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Thread: Hawthorn racism review

  1. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111431 View Post
    They may have been given a series of questions but, I don't think, they have had access to the full report. That is very important. I'm a big fan of the ABC but I believe they have been irresponsible publishing these allegations
    While I have no real idea of how the Russell Jackson story came about, it seems to me that the most likely scenario, is that he was probably approached by people who participated in the internal Hawthorn report and who may have got the feeling that report was in the process of being buried. If that's the case, then Russell Jackson and the ABC, would then have to evaluate whether they believed what the three couples were saying in their interviews. If they thought that their stories were true, then not publishing would have led to probably quite justified accusations of cowardice or paternalism. And apparently, there is some sort of email and phone trail that backs up their allegations.

    Anyway, that's all just assumption on my part, but I don't really have much time for alternative scenarios, like: a respected, high quality journalist is just making crap up; or that he's being taken in by three ex-Hawthorn players and their partners, who for some unexplained reason, have decided to run a coordinated and vindictive campaign against their former employer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dejavoodoo44 View Post
    While I have no real idea of how the Russell Jackson story came about, it seems to me that the most likely scenario, is that he was probably approached by people who participated in the internal Hawthorn report and who may have got the feeling that report was in the process of being buried. If that's the case, then Russell Jackson and the ABC, would then have to evaluate whether they believed what the three couples were saying in their interviews. If they thought that their stories were true, then not publishing would have led to probably quite justified accusations of cowardice or paternalism. And apparently, there is some sort of email and phone trail that backs up their allegations.

    Anyway, that's all just assumption on my part, but I don't really have much time for alternative scenarios, like: a respected, high quality journalist is just making crap up; or that he's being taken in by three ex-Hawthorn players and their partners, who for some unexplained reason, have decided to run a coordinated and vindictive campaign against their former employer.
    We haven't had a chance to evaluate any possible alternative scenarios yet. Clarkson vehemently denies the charges. For all his faults, never thought of him as being dishonest. At the very least, let's wait and see what his defence is. Not that it will necessarily save his career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post

    The allegations seem outrageous by any normal persons standards and completely out of character for the two main protagonists named, regardless of your personal opinion of them.
    I am sorry caj23, but do you know Clarke and Pagan personally, particularly during the period in question? Can you please describe their character to me? They appear to be broadly normal people? Good people can also do things which are out of character when they are under stress.

    Most of us on this site only know Clarke and Fagan by what we have seen on the TV, and we only know their public coaching face, and not what they do inside the club. I am not saying they have done it, but it is impossible for someone who hasn't interacted them personally over many years to know their character, and thus whether an action is then, in or out of character.

    There are psychologists who say that an 'out of character' defence is a false argument (when arguing for leniency at sentencing, or when asking a partner for forgiveness after a one night stand), because the vulnerability to do bad thing exist in that person's character, otherwise they wouldn't have done the act at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post

    The idea that coaches would ask to take your SIM card as a means from removing a person from their family seems preposterous and nonsensical
    The allegations which are preposterous and nonsensical to you, are not surprising to respected First Nations people, including Eddie Betts and Ben Abbatangelo. An act of evil sounding too preposterous to be true, is not a defence that it didn't happen, just the same as an allegation of evil doing is only an allegation until proven to be true..

    I am not saying Fagan and Clarke have done it, and they have a right of reply. There are cases of false accusation, or embellishment of the truth.

    Some may call this trial by media, but however, when three unrelated families have given their side of the story (with reference to emails and diary entries), it is sounding to me that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Only time (and further investigations) will tell us whether that somewhere in the middle is closer to what the former players and families are alleging or Clarke's strong denial.

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    Fagan has now also released a statement saying he strongly denies the allegations.

  5. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by dejavoodoo44 View Post
    Doesn't necessarily make the claims true, of course, but I'm sure that they would have sought to establish, that there's reasonable grounds to believe the claims and that publishing could be in the public interest.
    I work for the ABC, although not as a journo. They’d have given Clarko, Fagan etc the right to reply to a list of written questions covering the allegations.

    That gave them an opportunity to defend themselves prior to the article being published. It also gave them a heads up that these allegations will be aired in public.

    The ABC is reporting the content of the report straight, without owning it. So it doesn’t need to verify the truth of the claims, only that they have been made.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maltopia View Post
    Fagan has now also released a statement saying he strongly denies the allegations.
    If he’d done that when the ABC invited him, they would had to include it in the story. Not sure why he didn’t issue a denial then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltopia View Post
    Fagan has now also released a statement saying he strongly denies the allegations.
    Understand why the complainants names have been kept confidential. Not sure why the same doesn't apply to Fagan and Clarkson until the allegations are tested through an independent investigation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velour&Ruffles View Post
    It will no doubt be a terribly unfashionable comment to make, but I do this stuff for a living. I am extremely uncomfortable with the fact that this report has been published without, according to the reports, Clarkson, Fagan or Burt being even spoken to. Maybe the allegations are 100% true, maybe they're not. But to publish a report like this - and potentially destroy careers - without even speaking with those directly implicated, is frankly horrendous. If any of us were thinking of ourselves or anyone we cared about we would want something fairer than that.

    As it happens, I detest Clarkson. I detest Newbold. I think both were beyond abysmal during the Goodes saga (and I was there, and positively nauseous, that awful day at the MCG). The Hawthorn Football Club was pathetic and its key figures were pathetic. In a way I rejoice in their suffering. But two wrongs do not make a right and the way this is unfolding is simply not right.
    Horrendous?! Seriously, what do you think Clarkson and Fagen would have contributed to this review? They both would have deflected and obstructed any meaningful progress in this area....just like they have done since the review was made public. Their side of the story would have likely been complete BS. If a review is to find out how First Nations players were treated, it only has to talk to First Nations people.....not their Caucasian minders.

    "Maybe the allegations are 100% true" FFS, why wouldn't they be? Why would any First Nations player lie about this stuff? Why would they make this stuff up when they have seen how Adan Goodes was treated when he brought stuff up? I have no reason whatsoever to not believe that these allegations are true. It just doesn't make sense that they aren't.

    "the way this is unfolding is simply not right" How else should it have unfolded? How do you think this would have gone down if one or more of these players just came out and had a press conference and laid it all out on the table? It's unfolded like this because Hawthorn have sat on this report for two weeks....and a responsible news service decided to do some of their own research to force the club to come clean about this report.

    I think it has unfolded quite beautifully. The spotlight is now rightly on these Caucasian minders and their behaviour in the treatment of First Nations players. They now have the right to defend themselves and the public can judge their responses. All I hope is that the league's own review is fair dinkum and thorough and that its response reflects community expectations.

    Of course, 'community expectations' is fraught with problems.....in that some of our community ARE racist or at least are excusers and enablers of racism.....but we have to assume that the league is not. Time will tell.

  8. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Fever View Post
    Understand why the complainants names have been kept confidential. Not sure why the same doesn't apply to Fagan and Clarkson until the allegations are tested through an independent investigation.
    It's like the Christian Porter affair. The nature of the allegations are that the senior coach and senior assistant coach (and the player development officer?) etc said or did this. Their role at the club makes the allegations more serious, than say if the team runner tried to exert control/influence over a young player.

    The article would infer enough that it was Clarke and Pagan etc though stating the roles of the people who did the alleged actions, and people would then say, why didn't you just name the individuals instead of talking in circles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevoswan View Post
    Horrendous?! Seriously, what do you think Clarkson and Fagen would have contributed to this review? They both would have deflected and obstructed any meaningful progress in this area....just like they have done since the review was made public. Their side of the story would have likely been complete BS. If a review is to find out how First Nations players were treated, it only has to talk to First Nations people.....not their Caucasian minders.

    "Maybe the allegations are 100% true" FFS, why wouldn't they be? Why would any First Nations player lie about this stuff? Why would they make this stuff up when they have seen how Adan Goodes was treated when he brought stuff up? I have no reason whatsoever to not believe that these allegations are true. It just doesn't make sense that they aren't.

    "the way this is unfolding is simply not right" How else should it have unfolded? How do you think this would have gone down if one or more of these players just came out and had a press conference and laid it all out on the table? It's unfolded like this because Hawthorn have sat on this report for two weeks....and a responsible news service decided to do some of their own research to force the club to come clean about this report.

    I think it has unfolded quite beautifully. The spotlight is now rightly on these Caucasian minders and their behaviour in the treatment of First Nations players. They now have the right to defend themselves and the public can judge their responses. All I hope is that the league's own review is fair dinkum and thorough and that its response reflects community expectations.

    Of course, 'community expectations' is fraught with problems.....in that some of our community ARE racist or at least are excusers and enablers of racism.....but we have to assume that the league is not. Time will tell.
    The hanging judge

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    Quote Originally Posted by caj23 View Post
    This abc investigation didn’t just happen this week, it would’ve been weeks, or maybe even months in the making

    Why give Clarkson and co just 24 hours to respond? Why didn’t they request a formal interview with them? Particularly when they were not part of the process for the initial report

    Given the extreme nature of the allegations, it strikes me as ACA gotcha journalism

    The allegations seem outrageous by any normal persons standards and completely out of character for the two main protagonists named, regardless of your personal opinion of them.

    The idea that coaches would ask to take your SIM card as a means from removing a person from their family seems preposterous and nonsensical

    Their careers and lives are in tatters from unsubstantiated accusations provided by anonymous sources and haven’t been provided any real opportunity to defend themselves. They’ve already been deemed guilty by the moral majority

    If the allegations turn out to be true, then those involved deserve punishment, but this is trial by social media and it’s pretty unsavoury
    Why do people keep coming out with that old chestnut "If the allegations are true"?

    So you actually believe that these First Nations players and their partners are just making @@@@ up? You really believe that?

    I'm sorry but what does say about you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltopia View Post
    It's like the Christian Porter affair. The nature of the allegations are that the senior coach and senior assistant coach (and the player development officer?) etc said or did this. Their role at the club makes the allegations more serious, than say if the team runner tried to exert control/influence over a young player.

    The article would infer enough that it was Clarke and Pagan etc though stating the roles of the people who did the alleged actions, and people would then say, why didn't you just name the individuals instead of talking in circles?
    Porter is an ordinary right wing individual but his career was destroyed after he denied the allegations and was never even charged. Guilty until proven innocent.

  12. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevoswan View Post
    Why do people keep coming out with that old chestnut "If the allegations are true"?

    So you actually believe that these First Nations players and their partners are just making @@@@ up? You really believe that?

    I'm sorry but what does say about you?
    So, in your book, every single allegation against somebody is true? Recipe for a nightmare scenario in any society.

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