hard tackling. However, his body may be more suited to an outside role and was probably only playing inside, because of a lack of other options. Outside, he has pace and elusiveness, but his kick accuracy and decision making can let him down. However, I think he's a late convert to the game, so there should be a realistic chance of improving his skills. Of course, his downfall could be if he can't make the necessary improvements and he ends up in the no mans land, of not quite bulky enough for the inside, but not quite skilful enough for the outside.

  4. #88
    I think it would take a few games for Stoddart to get used to playing as a half back flanker at AFL level. NEAFL seems more unstructured, you don't get punished for your disposal mistakes as much and there would be more of an encouragement to take attacking risks. But it might be hard to get an opportunity if he has Cunningham, CoR and Gould ahead of him for backline position. And a few players ahead of him for wing positions.

    One of Bell strengths is being able to make a late run into space in the attacking 50. So I can see him as a winger/half forward who plays his role and can scrap for contested ball but is able to get free in open space. Then try to play a few AFL games a seasons and gradually improve his ball winning ability and disposal.

    Generally with our players we have had a lot of late draft picks. So I think sometimes we pick raw players with higher potential upside and are patient with their development. From the 2018 draft I recall Mcinerney and Reynolds being seen as quite raw and mainly playing school football. From last years draft probably only Rowles was seen as raw, having a great leap and running ability but needing to work on his endurance and other aspects of his game.
    Last edited by SeanM; 29th February 2020 at 11:41 AM.

  5. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    Only ourselves to blame for midfield blues.
    Traded away Mitchel, and failure to negotiate with GWS for a extra draft pick a few months ago. Plenty of others, but these are symptomatic of ideology driven trading and retention over practical realities.

    Considering the academy picks we've had, we would be on par with other clubs.
    I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

    I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.

    Looking forward, we are going to get a couple of players who can play through the midfield in Gulden and Campbell, and possibly this has been a factor in our choosing not to prioritise bolstering our midfield more in the short term. In fairness, we have done ok at looking after our midfield at the draft (Rowbottom and McInerney in 2018 and then Stephens and Warner last year).

    It's at the trade table where it feels like we maybe could have done more. I think we could have looked at a player like Hugh Greenwood as an interim measure (I think he might be 27 or 28 already). I agree with those suggesting we target some of the surplus mid-stock that GWS have, especially since they are already located in Sydney. Hately was born in Canberra and played for Central Districts in South Australia before he was drafted and so hopefully would come with a limited go-home factor. Caldwell is regarded as the more talented of the two. Encouragingly Caldwell is from Vic Country and played for Bendigo Pioneers, so maybe less go-home factor than a Vic Metro boy. I wonder if he's mates with either Dyl Stephens or Brady Rowles? Caldwell got 2 games last year whereas Hately got 7 and is considerably bigger than Caldwell (190 cm v 183 cm). Hately played together with Gould at National Champs in 2018 and so they might be mates. The other inside mid GWS drafted also in 2018, Xavier O'Halloran was from Vic Metro and so perhaps is more likely to accept an approach from a Melbourne club.

    I think GWS will be keen to hang on to Hately given his Canberra connection but surely there is no way they can hang on to everyone given the list they have and the lengths they will have to go to to re-sign Cameron and Williams after already signing up Coniglio, Whitfield and Kelly. Also you'd think we'd have to give up a pretty decent pick to get Hately. They paid pick 14 for him in 2018. Depending on where we finish on the ladder this season, we may have the currency.

  6. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodspirit View Post
    I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

    I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.
    You may be right that GWS werent interesting in trading picks with us, but to be honest I think pick 5 would have been enough to deliver them Green and the other first round pick.
    Why GWS didnt sound us out (if they didnt) could be a culmination of some historical animosity between the two clubs. But again, you reap what you sow.
    Was the ideological animosity costly in the end?
    Why cant we prise away any of these young midfield guns from GWS? They dont even have to move house to join us.

  7. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    Why cant we prise away any of these young midfield guns from GWS? They dont even have to move house to join us.
    It's a good question. Pretty much everyone that has left GWS has returned to their home state - rafts of them to Victoria, Lobb and McCarthy to WA. There might be some exceptions but I think that may be the major explanation. Nevertheless I hope we are trying to recruit from their juicy talent pool. Caldwell and Hately look particularly attractive options for us. How can GWS possibly hope to hold on to everyone. Realistically they probably can't, so we've got a hope. But then the question arises how much are we prepared to pay? What would you give for Caldwell or Hately? Pick 5? Pick 10? Pick 15? Pick 20? Then what will GWS release them for?

    If we finish down the ladder again, our draft and trade position will be strengthened. Not that I am for one second suggesting tanking - I think we need to try our best to win every match, although not necessarily at the expense of getting games into our young talent.

  8. #92
    Good players generally want to play at strong clubs or clubs on the up.

    If 2020 is a poor year, we need to make a daring trade or two. A bit like the Lions snaring Neale to signal that there is upside in joining us. As it stands at the present, I think most would be happy to take less and join a stronger club.

  9. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Dawg View Post
    Good players generally want to play at strong clubs or clubs on the up.

    If 2020 is a poor year, we need to make a daring trade or two. A bit like the Lions snaring Neale to signal that there is upside in joining us. As it stands at the present, I think most would be happy to take less and join a stronger club.
    True, but, like the Lions when they recruited Nealse, we can sell ourselves as a club on the up. I.e. we may be down now but we are certainly going to be rising in the coming seasons if we don't this one. I think we can make a persuasive argument to that effect. Of course, if you have the option of going to the Giants or Tigers you might pick them first. But I think we are still more attractive than a lot of the other clubs even if we're not currently in the top handful.

  10. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodspirit View Post
    I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

    I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.

    Looking forward, we are going to get a couple of players who can play through the midfield in Gulden and Campbell, and possibly this has been a factor in our choosing not to prioritise bolstering our midfield more in the short term. In fairness, we have done ok at looking after our midfield at the draft (Rowbottom and McInerney in 2018 and then Stephens and Warner last year).

    It's at the trade table where it feels like we maybe could have done more. I think we could have looked at a player like Hugh Greenwood as an interim measure (I think he might be 27 or 28 already). I agree with those suggesting we target some of the surplus mid-stock that GWS have, especially since they are already located in Sydney. Hately was born in Canberra and played for Central Districts in South Australia before he was drafted and so hopefully would come with a limited go-home factor. Caldwell is regarded as the more talented of the two. Encouragingly Caldwell is from Vic Country and played for Bendigo Pioneers, so maybe less go-home factor than a Vic Metro boy. I wonder if he's mates with either Dyl Stephens or Brady Rowles? Caldwell got 2 games last year whereas Hately got 7 and is considerably bigger than Caldwell (190 cm v 183 cm). Hately played together with Gould at National Champs in 2018 and so they might be mates. The other inside mid GWS drafted also in 2018, Xavier O'Halloran was from Vic Metro and so perhaps is more likely to accept an approach from a Melbourne club.

    I think GWS will be keen to hang on to Hately given his Canberra connection but surely there is no way they can hang on to everyone given the list they have and the lengths they will have to go to to re-sign Cameron and Williams after already signing up Coniglio, Whitfield and Kelly. Also you'd think we'd have to give up a pretty decent pick to get Hately. They paid pick 14 for him in 2018. Depending on where we finish on the ladder this season, we may have the currency.
    Based on the compensation we get for high draft picks that end up leaving us ( with more runs on the board too) a pick 30 should do it for Hately!


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  11. #95
    From what I have seen of Hately and Caldwell, both would be in our best 22. In terms of midfield development, they are ahead of Rowbottom, McInerney and Florent. Both would be worth at least a late first rounder / early second, if not more, depending on what they do this year.

  12. #96
    Rowbottom was quiet last week. But I thought he was really good in the second half of last season. Really nice hands on the inside and a surprising amount of vision with his kicking to set up a few goals. I would still prefer him to Caldwell and Hately. Last year I remember Caldwell having a really good preseason game against us. But did not achieve much in the actual season.

    I think Florent has been more inconsistent but offers something different to our other midfielders. I feel Mcinerney is still quite raw and more of a long term prospect/.
    Last edited by SeanM; 3rd March 2020 at 06:52 PM.

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