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Thread: 2021 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

  1. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by greeng View Post
    The injuries are piling up early in the season as usual and once again we are left without a ruckman. The poor disposal seems to be creeping back in and without Heeney and Hickey, it's the predictable kick it to Franklin game plan. Might get him a few goals, but it won't win many games.
    Wonder if they might think of resting Buddy this week and bring in McLean. Wicks and Goulden rend to be slideshows when he is playing. Predictability of kicking to Buddy didn't cost us the game and he was BOG but it is a dilemma concerning development of Mcdonald as well. Our best footy was played v Lions and Tigers.

  2. #278
    Ego alta, ergo ictus Ruck'n'Roll's Avatar
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    Wrong thread
    Last edited by Ruck'n'Roll; 18th April 2021 at 07:58 PM.
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  3. #279
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    I know that I made a couple of negative comments about Melican, but I still think we should persist with him. It's still just his 1st game of the season. I suppose I've taken on some comments that he will never improve and beginning to wonder about that myself. Our defence needs some fixing. We have to be able to cover for the loss of Rampe. It's just something a good side needs to do, i.e. cover for players when they get injured.

    We will have to find someone to fill that key defender spot, even when Rampe returns, as our defence was too porous even with Rampe in the side. We should give Melican a few games to settle in and find his feet before looking for the next option, which is either Brand or O'Conner.

  4. #280
    I remember Grundy first few years still sending some shocking kicks to the opposition...........Melican has been signed for 3 years for hopefully a win win contract arrangement.

    He may become like Squizzy Taylor, Brand, Clarke, Thurlow, Gray have been so far ie a deeper squad that can play a role when required or equally if injuries go his way and he gets time in Snrs he may level jump and become a regular.

    Way to hard for me to say as yet because he hasnt approached his growth edge of less week to week errors. I see upside in the Pelican..........if he takes out on or two errors on a more regular basis

    I suppose the question is "why do we have so many of these more medium salaried players on our list?" vs alternative options that demand best 22 game time?
    Last edited by Auntie.Gerald; 19th April 2021 at 03:41 PM.
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  5. #281
    Our biggest problem is not Lewis Taylor or Brand or Thurlow or Gray who were brought in knowing their ceiling. Our biggest problem is to get the best out of players such as Ryan Clarke, Will Gould, Matt Ling, Amartey as they are relatively young and mouldable. Ling has lost a lot of time unfortunately with injury and he is serviceable. But not sure where the other three are going. Clarke seems to have been brought as an inside midfielder who we could develop but he is going nowhere. Will Gould seems to struggle in the defence even at a lower level and Amartey I haven't seen enough of to comment.
    We may have mucked up our draft couple of years ago by overthinking about the potential (not that you could blame it completely on KB). Dylan Stephens, Will Gould, and Elijah Taylor .... good potential, but one already gone, one struggling and one yet to meet expectations. I know its early days but this is what happens that results in teams getting stuck with players who don't necessarily meet the potential.

  6. #282
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    I feel we have too much talent in the midfield and are severely lacking elsewhere.

    We currently have Stephens and Rowbottom, both excellent players, unable to get in the 22 whilst being in the best 22 players on talent.

    Meanwhile we are needing to select players like McLean, Sinclair and Melican who are all serviceable, but better suited to VFL.

  7. #283
    Travelling Swannie!! mcs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    I feel we have too much talent in the midfield and are severely lacking elsewhere.

    We currently have Stephens and Rowbottom, both excellent players, unable to get in the 22 whilst being in the best 22 players on talent.

    Meanwhile we are needing to select players like McLean, Sinclair and Melican who are all serviceable, but better suited to VFL.
    Is it not to some degree a product of where we are in the development cycle?

    One could argue you can in theory carry some weakness in the forward/defensive lines, but ultimately you can't win premierships without a high quality midfield (or at least a very even, high performing midfield). We've certainly prioritised that part of the ground in more recent years it seems in our recruiting (a little skewed too by the academy talent coming through too I guess in recent years being consolidated broadly into that part of the ground - - need to find a good KPD from the academy next!).

    Might leave us a bit unbalanced at the moment as you say Captain, but might also give us a bit of leeway/currency when we get to a point of trying to fill the 'gaps'. And my take (happy for others to show me otherwise) but I feel like its been a fair while since we've had really strong depth at either end of the ground - certainly even pre-buddy we were pretty reliant on broadly having a fairly fit first 22 in terms of those key sorts of positions.
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  8. #284
    Travelling Swannie!! mcs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwanSand View Post
    Our biggest problem is not Lewis Taylor or Brand or Thurlow or Gray who were brought in knowing their ceiling. Our biggest problem is to get the best out of players such as Ryan Clarke, Will Gould, Matt Ling, Amartey as they are relatively young and mouldable. Ling has lost a lot of time unfortunately with injury and he is serviceable. But not sure where the other three are going. Clarke seems to have been brought as an inside midfielder who we could develop but he is going nowhere. Will Gould seems to struggle in the defence even at a lower level and Amartey I haven't seen enough of to comment.
    We may have mucked up our draft couple of years ago by overthinking about the potential (not that you could blame it completely on KB). Dylan Stephens, Will Gould, and Elijah Taylor .... good potential, but one already gone, one struggling and one yet to meet expectations. I know its early days but this is what happens that results in teams getting stuck with players who don't necessarily meet the potential.
    While nothing needs to be said about Taylor, I think your being a bit harsh on Gould. He is over-hyped by many on the basis of some good SANFL performances in his draft year - I don't say 'over-hyped' on the basis of being no good, but on the basis that people are expecting a lot very quickly. Remember there was zero reserves footy last year either (outside scratch matches) - and we've long had a tradition of a lot of defenders serving pretty hefty reserves apprenticeships.
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  9. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs View Post
    Is it not to some degree a product of where we are in the development cycle?

    One could argue you can in theory carry some weakness in the forward/defensive lines, but ultimately you can't win premierships without a high quality midfield (or at least a very even, high performing midfield). We've certainly prioritised that part of the ground in more recent years it seems in our recruiting (a little skewed too by the academy talent coming through too I guess in recent years being consolidated broadly into that part of the ground - - need to find a good KPD from the academy next!).

    Might leave us a bit unbalanced at the moment as you say Captain, but might also give us a bit of leeway/currency when we get to a point of trying to fill the 'gaps'. And my take (happy for others to show me otherwise) but I feel like its been a fair while since we've had really strong depth at either end of the ground - certainly even pre-buddy we were pretty reliant on broadly having a fairly fit first 22 in terms of those key sorts of positions.
    I think there are a few more factors at play, and if you look at the lists of every other club I think you'd see the same pattern.

    There are relatively fewer top quality key position players, especially forwards. It's the hardest position to play, and while it is glamorous if you make it, it also brings more scrutiny and pressure. The number of 193 cm (or thereabouts) people is lower than those half a foot shorter, and few of those are both athletic and skilled. It is thus tougher for clubs to recruit high quality key forwards (and to a lesser extent, quality key defenders).

    There are also limited spots in a team for key position players. That might seem like a good thing, given my paragraph above, but it makes it much harder to retain quality depth if a club is lucky enough to find itself with AFL-standard key position players not able to get a game. If you're an up and coming midfielder who is on the cusp of senior footy, you are more likely to bide your time (for a short while) and believe that an opportunity will provide itself in one of the dozen or more non-key position. That's less likely if you're stuck in a queue behind a couple of established, high quality key defenders or forwards in your squad. So the good depth will move to a club where they think they'll get a better shot.

    The second paragraph above certainly isn't exclusive to key position players, which is why it's hard for a club to retain quality depth right across the squad (and salary cap issues also come into play). But you can often get teenagers to come in and perform adequately in the non-key position roles, especially if they are surrounded by quality and experience. Even the best key position prospects almost always take two or three years before they are ready to contribute in a consistent, meaningful way.

  10. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by liz View Post
    I think there are a few more factors at play, and if you look at the lists of every other club I think you'd see the same pattern.

    There are relatively fewer top quality key position players, especially forwards. It's the hardest position to play, and while it is glamorous if you make it, it also brings more scrutiny and pressure. The number of 193 cm (or thereabouts) people is lower than those half a foot shorter, and few of those are both athletic and skilled. It is thus tougher for clubs to recruit high quality key forwards (and to a lesser extent, quality key defenders).

    There are also limited spots in a team for key position players. That might seem like a good thing, given my paragraph above, but it makes it much harder to retain quality depth if a club is lucky enough to find itself with AFL-standard key position players not able to get a game. If you're an up and coming midfielder who is on the cusp of senior footy, you are more likely to bide your time (for a short while) and believe that an opportunity will provide itself in one of the dozen or more non-key position. That's less likely if you're stuck in a queue behind a couple of established, high quality key defenders or forwards in your squad. So the good depth will move to a club where they think they'll get a better shot.

    The second paragraph above certainly isn't exclusive to key position players, which is why it's hard for a club to retain quality depth right across the squad (and salary cap issues also come into play). But you can often get teenagers to come in and perform adequately in the non-key position roles, especially if they are surrounded by quality and experience. Even the best key position prospects almost always take two or three years before they are ready to contribute in a consistent, meaningful way.
    As always Liz, well considered and interesting insights, from someone that has always has very clear and interesting views about the game we all enjoy. Your point around limited opportunities for key positions is a really important one I overlooked - and its certainly the case that we have benefitted over the years of key position players that have moved looking for opportunity (although not always at the end of the ground they expected it to occur at!).
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  11. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    I feel we have too much talent in the midfield and are severely lacking elsewhere.

    We currently have Stephens and Rowbottom, both excellent players, unable to get in the 22 whilst being in the best 22 players on talent.

    Meanwhile we are needing to select players like McLean, Sinclair and Melican who are all serviceable, but better suited to VFL.
    This is clearly not the case - our midfield depth looks poor against most clubs in the competition. For example, there aren't many teams where Stephens would be a first choice midfielder. The undefeated top teams both have a spectacular array of midfield talent, and we fall way short of their talent pool. But hopefully we'll get there soon!

  12. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcs View Post
    As always Liz, well considered and interesting insights, from someone that has always has very clear and interesting views about the game we all enjoy. Your point around limited opportunities for key positions is a really important one I overlooked - and its certainly the case that we have benefitted over the years of key position players that have moved looking for opportunity (although not always at the end of the ground they expected it to occur at!).
    I think the pressure element, especially on key forwards, can't be underplayed. The media and fans are prone to pump up the well performed players and demolish anyone even slightly underperforming. I suspect every single one of us on here is guilty of expressing frustration when someone we hoped would be the next tall superstar based on his first handful of games turned out just to be a solid contributor.

    Reid is a classic example. He has never quite developed into the star we hoped he might after his first season and a bit, but he's been a handy part of the team. He would have been even handier had he not succumbed to a few seasons of bad injury - hardly his fault, and also consistent with the fact it's a harder game to play when you're tall, not just in terms of the role, but also physically.

    As I stood and watched the EFL game on Saturday afternoon, it struck me how weird it was to see Paddy McCartin and Jesse Hogan contesting against each other on an unseasonably cool April day, not inside the SCG but on a paddock outside. And then I thought of Boyd, and Patton, and all the other "great tall hopes" who have fallen by the wayside (and I confess I "prayed a little prayer" for Logan).

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