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  1. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    How dare you accuse me of wanting a workplace of bullying and harassment. I want nothing of the kind.

    I actually think that sitting Barry in a room with 20 other players and having a young inexperienced person criticising him with the air cover of consultants could be considered a form of harassment by some people.

    In your workplace do you get stuck into other workers in front of 20 other people? Do you feel great when a more junior person berates you in front of 20 other people. You must endorse this conduct and think of it as feedback.

    Barry’s on field behaviour in 2008 and 2009 needed to be addressed. This is the responsibility of Paul Roos, the coaching staff, club psychologist and the senior players in the leadership group. Barry should be spoken to about this one on one in a respectful manner. Not a group forum. I’m sure these one on one discussions with the above parties occurred. That’s the respectful way of doing things.

    Why then to we need a young upstart chiming in as well?

    I’ve just done code of conduct training for my own workplace. In none of the modules does it advise you to air your grievances against another worker in front of 20 people. There are protocols to resolve differences and it’s not feedback in front of 20 people.
    You use terms like 'get stuck into' and 'berate'.....all very extreme. Did Barry say the YU* in question 'got stuck into him' or 'berate' him? I'm sure any feedback in that environment would have been done in a respectful manner, no belittling would have been allowed....emphasis would have been put on 'constructive' criticism/feedback, no matter how hard it might be for the recipient to hear. What do you expect in an 'honesty' session? Add to this, your workplace analogies are irrelevant to a sporting club environment....where the hierarchy is far more holistic. Yes, sport at this level is a business but you have to stop looking at everything in sport through a business lens, they are different beasts. Are you sure you're not Matt80? (was that his name?.....it's been awhile)

    In relation to your last point, I think we all know why in business "there are protocols to resolve differences and it’s not feedback in front of 20 people". That's because the less witnesses the better, enabling the management driven 'protocols', which are basically designed to pass the blame down the line to the lowest rung of the employment ladder (possibly a YU*), to smoothly take their course. I have personal experience in the way HR protocols can screw people unfairly while protecting those at the top. I refer again to my previous point....a footy club/team, however professional, is a vastly different beast to a straight business.

    Besides, that interview with Mike Sheahan was quite a few years ago. I would be quite confident Barry's mindset is a lot different now, having stuffed up in post footy public life and going through yet another redemptive period, finding relative peace in his personal life with wife and child and now having returned to the Swans fold. His opinion of this event all those years ago might well have changed.....to be more reflective of most posters here.

    To coin an old phrase.....'you're flogging a dead horse'.

    *young upstart.

  2. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    I would hope that Corey and Chad were respecting the senior players particularly Franklin, Hickey, Rampe, Kennedy and Parker. These guys can get feedback from each other and not young players. It’s called respect.

    On a personal note, I stuck up for you a lot last year when you were being attacked for having your opinions.

    I’ll let you now face your ditractors head on without sticking up for you.
    Dummy spit.

  3. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    That’s ridiculous. It’s the height of disrespect:

    These are real world examples of the upstart lecturing Barry:

    1) The medical resident can start lecturing the Chairmen of surgery in a group meeting:

    2) The para legal can start lecturing the managing partner in a group environment

    3 The work experience kid can start lecturing the CEO in a group meeting for playing golf with clients.

    The young upstart and Barry are not equals despite sharing the same football field.

    For a hypothetical, Chad has no right to ever lecture Franklin about anything to do with his football or preparation in a group meeting. Chad and Franklin are not equals. Chad’s trying to establish a senior career while Franklin is a Hall of Fame player. There would be no more Chadmania from me if I ever hear of him lecturing senior players in a group setting.
    It's for people like you that organizations like Leading Teams exist; people totally set in their old fashioned “this is how it’s always been done” mindset. You’re just wrong. The whole point is that Chad and Buddy ARE equals…in certain respects and in certain circumstances…like feedback sessions. These are partly to keep champions humble. It’s an extension of the playing mantra “kick it to the jumper, not the person.” The logical extension of your thinking would be that Buddy thinks he’s better than Chad and will only pass the ball to players of a certain status. Obviously that would be terrible on field. So, these types of sessions are partly to embed the entire mantra
    - We are all equal
    - We are all needed
    - We are all respected
    - We are in this TOGETHER

    So, to refute your point, BS, I would bet a large part of my house that Buddy would, absolutely, unequivocally accept negative feedback from Chad, in the appropriate circumstances. It’s interesting that Barry refused to do so. Frankly, it says a lot about him and the reason the Swans let him go.

  4. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by sharp9 View Post
    It's for people like you that organizations like Leading Teams exist; people totally set in their old fashioned “this is how it’s always been done” mindset. You’re just wrong. The whole point is that Chad and Buddy ARE equals…in certain respects and in certain circumstances…like feedback sessions. These are partly to keep champions humble. It’s an extension of the playing mantra “kick it to the jumper, not the person.” The logical extension of your thinking would be that Buddy thinks he’s better than Chad and will only pass the ball to players of a certain status. Obviously that would be terrible on field. So, these types of sessions are partly to embed the entire mantra
    - We are all equal
    - We are all needed
    - We are all respected
    - We are in this TOGETHER

    So, to refute your point, BS, I would bet a large part of my house that Buddy would, absolutely, unequivocally accept negative feedback from Chad, in the appropriate circumstances. It’s interesting that Barry refused to do so. Frankly, it says a lot about him and the reason the Swans let him go.
    If people think all players are equal then they are drinking the Kool Aid. If all players were equal then they would all be paid the same amount of money and be as important as each other.

    Players are not equal. They are paid according to their on-field capability and some players are much more important than others.

    As such older players who are superstars are structurally important and whom have won the biggest of games must be afforded a level of respect from the younger players.

    What is the young upstart going to tell Barry in the group forum that he doesn’t already know or has not already been made aware of by Paul Roos. Absolutely nothing. The young upstart in only saying it to appear like they are a leader. These were Barry’s words.

    A wonderful example of leadership by a young player was Michael Clarke supporting Shane Warne during the 2005 Ashes series. Shane was struggling with his marriage breakdown, was crying himself to sleep and was raiding the hotel mini bar. Michael Clarke spend time with Shane, listened to him, was a confidant and supported him.

    Shane responded by producing his greatest ever on-field series.

    Clarke didn’t walk into a Leading Teams meeting and say that Shane is drinking too much alcohol every night and is not fully prepared. That would have eroded all trust.

    Why couldn’t the Swans young player supported Barry the way Clarke supported Warne.

  5. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by sharp9 View Post
    It's for people like you that organizations like Leading Teams exist; people totally set in their old fashioned “this is how it’s always been done” mindset. You’re just wrong. The whole point is that Chad and Buddy ARE equals…in certain respects and in certain circumstances…like feedback sessions. These are partly to keep champions humble. It’s an extension of the playing mantra “kick it to the jumper, not the person.” The logical extension of your thinking would be that Buddy thinks he’s better than Chad and will only pass the ball to players of a certain status. Obviously that would be terrible on field. So, these types of sessions are partly to embed the entire mantra
    - We are all equal
    - We are all needed
    - We are all respected
    - We are in this TOGETHER

    So, to refute your point, BS, I would bet a large part of my house that Buddy would, absolutely, unequivocally accept negative feedback from Chad, in the appropriate circumstances. It’s interesting that Barry refused to do so. Frankly, it says a lot about him and the reason the Swans let him go.
    I suspect that the Swans electing to part ways with Barry was multi factorial.

    Feedback was likely one. In his autobiography I got the impression that this was an issue. He seemed to perceive a lack of support at times from the playing group - the leadership group was mentioned more than once - and coaching staff (both privately and publicly). He intimated that the feedback from coaches (especially Paul Roos) was perhaps disingenuous.

    His multiple reports and suspensions being another. In the autobiography Barry owns his mistakes (albeit with often an air of defensiveness and occasional deflection).

    Hall also suspected that Roos courted Fev as his potential replacement toward the end of Barry’s contract, further eroding Hall’s confidence in his position in the team.

    Hall’s perception of his treatment by the media and the umpires as his career with the Swans progressed may also have contributed.

    Barry also seemed distracted by off field influences. Relationships, the prospect of a boxing career.

    And perhaps his role in the side. Watching him play, I often had the perception that he was team oriented - passing to team mates in better positions, covering plenty of ground. The year he almost claimed a Coleman with us, in his last game of that season he passed off many opportunities to team mates. But he specifically says in his autobiography that he appreciated the coaching staff wanting to be a more focal point as a forward and that he disagreed with their game plan.

    These are just my impressions. But feedback from younger teammates was certainly not one of them.
    Last edited by goswannies; 20th January 2022 at 11:03 PM.

  6. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    Players are not equal. They are paid according to their on-field capability and some players are much more important than others.

    As such older players who are superstars are structurally important and whom have won the biggest of games must be afforded a level of respect from the younger players.
    Taking player salary as an indicator of their merit is a slippery (or should that be rather idiotic) slope, as there are many players who are paid highly who under perform.

    And I think you miss the point entirely (and repeatedly) - Leading Teams acknowledges that players earn more, have played more games, are older etc but that in the privacy of the inner sanctum meetings, despite the disparities, players should feel free to be considered equals and be heard as such by their peers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    A wonderful example of leadership by a young player was Michael Clarke supporting Shane Warne during the 2005 Ashes series. Shane was struggling with his marriage breakdown, was crying himself to sleep and was raiding the hotel mini bar. Michael Clarke spend time with Shane, listened to him, was a confidant and supported him.

    Shane responded by producing his greatest ever on-field series.

    Clarke didn’t walk into a Leading Teams meeting and say that Shane is drinking too much alcohol every night and is not fully prepared. That would have eroded all trust.

    Why couldn’t the Swans young player supported Barry the way Clarke supported Warne.
    Firstly, BS you don’t know what was said in any of the Australian Cricket team’s meetings. And seriously, all of the Swans players supported Barry over a long period of time until the frequency of brain fades became untenable. Brett Kirk very publicly summed up the situation in an press conference saying that he would “trust Barry with Kirk’s own children, he just wasn’t sure he could trust Hall on the football field”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    What is the young upstart going to tell Barry in the group forum that he doesn’t already know or has not already been made aware of by Paul Roos. Absolutely nothing. The young upstart in only saying it to appear like they are a leader. These were Barry’s words.
    Have you read his autobiography?? One Barry’s major grievances was that Roosey often didn’t make him aware of many things and that communication deteriorated between them. These were Barry’s words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    ”As such older players who are superstars are structurally important and whom have won the biggest of games must be afforded a level of respect from the younger players.”
    I’m sorry but I can’t agree with this. Such an attitude would quell the development of young players preventing them, or slow tracking their trajectory to “champion status”.

    Divid Dench captain of North Melbourne at 20 years and 221 days in 1972. I assume he was vocal to a team list of whom the majority would have had more years and many more games experience on him.

    Haydn Bunton was 78 days older than Dench when he captained Fitzroy in 1932. He was a champion beyond measure.

    The Brisbane Lions selected a 21-year-old captain in Michael Voss at the start of 1997, while Stephen Kernahan was 23 when he became Carlton skipper in 1987. He led the Blues to a flag in his first year in the job. Are they “upstarts” (a disrespectful term, IMO, directed at an unnamed elite AFL footballer from a supporter behind a keyboard who likely never played at that level)?

    John Worsfold at 22 became captain of West Coast in 1991.

    In 1993 North Melbourne elected a 21-year-old Wayne Carey as skipper which produced 2 premierships in the following 7 years.

    Age and experience doesn’t always have anything to do with the charisma of leadership.

    Our own Paul Kelly might attest to that.
    Last edited by goswannies; 20th January 2022 at 11:15 PM.

  7. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    Why couldn’t the Swans young player supported Barry the way Clarke supported Warne.
    Please Bangalore, try and understand that the Swans employed a set of standards. You may not agree with the standards and procedures, but everyone who was a Swan at the time both understood and accepted them.

    No one is saying this is the best approach when it comes to team management. It was however, and most importantly, successful! It brought a premiership to Sydney for the first time and broke a drought of 72 years for the South Melbourne fans.

    If Barry Hall is sour about being told a few home truths then so bloody be it. Do you think he looks back and laments being part of that team and the standards that were set in place? Ask him if he would change it if he could, I bet I know what his answer would be.

  8. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by goswannies View Post
    Taking player salary as an indicator of their merit is a slippery (or should that be rather idiotic) slope, as there are many players who are paid highly who under perform.

    And I think you miss the point entirely (and repeatedly) - Leading Teams acknowledges that players earn more, have played more games, are older etc but that in the privacy of the inner sanctum meetings, despite the disparities, players should feel free to be considered equals and be heard as such by their peers.

    Firstly, BS you don’t know what was said in any of the Australian Cricket team’s meetings. And seriously, all of the Swans players supported Barry over a long period of time until the frequency of brain fades became untenable. Brett Kirk very publicly summed up the situation in an press conference saying that he would “trust Barry with Kirk’s own children, he just wasn’t sure he could trust Hall on the football field”.


    Have you read his autobiography?? One Barry’s major grievances was that Roosey often didn’t make him aware of many things and that communication deteriorated between them. These were Barry’s words.



    I’m sorry but I can’t agree with this. Such an attitude would quell the development of young players preventing them, or slow tracking their trajectory to “champion status”.

    Divid Dench captain of North Melbourne at 20 years and 221 days in 1972. I assume he was vocal to a team list of whom the majority would have had more years and many more games experience on him.

    Haydn Bunton was 78 days older than Dench when he captained Fitzroy in 1932. He was a champion beyond measure.

    The Brisbane Lions selected a 21-year-old captain in Michael Voss at the start of 1997, while Stephen Kernahan was 23 when he became Carlton skipper in 1987. He led the Blues to a flag in his first year in the job. Are they “upstarts” (a disrespectful term, IMO, directed at an unnamed elite AFL footballer from a supporter behind a keyboard who likely never played at that level)?

    John Worsfold at 22 became captain of West Coast in 1991.

    In 1993 North Melbourne elected a 21-year-old Wayne Carey as skipper which produced 2 premierships in the following 7 years.

    Age and experience doesn’t always have anything to do with the charisma of leadership.

    Our own Paul Kelly might attest to that.
    Couple of points:

    - I don’t know what was said in Australian Cricket team meetings. I do know that Warne seems a sensitive character and feedback in Leading Teams forums from young players would not have worked for Shane. Imagine the young Swan players and Brett Kirk piling into Shane if they had the chance. I’m sure he would not have produced the 2005 Ashes performance if they had. Michael Clarke forever has Shane’s friendship and respect due to the way he handled things.

    - I thought that press conference where Kirk publicly laid into Barry was very harsh. Maybe Kirk should look at someone like Tom Brady. Antonio Brown (Known as AB) is a brilliant NFL player but has a rap sheet of meltdowns and legal trouble with the law that makes Barry seem like a prefect. Antonio had been sacked from three teams but Brady knew what a brilliant footballer he was and how he needed support and people to encourage him. Brady encouraged Tampa to sign him and then invited him to live in his house and he and Giselle looked after him. They developed a strong friendship.

    AB was key in the Super Bowl victory of 2021.

    AB this year had a massive meltdown and walked out of a game. He was duly sacked. AB has since publicly questioned his friendship with Brady. All Brady said after AB’s mid game meltdown was that “it was a sad situation”.

    Brady has not gone the Brett Kirk rout and given AB a slap in a press conference. Brady is dignified and handles his business in house and with dignity.

    For all the Brett Kirk leadership inspired brilliance I note that he hadn’t risen to a role as head coach as yet and other players whom retired after 2010 have become head coaches.

    - I’ve never played AFL at the professional level. Have you? Has anyone on this forum have played at the highest level? If you have played at the professional level disclose it and you’ll have my full respect and I’ll treat your views and opinions as far better than my own opinions.

    - If you had read my earlier posts, you would have noted that I’ve said that players in the Leadership group or club captains can provide feedback to other players in group forums. A 21 year old Wayne Carey or Paul Kelly (a young captain) have the authority to provide feedback in group forums. That’s there authority and job. Wayne Carey, Paul Kelly and Kernahan were also their teams best players and the best players have more natural authority to provide feedback. I seriously doubt that the young upstart was one of the teams best players and certainly not as good as Goodes, Hall or Michael O.

    Melbourne appointed Jack Grimes and Jack Trengove as captains in 2012. They were both early 20s. A disaster and I’m assuming the feedback they tried to give older players in group forums didn’t work out.

    I don’t believe that young players being sensitive to older players in group settings impedes development. Young players have enough on their plate to worry about without lectureing senior players. Young players need to focus on becoming really good and for some becoming champions. They need to learn to live independently and everything else that comes with becoming a footballer. Younger players can learn so much from older players if they treat them with respect and ask them for advice.

  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by goswannies View Post
    experience doesn’t always have anything to do with the charisma of leadership.

    Our own Paul Kelly might attest to that.
    Thank you ! Beat me to it , Kells was made captain in his FOURTH year ! That is the same as if Jmac was made captain today . And no one thought anything of it . He didnt get to that position by being a lamb . He was the ultimate competitor and with that comes a certain kind of aggro ! I would know ! Its a good thing , healthy for a club and culture !

    Footballers are babied a bit too much these days . If they arent ready or are still learning then let them take their time , but if they are ready and can already play at a certain level or have the confidence to speak up and lead , then what good is it keeping them in the play pen , let em be themselves .

  10. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Goal Sneak View Post
    Please Bangalore, try and understand that the Swans employed a set of standards. You may not agree with the standards and procedures, but everyone who was a Swan at the time both understood and accepted them.

    No one is saying this is the best approach when it comes to team management. It was however, and most importantly, successful! It brought a premiership to Sydney for the first time and broke a drought of 72 years for the South Melbourne fans.

    If Barry Hall is sour about being told a few home truths then so bloody be it. Do you think he looks back and laments being part of that team and the standards that were set in place? Ask him if he would change it if he could, I bet I know what his answer would be.
    Barry has moved on and we all look forward to the SBW bout on March 23.

    It’s my opinion but I believe the Swans overplay their culture as a reason for their victories over the last 25 years. The Swans have been coached brilliantly since 1995. Barassi, Eade, Roos and Longmire have been brilliant. The game plans and tactics suited the players during those times and a majority of games was won.

    Recruitment has also been sensational both in the draft and for existing AFL players.

    If you get best value out of recruits, have high performing players and have brilliant coaches who design the best game plans you are going to be successful.

    Culture is down the pecking order and certainly behind recruitment, playing ability, coaching and game plans.

    Simple fact is a winning team are often a happy team.

  11. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBloods View Post
    Thank you ! Beat me to it , Kells was made captain in his FOURTH year ! That is the same as if Jmac was made captain today . And no one thought anything of it . He didnt get to that position by being a lamb . He was the ultimate competitor and with that comes a certain kind of aggro ! I would know ! Its a good thing , healthy for a club and culture !

    Footballers are babied a bit too much these days . If they arent ready or are still learning then let them take their time , but if they are ready and can already play at a certain level or have the confidence to speak up and lead , then what good is it keeping them in the play pen , let em be themselves .
    I’ve said that players can be appointed captain young in their career. Paul Kelly has the authority to give feedback as a young captain because that’s his right and authority.

    I don’t believe the young player who criticised Barry in a group forum was a captain but that person was ambitious for leadership and wanted to impress the coaching staff by putting Barry under the bus.

  12. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore Swans View Post
    Barry has moved on and we all look forward to the SBW bout on March 23.

    It’s my opinion but I believe the Swans overplay their culture as a reason for their victories over the last 25 years. The Swans have been coached brilliantly since 1995. Barassi, Eade, Roos and Longmire have been brilliant. The game plans and tactics suited the players during those times and a majority of games was won.

    Recruitment has also been sensational both in the draft and for existing AFL players.

    If you get best value out of recruits, have high performing players and have brilliant coaches who design the best game plans you are going to be successful.

    Culture is down the pecking order and certainly behind recruitment, playing ability, coaching and game plans.

    Simple fact is a winning team are often a happy team.
    Hi Bangalore,

    It is true that a club won't succeed without excellent recruitment, players with ability, coaching performances and game plans.

    Your argument would be a strong one if you didn't ignore the fact that all of those things are what makes up culture!!

    They all have a domino effect! Without strong recruitment we will have players either lacking ability or of a questionable character that makes them hard to coach. There would then be a disconnect between the coach and the playing group, and the game plan will not come together!

    So all of the things you think are more important than culture are actually the very definition of "culture"!

    Also - a winning team is NOT always a happy team!! How quickly did the culture of Adelaide Crows and Collingwood disintegrate after appearing in grand finals?? They were winning sides yes, but clubs obviously lacking the culture to avoid the sharp downward turn! We were humiliated in the 2014 GF. I know, I was there!! Our club could've done what the Crows & Pies did - panic, overreact, make drastic list management decisions, make changes within the club! We did not do this - we relied on our culture and it got us to ANOTHER grand final two years later!! That is culture right before your eyes!!

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