Media stunt - let's ask for a "please explain" from AFL

[Thunder Shaker]

The coaches cannot comment on the umpiring, because they get fined. Same with the players. Same with anyone else affiliated with the AFL.

But we, the fans of the game, are outside the jurisdiction of the AFL. We cannot be fined for commenting on the umpires. But we shall not do this. Instead, I have an idea.

Let's go through a tape of the game. We identify the half dozen or so decisions that went against us, being the dubious decisions that were paid against us, or the infringements against our players that did not result in free kicks. We should scrutinise these decisions with an unbiased eye, and ask what rule was broken for each decision? For each decision, we quote from the laws of football, chapter and verse, on the rule applicable to the decision, what the appropriate penalty should be, and why we feel the decision made at the time was wrong.

Then we put those decisions on a CD, along with a letter asking for a "please explain" from the AFL. We should keep the letter as polite as possible. We, the unwashed masses of the outer are just trying to understand the rules of the game and are perplexed on some interpretations.

Here's where it gets interesting. We tip off the media. If copies of the letter and CD were sent to the appropriate media staffers, this could be an interesting story. These copies should be sent to certain media representatives, and the Swans may like a copy as well.

I would like to know why Leo Barry got a free kick paid against him for an illegal shepherd when the ball was not in play in the last quarter (cost us a goal against us); why Goodes did not get a free kick in the last quarter for a trip (cost us a shot on goal); why Barry Hall got a free paid against him in the first quarter for an infringement in a marking contest (cost us a goal). I feel the AFL should explain why these decisions were correct at the time.

Can this work?

(PS: We should also give the umpires their due. One thing they appeared to do right most of the night was not paying holding the ball against a player on the ground with an opponent holding the ball in. The umpires always seemed to bounce the ball under these circumstances, and I think that was the right thing to do.)

[bloodboy]

I am with you Thunder - all the way - something has to be done to make these umpires accountable - they are wrecking the game that I love. Does anyone who subscribes to RWO have any sort of media influence anywhere...?

[Egan]

Just remember the non calls for deliberate out of bounds...

The lack of reward for any tackles that could have been holding the ball.

Both teams were unhardly done by.

But they have been giving the crappest umpires to Perth every week, people will tell you, every week they have to watch the pathetic attempts at trying to umpire the game.

The AFL needs to send the best umpires, the worst ones consistently do woeful jobs.

Well Done to the Swans tonight

[Mike_B]

Originally posted by Egan
Just remember the non calls for deliberate out of bounds...

The lack of reward for any tackles that could have been holding the ball.


IMHO there were no non-calls of deliberate out of bounds, and maybe only one or two HTB decisions that could have been called either way. These have been contentious issues this year, but I thought these areas were umpired well.

Holding at ruck and marking contests were clearly inconsistent and how they came up with some of those decisions is beyond me. And then of course there was the Barry-Stenglein incident.

[Sanecow]

I remember a tackle by a Swan (I don't recall the details and buggered if I will sit through it again to get them) on a WCE player who was bent over and touching the ball that resulted in a free kick to the WCE player (deemed not in possession). But clearly...


15.2 FREE KICKS RELATING TO POSSESSION OF THE FOOTBALL
15.2.1 In Possession of the Football
A Player is in possession of the football if, in the opinion of the field Umpire:-
(a) the Player is holding or otherwise has control of the football;


He had control of the ball FFS!!!

[Egan]

See we look at things with bias.

I could see about 4 deliberates that were never payed

Holding the ball.

The umpires were crap, but all people make mistakes...lets not ruin a finals series by having a disection of the umpires

The AFL are fully to blame for the continuation of a policy to reward Perth with crap umpires...and its coming back to bite.

Sydney were unlucky not to win, but you guys were dead on your feet gave it all, I don't personally think the umpires paid any role in the defeat.

Well Done to the Swanies, I hope you guys win the GF...because it certainly, 100% certain it won't be the Weagles.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by Egan


The umpires were crap, but all people make mistakes...lets not ruin a finals series by having a disection of the umpires



Too late, mate.

This season has already been compromised.

[Thunder Shaker]

If we do this, the first thing we must do is start posting a list of the umpiring incidents for referral here. We will need to find these on the tape later.

I'll start:
* Fourth quarter, About halfway: Free kick paid to Stenglein, against Leo Barry, for an illegal shepherd off the ball. Result: 1 goal to West Coast directly from that free.

To support the dubiousness of this decision, we must also find some of the 20 or so occasions during the game where players ran into each other and no free was paid. For balance, it would be helpful to have a few examples involving "infringing" players from both sides. Then we can ask the question: why was this one paid and the others not paid?

* Fourth quarter, time on: Wirrpunda trips Adam Goodes about 30 metres out from the Swans' goal. No free kick was paid. Result: No shot on goal for the Swans, and the Eagles clear the ball up to the other end and score the game-winning goal.

* First quarter, about the 20-minute mark: Nick Davis kicks a goal from 5 metres out. The goal is disallowed because of an infringement against Barry Hall in a marking contest. Result: A goal denied to the Swans.

What other incidents are there? There are the incidents against our players that did not result in free kicks, and incidents that resulted in free kicks against our players.

[ugg]

I'm still puzzled over the LRT HTB decision. Admitedly, the TV footage wasn't great but I'm sure he was over the line before the tackle was completed. Absolutely bewildering.

[Charlie]

Don't go overboard and include any 50-50. Stick with the rolled-gold shockers.

Will eliminate any room for spin.

[Thunder Shaker]

Originally posted by Charlie
Don't go overboard and include any 50-50. Stick with the rolled-gold shockers.

Will eliminate any room for spin.
Good call. I would rather have only four incidents on CD if all of them were obvious errors. The LRT HTB was questionable, but I don't know if it merits inclusion.

Someone mentioned ruck infringements in another thread, and how the ruck frees were 1-7 against us. There has to be some gold to mine there.

Did Barry Hall miss out on one or two frees in marking contests?

My knowledge of the rules is not first-rate, so I cannot spot an obvious umpiring error with any degree of certainty.

If this is to be done, we need to have our footage scrutinised and selected, a master CD prepared and a polite covering letter prepared by Sunday.

Inside Football has a deadline of about 5 pm Monday and they need to have a copy of this before then. By midday would be good. To make the news on Monday evening, the television media need to have their copies by midday. The newspapers wouldn't run the story until Tuesday, but they would also need copies by about midday so the AFL can get their right of reply during normal business hours. And of course the AFL would need to receive their copies as early as possible.

[ugg]

It just happened to be the only HTB decision all night (inconsistent with the other non-HTB decisions I might add) and it occurred late in the 4th quarter. Seems a bit more than questionable IMO.

[Charlie]

The Barry/Stenglein decision.

The Ball 'in the back' when he flew.

The Goodes trip.

Perhaps the Hall one in the square, which cost the Davis goal.

I would leave it at that.

[Jeffers1984]

Originally posted by Charlie
The Barry/Stenglein decision.

The Ball 'in the back' when he flew.

The Goodes trip.

Perhaps the Hall one in the square, which cost the Davis goal.

I would leave it at that.
I would add Barry Hall getting chopped in the arms in the 1st quarter as another one. Another set of rules for Barry.

[anne]

Originally posted by Egan
See we look at things with bias.

I could see about 4 deliberates that were never payed

Holding the ball.

The umpires were crap, but all people make mistakes...lets not ruin a finals series by having a disection of the umpires

The AFL are fully to blame for the continuation of a policy to reward Perth with crap umpires...and its coming back to bite.

Sydney were unlucky not to win, but you guys were dead on your feet gave it all, I don't personally think the umpires paid any role in the defeat.

Well Done to the Swanies, I hope you guys win the GF...because it certainly, 100% certain it won't be the Weagles.

We were the better team. We were robbed. The umpires decided the outcome of the game. All the papers, including the Melbourne ones are in agreement.

Moderator's note - Egan was in no way abusive or patronising. Please treat all posters, whether they are Swans fans or not, with the respect that you expect to be treated with.

[anne]

While you are sending letters or CDs how about sending one to the AFL asking them to check deposits into McInerneney's bank account. Pretty suspicious that he was so against the Swans.

[Bron]

Agree absolutely.

I think we should do more. Letters/emails/faxes to every newspaper, TV station, sports journo we can think of.


What do the Swans have to do to get competent umpires?

In the first final, supposedly a showcase for the AFL, the result is a four point win to the Eagles. In a low scoring game, at least 18 points (26% of the winning score) or 3 goals were decided by blatant incorrect umpiring decisions. Once is a mistake, twice raises concerns, but three or more times is totally unreasonable.

As a fan, I don't seek an unfair advantage for my team. All I ask is that they are afforded impartial, competent and consistent umpiring, every week - and most particularly in finals. We want to play the opposition, not the opposition AND the umpires.


Coming home from the game after watching it at the Alex, I rang 2UE to voice my concern. Stan watzisname said that the commentators were extremely critical of the umpires. It's not good enough.

I also spoke with Tony Squires at the Alex and urged him to make loud complaint.

Bottom line, well we could have won, even playing against the umpires. We had a couple of poor shots at goal that would have got us home. So, we know we can beat both Crows and Weagles at home if we play our best, so we should be able to do it at the MCG. Let's get on and do it!

[Mike_B]

Originally posted by ugg
It just happened to be the only HTB decision all night (inconsistent with the other non-HTB decisions I might add) and it occurred late in the 4th quarter. Seems a bit more than questionable IMO.

We did get one free for HTB - I think it was Schneider who ran down one of the midfielders in the middle of the ground. But that was the only one I can recall apart from LRTs.

[Newbie]

If we ask going to ask for a "Please explain", it is better to ask for the standing down of the umpires involved. Otherwise, they could hide under the AFL shield again and again.

We must go directly after the individuals if we got any chance of making sure, it wont ever happen again.

The umpires might not be so nice to us but once their jobs are in the line, the sentiment would take a step back I think.

[Thunder Shaker]

The umpires are human. They make mistakes. For all we know, they may feel terrible about one or two mistakes that cost us the game.

This is why I want to approach this strictly from a constructive point of view. I want the AFL to explain why those decisions and non-decisions were paid the way they were. If the umpires got it wrong, the appropriate steps should also be taken to ensure that doesn't happen again. Did the umpires succumb to the lure of the home crowd? Make sure they don't ever umpire in Perth or Adelaide again. Did the umpires get it wrong? Drop them.

Whatever we do, we should treat them with respect. They are human too.

Paul Roos got it right when he chose to defend the umpires a few weeks ago. Where many problems lie with umpiring is not the umpires, but the rules of the game. For many rules, the umpires must make a decision based on opinion, not fact. Such a decision must be made within a second or two. This is why the giving of a free kick for kicking the ball out of bounds on the full is rarely controversial - it's a rule based on fact. Conversely, the paying of a free for deliberate out of bounds is much more likely to be controversial. Therefore, deliberate out of bounds must be recodified to be a more fact-based rule.

[Ugly Duckling]

Problem is they may be human, but so are we all. If any of us put in a job like this at work we would be shown the door or at the very least undergo a performance review... but week and week again they are aloud to continue the abismal displays with no concequences for their actions, I mean if you can get away with be biased why wouldnt they, they are only human.

[Diego]

I am sure like any big corporation the AFL will send you a templated letter with the typical rubbish and they will sweep it under the carpet.

They won't do anything about it. That?s what hurts. They just won't do a thing about. They can see the umpires are f up atm.

[Charlie]

That's why it shouldn't be sent via post.

We should knock on the door of AFL House and demand to show it to Demetriou ourselves.

[Newbie]

Originally posted by Thunder Shaker
The umpires are human. They make mistakes. For all we know, they may feel terrible about one or two mistakes that cost us the game.

Yes anyone could make a mistake but humans who can not umpire a game competently should not be umpiring, full stop.

Players would love to play but the incompetents are dropped. Why cant the same thing apply to the umpires.

They might feel terrible about their mistakes but it does not anyway show they are competent enough to umpire the game.

Call for the sackings of all umpires involved is just.

[OldE]

So we seem to all agree that this is a good idea. So who is going to do it?

I would happily volunteer, but I don't have the necessary technology. I am happy, however, to write letters to media people, etc. If someone can make the CD, I am more than happy to oversee its distribution.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by eirinn
So we seem to all agree that this is a good idea. So who is going to do it?

I would happily volunteer, but I don't have the necessary technology. I am happy, however, to write letters to media people, etc. If someone can make the CD, I am more than happy to oversee its distribution.

I don't know how to do it, but I'll be at AFL House if it gets off the ground. Assuming, of course, that we all agree that we are aiming for the moral high ground and that noone does anything stupid.

[timbo]

i reckon we should all go to umpire training during the week wearing our swans gear.

don't say anything to them, just watch them during the whole session. that'll put some pressure on.

[Diego]

I can put it on DVD if somebody can get me the footage.

Anyone around Prahran/Windsor/St Kilda area with a dvd recorder who happened to record it last night?

[Diego]

Originally posted by timbo
i reckon we should all go to umpire training during the week wearing our swans gear.


don't say anything to them, just watch them during the whole session. that'll put some pressure on.

ahhh haha top idea. I would just sit there and stare at maclaren. Would make him cry i thinks.

Where do they train??

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Jeffers1984
I would add Barry Hall getting chopped in the arms in the 1st quarter as another one. Another set of rules for Barry.
Second qtr (it was to the left hand edge of the screen and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the last qtr).

Craig Bolton in the back when he clearly took a mark (in the last qtr IIRC).

[ugg]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Craig Bolton in the back when he clearly took a mark (in the last qtr IIRC).

I've nearly overlooked that one. Bolton outpositioned Hansen superbly and I was applauding his effort when the umpire gave the free. Incidents like this happen numerous times per game and for the umpire just to suddenly adjudicate it differently is so frustrating.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by NMWBloods

Craig Bolton in the back when he clearly took a mark (in the last qtr IIRC).

The delayed call on this one was extraordinary!! Surely if it was a free kick the ump had time to decide that as Bolton was taking the mark... but CB had time to run back and start looking for a teammate before the call was made.

[NMWBloods]

I actually think as far as errors go, this was one of the worst in the game as it was just so obviously wrong.

[monopoly19]

Why don't we all bombard White Line Fever on Tuesday night with sms and emails and phone calls. Humphrey B Bear may not be the head honcho, but at least we might get some airtime.

[Jeffers1984]

Originally posted by monopoly19
Why don't we all bombard White Line Fever on Tuesday night with sms and emails and phone calls. Humphrey B Bear may not be the head honcho, but at least we might get some airtime.

You're on. That's my plan too.

[hammo]

Humphrey-SMith is the biggest umpires apologist going around. I'll bet he still agrees with 99% of the decisions.

[Charlie]

Apparently Geischen has come out and acknowledged that the Barry/Stenglein decision was completely wrong. Haven't head anything about the Ball, Goodes or C-Bolt decisions.

[Wardy]

Amazing - Umpires admitting they got it wrong - its a world gone mad! But sadly way too bloody late.

[Charlie]

Originally posted by Wardy
Amazing - Umpires admitting they got it wrong - its a world gone mad! But sadly way too bloody late.

Yes, it's too late. It's also completely pointless unless they do something about it.

Gieschen comes out every couple of weeks and acknowledges bad umpiring. So ****ing what? HE DOES NOTHING!!!

[Nolie]

Originally posted by Thunder Shaker
T




I would like to know why Leo Barry got a free kick paid against him for an illegal shepherd when the ball was not in play in the last quarter (cost us a goal against us); why Goodes did not get a free kick in the last quarter for a trip (cost us a shot on goal); why Barry Hall got a free paid against him in the first quarter for an infringement in a marking contest (cost us a goal). I feel the AFL should explain why these decisions were correct at the time.

s

What about the Craig Bolton mark? Taken off him - bewildering.

The umpires in fact weren' too bad but unfotunately they did make several glaring mistakes which generally all went against the Swans.

[Nolie]

Originally posted by Egan
See we look at things with bias.

I could see about 4 deliberates that were never payed

Holding the ball.

The umpires were crap, but all people make mistakes...lets not ruin a finals series by having a disection of the umpires

The AFL are fully to blame for the continuation of a policy to reward Perth with crap umpires...and its coming back to bite.

Sydney were unlucky not to win, but you guys were dead on your feet gave it all, I don't personally think the umpires paid any role in the defeat.

Well Done to the Swanies, I hope you guys win the GF...because it certainly, 100% certain it won't be the Weagles.

You either ween't at the game or don't understand the rulles or nuances of the game if you saw any unrewarded DOOB. I was at the game - didn't see any for either side - particularly NOT the one LRT was penalised for in the last quarter.
Please identify your instances.

[Rob-bloods]

Raw stats...

First 5 free kicks to Weagles

2-1 frees Weagles overall

5 frees inside 50 weagles / swans 0

Cox 2 frees for/ jolly 3 frees against

1 goal taken from Swans

3 goals Weagles from frees

At one stage we were also leading the inside 50s, final stat not sure...

Now lets see, we lead for most of the game so things should even out over two hours?

Yeah right....

[LittleSchneider]

Anything I can do to help just name it - I am so disgusted with that display last night I will do anything to help ease the pain and make it right

[Jeffers1984]

Originally posted by Charlie
Yes, it's too late. It's also completely pointless unless they do something about it.

Gieschen comes out every couple of weeks and acknowledges bad umpiring. So ****ing what? HE DOES NOTHING!!!
Exactly! Sack the Giesch! ****!

I'm sure at least one of those umps will not get a final for the rest of the year, but **** the damage is done.

[LittleSchneider]

Well now they have admitted we were robbed, now they must act on this statement to send out a message to all umpires that they are dont have a god sent right to hold their places as finals umpires and that bad performances result in sackings, otherwise whats the point of saying we were robbed and the situation wont become any better.

[Guzzitza]

Originally posted by monopoly19
Why don't we all bombard White Line Fever on Tuesday night with sms and emails and phone calls. Humphrey B Bear may not be the head honcho, but at least we might get some airtime.


that idiot is a complete waste of time though. he always finds some miraculous way to jsutify a decision - however ridiculous it may be.

erinn arent u giving a presentation on GF day.. heh.. there is ur audience ; P