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Thread: Horse was on Footy Classified

  1. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck'n'Roll View Post
    I fear you are correct.

    From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

    I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

    The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

    We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

    Sometime I must compile a list of AFL mis-steps in NSW:

    #1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
    #2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
    #3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
    #4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
    #5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
    #6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

    Have I missed anything?
    A conga line of AFL industry insider/careerists to cut ribbons, turn a sod at facility developments and drink wine with pollies to head up NSW/ACT - small wins and improvements aplenty that with the $ my dog could have overseen, but no real leadership and strategic understanding of the market to bed down the wins of the golden years as you say - built a training centre for GWS they never use at Blacktown (useful and good facility for local footy although no real clubs nearby) but only recently developments in the pipeline for Swans training facilities which is a joke, still no decent 2nd tier grounds and playing second fiddle to league and others all over town - no clue on what do with 2nd tier footy and locally sabotage their own NEAFL pathway and I hear on another forum they look like they are going to let it go due to $ - BIG mistake and step backwards. I could go on..

  2. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck'n'Roll View Post
    I fear you are correct.

    From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

    I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

    The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

    We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

    Speaking of AFL mis-steps in NSW, here's my list

    #1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
    #2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
    #3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
    #4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
    #5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
    #6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

    Have I missed anything?
    The biggest problem is that the AFL management is pretty much totally sourced out of Melbourne and it seems out of the old boy private school network where people live and breathe AFL.

    They have little to no understanding of how people in NSW feel about AFL and for the most part probably really dont care. What they seem to want is a competition that lets the other states in so that they get the necessary money coming into the game from tv rights etc while still maintaining that slight and ever present bias towards Victorian teams and the traditional talent systems.

    They still have little to no idea of how precarious the game is in NSW. While there has been a significant increase in interest over the past thirty years or so , there still isnt an overwhelming take up of the game. High School programmes are almost non existent and many schools actively prevent aussie rules teams from even forming in them for either lack of interest or fear of damaging their other sports programme participation (ie in Rugby Union or League). The sydney club competition at older age junior level still struggles (past under 14s) to maintain a high level and its still not uncommon in the Div 1 comps in those ages (15s and 17s) to only have 6 or 8 teams with pretty much only half of them of competing seriously for the premiership.

    If they want to build the game here in Sydney and other non traditional AFL areas , I dont think the academies on their own are necessarily the answer.

    You only have to look at the GWS and Swans Academy programmes. While it is an excellent programme it has positives and negatives to it. While being in the academy sounds a great thing and they are very well run, they will be seen as somewhat limiting by top age sportsman if it continues that only 1 or 2 players (at best) are recruited from them each year. If Rugby League and Union start to get their houses in order and better develop their junior programmes, they will attract kids away from the academy if the kids see that more kids are getting a chance to make a high level in those sports than to go through six years of being in the academy only to be still overlooked for kids from the riverina, canberra or traditional states.

    The academies for all their perceived success are yet to yield that many more AFL recruits to the game - you can almost count on one hand how many non traditional area recruits (ie outside of Riverina and Canberra) have been taken by Giants and Swans over the past five or so years and almost on one finger how many have been taken by other clubs.

    It seems that if the swans or giants dont take them up the other clubs subsequently take the view that "they couldnt be good enough for them so they arent good enough for us".

    I may be over estimating the strength of the Swans academy but the results each year continue to show how strong they are becoming, yet the final results in terms of ultimate recognition do not . While the current draft crop of Campbell and Gulden are obviously grabbing some attention, the draft age from last year had no draftees and you then look at the 16s from last year (which follow campbell and guldens year) .

    At that age , the swans won the 16 series against the giants academy 3-0, they then made up about half of the RAMs squad which then went undefeated against QLD , Tassy and the NT. Yet , the only NSW player picked in the all australian team was from the riverina and only one other from Canberra was picked in the NAB Academy programme. The results just dont match up for me and it would seem a perverse conclusion to come to, that from a swans squad that whitewashed the giants , that then had its stronger players form half of a NSW squad that was undefeated in Div 2, that not one player was good enough for further accolades yet their giants, tassy and qld academy counterparts were.

    Either way - if the plan is just to continue the academies and nothing else , growth of the game in NSW will continue but will plateau in my view if the continued result is that a couple of kids might be given an opportunity at the highest level and beyond that it falls of a cliff as to possible pathways.

  3. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Magoo View Post
    The biggest problem is that the AFL management is pretty much totally sourced out of Melbourne and it seems out of the old boy private school network where people live and breathe AFL.

    They have little to no understanding of how people in NSW feel about AFL and for the most part probably really dont care. What they seem to want is a competition that lets the other states in so that they get the necessary money coming into the game from tv rights etc while still maintaining that slight and ever present bias towards Victorian teams and the traditional talent systems.

    They still have little to no idea of how precarious the game is in NSW. While there has been a significant increase in interest over the past thirty years or so , there still isnt an overwhelming take up of the game. High School programmes are almost non existent and many schools actively prevent aussie rules teams from even forming in them for either lack of interest or fear of damaging their other sports programme participation (ie in Rugby Union or League). The sydney club competition at older age junior level still struggles (past under 14s) to maintain a high level and its still not uncommon in the Div 1 comps in those ages (15s and 17s) to only have 6 or 8 teams with pretty much only half of them of competing seriously for the premiership.

    If they want to build the game here in Sydney and other non traditional AFL areas , I dont think the academies on their own are necessarily the answer.

    You only have to look at the GWS and Swans Academy programmes. While it is an excellent programme it has positives and negatives to it. While being in the academy sounds a great thing and they are very well run, they will be seen as somewhat limiting by top age sportsman if it continues that only 1 or 2 players (at best) are recruited from them each year. If Rugby League and Union start to get their houses in order and better develop their junior programmes, they will attract kids away from the academy if the kids see that more kids are getting a chance to make a high level in those sports than to go through six years of being in the academy only to be still overlooked for kids from the riverina, canberra or traditional states.

    The academies for all their perceived success are yet to yield that many more AFL recruits to the game - you can almost count on one hand how many non traditional area recruits (ie outside of Riverina and Canberra) have been taken by Giants and Swans over the past five or so years and almost on one finger how many have been taken by other clubs.

    It seems that if the swans or giants dont take them up the other clubs subsequently take the view that "they couldnt be good enough for them so they arent good enough for us".

    I may be over estimating the strength of the Swans academy but the results each year continue to show how strong they are becoming, yet the final results in terms of ultimate recognition do not . While the current draft crop of Campbell and Gulden are obviously grabbing some attention, the draft age from last year had no draftees and you then look at the 16s from last year (which follow campbell and guldens year) .

    At that age , the swans won the 16 series against the giants academy 3-0, they then made up about half of the RAMs squad which then went undefeated against QLD , Tassy and the NT. Yet , the only NSW player picked in the all australian team was from the riverina and only one other from Canberra was picked in the NAB Academy programme. The results just dont match up for me and it would seem a perverse conclusion to come to, that from a swans squad that whitewashed the giants , that then had its stronger players form half of a NSW squad that was undefeated in Div 2, that not one player was good enough for further accolades yet their giants, tassy and qld academy counterparts were.

    Either way - if the plan is just to continue the academies and nothing else , growth of the game in NSW will continue but will plateau in my view if the continued result is that a couple of kids might be given an opportunity at the highest level and beyond that it falls of a cliff as to possible pathways.
    Amen. The Academies will lose quite a bit of their fizz when all that happens is mum and dad lose the kids to Adelaide or Melbourne always and don't get a chance on an AFL list. I agree and I'm a bit p...d that the Swannies haven't taken more local lads in the last 2 or 3 years to be honest, I think some lads deserved a chance but its as you say if the giants or swannies don't pick them nearly always no one does, which is flawed I agree. I guess the NEAFL with all its faults has at least provided reasonable development for 2s players and provided higher standard footy for more lads at home in Sydney/Canberra - 2 community teams and Swans/GWS top ups has meant lots of second tier footy for lots of locals, from 17yrs through to much later if they want. The reality is that a lot of the lads in the NEAFL sides/top ups would be playing rugger in the Shute Shield or similar if the pathway doesn't stack up. Just when it looked like we were making inroads - if focus is lost the implications could be huge.

  4. #16
    Very wise words lately in this thread. It's the same Victorians that dismiss V'landys and the NRL who are actively working behind the scenes at every opportunity against the swans. And they have connections everywhere in NSW.

    We, the swans, are also part of the problem. We need more NSW born and bred people in control. So often you met and AFL person in Sydney and they originate from Victoria. They want to create "little-victoria" in a pocket of Sydney. We need to create a NSW identity of what it means to play, like, and watch Aussie rules.

  5. #17
    Revisor of revisionisms Ruck'n'Roll's Avatar
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    I was thinking of including "Swans continuing disinclination to draft Sydney kids" in the list of AFL missteps, but held back because while Hayes, McVeigh, Breust, Rampe were a while ago I'm not across underage footy.

    But after reading Mr Magoo's post, maybe there is an ongoing problem, it just doesn't seem to make sense that the Swans kids can dominate but then go no further.

    I've added it at #5

    #1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
    #2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
    #3 Selling the Swans to a bunch of corporate cowboys that stuffed up the Swans in the late 80's
    #4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup
    #5 Swans continuing disinclination to draft Sydney kids
    #6 The stupid (and short lived) NSW Scholarship Scheme
    #7 The COLA cancellation didn't help
    Last edited by Ruck'n'Roll; 6th June 2020 at 02:45 PM.
    "Buddy Goggles" are a bit like "Beer Goggles"
    They distort peoples view of reality, cause people to say silly things and are often followed by a nasty hangover.

  6. #18
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    Having seen plenty of the Academy kids over the years, I remain unconvinced that they are actually any good, beyond serving the purpose of encouraging young NSW juniors to take up the code. There haven't been too many academy kids that I've rated as potential prospects for the highest level. Even recent kids to have gone through like Parks, Rayner, Ellem and Thorne didn't have 'afl star' written on them from observing. So I don't think it's quite as simple as the Swans taking more local kids - they have to actually be good enough, and the gulf between the best (Heeney, Mills, Blakey) and the rest is too sparse.

    It makes me question the development within these academies themselves. All of the other academy lads beyond those three have not amounted to much. B. Jack, Davis, Foote, Brown, Bell... these are all local boys that we did take the punt on but got very little reward from. The academy has been talked up as a superstar factory, but is it possible that Heeney, Mills and Blakey still would have been great talents and high draft picks if they played juniors in Vic, SA or WA, and that maybe the academy isn't actually very good at developing players to be drafted??

  7. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBloods View Post
    ...,and that maybe the academy isn't actually very good at developing players to be drafted??
    I think you are right.
    Considering how long it's been running and how much has been spent, it doesn't seem to delivering.

  8. #20
    I think the point of the academy is that talented sydney kids don't get disadvantaged in their development compared to Victorian kids.

    A kid growing up in Melbourne is more immersed in football culture. They are playing at lunchtime at school from a young age. They may play for their local team and their school team. There is more chance of having experienced coaches and talent development programs.

    The academy gives the most talented kids regular access to coaches and training and a pathway into representative squads. If you take that away then it becomes more about luck whether someone like Heeney gets good local coaches up in Newcastle etc.

  9. #21
    I think it is about numbers as well. Last year there might have been 60-70 18yos drafted from the whole country. And of those a lot won't make much impact at afl level in their first two seasons. So I think it is unlikely for the academy to produce top players every single year. I don't think Bell and Wicks are doing too badly.

  10. #22
    I don't think anyone disputes the ideal and wants to drop academies. We want them to work better and deliver more.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    I don't think anyone disputes the ideal and wants to drop academies. We want them to work better and deliver more.
    +1 this.

  12. #24
    Revisor of revisionisms Ruck'n'Roll's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone doubts that the Swans Academy has improved the standard of football in Sydney. But the question has been raised - what are the Swans getting from the investment?

    Excluding Blakey who was always going to make an AFL list, so far 10 other Academy graduates have made it onto the Swans lists (Sam Naismith, Isaac Heeney, Callum Mills, Jordan Foote, Abe Davis, Jack Hiscox, Daniel Robinson, Jake Brown, James Bell and Sam Wicks.)
    Excluding those whose fate is undecided, when Academy graduates do make it onto the list, 50% make worthy contributions - which seems a better strike rate than the draftee average.

    So the quality seems about right, I don't think anyone expects the Academy to pop up a 300 game champion every year, at least for now - but is an average of 1 Academy kid making the Swans list per year an adequate return? Or should we be seeing more listings?
    "Buddy Goggles" are a bit like "Beer Goggles"
    They distort peoples view of reality, cause people to say silly things and are often followed by a nasty hangover.

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