How lucky/smart are we?

[reigning premier]

I personally can't think of a team that has blooded as many young players in such a short period with such success.

Thinking about it;

Moore
Jack
Barlow
Bird

Even the guys that we bagged last year are now coming good;

McVeigh
Bevan

In the wings;

Schmidt
Laidlaw
White Vezppremi

That's some serous talent being injected in one year. Throw in Mattner and we're looking very new and sharp...

I'm one happy Swans supporter ATM.... :D

[Bleed Red Blood]

You mustn't be very good at thinking.

Four players? Bird being the only first year player. A couple of players getting kudos for not being shocking that have been around five years. And some names thrown in that may or may not make it. I'd pity the clubs that have been 'rebuilding' if you can't think they're better in this regard than us.

Thinking about it;

Roughead
Franklin
Lewis
Rioli
Ellis
Birchall

Even the guys that we bagged last year are now coming good;

Gilham
Osborne
Boyle

In the wings;

Muston
Bailey
Thorp
Dowler
McGlynn

That's some serous talent being injected in one year. Throw in Dew and they're looking very new and sharp...

[Xie Shan]

That's some serous talent being injected in one year.

One year? Please! I think you're forgetting how awful they were prior to 2007 while that 'serious talent' was developing. Yes, they're looking pretty sharp now, thanks largely to the draft picks they collected during their time at the bottom. It'll probably pay off for them, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if by season's end we finished ahead of them. The fact that the OP isn't very good at thinking is irrelevant. ;)

[hammo]

RP's point is that the Swans have been winning while the Hawks were very bad for a number of years as they collected draft picks and injected youth. The same applies to Carlton, Bulldogs when they were down etc.

If one thing is for certain, the so-called experts in Melbourne who thought we had no juniors and a list that was too old have been put in their place.

Should Sydney make a grand final in the next couple of years with this squad then it will give food for thought to other teams as to how they rebuild.

[Xie Shan]

One thing the 'draft your way to success' clubs like Hawthorn have over us is their recruiting of younger KPPs - for some reason Roos doesn't seem to like using the draft to recruit young talls. It *might* pay off if the likes of Murphy and Orreal come up, but so far, you'd have to say our juniors are alright. *If* we make a GF in the next 2 years then yes, it will be a credit to Roos and the recruiting staff.

[hammo]

One thing the 'draft your way to success' clubs like Hawthorn have over us is their recruiting of younger KPPs - for some reason Roos doesn't seem to like using the draft to recruit young talls. It *might* pay off if the likes of Murphy and Orreal come up, but so far, you'd have to say our juniors are alright. *If* we make a GF in the next 2 years then yes, it will be a credit to Roos and the recruiting staff.

I agree with what you say. I think the main reason is that there is a higher success rate in drafting midfielders than talls, particularly as you get later in the draft. I'm sure if we had a top 3 pick we might go for a tall. But I am sure there is a well developed scientific theory inside the club why we only go after talls with our late picks, via the rookie draft or through a trade.

[liz]

To open my other eye for a moment, Collingwood probably led the way last year, reaching a PF (and taking Geelong all the way) with a team based around 2nd year players like Pendlebury, Cloke and Thomas, but with some total newbies thrown in as well, like Goldsack.

[CJK]

zomg swasn are teh d00med

no kidz lolz

And so on and so forth

[reigning premier]

RP's point is that the Swans have been winning while the Hawks were very bad for a number of years as they collected draft picks and injected youth. The same applies to Carlton, Bulldogs when they were down etc.

If one thing is for certain, the so-called experts in Melbourne who thought we had no juniors and a list that was too old have been put in their place.

Should Sydney make a grand final in the next couple of years with this squad then it will give food for thought to other teams as to how they rebuild.

That and the fact that excepting maybe Malceski, we haven't really introduced any new blood to the team since 05/06. We've held back on a lot of these guys when everyone here was screaming for us to play them. So the question remains;

Has Roos & the selection committee, in a stroke of genius, delibrately decided to hold back the these young "potentials" with a view to letting them mature and progress naturally, instead of just dumping them in the mix and burning them out???

Carlton and Hawthorn have all been forced to throw their younger players on the field, we haven't. Now was that delibrate? Or just luck?

Either way, it seems to be working.

[reigning premier]

You mustn't be very good at thinking.

Four players? Bird being the only first year player. A couple of players getting kudos for not being shocking that have been around five years. And some names thrown in that may or may not make it. I'd pity the clubs that have been 'rebuilding' if you can't think they're better in this regard than us.

Thinking about it;

Roughead
Franklin
Lewis
Rioli
Ellis
Birchall

Even the guys that we bagged last year are now coming good;

Gilham
Osborne
Boyle

In the wings;

Muston
Bailey
Thorp
Dowler
McGlynn

That's some serous talent being injected in one year. Throw in Dew and they're looking very new and sharp...


And you mustn't be very good at comparisons!

[NMWBloods]

That and the fact that excepting maybe Malceski, we haven't really introduced any new blood to the team since 05/06. We've held back on a lot of these guys when everyone here was screaming for us to play them. So the question remains;

Has Roos & the selection committee, in a stroke of genius, delibrately decided to hold back the these young "potentials" with a view to letting them mature and progress naturally, instead of just dumping them in the mix and burning them out???

Carlton and Hawthorn have all been forced to throw their younger players on the field, we haven't. Now was that delibrate? Or just luck?

Either way, it seems to be working.This is the strategy of the past when young players would be in reserves for a few years before joining the senior team. It was a key aspect of Hawthorn's success in the 1980s. How much in this case has been pre-planned and how much it has been a case of luck because of lack of injuries and 'loyalty' to premiership players is hard to say.

[liz]

This is the strategy of the past when young players would be in reserves for a few years before joining the senior team. It was a key aspect of Hawthorn's success in the 1980s. How much in this case has been pre-planned and how much it has been a case of luck because of lack of injuries and 'loyalty' to premiership players is hard to say.

Bit of that, but we also need to look at where the new injections have come from. Jack and Barlow are both off the rookie list and have made huge strides in the two and a bit years they've been on the list. Both got small chances last year, but the reason they're making an impact now is because they're ready to make an impact now.

Indeed, a lot of the younger players who either just broken into the team or look to be on the brink have come from the lower reaches of the draft, including the rookie draft, and hence it is not unreasonable to expect them to take a bit longer. The first and second round picks we have earned over recent years are running around in the guise of Darren Jolly, Teddy Richards and Spida Everitt.

Moore's not as clear cut since he was probably a lot further developed when he arrived at the club. But he's had a series of small injuries that have set him back each time he looked like he might be about to break through.

[Nico]

And they tell me there is a bloke in the 2's by the name of Currie who CAN play.

[Donners]

The youth of the Swans isn't even remarkable compared to the league standard, let alone any other examples in recent memory. At best, there are a handful of fairly capable players there.

[ScottH]

And they tell me there is a bloke in the 2's by the name of Currie who CAN play.

Injured himself last week, unfortunately.

[DeadlyAkkuret]

The youth of the Swans isn't even remarkable compared to the league standard, let alone any other examples in recent memory. At best, there are a handful of fairly capable players there.

What's the league standard. Enlighten us?

[DeadlyAkkuret]

The youth of the Swans isn't even remarkable compared to the league standard, let alone any other examples in recent memory. At best, there are a handful of fairly capable players there.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so negative after the youngsters have only played a handful of games.

Not every player can develop as fast as Judd did and win a Brownlow when they're 20, but the latest additions to our team have shown plenty of promise early and that's all we can hope for.

They may never end up being more than just "capable" players, but they have the potential to be stars.

[NMWBloods]

Maybe he's saying that after just a handful of games there is no need to be overly confident yet either. They look capable and we'll see over time whether they develop into more or less or the same as that.

[Donners]

Maybe he's saying that after just a handful of games there is no need to be overly confident yet either. They look capable and we'll see over time whether they develop into more or less or the same as that.


Exactly. I have been reasonably impressed with how they've gone, but none of the new faces have set the world on fire. There's cause for some optimism, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The likes of Robert Teal, Andrew McGovern, Shane Fell, Ricky Mott, Justin Crawford and Ben Doolan had promising starts to their careers too.

[Donners]

What's the league standard. Enlighten us?

Well, the four players first named in the thread are Moore, Jack, Bird and Barlow, aged 19-22 with several years on the list in a couple of cases. Add in Grundy, McVeigh and Schmidt as players also in that range for the sake of comparison.

Even a struggling side like West Coast has the likes of Rosa, McKinley, Priddis, Waters, Kennedy, Hurn, LeCras and Brown in that range, who have achieved more than all those players, perhaps bar McVeigh, despite being in a successful side where selection would be tough.

Look at Essendon, with Houli, Gumbleton, Neagle, Ryder, Jetta and Daniher. Try Adelaide, with Knights, Dangerfield, Tippett and Van Berlo. Brisbane? Lewenberger, Stiller, Sherman, Rsichitelli. Bulldogs? Cooney, Everitt, Hill, Williams, Harbrow. Roos? Thomas, Swallow, Smith, Lower, Hansen. Geelong? Prismall, Selwood, Donohue, Hawkins, Blake...

Again, there is some promise among Sydney's youth, and some may well become top players. I hope they do. To suggest that our youth are in any way exceptional at this point is not justified.

[reigning premier]

Missing the point here a little.... Yes we've got some talented young players, but that's not the main thrust here.

The younger players we have are probably not the best in the league. But then again, we haven't been languishing in 15th & 16th places for the last few years in order to pick us ourselves up some quality draft picks. No doubt, Carlton & Hawthorn have some cracking young talent.

Point is, we've managed our guys well. We've selected wisely from the lower order picks and we have brought them in slowly. Now we have 4, 5, 6 or more young league level players coming in one season. That's pushing up towards 25-30% of our team. And on top of that, we're winning.

Now again, good luck or good management?

[liz]

Now again, good luck or good management?


Bit of both. What it does do is illustrate the value of the rookie list in giving a cheaper option to clubs to trial players who otherwise wouldn't get a go. The number of very very good AFL players who have come through the rookie system - not just at the Swans, at every club - is staggering given how many other kids were deemed to be better prospects than them at age 18.

Given there is going to be a squeeze on talent in 4 or 5 years time as the AFL tries to introduce two new clubs, I think there's a case to be made for expanding the rookie system in the next year or so, both by increasing the number of rookies a club can take and relaxing the rules on how long a club can keep them. If some clubs need additional financial help to enable them to do this, so be it.

Even if the clubs between them manage to produce just an extra dozen or so competent 22 year old players by 2011/2012, it is going to go someway towards easing the squeeze on talent. It's too much to expect an additional 88 AFL quality players to be found all at once, even allowing for the proposed stockpiling of Queensland talent over the next couple of seasons.

[reigning premier]

Bit of both. Snip.


I think it might run a bit deeper.

Obviously it's only an assumption but the way we're introducing new players this year, Bird on debut, Jack & Barlow permanent fixtures, Nick Smith last week, Jesse White this week, would lead me to think that there has been a fairly deliberate plan put in place by Roos. i.e. Post 2005, recruit on a long term strategy, use the cattle we have up until the new guys we do recruit have the matured and hardened bodies and then have another tilt at a flag whilst we retain a few of our older and wiser heads.

Or am I just reading to much into it?

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Even a struggling side like West Coast has the likes of Rosa, McKinley, Priddis, Waters, Kennedy, Hurn, LeCras and Brown in that range, who have achieved more than all those players, perhaps bar McVeigh, despite being in a successful side where selection would be tough.

Look at Essendon, with Houli, Gumbleton, Neagle, Ryder, Jetta and Daniher. Try Adelaide, with Knights, Dangerfield, Tippett and Van Berlo. Brisbane? Lewenberger, Stiller, Sherman, Rsichitelli. Bulldogs? Cooney, Everitt, Hill, Williams, Harbrow. Roos? Thomas, Swallow, Smith, Lower, Hansen. Geelong? Prismall, Selwood, Donohue, Hawkins, Blake...



No offence, but a lot of those players are no better than Barlow, Jack or Moore. What's Kennedy done? What makes Everitt any better? Has Daniher even played yet?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that list.

[Donners]

Well, the question I quoted at the top of that post should make the point I'm trying to make rather obvious. Our youth are not remarkable compared to the league standard - not terrible, not special, just average.

[NMWBloods]

No offence, but a lot of those players are no better than Barlow, Jack or Moore. What's Kennedy done? What makes Everitt any better? Has Daniher even played yet?

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that list.
Why so defensive? Donners didn't say that those youngsters are better than ours. He was responding to the initial comment that "I personally can't think of a team that has blooded as many young players in such a short period with such success." and provided a list to say that a number of teams have brought in a number of young players with promise.

[hammo]

I think it might run a bit deeper.

Obviously it's only an assumption but the way we're introducing new players this year, Bird on debut, Jack & Barlow permanent fixtures, Nick Smith last week, Jesse White this week, would lead me to think that there has been a fairly deliberate plan put in place by Roos. i.e. Post 2005, recruit on a long term strategy, use the cattle we have up until the new guys we do recruit have the matured and hardened bodies and then have another tilt at a flag whilst we retain a few of our older and wiser heads.

Or am I just reading to much into it?
I doubt we would have blooded so many new players had Hall and Kennelly not missed matches. Fosdike and Spida would be automatic selections also and perhaps even Crouch.

[liz]

Why so defensive? Donners didn't say that those youngsters are better than ours.

He said that those listed players had achieved more than our equivalents. Some have, some haven't. Around 4 of the listed players are yet to even debut.

Some clubs have blooded more youngsters because all their players over the age of 22 are pretty ordinary. Some have blooded more youngsters because they've have perenniel access to ready made players via multiple first round draft picks. Some have just blooded more young players.

Regardless, it doesn't stop us celebrating the emergence of what looks to be some solid new blood into our team, irrespective of what other teams are doing. Which I think was the spirit of even the opening post.

Let's hope a couple of them go on from their promising starts and turn into our next ROK, B2 or even Goodsey.

[NMWBloods]

He said that those listed players had achieved more than our equivalents. Ah - yes, now I re-read I had misread that.

[Donners]

He said that those listed players had achieved more than our equivalents. Some have, some haven't. Around 4 of the listed players are yet to even debut.

Actually, I said that only in relation to the West Coast players I listed. All those have played, and I think all have made quite an impression. Rosa, Waters, Priddis and Hurn got upwards of 20 touches a game in a star midfield last season, Le Cras is scoring almost two goals a game, McKinley has been remarkable in a struggling side this season and Kennedy is widely touted as a great prospect. That's far greater success than those players listed for Sydney have managed, in my opinion.

The other players listed were just examples of the talent coming through at other clubs, which I still think is at least as impressive as what we have at this point. Hell, I didn't even cover several of the weaker teams who have been taking a series of high draft picks.

Barlow showed terrific signs last season, yet wasn't even named in the side at the start of the season. The others have played moderate supporting roles at best - again, not terrible, but far from remarkable.

[liz]

Actually, I said that only in relation to the West Coast players I listed. All those have played, and I think all have made quite an impression. Rosa, Waters, Priddis and Hurn got upwards of 20 touches a game in a star midfield last season, Le Cras is scoring almost two goals a game, McKinley has been remarkable in a struggling side this season and Kennedy is widely touted as a great prospect. That's far greater success than those players listed for Sydney have managed, in my opinion.

.

Even if your observation is limited just to WC (which was ambiguous), I think your observation is debatable. Most of those players aren't comparable in experience levels to the youngsters the OP of this thread was celebrating. And the major reason they have had far more opportunities than their closest equivalents on our list - the likes of Moore and Schmidt - is that West Coast's depth in 25-28 year olds was nothing like as good as Sydney's. They had no choice but to play those players early.

In terms of the players better comparable to Jack, Barlow and Bird in terms of experience:

McKinley's been very good but it's a bit rich to say he's achieved far greater success than Jack. Their efforts have been pretty comparable playing very different roles for their teams.

Kennedy's achieved absolutely nothing yet - he's not even played an AFL game yet.

Brown played a few good games last year but currently isn't in a position to make any contribution. Nor is Le Cras.

And yes, you could have thrown Masten, Selwood or Ebert in there. All look like players with promise. But none has achieved anything more than our equivalents.

[sharp9]

Rhys Palmer and Cyril Rioli have done much more than any of our fiurst or second years.

Having said that I could of LIKE the fact that our good young players just play and don't cause an enormous stir...Barlow and Moore, especially. they just seem like they're part of the team (same with Schmidt last year).

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Why so defensive?

Not defensive at all, I'm simply challenging Donners' very debatable points.

The part about Kennedy being "widely touted as a great prospect" is baffling. He hasn't played a senior game, so at the moment he's nothing. Also, how many games have Priddis and Hurn played? More than Barlow, Moore and Jack I'm guessing.

Condisering where our youngsters are at, they're comfortably on par with most newbies in the league. Let's not forget that those West Coast midfielders were playing with the likes of Judd, Cousins and Kerr from the start, so they were hardly getting the opposition's best players.

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Rhys Palmer and Cyril Rioli have done much more than any of our fiurst or second years.



Which picks were they taken with? Higher than most of our youngsters I'd imagine. Fremantle would be pretty pissed if their top 8 pick wasn't showing any promise.

[ugg]

Josh Kennedy of the Eagles has played 25 games for Carlton. (Although they were mostly insipid performances)
Josh Kennedy of the Hawks hasn't played a senior game yet.

[liz]

Josh Kennedy of the Eagles has played 25 games for Carlton. (Although they were mostly insipid performances)
Josh Kennedy of the Hawks hasn't played a senior game yet.

Has he really? My error. I think he's been named to play this weekend for West Coast and read somewhere he'd be making his debut. I guess they meant West Coast debut.

Still hasn't achieved a huge deal though...

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Josh Kennedy of the Eagles has played 25 games for Carlton. (Although they were mostly insipid performances)
Josh Kennedy of the Hawks hasn't played a senior game yet.

So one of them is yet to play and the other was so good that even Carlton gave him away? Quick, let's trade Barlow so we can snap one of these gems up.

[Donners]

Kennedy's achieved absolutely nothing yet - he's not even played an AFL game yet.


Josh Kennedy at West Coast, the #4 draft pick, has played 22 games by my count. He hasn't made a big impression yet, but key position players take time to develop.

Once again, the point is that our youth stocks are at best on a par with other sides. I think some sides are in a better position in this regard, since their young players have had a chance to gain experience and prove themselves, while others have had plenty of high picks. There's not much we can do about the latter, and the former is a process that is really only just starting. We can't really judge this batch yet.