Taggers

[NMWBloods]

How many do most sides have? I think they have a couple generally, or maybe three at the most.

We have Kirk, Crouch, Mathews, Ablett, and McVeigh, with occasional additional appearances by J Bolton, Dempster, Schneider, Jack, etc.

[Chookbilly]

How many do most sides have? I think they have a couple generally, or maybe three at the most.

We have Kirk, Crouch, Mathews, Ablett, and McVeigh, with occasional additional appearances by J Bolton, Dempster, Schneider, Jack, etc.

Exactly, we have too many. Free up one or two of them and we might actually get the ball into our fowardline before it become impossible through congestion!

[goswannie14]

We have too many, Ablett and McVeigh should be allowed for a few weeks to just run and kick long into the forward line. Let the other teams worry about tagging.

[Bloody Hell]

We have too many, Ablett and McVeigh should be allowed for a few weeks to just run and kick long into the forward line. Let the other teams worry about tagging.
Do you really think other teams would worry about tagging our midfield?!?

[Bloody Hell]

How many do most sides have? I think they have a couple generally, or maybe three at the most.

We have Kirk, Crouch, Mathews, Ablett, and McVeigh, with occasional additional appearances by J Bolton, Dempster, Schneider, Jack, etc.
Add Dempster to the tagging every week list. More often he does than not....so that's the whole midfield. Depressing....

[NMWBloods]

In reality I suspect that against most sides there are perhaps 1-3 opposition players you need to tag. The rest of the players can concentrate on getting the ball and just picking up their man as normal when the opposition has the ball.

I agree with GS14 that it would be good to see Ablett and McVeigh have a go at just trying to get the ball.

[hammo]

I had the same sentiments before the Lions game.




Anyone else slightly deflated by the fact that despite playing in the past two grand finals we are talking tags for a couple of 21 year olds??

Despite being dual grand finalists and supposedly being the elite of the competition, we're still the hunters, not the hunted, and have even added some extra taggers to the team for good measure.

[goswannie14]

Do you really think other teams would worry about tagging our midfield?!?I wasn't thinking about the midfield.

[stellation]

Do you really think other teams would worry about tagging our midfield?!?
I wish they would try it, I think it has the potential to offer some pretty bloody good entertainment.

[Nico]

How many do most sides have? I think they have a couple generally, or maybe three at the most.

We have Kirk, Crouch, Mathews, Ablett, and McVeigh, with occasional additional appearances by J Bolton, Dempster, Schneider, Jack, etc.

Come off it NMW, Bolton doesn't have a defensive bone in his body. Agree on the others though.

Problem with the first 6 is that none of them have any pace so running off their opponents is not an option although Kirk has learned the art to an extent. So we get nothing of a real positive speed nature from 6 players.

[Nico]

We play a one on one accountable game so we could say the whole team are taggers.

[mulfa]

I had the same sentiments before the Lions game.



Despite being dual grand finalists and supposedly being the elite of the competition, we're still the hunters, not the hunted, and have even added some extra taggers to the team for good measure.

Despite being dual grand finalists and supposedly being the elite of the competition, why are you as well as other's still holding out that attack is the best form of defence.

Who here really thinks that if we throw a few players into attacking roles or get some new blood into attacking roles that these guys are going to be a match for the the likes of judd or kerr.!!!

Have'nt we allready really proven that attack isn't the best form of defence since othersides supposedly have more talented players in there group.

[NMWBloods]

Come off it NMW, Bolton doesn't have a defensive bone in his body. Agree on the others though.

Problem with the first 6 is that none of them have any pace so running off their opponents is not an option although Kirk has learned the art to an extent. So we get nothing of a real positive speed nature from 6 players.I've seen Bolton used as a tagger occasionally (and he's crap at it).

They don't need to be fast - they just need to be smart... oops hang on...

[NMWBloods]

Despite being dual grand finalists and supposedly being the elite of the competition, why are you as well as other's still holding out that attack is the best form of defence.Because it's less boring? Because it means it is easier for us to counterattack and kick goals, thus taking advantage of our forward line?


Who here really thinks that if we throw a few players into attacking roles or get some new blood into attacking roles that these guys are going to be a match for the the likes of judd or kerr.!!!Yeah - so tag Judd and Kerr, run head to head against the others. And how many other sides have star-studded midfields?


Have'nt we allready really proven that attack isn't the best form of defence since othersides supposedly have more talented players in there group.And we have one of the best forward lines in the comp and we are one of the lowest scoring teams.

[Nico]

I've seen Bolton used as a tagger occasionally (and he's crap at it).

They don't need to be fast - they just need to be smart... oops hang on...

If you didn't know better , one would have thought Bolton was tagging Rawlings last week because he was always 20 metres behind him and struggling to keep up.

[swansrule100]

I've seen Bolton used as a tagger occasionally (and he's crap at it).

They don't need to be fast - they just need to be smart... oops hang on...


bolton doesnt seem to be doing anything this year let alone tagging.
I agree with you on the tagging issue. Id like to see us try to attack, we can always revert back and try to shut games down. obviously you need a player running with say judd or dal santo type players. But i think with some younger players in like jack, schmidt, moore etc its a good chance to free the shackles. This would help free up the forward line and free up hall a bit or exploit teams who drop players back onto hall.

[ROK Lobster]

But, if we free up too much in the middle it exposes our backline. As I said elsewhere once, I think we need our middle to shut down sides to allow our backs to attack. To be honest our middle does not have the skill to set up attacks. Kennelly, Malceski and Leo are the best kicks in the team (except possibly for Hall and Davis). Ablett is a long kick but not always accurate, Fosdike, McVeigh and Bolton spray them everywhere, Kirk could not kick over a jam tin. An open midfiled is clanger city for the Swans and would expose our backs to the ball coming in way too quick. Much as I would like to see it, it aint going to happen with this set up. If it did it would be a disaster, and we would get smashed way more than qtr 1 last week.

[NMWBloods]

You're right - skills gaps makes us play boring footy!

[liz]

But, if we free up too much in the middle it exposes our backline. As I said elsewhere once, I think we need our middle to shut down sides to allow our backs to attack. To be honest our middle does not have the skill to set up attacks. Kennelly, Malceski and Leo are the best kicks in the team (except possibly for Hall and Davis). Ablett is a long kick but not always accurate, Fosdike, McVeigh and Bolton spray them everywhere, Kirk could not kick over a jam tin. An open midfiled is clanger city for the Swans and would expose our backs to the ball coming in way too quick. Much as I would like to see it, it aint going to happen with this set up. If it did it would be a disaster, and we would get smashed way more than qtr 1 last week.

I think you have it in a nutshell, though you've left out Bolton (no 2) in your kicking assessment. He's as good as Barry (I'd rate him higher) and probably at least as good as Kennelly too. (No-one comes close to Malceski.)

We saw last week (and in round 1 last year against the Bombers) that when the midfield isn't able to contain its opponents defensively, the defence gets smashed. So it is as much the absence of a Glass or Rutten or Scarlett that dictates the midfield's style as it is the nature of the players in that midfield group.

I suspect that even with the personnel we have, the midfield could become far more attack orientated if that is what it was instructed to do. Monty is one who provides a decent amount of attacking flair and, of course, Goodes was the prime driver at centre clearances last year. (When can we get the "old Goodes" back?:( )

But others too have the potential. Ablett, in particular, is one with the attributes to become a pretty valuable midfielder if he is let off the leash a little. I think he could be a significantly more valuable kick if he were given a more outside role. A lot of his kicks are taken from the middle of packs where he has no time and frequently gets smothered anyway. I understand why he was initially used as a tagger - it is common with younger players at all clubs because running with a top quality opponent teaches them where to run and gives them some idea of how hard the best midfielders work. But those lessons become useless if they're not allowed to be put into use.

His main deficiency is probably the inability to spot up and give off the quick handball. That's why he gets caught HTB so often - if he can't get it on his boot he has nowhere else to go. Who knows whether this skill is learnable at this stage in his career.

Ironically, Fosdike probably has quicker hands and is a far worse kick than Ablett, yet he is the one usually running in space while Ablett toils through traffic. Both are reportedly exceptional endurance athletes and moderately quick without being express, so it would be interesting to see what happened if their roles were switched around.

[originalswan]

But, if we free up too much in the middle it exposes our backline. As I said elsewhere once, I think we need our middle to shut down sides to allow our backs to attack. To be honest our middle does not have the skill to set up attacks. Kennelly, Malceski and Leo are the best kicks in the team (except possibly for Hall and Davis). Ablett is a long kick but not always accurate, Fosdike, McVeigh and Bolton spray them everywhere, Kirk could not kick over a jam tin. An open midfiled is clanger city for the Swans and would expose our backs to the ball coming in way too quick. Much as I would like to see it, it aint going to happen with this set up. If it did it would be a disaster, and we would get smashed way more than qtr 1 last week.

Generally true, except in the last quarter against the Kangas the midfield finally played the ball and we saw what happenend. The only exception was that perhaps the Kangas were tiring in the last quarter.

[Legs Akimbo]

But, if we free up too much in the middle it exposes our backline. As I said elsewhere once, I think we need our middle to shut down sides to allow our backs to attack. To be honest our middle does not have the skill to set up attacks. Kennelly, Malceski and Leo are the best kicks in the team (except possibly for Hall and Davis). Ablett is a long kick but not always accurate, Fosdike, McVeigh and Bolton spray them everywhere, Kirk could not kick over a jam tin. An open midfiled is clanger city for the Swans and would expose our backs to the ball coming in way too quick. Much as I would like to see it, it aint going to happen with this set up. If it did it would be a disaster, and we would get smashed way more than qtr 1 last week.

Exactly. Didn't Terry Wallace say Richmond was going to play open attacking footy some time back? See where it got them. Our game plan revolves around accountability and especially in the middle where we create all those ball ups.

This whole argument can be reduced to...

'Would you prefer see the Swans kick more goals and play exciting footy or be a serious premiership contender and play boring footy week after week?'

Take your pick, but don't believe for a minute that both are possible for our team, today.

[giant]

Take your pick, but don't believe for a minute that both are possible for our team, today.

Or indeed for any team today - see, eg, Dogs, Saints, Freo. A team without a defensive element to their gameplan will make for some exhilirating H&A footy - & some heartbreaking finals footy.

[ugg]

Another tagger coming back! I can hear the cries of joy already.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21702760-5001023,00.html

[hammo]

Another tagger coming back! I can hear the cries of joy already.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21702760-5001023,00.html
Roos obviously hasn't read ORB's reserves report from last week.


On the downside, poor Bevo is in the horrors. He seems to think he can break tackles like Willy Mason, in fact he was caught and smashed several times ? and pinged HTB.

Then again that's theBevo we've come to know well.

[giant]

Bevo, Buchy in = Moore & ? out - surely not Jack?

[BeeEmmAre]

Come off it NMW, Bolton doesn't have a defensive bone in his body. Agree on the others though.

Problem with the first 6 is that none of them have any pace so running off their opponents is not an option although Kirk has learned the art to an extent. So we get nothing of a real positive speed nature from 6 players.

You do remember that Crouch won the grand final sprint three years ago?
They won't catch him if he's given a chance to run.

[NMWBloods]

You do remember that Crouch won the grand final sprint three years ago?
They won't catch him if he's given a chance to run.
That's three years ago - I think he's lost a lot of speed.

[NMWBloods]

Or indeed for any team today - see, eg, Dogs, Saints, Freo. A team without a defensive element to their gameplan will make for some exhilirating H&A footy - & some heartbreaking finals footy.
Currently this season no - for the Saints that has a lot to do with injuries - but in recent seasons teams have managed to combined defensive work with an attacking game. No one is as lockdown as the Swans, so most teams manage some sort of balance.

[giant]

Currently this season no - for the Saints that has a lot to do with injuries - but in recent seasons teams have managed to combined defensive work with an attacking game. No one is as lockdown as the Swans, so most teams manage some sort of balance.

If you've got both elements then great (certainly could be argued that we have a great attacking HB line as well as a potent forward line). But defence is the sine qua non of recent premiership success.

The 3 teams I've mentioned have been the ones most associated with all out attack & none of them have seriously threatened for flag over recent times. Perhaps the closest would be Port but who knows how many more flags they may have won with a tighter defensive game plan.

[swansrule100]

But, if we free up too much in the middle it exposes our backline. As I said elsewhere once, I think we need our middle to shut down sides to allow our backs to attack. To be honest our middle does not have the skill to set up attacks. Kennelly, Malceski and Leo are the best kicks in the team (except possibly for Hall and Davis). Ablett is a long kick but not always accurate, Fosdike, McVeigh and Bolton spray them everywhere, Kirk could not kick over a jam tin. An open midfiled is clanger city for the Swans and would expose our backs to the ball coming in way too quick. Much as I would like to see it, it aint going to happen with this set up. If it did it would be a disaster, and we would get smashed way more than qtr 1 last week.

true i guess, its still frustrating. we could still attack a lot quicker even if a lot of bash and crash. Id just like to see a win against a decent side this year

[NMWBloods]

If you've got both elements then great (certainly could be argued that we have a great attacking HB line as well as a potent forward line). But defence is the sine qua non of recent premiership success.

The 3 teams I've mentioned have been the ones most associated with all out attack & none of them have seriously threatened for flag over recent times. Perhaps the closest would be Port but who knows how many more flags they may have won with a tighter defensive game plan.
I wasn't thinking about all-out attack. We are now all-out defence, and I would like to see more balance between attack and defence.

[giant]

I wasn't thinking about all-out attack. We are now all-out defence, and I would like to see more balance between attack and defence.

Quite, but that's not what my initial comment was about.

On the "all-out" defence issue, I think when we're playing well and with confidence, we do the tough defensive things AND move the ball quickly & directly, rebound well, take plenty of marks inside 50, etc etc. When we play without confidence, we tend to just fall back on the defensive side of our game - and move the ball slowly and sideways, drop marks, kick to contested situations etc. And of course start slowly!

[NMWBloods]

Quite, but that's not what my initial comment was about.

On the "all-out" defence issue, I think when we're playing well and with confidence, we do the tough defensive things AND move the ball quickly & directly, rebound well, take plenty of marks inside 50, etc etc. When we play without confidence, we tend to just fall back on the defensive side of our game - and move the ball slowly and sideways, drop marks, kick to contested situations etc. And of course start slowly!
Yes, that's very true, but I think we psyche ourselves into that mindset to a certain extent.

[giant]

Yes, that's very true, but I think we psyche ourselves into that mindset to a certain extent.

Yep, and I guess your original point was "if the selection panel chooses an abundance of defensive style players, it's hardly surprising we end up with that defensive mindset." It's obviously not a precedent that I'd want to repeat too much, but I tend to agree. ;)