153 games on, was / is Rocket a better coach?

[Rod_]

I was in favour of Choose Roos! And I doubt that Rocket would have given us a grandfinal victory.... (never to be proven)

But who is the better coach?

Is the cupboard bare? (no more game plays up his sleeve)

Have we rebuilt whilst not being a top 4 team? We have again reached the finals again...? (and played really bad for 6-8 weeks)

What will next year deliver? Who will stay or go?

Roos can have another 5 years IMO (any coach that can break a 72 year hoo do has my vote) I might become a little desperate in 4/5 years...

Look forward to constructive comments :rolleyes:

Rod_

(Roos for my vote)

[reigning premier]

Roos has repeatedley said he's not a life time coach... he has othe rthings to do... And fair enough.

But is he the better coach??? I'd be inclined to say yes. For the same reason Mathews is a better coach than Walls. He got a lot more out of the cattle he had than their predesscor did. Perhaps though, this is a direct result of change (In the same way Rocket got the Swans to a minor premiership and a GF in his first year).

But the moral of the story is, Both Rocket and Roos are pretty much done in their time at the Swans with not too much differnece in their coaching record.

[Robbo]

Roos delivered us a premiership. Case closed.

[BloodsInMyVeins]

Ron Barassi was Better than both sorry to say ,in my opinion.

I say if Barassi was given the 1 more year deal he wanted, Swannies would've won the 1996 Gran Final.

As far as im concerned Eade only got to the 96 Gran Final on the Back of Barassi hard work.

After all Barassi brought Swannies back from the Wooden Spoon Days.

I say bring back Barassi

[Matt79]

Roos delivered us a premiership. Case closed.

That sums it up for me too. Roos.

[ScottH]

BinmV is on the money.

Barassi dragged us from the cellar dwellers into a team competent of winning a game or 2.

Eade built on that instilled confidence, formed his own plan(flooding) around the group he had, and got us to the GF in his first year. Then as other teams worked out how to beat the flood, I think he struggled with that list of average footballers.

Roos then built on that again, and instilled more confidence, and his own personal style, (Tempo handsoff football). The game plan worked well and we have won many games under Roos as we all know, and whilst our skill level was up, and the team gelled we could beat most. The games has evolved again, and it is now faster than ever, and our team is slow, compared to many others. Our skill level seems to have dropped off recently as well. Plan A, is no longer working, and Plan B is, well, Plan B was Saturday Night. :(

I voted Roos.
2 GF's and a flag v 1 GF.

[NMWBloods]

Interestingly though, without that much-maligned player Roos delivers not much more than Eade did. Ironic really.

[Margie]

BinmV is on the money.

Barassi dragged us from the cellar dwellers into a team competent of winning a game or 2.

Eade built on that instilled confidence, formed his own plan(flooding) around the group he had, and got us to the GF in his first year. Then as other teams worked out how to beat the flood, I think he struggled with that list of average footballers.

Roos then built on that again, and instilled more confidence, and his own personal style, (Tempo handsoff football). The game plan worked well and we have won many games under Roos as we all know, and whilst our skill level was up, and the team gelled we could beat most. The games has evolved again, and it is now faster than ever, and our team is slow, compared to many others. Our skill level seems to have dropped off recently as well. Plan A, is no longer working, and Plan B is, well, Plan B was Saturday Night. :(

I voted Roos.
2 GF's and a flag v 1 GF.

Great summation.

Re Plan B, they did try it on Sat. night. The team has been unsettled and it's going to take a while for the new to gel with the old. Speed and skills need vast improvement.

Roos for me.

[ScottH]

Interestingly though, without that much-maligned player Roos delivers not much more than Eade did. Ironic really.

Well that player did deliver the end results, but it was a huge effort by some others to get the ball to him in the first place, so there are a few unsung heroes who can be attributed to that result as well.

[ernie koala]

Roos results speak for themselves. He has been a wonderful coach.....but....
He laid out his philosophy re : coaches are limited by time to their effectiveness at one club. By his own rules, it's time to move on. The thing I don't like is this so called succession plan. If Roos goes we should start afresh with new ideas from outside the existing structure...ie: no Horse doing same old same old.

[NMWBloods]

Well that player did deliver the end results, but it was a huge effort by some others to get the ball to him in the first place, so there are a few unsung heroes who can be attributed to that result as well.Given the quality of our list I think it has been a superb effort by the players and coach in the past six years to have made finals and been one of the top teams through that period. However, it is undoubtedly the case that one of the key differences between Roos and Eade is the flag, as noted in this thread a few times, hence my comment.

[Lucky Knickers]

Roos

[ScottH]

Given the quality of our list I think it has been a superb effort by the players and coach in the past six years to have made finals and been one of the top teams through that period. However, it is undoubtedly the case that one of the key differences between Roos and Eade is the flag, as noted in this thread a few times, hence my comment.

Eade peaked too early, and struggled after the GF.
Roos peaked slowly, got the flag, and a 2nd GF, and then struggled.

Completely different styles of coaching, so it makes it hard to compare, but achieving the highest accolade in football has to count for something.
It is one thing to get to a GF. It is another thing to win one.

[BSA5]

Roos. He was a genius with the way he turned a slow, dour playing list into a Premiership winning one. The football equivalent of alchemy, really. Things aren't looking too good at the moment, but hell, even Sheedy, Matthews, Malthouse etc spent time at the bottom. A coach can't just simply tell a team to change the way they are playing on the spot, especially when they've been playing it for 5 years with tremendous success. It takes time to engineer a game plan. Maybe he'll do that. Maybe he'll give the job to Horse, or somebody else. Who knows? But what Roos has done with the Swans is highly commendable indeed.

[Go Swannies]

Roos built the team and self-belief and a game plan that led to a Premiership. With the strength of other teams at the time (Eagles, Crows) that was remarkable. And he didn't do just with the first flush of a new coach's first seasons - he built from there.

I'm not sure Eade has achieved much at all. At present the Doggies seem to be just about as much finals fodder as the Swans (or North last year) - it rather resembles his trajectory at the Swans - got great results (a GF appearance for us at least) then fell away.

[Plugger46]

Roos but I'm not a huge fan of either.

[hammo]

Roos by the simple fact he won a premiership. I'd like him to try to build the next premiership team though considering he inherited the last group.

[Mr Magoo]

Roos wins (only by four points :o) for giving us a premiership and getting us to another grand final the following year but it is remarkable how similar things have started to become since then.

After the 96 grand final we did the same thing as we are now doing by hanging in the bottom of the eight and not really being a factor in the finals although turning up and showing promise in part during the season.

Even then everyone was saying we were doomed but during that time the next generation started to bloom . In part due to a new coach and in part due to growth of that next group.

[ernie koala]

Maybe he'll give the job to Horse, or somebody else. Who knows? But what Roos has done with the Swans is highly commendable indeed.

This, to me, is a worry. To have an outgoing coach dictate who will replace him, in this case his deputy, makes no sense. If we want to continue down the same line then why replace Roos at all? Any new coach should not be a Roos deputy, it should be some one coming in fresh, hopefully with new ideas. Given Horses' major role over the last few years, it would be same old same old to the players ears...ie stale and on the nose.

[Plugger46]

This, to me, is a worry. To have an outgoing coach dictate who will replace him, in this case his deputy, makes no sense. If we want to continue down the same line then why replace Roos at all? Any new coach should not be a Roos deputy, it should be some one coming in fresh, hopefully with new ideas. Given Horses' major role over the last few years, it would be same old same old to the players ears...ie stale and on the nose.

I fear the same thing. Although, Roos was one of Eade's assistants before he got the job. Hard to know when we're not at the club, as to how big a role the assistants play.

[connolly]

Well that player did deliver the end results, but it was a huge effort by some others to get the ball to him in the first place, so there are a few unsung heroes who can be attributed to that result as well.

Indeed Scott. How quickly we forget. How about the contributions of Ball, Williams (the greatest midfielder we had since Skilton) and Stewie Maxfield, who was key to the cultural chamge at the club. As for Eade, he coached in the Hawthorn style, and is a very intelligent coach. One problem with Eade was the Rocket in his soul. Roos not only won a premiership and should have won consecutive Grand Finals, (we won't go there), but we won them with a strategy, player management and revolutionary game plane. The best AFL coach since John Kennedy (the godfather of the Hawthorn style).

[swansrule100]

Indeed Scott. How quickly we forget. How about the contributions of Ball, Williams (the greatest midfielder we had since Skilton) and Stewie Maxfield, who was key to the cultural chamge at the club. As for Eade, he coached in the Hawthorn style, and is a very intelligent coach. One problem with Eade was the Rocket in his soul. Roos not only won a premiership and should have won consecutive Grand Finals, (we won't go there), but we won them with a strategy, player management and revolutionary game plane. The best AFL coach since Jihn Kennedy (the godfather of the Hawthorn style).

so paul williams is better than paul kelly, greg williams, gerard healy to name 3 who won brownlows and a few others?

whos the 2nd best since skilton? bevan?

[Lohengrin]

Roos not only won a premiership and should have won consecutive Grand Finals, (we won't go there), but we won them with a strategy, player management and revolutionary game plane. The best AFL coach since Jihn Kennedy (the godfather of the Hawthorn style).So Roos is a better coach than Eade because he won a flag (which categorically wouldn't have occurred without Davis regardless of other players involved), but Roos is also a better coach than Sheedy, Malthouse, Matthews, Parkin, Blight, and Pagan who have won multiple flags?

[swansrule100]

robert walls won a flag too! anyone can

[NMWBloods]

I think Roos is a better coach in terms of player management while Eade is a better coach in terms of matchday tactics. I think the differences in their ability as coaches overall is minimal and I don't see the flag being such a meaningful tiebreaker.

[connolly]

So Roos is a better coach than Eade because he won a flag (which categorically wouldn't have occurred without Davis regardless of other players involved), but Roos is also a better coach than Sheedy, Malthouse, Matthews, Parkin, Blight, and Pagan who have won multiple flags?

Those coaches you named as multiple grand final winners all had better lists (particularly Mathews, the luckiest coach in the history of the game.). But the clincher is that Roos changed the way the game is played with tempo football. By the way it is really incredible that this thread should become another Davo strokefest. Mon dieu!

[connolly]

so paul williams is better than paul kelly, greg williams, gerard healy to name 3 who won brownlows and a few others?

whos the 2nd best since skilton? bevan?

Yep. Paul Williams was the best, particularly better than Greg Williams. More pace and better kick. Better kick and more skillful than Kelly. Healy was an outside receiver in a team of expensive mercenaries. If you won't accept he was the best midfielder since Skilton would you agree he was the best rover (to use the old fashion term)?

[ScottH]

Indeed Scott. How quickly we forget. How about the contributions of Ball, Williams (the greatest midfielder we had since Skilton) and Stewie Maxfield, who was key to the cultural chamge at the club. As for Eade, he coached in the Hawthorn style, and is a very intelligent coach. One problem with Eade was the Rocket in his soul. Roos not only won a premiership and should have won consecutive Grand Finals, (we won't go there), but we won them with a strategy, player management and revolutionary game plane. The best AFL coach since John Kennedy (the godfather of the Hawthorn style).

The much maligned Ablett had a big hand in it all too.

[liz]

I don't see the flag being such a meaningful tiebreaker.

But a flag and a GF back-up (to the narrowest loss possible) could be argued to be a meaningful tiebreaker.

Also look at what they did with the cattle they had. Eade inherited a team with 3 bona-fide superstars in Roos, Kelly and Lockett. Two were in the twilight of their careers but continued to play excellent footy for a couple of years under Eade. One was at the height of his career, having won the Brownlow the year before Eade took over. I think Kelly got a little better, if anything, from 1996 to mid 1998 when he did his knee, but essentially all three played at the level we knew they could.

Luffy, Dunkley and Stafford are the players who stand-out as suddenly emerging into pretty good players under Eade.

However, Roos' record is better in this department. Under him, Barry Hall turned from an ill-disciplined and erratic player into one of the best (and most consistent) power forwards in the comp. ROK emerged from slowish, slightly aggro tweener into one of the hardest running half forwards in the game. Bolton had the confidence instilled in him to go from fringe Lions player to AA defender. Kirk was on the verge of being delisted but instead turned first into tagger-supreme and then involved into one of the best clearance players in the competition. Jolly has turned from splinter-collector into a pretty decent ruck.

Sure there are "failures" there too. Whatever one's view of Davis, I think it is pretty clear that he and Roos are not a match made in heaven. And Roos himself admitted last year that Schneider failed to build on his early promise.

A lot of this - both the successes and the failures - has to be put down to the players themselves. But I think Roos has to be given credit for creating something that enabled these fringe players to emerge into very good AFL players.

[NMWBloods]

In terms of players I think Eade's team had more stars but Roos' team was more balanced. One of the problems with Eade's team was weakness in the bottom half dozen (Blight's maxim) whereas Roos had a better bottom half dozen IMO.

Still, as I said, Roos is the better player manager.

[Rod_]

Seems that the vote is Roooooos

2nd part of the question could have been.

If we continue to slide next year how long before someone calls for his neck?

I would dare to say we are developing a team of good kids and the legacy of trading off the middle aged group over the past 2 years is being realised.

If we discard all the players that we have collectively bagged over the past few months, we have little or no mid aged group players to lead for the next 5 + years.

I hope the succession planning works for generation next ....

Rod_

[Donners]

History may well show Eade to have been a superior recruiter - certainly in the draft.

[Plugger46]

Yep. Paul Williams was the best, particularly better than Greg Williams. More pace and better kick. Better kick and more skillful than Kelly. Healy was an outside receiver in a team of expensive mercenaries. If you won't accept he was the best midfielder since Skilton would you agree he was the best rover (to use the old fashion term)?

I didn't see enough of Healy but Paul Williams was nowhere near the footballer Kelly or Diesel were.

[connolly]

I didn't see enough of Healy but Paul Williams was nowhere near the footballer Kelly or Diesel were.

Footballer? Kelly's courage, inspirational acts, tackling and his strength were superior. But Willo was a better kick (literally by a mile), better first touch player and much quicker. As for Greg Williams, possibly the only midfielder to be slower than Benny Mathews, he had great hands and was strong in the packs and a better hand ball. Willo would kill him for pace and kicking. No one, and i repeat no one broke the lines and straightened up our run like Paul Williams. Yep the best in terms of skill, run and creativity since the great Skilts. (Won't even mention Healy as both of us probably lead busy lives and life is too short etc, etc.)

[BSA5]

This, to me, is a worry. To have an outgoing coach dictate who will replace him, in this case his deputy, makes no sense. If we want to continue down the same line then why replace Roos at all? Any new coach should not be a Roos deputy, it should be some one coming in fresh, hopefully with new ideas. Given Horses' major role over the last few years, it would be same old same old to the players ears...ie stale and on the nose.

I don't disagree with you. But then, if Roos leaves, it will be because he no longer wants to coach. In which case it isn't a question of whether or not we want to travel down the same line. Maybe the club does want to travel down the same line, but as Roos won't be available, they want the next best thing in Longmire.

[connolly]

I don't disagree with you. But then, if Roos leaves, it will be because he no longer wants to coach. In which case it isn't a question of whether or not we want to travel down the same line. Maybe the club does want to travel down the same line, but as Roos won't be available, they want the next best thing in Longmire.

We need a spark. Something inspirational. Stewie Maxfield must come under consideration if he wants it. A Kevin Sheedy with a brain.

[Lohengrin]

Yep. Paul Williams was the best, particularly better than Greg Williams. More pace and better kick. Better kick and more skillful than Kelly. Healy was an outside receiver in a team of expensive mercenaries. If you won't accept he was the best midfielder since Skilton would you agree he was the best rover (to use the old fashion term)?
Your easy dismissal of champion players, Brownlow medallists and TotC members explains a lot about your views of Bevan as a great player.

[connolly]

Your easy dismissal of champion players, Brownlow medallists and TotC members explains a lot about your views of Bevan as a great player.

Didn't dismiss anyone, except Healy and his ego can look after itself. Was simply making a comparison which is by definition subjective. As for the TotC's i have compassion for orphans, starving millions in Africa and Colleen the whale. But even this generous well of human kindness has a limit to the depths that it can plumb.

[2005]

Roos delivered us a premiership. Case closed.


The answer is there.

[Dogzbody]

RROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSS SSSSSSSSS

Has done what no other could do for us, understand his group and make a plan to win a GF

[DST]

Ron Barassi was Better than both sorry to say ,in my opinion.

I say if Barassi was given the 1 more year deal he wanted, Swannies would've won the 1996 Gran Final.

As far as im concerned Eade only got to the 96 Gran Final on the Back of Barassi hard work.

After all Barassi brought Swannies back from the Wooden Spoon Days.

I say bring back Barassi

Don't get me wrong Barassi was great, but he was nothing more than a stop gap measure to bring a club back for the dead and give it some purpose and meaning.

That was what he did (very well) and then thankfully he handed over the reigns to someone who could take us forward.

As for the Eade vs Roos, both are astute and tactically sound but Roos get's my vote due to him being able to get the absolute best out of his players and for his habit for remaining in control while the whole world around him is turning pear shape.

I am not sure we would have won the GF in 2005 if we had Eade in the box.

DST
:D

[Lohengrin]

By the way it is really incredible that this thread should become another Davo strokefest. Mon dieu!And yet some of the same people who are sick of what Davis did three years ago say that Roos is a better coach because of what he did three years ago, yet the two are inextricably linked.

[Legs Akimbo]

It's a complicated question.

Roos has achieved more, but Eade built the list that gave Roos the Premiership. He's doing something similar at Footscray. Fine connossieur of sausages is Rod Eade and a great technician of the game.

Roos is a greater motivator of men, but ironically, his steadfast faith in his players and method, which proved the decisive factors in our premiership, is proving to be an achilles heel.

To prove his metal, Roos now has to show he can pick, nurture and develop a new generation of players. As I have said in other posts, I think some of his ideas on the draft are just plain wrong and I think he may fail because he is overly risk averse. He over values the work ethic and under values pure talent.