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Thread: Horse was on Footy Classified

  1. #1
    Revisor of revisionisms Ruck'n'Roll's Avatar
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    Horse was on Footy Classified

    Horse was on Footy Classified last night - numerous topics touched upon.

    Buddy/Sam's/Daniher's injury injuries

    I'll skip over all the predictable and dull waffle about how wonderful Bud's condition was - long story short, it's a bad tear but Horse expects him back this season.

    Andrew Russell (ex Hawthorn High Performance guru, now at the Blues) suggested that Buddy needed to shed some kilo's to get the best out of his latter years.
    When asked to comment, Horse wouldn't be drawn on the suggestion, but suggested commenting on another clubs players like that was inappropriate.

    Then Cornes asked him to comment on JD's situation, he politely pointed out that given his response to the Russell suggestion - he wouldn't be commenting on an Essendon player. He really is the calmest of Equidae.

    While Horse remains confident that Bud has plenty of good footy left, he highlighted two Bud-positives
    a) We wanted to make grand finals and
    b) because his presence has helped young players develop (citing McCartin).

    The Future

    He was then asked about Tadgh, and he pointed out that it was a hard conversation and expressed his hope that the AFL wasn't going to far in that area.

    The conversation moved to the Eastern Seaboard Competition, noting it wouldn't be the VFL and suggested that while it sounded ok, the details were important.

    He pointed out that last year our NEAFL team fronted up with as few as 10 listed players (including rookies) and wondered how a team could field a competitive reserves team if the lists are trimmed by 10.

    He then went even further with a note of caution saying how he was hearing how good the AFL will be when we get through the covid thing - but he isn't sure. Will the cuts go too far he asked? Will they hurt the product? What happens to those players that need development?

    Some of his comments on the future, echoed those made by some of the more thoughtful RWOers.
    Last edited by Ruck'n'Roll; 2nd June 2020 at 06:32 PM.
    "Buddy Goggles" are a bit like "Beer Goggles"
    They distort peoples view of reality, cause people to say silly things and are often followed by a nasty hangover.

  2. #2
    pr. dim-melb; m not f
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    Thanks for that R'n'R - very much appreciated.

    It is fascinating and I think valuable to see Horse quietly raising warning signals.
    He reminds him of the guys, close-set, slow, and never rattled, who were play-makers on the team. (John Updike, seeing Josh Kennedy in a crystal ball)

  3. #3
    There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

    https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...30-p54xz7.html

    It did not take too many games to reach the sobering conclusion that the AFL's 2015-20 product is an inferior spectacle to the footy that spanned the mid '80s until sometime in the 2000s ... The players were spread all over the field, rather than compacted into one half. Key forwards like 'Plugger' "stayed at home". They were competing against one defender and an occasional ruckman and Lockett and Ablett 1.0 weren't averse to jumping into the brave defender who stood "in the hole". When teams had the ball, their intention was clear: to score... Today ... the player with the ball is coached to consider, not just scoring potential, but to protect against a "dangerous" turnover...

    In some quarters, a hope has been expressed that, amid the financial carnage, the game might improve by "going backwards", that the AFL spectacle could benefit from fewer coaches teaching the players to defend first, that a diminished professionalism could even see a hybrid part-time player.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Markwebbos View Post
    There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

    https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...30-p54xz7.html

    It did not take too many games to reach the sobering conclusion that the AFL's 2015-20 product is an inferior spectacle to the footy that spanned the mid '80s until sometime in the 2000s ... The players were spread all over the field, rather than compacted into one half. Key forwards like 'Plugger' "stayed at home". They were competing against one defender and an occasional ruckman and Lockett and Ablett 1.0 weren't averse to jumping into the brave defender who stood "in the hole". When teams had the ball, their intention was clear: to score... Today ... the player with the ball is coached to consider, not just scoring potential, but to protect against a "dangerous" turnover...

    In some quarters, a hope has been expressed that, amid the financial carnage, the game might improve by "going backwards", that the AFL spectacle could benefit from fewer coaches teaching the players to defend first, that a diminished professionalism could even see a hybrid part-time player.
    The idea was picked up by Richard Hinds of the ABC: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-...-game/12308318

  5. #5
    Thanks RnR for sharing and for summing it up so neatly.

    Equidae! 😂

    Not sure I agree that it is not the media punditry's role to comment on individual players, regardless of which club they're at, especially when one is as well qualified to do so as a senior and long time high performance coach. It's only an opinion. Possibly Russell shouldn't have taken on the media gig while he's still working in clubland, but that's a different issue. Sounds like rather there's a tacit understanding by clubland that this is not done. But maybe Fox is shaking this up a bit if they're hiring Russell to offer his thoughts? And perhaps Horse was offering a bit of pushback against this new direction? Russell will be in a tricky spot if his paymasters continue to require him to go 'there' but he keeps getting slapped down by people like John Longmire.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markwebbos View Post
    There is a school of thought, put forward by Jake Niall at TMOFKA Fairfax that footy used to be better and the joy has been coached out of it. That a return to a less professional product would be an improvement.

    https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/...30-p54xz7.html
    I'm always suspicious of any "things used to be better" argument.
    First, "better" is subjective - what does it mean?
    Second, human memories are selective and unreliable.

    And third - surely Jake realises that TV only replays the better games? I bet there were plenty of ordinary games pre-2000.

    I've seen plenty of great games in my 17 years of watching, and some stinkers too. But I don't have a strong sense of any trends for "better" or "worse" over time.

  7. #7
    I hope the discussions around NEAFL continue. There must be a strong second tier eastern competition that encompasses non afl sides from NSW, Queensland and ACT. Otherwise there is no pathway for talented players from those areas who do not get drafted, other than to leave the state. This can not be good for the growth of the game in the east, and will be a disincentive for players to join the sport or stay. I really feel for the Angus Bakers and others who may be lost. Whilst I don't mind the 14 team east coast AFL reserves comp, it is clear it simply has a development focus. I hope the additional option of a fully fledged semi pro/non afl eastern comp one day becomes viable. Something that encompasses top non afl VFL teams, southport, canberra, sydney uni etc that rivals sanfl and wafl for $ would be awesome. The sides would need a clear funding structure including premises (like south port has) that raise revenue.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by neilfws View Post
    I'm always suspicious of any "things used to be better" argument.
    First, "better" is subjective - what does it mean?
    Second, human memories are selective and unreliable.

    And third - surely Jake realises that TV only replays the better games? I bet there were plenty of ordinary games pre-2000.

    I've seen plenty of great games in my 17 years of watching, and some stinkers too. But I don't have a strong sense of any trends for "better" or "worse" over time.
    It’s worth reading the Jake Niall article. It’s not a very difficult paywall to navigate around.

    He’s been watching reruns of old games, so he does at least have the evidence of his eyes, rather than relying on his memory.

    He freely admits that he’s watching good games from this “golden age” and not seeing the dross.

    But the point he makes (and those are the bits I pasted) is that the game was played in a different spirit then. A simpler, more attacking way. And that despite the lower skill level and fitness, it was subjectively more enjoyable to watch.

    And objectively higher scoring.

    We should all duck off to youtube and watch random games from the late 90s / early noughties, then report back

  9. #9
    It's the tight shorts and head high tackles that put me off the old games.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markwebbos View Post
    It’s worth reading the Jake Niall article. It’s not a very difficult paywall to navigate around.

    He’s been watching reruns of old games, so he does at least have the evidence of his eyes, rather than relying on his memory.

    He freely admits that he’s watching good games from this “golden age” and not seeing the dross.

    But the point he makes (and those are the bits I pasted) is that the game was played in a different spirit then. A simpler, more attacking way. And that despite the lower skill level and fitness, it was subjectively more enjoyable to watch.

    And objectively higher scoring.

    We should all duck off to youtube and watch random games from the late 90s / early noughties, then report back
    The problem with the good games from the current era is they would be considered poor games in the 80s and 90s. I was at the MCG on grand final day in 2018, and there was plenty of adrenaline having just watched a very tight contest with a thrilling finish. But over the four quarters of that match, I was never impressed by the football on display. There were still as many missed targets, wasted opportunities, rolling scrums and bad decisions as any other match. Were it not a grand final on the G in front of 100k, I have no doubt it would've faded into obscurity, save for Sheed's remarkable goal. Instead it is hyped up as one of the best grand finals ever.

    People who say that were obviously not there in 84, 89 or even 94, which despite being a blow-out was one of the most awesome displays of might ever by the WCE. Or 07, which was the biggest blow-out in grand final history but was still a pleasure to watch that Geelong team armed with supreme skills and chemistry as a team.

    It has become too much about the contest and not enough about the football. Fans will excuse three quarters of rubbish if the last quarter ends in a tight finish with a singular highlight.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry View Post
    It's the tight shorts and head high tackles that put me off the old games.
    Agree Barry, there was no shortage of thuggery. By the way Peter Caven put his body in the way of Plugger by some distance and still got his head rearranged.

  12. #12
    Revisor of revisionisms Ruck'n'Roll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barracuda View Post
    I hope the discussions around NEAFL continue. There must be a strong second tier eastern competition that encompasses non afl sides from NSW, Queensland and ACT. Otherwise there is no pathway for talented players from those areas who do not get drafted, other than to leave the state. This can not be good for the growth of the game in the east, and will be a disincentive for players to join the sport or stay. I really feel for the Angus Bakers and others who may be lost. Whilst I don't mind the 14 team east coast AFL reserves comp, it is clear it simply has a development focus. I hope the additional option of a fully fledged semi pro/non afl eastern comp one day becomes viable. Something that encompasses top non afl VFL teams, southport, canberra, sydney uni etc that rivals sanfl and wafl for $ would be awesome. The sides would need a clear funding structure including premises (like south port has) that raise revenue.
    I fear you are correct.

    From the point of view of game development in the eastern states, I fear this will be another retrograde step by the AFL.

    I don't know whether the AFL's attitude to game development outside Victoria is genuine organisational schizophrenia, or just the need to appease the Melbourne Football Mafia. I suspect the latter, but it's not helpful.

    The march of Soccer should have been halted and the NRL and ARU should have been locked safely away in their own sporting ghetto by now.

    We can only hope the NRL, even with the tumescent V'landys in the saddle do not have the capability of taking advantage of AFL missteps.

    Speaking of AFL mis-steps in NSW, here's my list

    #1 Changing the plan and sending the Swans to Sydney unassisted must surely be #1
    #2 The almost complete loss of the ACT
    #3 Letting corporate cowboys stuff up the Swans in the late 80's
    #4 Excluding the Rams for the TAC cup is probably
    #5 The NSW Scholarship Scheme is a little lower on the list
    #6 The COLA cancellation didn't help

    Have I missed anything?
    Last edited by Ruck'n'Roll; 4th June 2020 at 03:23 PM.
    "Buddy Goggles" are a bit like "Beer Goggles"
    They distort peoples view of reality, cause people to say silly things and are often followed by a nasty hangover.

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