Where have all the fans gone!!!!

[Primmy]

Oh dear. That marketing man must have struck again. Something is going wrong with the way the Swans are selling the club, that's for sure.

The best way to alienate people is to make negative statements such as is being bandied around at present. You never attract people by stating such things as "Sydney only like winners", "Where have all the fans gone!". Who on earth would turn up at games expecting to be bored and disinterested.

Liz, I am sure you would be much better at this job than the present incumbent!

Swans, try this. "Its fantastic how many fans are coming to the games". "Loyalty is contagious, we love it". "Welcome to everyone" "Its great we are winning, but even when we are not doing so well everyone gets involved". "Its a great spectacle". blah blah

Talk it up. Stop talking it down. You never win people over by overplaying the boring bits.

Thoughts? Arguments?

[ScottH]

I thought it was interesting, that a few k's south of Homebush (Centenary Drive ??), there is a billboard with a sign advertising the Swans V WC in May. Considering this weekend is one of the biggest draw cards for a homebush game, a little promotion of the correct game wouldn't go astray.

[Jewels]

I thought it was interesting, that a few k's south of Homebush (Centenary Drive ??), there is a billboard with a sign advertising the Swans V WC in May. Considering this weekend is one of the biggest draw cards for a homebush game, a little promotion of the correct game wouldn't go astray.

Yep, spotted that the other day and had a good old chuckle to myself.

[Lucky Knickers]

Marketing? What marketing.....
They should be having a big event in martin place on Friday. It should have Daisy, Neon Leon, Malthouse along with Goodes, Kirky, Baz and Roos. Handing out free tickets and talking it up.
Both the AFL and the Club should hang their heads in shame. LAZY.

[ernie koala]

I think all would agree winning puts bums on seats. The problem is, it's impossible to win all the time year after year (the bleeding obvious). So the club needs to capture the publics imagination in other ways...like playing an exciting brand of footy, winning against the odds, 2003 rings a bell, having some exciting high draft picks coming through. None of these things are acheived by plodding along in the middle of the field, scratching out wins, playing conservative footy.
What these figures show is that Roos way isn't working as it doesn't capture the publics interest. The view that "Sydneysiders only like a winner" is cliched crap. Like sports fans everywhere we like winning ( the bleeding obvious) but if that's not possible we want to be surprised, entertained, go to a game where the unpredictable may happen. And if that means going to the bottom 3 or 4 of the ladder for a year or 2, so be it. It beats the painfully slow predictable slide we are currently witnessing.

[SwansFan1972]

I wonder if the Swans will give the AFL a full and frank disclosure on how they handled membership renewals this year?

Views from a few lapsed members might make the AFL wonder if they really can help at all off-field. All their blarney at the moment about helping the Swans with marketing, memberships, development etc can only work if the host organisation doesn't set about shooting itself in the foot.

The initial concourse reclassification to gold, then the capitulation and making it silver, which still left huge hikes in family and child ticket prices, along with the abolition of season tickets, (just to squeeze more money out of those who hitherto didn't see value in getting a key ring, a limited vote and access to diminishing numbers of post-game functions) would probably be of interest to the beancounters at AFL HQ.

[hammo]

I would like to think it's a sign of the Swans maturing as a club and Sydney as a football market.

Hopefully we've reached the end of the cliched rubbish about Sydney not being able to bottom-out, and of marketing games to the chardonnay-sipping event going crowd.

The fact is, the way the competition is structured makes it impossible to keep topping up with journeymen to stay competitive. Even more so with the style of play now in use across the AFL where there is such emphasis on skill.

The Geelong comparison about early draft picks barely holds up to scrutiny when you consider their best player was taken with a father son selection.

Sydney would be best biting the bullet and collecting as many early draft picks as possible to build a side based on speed and skill. The rusted on fans will be there for the ride and the club will attract new supporters when the upswing begins.

[Cheer Squad]

There's no buzz about the Swans at the moment. Everyone knows we're not contenders at the moment and probably won't be for some time. We're going through the same thing that happened after the mid-80s and mid-90s.

When it's clear that we're on the up again, the crowds will come back.

[Cardinal]

If we smash Collingwood this week we'll be contenders! Two straight wins thats all I ask (till 5 Jul).

They are advertsing the game on Fox Sports.

[SCGonasunnyday]

Hmm talk to a taxi driver or a restaurant owner about how business is going. This is the first recession in 17 years and people are cutting back on their spending.

It is clear that paying for Swans memberships or going to games is something a lot of people and families are cutting because it is a lot of money which can be saved and because they know they are unlikely to miss a premiership year.

Whilst there are other factors, it is mostly the economy people.

[royboy42]

I absolutely believe that the restructuring of ticketing this year has cost the club dearly.
Even from where I sit in the Brewongle, I can see so many of the regulars from the last ten years are absent this year, AND their seats are empty...not resold to new people!
Granted this is only one person's view and thus reasonably insignificant, but with the announcement of thousands missing from last year's membership, it just may be correct.
My mate who has sat with my family and friends since 1996 asked that he be able to drop the ANZ component, but retain his platinum seats with us at the SCG, was refused. In fact, the pelican he spoke to on the phone asked if he wanted to cancel his membership there and then.NO felxibilty, no nuttin...so, he decided rather than sit away from his mates , he would cancel. I wonder how many others were in exactly the same boat!
And , of course, there is nothing worse than a disgruntled customer. He has spread that story far and wide..not good publicity!

[goswannie14]

Hmm talk to a taxi driver or a restaurant owner about how business is going. This is the first recession in 17 years and people are cutting back on their spending.

It is clear that paying for Swans memberships or going to games is something a lot of people and families are cutting because it is a lot of money which can be saved and because they know they are unlikely to miss a premiership year.

Whilst there are other factors, it is mostly the economy people.I know the press would have us believe this crap, but most people, unless they lose their job, are better off now than they have been for a while. petrol prices are down, interest rates are down. The economy furphy is nothing more than that....a furphy.

[connolly]

I absolutely believe that the restructuring of ticketing this year has cost the club dearly.
Even from where I sit in the Brewongle, I can see so many of the regulars from the last ten years are absent this year, AND their seats are empty...not resold to new people!
Granted this is only one person's view and thus reasonably insignificant, but with the announcement of thousands missing from last year's membership, it just may be correct.
My mate who has sat with my family and friends since 1996 asked that he be able to drop the ANZ component, but retain his platinum seats with us at the SCG, was refused. In fact, the pelican he spoke to on the phone asked if he wanted to cancel his membership there and then.NO felxibilty, no nuttin...so, he decided rather than sit away from his mates , he would cancel. I wonder how many others were in exactly the same boat!
And , of course, there is nothing worse than a disgruntled customer. He has spread that story far and wide..not good publicity!

The buck has to stop somewhere gentlemen. Spotlight on the man giving the finger. Take a bow Dick.

[Primmy]

And I want to add another thing which may or may not be well received.

How on earth are they going to maintain a solid Sydney fan base when they shift the huge event the Hall of Fame to Melbourne. I feel totally alienated by this.

We must be the laughing stock of Melbourne having a major event for the Sydney Swans held in another state 1000 ks away!

I thought we were the Sydney Swans. Have been for over 25 years. We are no longer the South Melbourne Swans. Are they thinking of shifting the club back down to Melbourne? I guess we just don't count any more.

[goswannie14]

And I want to add another thing which may or may not be well received.

How on earth are they going to maintain a solid Sydney fan base when they shift the huge event the Hall of Fame to Melbourne. I feel totally alienated by this.

We must be the laughing stock of Melbourne having a major event for the Sydney Swans held in another state 1000 ks away!

I thought we were the Sydney Swans. Have been for over 25 years. We are no longer the South Melbourne Swans. Are they thinking of shifting the club back down to Melbourne? I guess we just don't count any more.
:rolleyes:

[floppinab]

which still left huge hikes in family and child ticket prices, along with the abolition of season tickets, (just to squeeze more money out of those who hitherto didn't see value in getting a key ring, a limited vote and access to diminishing numbers of post-game functions) would probably be of interest to the beancounters at AFL HQ.

As one of those lapsed members (kids playing football all day Satdy & Sundy) when we have bought tickets at the gate this year, have been absolutely flabbergasted at the prices. It has since turned us off of going to games where we might have. Be interested to see a comparison to NRL prices particularly @ Homebush.

EDIT : Just did a quick and dirty comparison. Equiv seat for an adult for Sat. night $55 for gold ~= $30 for the Bulldogs game on Fri. night. Nearly double!!!! Explains a lot.

[SwansFan1972]

As one of those lapsed members (kids playing football all day Satdy & Sundy) when we have bought tickets at the gate this year, have been absolutely flabbergasted at the prices. It has since turned us off of going to games where we might have. Be interested to see a comparison to NRL prices particularly @ Homebush.

EDIT : Just did a quick and dirty comparison. Equiv seat for an adult for Sat. night $55 for gold ~= $30 for the Bulldogs game on Fri. night. Nearly double!!!! Explains a lot.

yes - "gold" seats are a bust, but the best value is a family pass in the bronze zone - $40 for 2a + 2j (basically, the kids get in for free). Not the best seats in the house, but my godsons (9 years) thought it was awesome sitting behind the cheersquad at the Port game, and the thrill of perhaps getting hit by the ball had them very excited! After them only ever knowing their old seats on the O"Reilly wing, (where it hasn't always been really easy to get a chant going) they loved being in the thick of the cheering and screaming! :)

So far we've been in both bronze zones at either end of the ground - the kids loved the cheersquad end the most. For the kid-free Carlton game we sat in the new Trumper stand - was ok - but as you say, much more expensive. It has actually been a bit refreshing to move around the ground a bit.

And a quick calculation - we've spent $360 so far on tickets this season without missing a game (includes silver superpass at Homebush). Had we had access to our season tickets at 2008 prices (admittedly, we haven't bought as many seats this year as we did last year - we used to buy two family passes to accommodate whichever anklebiters wanted to come each week), we'd have spent the equivalent of $527. Under the 2009 pricing it would have been $700 (five out of eleven games).

So, not bad value for us week to week, albeit with compromises!

Not good for the club's bottom line however!

[shaun..]

The Superpass to ANZ games was wonderfully cheap and quite a shock after dropping membership this year. $55 for the 4 games (mind you it was a Student priced ticket :D)

Now drop the prices for SCG games!

[SCGonasunnyday]

I know the press would have us believe this crap, but most people, unless they lose their job, are better off now than they have been for a while. petrol prices are down, interest rates are down. The economy furphy is nothing more than that....a furphy.

And yes at 10% unemployment 90% of people still have their jobs and can buy up cheap shares and property, enjoy cheap air fares, discounts at Harvey Norman and find it bloody easy to get taxis in the city.

But the point is that a recession is built on fear. Do you seriously think that people aren't cutting spending due to economic fears? And that this is the primary reason crowds are down at Swans games???

What makes the Swans different from taxis, restaurants, air line fares, cars, furniture - all these industries suffer because they sell things people want but don't need.

[Hartijon]

I know the press would have us believe this crap, but most people, unless they lose their job, are better off now than they have been for a while. petrol prices are down, interest rates are down. The economy furphy is nothing more than that....a furphy.
So the $60,000 missing from my superannuation account is a furphy and I am actually better off? You should be a politician.Kevin could use someone like you.

[Roscoe]

This is definetley my last year after being a member for 14 years

Many factors - the renewal farce

The economy/cost

Sat afternoon games - should have been Friday night instead

Do not wan't to be committed to every game to get my money's worth

If I want I will just go on line and get a ticket whenever I want to go

There is a severe lack of promotion and marketing than in previous years

[Nico]

The cold Sydney winter might have something to do with it.

[The Big Cat]

This is definetley my last year after being a member for 14 years

Many factors - the renewal farce

The economy/cost

Sat afternoon games - should have been Friday night instead

Do not wan't to be committed to every game to get my money's worth

If I want I will just go on line and get a ticket whenever I want to go

There is a severe lack of promotion and marketing than in previous years

Real supporters stick whatever the circumstances. I've been a member for as long as I can remember and my team is located a thousand kilometers away. I travel three hours to every Victorian game. If I lived in Sydney I'd be at every game with bells on.

[pinkemu]

This is definetley my last year after being a member for 14 years

Many factors - the renewal farce

The economy/cost

Sat afternoon games - should have been Friday night instead

Do not wan't to be committed to every game to get my money's worth

If I want I will just go on line and get a ticket whenever I want to go

There is a severe lack of promotion and marketing than in previous years

I think you'll find many that disagree on the Saturday games, best of the fixture for me.

And think of the carbon footprint;)

[Darren Thomson]

I think all would agree winning puts bums on seats. The problem is, it's impossible to win all the time year after year (the bleeding obvious). So the club needs to capture the publics imagination in other ways...like playing an exciting brand of footy, winning against the odds, 2003 rings a bell, having some exciting high draft picks coming through. None of these things are acheived by plodding along in the middle of the field, scratching out wins, playing conservative footy.
What these figures show is that Roos way isn't working as it doesn't capture the publics interest. The view that "Sydneysiders only like a winner" is cliched crap. Like sports fans everywhere we like winning ( the bleeding obvious) but if that's not possible we want to be surprised, entertained, go to a game where the unpredictable may happen. And if that means going to the bottom 3 or 4 of the ladder for a year or 2, so be it. It beats the painfully slow predictable slide we are currently witnessing.

Ridicilous, Roosy's way brought us a flag, and in 2005 there were bums on seats make no mistake, No the amrketing guys have got it wrong but we are a fickle bunch of supporters, we are not Collingwood who turn up rain hail or shine, we go when it's in our favour. We're a big chance of beating Collingwood, they haven't exactly set the world on fire this year, but it's like Roos says, we need 22 players to turn up, not 14. Some of these guys wouldn't be getting a game if it wasn't for the shotness of our list, and we are still getting used to a few positional changes that have affected our rotations etc. Look at the injury list as well while yr at it. There's nothing wrong with the way we play or the game plan, when we stick to it. If the players can focus for the whole game, we could beat anyone, well, maybe not Geelong, I can't imagine that Mick is fully match fit yet along with a coule otherblokes, but we have had passengers, Moore comes to mind, and they have finally bitten the bullet with Ablett, time to bring in Orrreal, get Vesper on the ground as soon as he is up to it, Meredith, Nick Smith, DOK those guys might giver some more leg speed, which was the evident thing missing against the dogs, but to suggest the coach or his game plan is to blame is ludicrous. If we play on our terms we win it's that simple.

[goswannie14]

So the $60,000 missing from my superannuation account is a furphy and I am actually better off? You should be a politician.Kevin could use someone like you.I suppose you died of swine flu too?:p

[pinkemu]

As one that was unhappy about the new Membership disaster I was slightly pleased to have my Concourse Gold changed to Silver.
What really p@@@@d me off was discovering that this didn't carry over to public tickets.
Even worse was witnessing a friend and his daughter (first game) turn up to the Carlton game and the cheapest tickets available were "Gold" (in the new Silver section). I found this interesting as there were plenty of seats still available in the "Silver" sections of the ground. ???:confused:

I wouldn't blame the "financial Crisis" for a marketing stuff up and the grubby money fingers of those out of touch with Joe public.

[royboy42]

Real supporters stick whatever the circumstances. I've been a member for as long as I can remember and my team is located a thousand kilometers away. I travel three hours to every Victorian game. If I lived in Sydney I'd be at every game with bells on.

I respect your loyalty, but this economic downturn is actually pretty serious.. lots of ppl are regarding renewal as a BUSINESS decision..and the management at the swans mis timed their changes badly
...people made their changes as a cold blooded financial move..and the Swans decision to go platinum gold etc was ill advised.

[ernie koala]

Ridicilous, Roosy's way brought us a flag, and in 2005 there were bums on seats make no mistake, No the amrketing guys have got it wrong but we are a fickle bunch of supporters, we are not Collingwood who turn up rain hail or shine, we go when it's in our favour. We're a big chance of beating Collingwood, they haven't exactly set the world on fire this year, but it's like Roos says, we need 22 players to turn up, not 14. Some of these guys wouldn't be getting a game if it wasn't for the shotness of our list, and we are still getting used to a few positional changes that have affected our rotations etc. Look at the injury list as well while yr at it. There's nothing wrong with the way we play or the game plan, when we stick to it. If the players can focus for the whole game, we could beat anyone, well, maybe not Geelong, I can't imagine that Mick is fully match fit yet along with a coule otherblokes, but we have had passengers, Moore comes to mind, and they have finally bitten the bullet with Ablett, time to bring in Orrreal, get Vesper on the ground as soon as he is up to it, Meredith, Nick Smith, DOK those guys might giver some more leg speed, which was the evident thing missing against the dogs, but to suggest the coach or his game plan is to blame is ludicrous. If we play on our terms we win it's that simple.

You have completely missed my point. :confused: I'm talking about the "no bottoming out" policy, and the effect it has on public interest/ bums on seats.( ie; not what diehard fans think, but what casual come and go sports fans think ).
On the issue of marketing and membership changes, I agree with others here that both have been lamentable and has added to the diminishing interest. But if what your selling is a slow slide down the ladder with a predictable conservative approach....then your pushing @@@@ up hill.

[liz]

You have completely missed my point. :confused: I'm talking about the "no bottoming out" policy, and the effect it has on public interest/ bums on seats.( ie; not what diehard fans think, but what casual come and go sports fans think ).


I am not sure what effect you think "bottoming out" would have on the casual fan. The message of going to the bottom to get better draft picks would be lost on a casual sports fan given the AFL is the only one of the major Australian codes that has a draft. All the casual fan would see is an uncompetitive team and the media coverage would be even more scant that it currently is.

There could be an argument from a purely footballing perspective that it needs to be done. But not from a short term "growing interest in the casual fan" point of view.

And even from a footballing point of view only one premiership in history can remotely be attributed to "bottoming out" - ie Hawthorns. But not only were they fortunate (or smart) enough to do it in over a period when it netted them two fantastic forwards, they also managed to dupe both North and Freo into some incredibly delicious trades along the way.

And then look at Richmond who have been "bottoming out" for the past 25 years. Or Freo who have been bottoming out since they came into existence. You get to a point where a club forgets how to win.

Give me a competitive outfit every time, one with players who respect their jumper, their team mates and the history of the club, who give it their best most times they run out, even if sometimes its not good enough.

And hey, if we can't win a premiership every year, or even seriously contend for one, then how about taking the small pleasures out of each weekend outing, like being treated to the athletic power, grace and skill of an Adam Goodes. Like watching a skinny 17yo from the Adelaide suburbs weave his magic in front of goal as he matures into the first 300 gamer the club has seen. Or watch a scrawny, slow "reject" from southern NSW will himself into one of the mightiest warriors in the league and on occasions quite literally will his team mates into unlikely victories.

Watching Our Team win the premiership in 2005, and nearly doing it again in 2006, was absolutely wonderful. Probably it was even better for those of us who had personally experienced more of the "72 years" than I had. But I'm not going to spend every season worrying about when we'll win another. I'd rather just look forward to next game from the Monday after the last one finished, take maximum enjoyment out of the small pleasures along the way, and have faith that those running the club are busting a gut to get the club to its next premiership, however many years away that might be.

[Bear]

There is no ongoing buzz about AFL in Sydney.

The Swans play and you get a bit of good coverage for the code, then we are drowned out for 2 weeks by 15+ other sporting franchises.. then we play again, then go quiet for 2 weeks... and the cycle continues.

We are trying hard and doing a good job to get 1/17th share, but need more AFL in this city to keep the flow going so we stay relevant as a code and a club.

[Primmy]

I knew I could count on Liz to put her stamp on this thread with a well measured approach.

Exactly! Its all there, watching kids become blokes become men. The "Ahah!" moments, when you can see at last that they get it. Its taken Lewie years to find his niche and now he has and he is playing like a man instead of looking embarrassed he got picked to play. Like watching Macca finally kick the ball between the post. Like watching Stewey fly down the wing eyes darting and delivering the ball like a dart. Like Kell climbing the pack and letting loose his happy face. Like Plugger being, well, Plugger. Like watching the evolution of the anxious Jolls to the self assured senior player. The journey of Jude from over excited labrador pup into a fierce player. Realising that the skinny kid in the practice game against Collingwood at Manuka was a gift we knew nothing about! And at present watching over White, Vespa, Merry, Happy, et al.

Its not all about the high points, its the journey as well. But years ago the Club looked after and valued the members. We had fan days, we met the players, we had the aftermatch to look forward to (traipsing to Kings Cross!!!) and when we could afford to go the the functions. There was a buzz. Somewhere along the line together with the cost cutting of the Big Barbeque, the cancelling of the North Sydney practice match, etc etc they have failed to generate excitement and positive reinforcement.

There is now a feeling of us and them, and it used to be US.

[Jewels]

I am not sure what effect you think "bottoming out" would have on the casual fan. The message of going to the bottom to get better draft picks would be lost on a casual sports fan given the AFL is the only one of the major Australian codes that has a draft. All the casual fan would see is an uncompetitive team and the media coverage would be even more scant that it currently is.

There could be an argument from a purely footballing perspective that it needs to be done. But not from a short term "growing interest in the casual fan" point of view.

And even from a footballing point of view only one premiership in history can remotely be attributed to "bottoming out" - ie Hawthorns. But not only were they fortunate (or smart) enough to do it in over a period when it netted them two fantastic forwards, they also managed to dupe both North and Freo into some incredibly delicious trades along the way.

And then look at Richmond who have been "bottoming out" for the past 25 years. Or Freo who have been bottoming out since they came into existence. You get to a point where a club forgets how to win.

Give me a competitive outfit every time, one with players who respect their jumper, their team mates and the history of the club, who give it their best most times they run out, even if sometimes its not good enough.

And hey, if we can't win a premiership every year, or even seriously contend for one, then how about taking the small pleasures out of each weekend outing, like being treated to the athletic power, grace and skill of an Adam Goodes. Like watching a skinny 17yo from the Adelaide suburbs weave his magic in front of goal as he matures into the first 300 gamer the club has seen. Or watch a scrawny, slow "reject" from southern NSW will himself into one of the mightiest warriors in the league and on occasions quite literally will his team mates into unlikely victories.

Watching Our Team win the premiership in 2005, and nearly doing it again in 2006, was absolutely wonderful. Probably it was even better for those of us who had personally experienced more of the "72 years" than I had. But I'm not going to spend every season worrying about when we'll win another. I'd rather just look forward to next game from the Monday after the last one finished, take maximum enjoyment out of the small pleasures along the way, and have faith that those running the club are busting a gut to get the club to its next premiership, however many years away that might be.

That's a beautiful post Liz, the last paragraph in particular brought a tear to my eye.
Congratulations on your ability to put into words the sheer joy (win or lose) of being a Swan.

[shaun..]

The Superpass to ANZ games was wonderfully cheap and quite a shock after dropping membership this year. $55 for the 4 games (mind you it was a Student priced ticket :D)

Now drop the prices for SCG games!
That was quick.. got a letter today offering a SCG 3 game Superpass for being a previous member but not renewing for 09.. awesome :D

[Cardinal]

Well this fan is going to miss the Pies game - it's the Swine flu you see.

But I'll be on board for the Crows.

[Flossie]

I am not sure what effect you think "bottoming out" would have on the casual fan. The message of going to the bottom to get better draft picks would be lost on a casual sports fan given the AFL is the only one of the major Australian codes that has a draft. All the casual fan would see is an uncompetitive team and the media coverage would be even more scant that it currently is.

There could be an argument from a purely footballing perspective that it needs to be done. But not from a short term "growing interest in the casual fan" point of view.

And even from a footballing point of view only one premiership in history can remotely be attributed to "bottoming out" - ie Hawthorns. But not only were they fortunate (or smart) enough to do it in over a period when it netted them two fantastic forwards, they also managed to dupe both North and Freo into some incredibly delicious trades along the way.

And then look at Richmond who have been "bottoming out" for the past 25 years. Or Freo who have been bottoming out since they came into existence. You get to a point where a club forgets how to win.

Give me a competitive outfit every time, one with players who respect their jumper, their team mates and the history of the club, who give it their best most times they run out, even if sometimes its not good enough.

And hey, if we can't win a premiership every year, or even seriously contend for one, then how about taking the small pleasures out of each weekend outing, like being treated to the athletic power, grace and skill of an Adam Goodes. Like watching a skinny 17yo from the Adelaide suburbs weave his magic in front of goal as he matures into the first 300 gamer the club has seen. Or watch a scrawny, slow "reject" from southern NSW will himself into one of the mightiest warriors in the league and on occasions quite literally will his team mates into unlikely victories.

Watching Our Team win the premiership in 2005, and nearly doing it again in 2006, was absolutely wonderful. Probably it was even better for those of us who had personally experienced more of the "72 years" than I had. But I'm not going to spend every season worrying about when we'll win another. I'd rather just look forward to next game from the Monday after the last one finished, take maximum enjoyment out of the small pleasures along the way, and have faith that those running the club are busting a gut to get the club to its next premiership, however many years away that might be.
Liz you just said everything I believe about the Swans. They cant be premiers every year so I just go out and celebrate when we win, lament when we lose.

[Vonsteinman]

...have faith that those running the club are busting a gut to get the club to its next premiership, however many years away that might be.

A number of quotes could have been drawn from this post Liz, but this is the one that sticks out for me.

It continues to astound me that there are so many on this forum who appear to lack this one quality.

I hope there is a real silent majority in Sydney. I also hope that I'm sitting near them this week. After living in Melbourne until the end of '05 and travelling regularly to Sydney, almost incredibly, it's been nearly four years since I've been able to get to a Swans home game.

I've managed to travel from remote WA to games in Perth, with mixed success - that QF in '06, sitting in amongst the travelling fans was nothing short of awesome - and of course managed to get back home for the grand final which fell in holiday time.

I was also at Subi in '07 when Cousins and co ripped the heart out of our blokes and, unable to get tickets with the Sydney supporters, I was forced to sit amongst a bunch of idiots from Perth and endure taunts regarding the freshness of the scarf around my neck.

I could have pointed out that I'd been following my team for longer than their's had existed and that I was in fact on about my fifth scarf, the fourth being lost somewhere in South Melbourne in the wee hours of a September night in 2005. Indeed that my first scarf was one that was begrudgingly knitted by my Carlton-supporting mum so many years earlier.

I chose instead to defend the relatively new supporters of the club, because without these people, my club probably wouldn't be around today.

Now, from the remote NT, I will be driving for hours later today and flying in tomorrow (probably there's no need to point out that with fuel included, the round trip is going to sting me for a fair bit more than the price of a Sydney membership). And I'm not sure how I'll react if I find myself sitting near someone in red and white who is bagging out the coach/players/club.

Thankfully at least I can be guaranteed that the seat next to me will be filled by one who understands. My Sydney-based sister, who had to endure 11 years of the drought before I was born. She was lucky enough to get the seat next to my Dad in '05 -he'd endured about 65 of the 72 years.

These people appreciate the efforts that the club has made since to keep winning games on aging legs and with tired bodies.

They, like every Swans supporter, are excited when a Brett Meredith or Mike Pyke type get their chance. But they also have the faith that you refer to, that week after week, everyone at the club from the CEO to the bootstudder (or the equivalent now that his job is redundant) is doing the best to keep the club moving forward (or "onwards" if you like...)

[ernie koala]

I am not sure what effect you think "bottoming out" would have on the casual fan. The message of going to the bottom to get better draft picks would be lost on a casual sports fan given the AFL is the only one of the major Australian codes that has a draft. All the casual fan would see is an uncompetitive team and the media coverage would be even more scant that it currently is.

There could be an argument from a purely footballing perspective that it needs to be done. But not from a short term "growing interest in the casual fan" point of view.

And even from a footballing point of view only one premiership in history can remotely be attributed to "bottoming out" - ie Hawthorns. But not only were they fortunate (or smart) enough to do it in over a period when it netted them two fantastic forwards, they also managed to dupe both North and Freo into some incredibly delicious trades along the way.

And then look at Richmond who have been "bottoming out" for the past 25 years. Or Freo who have been bottoming out since they came into existence. You get to a point where a club forgets how to win.

Give me a competitive outfit every time, one with players who respect their jumper, their team mates and the history of the club, who give it their best most times they run out, even if sometimes its not good enough.


So what is it your suggesting in this last paragraph ?..that only the current players will respect their jumper,club history etc....and new recruits won't ??
This is just nice sounding sentiment, not reality. The overall culture of the club determines these things.
In terms of bottoming out... Obviously I'm not being clear enough. I am not suggesting purposely bottoming out. What I said was, that if as a result of changing personel and gamestyle the team goes down the ladder for a few years, so be it.(Adelaide come to mind as a club which has drafted well, brought plenty of young players in, changed their gamestyle and they are still more than competitive and they haven't bottomed out.) I think it's a better option than to go down the path of minimal drafting and an unchanged game style played by essentually the same players. We might still be competitive but without some major changes the next couple of years look challenging, and sadly predictable, to say the least. And membership and attendances will continue to dwindle. The writing was on the wall at the end of the 2007 season but the Swans have stubornly stayed on the same course and chose not to take their medicine, it's now looking like a bitter pill laced with compromised drafts.:mad:

[liz]

The writing was on the wall at the end of the 2007 season but the Swans have stubornly stayed on the same course and chose not to take their medicine, it's now looking like a bitter pill laced with compromised drafts.:mad:

Putting aside our clearly different philosophical outlooks (and the differences we perceive in the onfield game style), at a very practical level, what would have been different in 2008 and 2009 to date had the Swans taken the medicine you think they should have taken?

Who wouldn't have been on the list in 2008? And 2009? Traded or delisted? If traded, what could we reasonably have got for them? Who wouldn't have played as much senior football as they have in those seasons? Who would have played in their place? (Don't forget to allow for contractual status at the end of each season.)

We can all probably nominate a couple of changes but the ones I could nominate I reckon would have been pretty marginal in terms of impact on current list. Clearly you can see more significant changes that would have had greater impact.

[ernie koala]

Putting aside our clearly different philosophical outlooks (and the differences we perceive in the onfield game style), at a very practical level, what would have been different in 2008 and 2009 to date had the Swans taken the medicine you think they should have taken?

Who wouldn't have been on the list in 2008? And 2009? Traded or delisted? If traded, what could we reasonably have got for them? Who wouldn't have played as much senior football as they have in those seasons? Who would have played in their place? (Don't forget to allow for contractual status at the end of each season.)

We can all probably nominate a couple of changes but the ones I could nominate I reckon would have been pretty marginal in terms of impact on current list. Clearly you can see more significant changes that would have had greater impact.

In hindsight, anyone could name a list of unproductive players from 08/09 who should of been traded or delisted, what's the point of that.
Let me ask you some questions...
Do you think the Swans are well placed re..............
1. The average age of the list going into a period of compromised drafts?
2. The number of experienced players who will either retire or be delisted just prior to the period of compromised drafts (ie next 15 months)?
3. How effective the Swans gamestyle is against quality opposition (ie probable finalists)
4. The number of games the Swans win in wet conditions recently?
5. The number of away games the Swans have won in 08/09?
6. The overall depth of the Swans list at present?
7. The number of games played by players recruited over the past 4 years compared to other clubs?

[Bloody Hell]

In hindsight, anyone could name a list of unproductive players from 08/09 who should of been traded or delisted, what's the point of that.
Let me ask you some questions...
Do you think the Swans are well placed re..............
1. The average age of the list going into a period of compromised drafts?
2. The number of experienced players who will either retire or be delisted just prior to the period of compromised drafts (ie next 15 months)?
3. How effective the Swans gamestyle is against quality opposition (ie probable finalists)
4. The number of games the Swans win in wet conditions recently?
5. The number of away games the Swans have won in 08/09?
6. The overall depth of the Swans list at present?
7. The number of games played by players recruited over the past 4 years compared to other clubs?

All the points you make (in the form of questions) are directly related to what we were doing 4 years ago.

We are on the way down. Are we at our lowest ebb? I doubt it. The main problem we have is our middle age players aren't good enough. Aside from McVeigh I can't see anyone who could be argued to have the potential to be mentioned amongst the best in the league.

Kirk - O'Keefe - Bolton - Hall - O'Loughlin

Some dark days ahead.

[Frog]

Real supporters stick whatever the circumstances. I've been a member for as long as I can remember and my team is located a thousand kilometers away. I travel three hours to every Victorian game. If I lived in Sydney I'd be at every game with bells on.
You are not married, you don't have kids, certainly not teenagers, most definitely not ones that go to Uni, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth OR you have a very well paying job that only requires you to work 3 days a week ...

Am I close?

Neither are you on your statement of what a real supporter sticks to. Use IMO next time. I take offence to what you said there.

[The Big Cat]

Kirk - O'Keefe - Bolton - Hall - O'Loughlin

Some dark days ahead.

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot! Everyone's criticising our drafting and the need to get high picks. BUT:

Kirk - Rookie List
O'Keefe - Pick 56
O'Loughlin - Pick 40
Hall - Trade
Bolton - (Craig? - Preseason draft) On your list, only Jude Bolton was a high draft pick - 8

[The Big Cat]

Kirk - O'Keefe - Bolton - Hall - O'Loughlin

Some dark days ahead.

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot! Everyone's criticising our drafting and the need to get high picks. BUT:

Kirk - Rookie List
O'Keefe - Pick 56
OI'Loughlin - Pick 40
Hall - Trade
Bolton - (Craig? - Preseason draft) On your list, only Jude Bolton (if he's the Bolton you mean) was a high draft pick - 8

[The Big Cat]

You are not married, you don't have kids, certainly not teenagers, most definitely not ones that go to Uni, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth OR you have a very well paying job that only requires you to work 3 days a week ...

Am I close?

So far off you couldn't shoot me with a long range missile. I am married. I have five kids. They all have gone to Uni while I was a member of the Swans. I worked a full time job all my working life (as a teacher, so pretty ordinary pay) until I retired a couple of years ago only to see my super get obliterated by the financial crisis. I was born with a sheep dog in my face on a small unprofitable farm and would not have had tertiary education except for the studentships of the late sixties and seventies.

I see supporting my team as a priority. Oh, by the way, I don't drink or smoke which no doubt many failed members put before the club. But fair enough, each to their own. I know that some Swans supporters would have to choose between necessities and buying a membership and obviously they can't afford it.

But don't cry poor if you put alcohol and cigarettes before other choices such as supporting your club. Certainly don't cite poor form as an excuse. Or not being able to buy the odd ticket. Or the ticketing "Fiasco". All membership money goes directly to the club. Buy a ticket at the gate and the Swans get bugger-all!

In my opinion of course.

[pinkemu]

So far off you couldn't shoot me with a long range missile. I am married. I have five kids. They all have gone to Uni while I was a member of the Swans. I worked a full time job all my working life (as a teacher, so pretty ordinary pay) until I retired a couple of years ago only to see my super get obliterated by the financial crisis. I was born with a sheep dog in my face on a small unprofitable farm and would not have had tertiary education except for the studentships of the late sixties and seventies.
.

Not to offend (my mother in law and sister in law are teachers) but I don't think teachers pays are as ordinary as some.

[liz]

In hindsight, anyone could name a list of unproductive players from 08/09 who should of been traded or delisted, what's the point of that.

Pretty much no point but it is not what I asked you to do.

You said that the club should have realised at the end of 2007 that "it needed to take its medicine". The only interpretation I can think of of that phrase is that it had a number of choices to make between

- propping up the short term competitiveness of the team (ie staying mid-table) versus

- taking some short term pain in terms of competitiveness for the chance of longer term improvement.

How they implemented the decisions once made (ie actual players picked) is to some extent irrelevant in identifying what choices there were to be made. And had they taken the longer term option (your implication is that they didn't) it would be far too soon to assess success in any case.

So no, I am not asking you to apply hindsight at all. Just what choices you believe they had (within the constraints of contracts, injuries and other information available at the time) between long term vs short term.

If that is not what you meant by "taking their medicine", what did you mean?




Let me ask you some questions...
Do you think the Swans are well placed re..............
1. The average age of the list going into a period of compromised drafts?
2. The number of experienced players who will either retire or be delisted just prior to the period of compromised drafts (ie next 15 months)?
3. How effective the Swans gamestyle is against quality opposition (ie probable finalists)
4. The number of games the Swans win in wet conditions recently?
5. The number of away games the Swans have won in 08/09?
6. The overall depth of the Swans list at present?
7. The number of games played by players recruited over the past 4 years compared to other clubs?

I think few of those questions are particularly relevant to the decision making process around list management (including who gets games, not just whose on the list to start with) but I'll answer some of them anyway.

1 I think average age of the list is mostly an irrelevant stat. For a start, a single point measure rarely tells you much of interest about the make-up of a population. More significantly, if the Swans had recruited an extra x youngsters each year for the past few years at the expense of delisting older players, they would have a younger average age. But pretty much everyone of those players would have been taken at the back end of the draft and/or rookie draft, from which history tells us the hit rate is low. Even if they'd found a couple of gems, most of the players would never have made much of a contribution to the club's senior fortunes. It really doesn't matter one iota if a player is young if he is not much chop by the standards of the elite level competition.

2 I don't think the number of players due to retire is as much of an issue as some make out. It was said in 2003 that the Swans would struggle with the losses of Kelly, Dunkley, Schwass (and Cressa a year later). History tells us otherwise. Over the next few seasons others stepped up and turned themselves into bona fide stars of the competition. Sure, just because it happened then doesn't mean it is guaranteed to happen again. But on the other hand, it doesn't mean it won't.

It's also worth pointing out that we've lost two players this season who by conventional wisdom weren't yet in the age bracket of imminent retirement. West Coast went from supposedly dynasty builders to table proppers in the space of one off season when they lost two players they weren't expecting to.

On the other hand, the media was trying to pension off Robert Harvey from around the time he hit the 30 years mark. In the following 7 seasons, while he continued to play magnificent football, how many highly touted youngsters came and went with barely a whimper?

I acknowledge Harvey is an exceptional case but plenty of others have continued playing excellent football well into their 33rd, 34th, 35th years. Players that reach that age still playing good to great football do so because they are darned good players. My view is that if you have a gem of a player on your list you hold on to them for as long as they have the drive to keep playing, and you relish every moment that you are privileged to keep watching them play.

3 I doubt many of us believe the team is currently a world beater, or even a serious contender. Personally I think that has very little to do with game style and more to do with the skills of the players and their ability to consistently implement it. In 2005-6 they were able to do so more consistently (and yet were still outplayed on many occasions by other teams).

I don't think that is anything inherently good or bad about any game style. Basically teams win if they win more of the ball than the opponent, kick it to team mates more often than they kick it to the opposition, and are able to kick it through the big sticks rather than the little'uns.

I also don't think any team's game style is a static creature. I have watched the Swans' game style evolve significantly from 2003 to now (ie just looking at the Roos years). It is still evolving. I reckon what they are trying to do in 2009 is more different to 2008 than any change between other consecutive seasons apart from maybe the change from 2003-2004.

Are we watching the same team play?

4 Every since I started watching the Swans I can recall maybe half a dozen wet games we've won and I think most of those were against the same team (ironically the Wet Toasters). I can't provide any rational explanation why over 15 seasons, three coaches, numerous changes in player personnel we are still so hideously bad in the rain. But I've just come to accept it alongside death and taxes as one of life's few certainties. Fortunately, we don't actually play that many games in the wet so I reckon it's a pretty irrelevant factor in the overall scheme of things.

5 Not sure of the relevance of that question unless you are asking me to justify why I think the Swans will be premiers in 2009.

6 How does one measure depth? We are two senior players short and most of our most promising youngsters are either injured or are only recently returning from injury. So no, we don't currently have the depth of some other teams. But it is also kinda irrelevant unless my answer to 5 is really your question. Had we recruited 3,4 or even 5 extra youngsters last year our current depth wouldn't be any better. (Actually it would probably be worse.)

7 No. I am really frustrated that we haven't seen Vez out there yet this season. I had hoped Murphy and Currie would have made their debuts by now. I want to see if I am right in my belief Laidlaw could become a Matty Nicks type forward. I really liked what we saw of Meredith in his few games this year and I wish we'd seen more. I think Smith has the potential to be a quality player but we've had to wait until this week to see it. But the fact that none of those things has happened yet in 2009 has absolutely nothing to do with decisions at the selection table.

A similar picture could be drawn of last year. Schmidt, Meredith, Laidlaw, Thornton all had their seasons decimated by injury. Vez came in as soon as he was even close to ready. Smith got a couple of chances but realistically needed a bit more development (physical as much as anything). Murphy wasn't ready until the very end of the year (if even then) and then got himself injured. White might have got a few more chances but reckon he probably benefitted from spending the year in the magoos. Do you want me to go on?

There were some times during 2007 when there were some youngsters playing good enough football in the reserves to warrant a senior game or two, I thought, and yes I was a bit frustrated that they didn't. But I think the club was justified in believing it was a realistic contender in 2007 given what transpired the previous couple of years so the decision to stick with the most developed team was an understandable one.

Other clubs? Don't really care that much. But while there are some players in other teams who have come in and made an solid contribution, I reckon there are an awful lot getting games who aren't really ready, either due to injuries to senior players or because clubs are trying to sell the hype of youngsters to their impatient fans.

Now that I have answered your questions, are you game enough to answer mine?

Boy, that was a long, long-winded post, even by my impressive record of long, long-winded posts. BTW did I ever mention that I am really a Collingwood supporter? Go Pies!

[Darren Thomson]

You have completely missed my point. :confused: I'm talking about the "no bottoming out" policy, and the effect it has on public interest/ bums on seats.( ie; not what diehard fans think, but what casual come and go sports fans think ).
On the issue of marketing and membership changes, I agree with others here that both have been lamentable and has added to the diminishing interest. But if what your selling is a slow slide down the ladder with a predictable conservative approach....then your pushing @@@@ up hill.

Nope, read my other posts, what I'm suggesting is that we play the young guys NOW, go tall right down the spine, LRT, Pyke, Orreal, Jolly, White, Hall, Grundy. Put Mick in a pocket give him an extra year. I probably have missed yr point a bit, but would like to think we can get enuf fans at games to sustain the club even if we do bottom out for a couple years while we build a younger team, and find some speedy legs

[connolly]

So far off you couldn't shoot me with a long range missile. I am married. I have five kids. They all have gone to Uni while I was a member of the Swans. I worked a full time job all my working life (as a teacher, so pretty ordinary pay) until I retired a couple of years ago only to see my super get obliterated by the financial crisis. I was born with a sheep dog in my face on a small unprofitable farm and would not have had tertiary education except for the studentships of the late sixties and seventies.

I see supporting my team as a priority. Oh, by the way, I don't drink or smoke which no doubt many failed members put before the club. But fair enough, each to their own. I know that some Swans supporters would have to choose between necessities and buying a membership and obviously they can't afford it.

But don't cry poor if you put alcohol and cigarettes before other choices such as supporting your club. Certainly don't cite poor form as an excuse. Or not being able to buy the odd ticket. Or the ticketing "Fiasco". All membership money goes directly to the club. Buy a ticket at the gate and the Swans get bugger-all!

In my opinion of course.

Well put. Someone call an ambulance for the KO'd opinion. Only an opinion of course.

[ernie koala]

Now that I have answered your questions, are you game enough to answer mine?

Boy, that was a long, long-winded post, even by my impressive record of long, long-winded posts. BTW did I ever mention that I am really a Collingwood supporter? Go Pies!

I agree with one thing, your post was long winded.
I'll be brief...The point of my questions to you was to show, with all delusions aside, the Swans presently have an old list, that's treading water, as they slide down the ladder. And the timing of their demise coincides with years of compromised drafts, which will make the rebuild/ recovery longer and harder.
This situation could of, and should of, been avoided. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but the signs aren't good. Roos comments about the possible catastrophy of 2 Sydney teams at the bottom of the ladder, makes me think, he too sees the writing on the wall.

[dimelb]

I agree with one thing, your post was long winded.
I'll be brief...The point of my questions to you was to show, with all delusions aside, the Swans presently have an old list, that's treading water, as they slide down the ladder. And the timing of their demise coincides with years of compromised drafts, which will make the rebuild/ recovery longer and harder.
This situation could of, and should of, been avoided. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but the signs aren't good. Roos comments about the possible catastrophy of 2 Sydney teams at the bottom of the ladder, makes me think, he too sees the writing on the wall.
Ernie, I'll be brief too.
Who did we miss that we should have got?

[liz]

This situation could of, and should of, been avoided.


All you've done is whinge about the state of our list, without giving one single example of what you would have done differently.

It is easy to point out problems, but unless you can give a even single example of what might have been done differently to significantly change how you perceive the state of the list, within the constraints of drafting, trading, injuries, contracts, salary caps etc it is really just all hot air.

[Mike_B]

That was quick.. got a letter today offering a SCG 3 game Superpass for being a previous member but not renewing for 09.. awesome :D

I got one of these too - to my old address in Sydney. They obviously have a very fragmented membership database because I renewed my membership for this year, only now it's a Melbourne membership.

And they wonder why people (including members) are unimpressed - they have monkeys running the show (cf the membership card debacle).

[Bloody Hell]

I think you may have shot yourself in the foot! Everyone's criticising our drafting and the need to get high picks. BUT:

Kirk - Rookie List
O'Keefe - Pick 56
OI'Loughlin - Pick 40
Hall - Trade
Bolton - (Craig? - Preseason draft) On your list, only Jude Bolton (if he's the Bolton you mean) was a high draft pick - 8
+ Kennelly

My point wasn't where they came from, it's where are the people who are going to step up and fill the void when these guys retire/leave.

I don't care where they come from.

And my point ISN'T that we muffed up picks/trades/draft etc. It's that where we are now is a direct result of being competitive 3-6 years ago. I'm just glad we got 2 GF's and a Premiership out of that time. Other teams go throught the "window" with far less.

Where we are now is nothing compared with where we are going. We may even play finals this year.

I'll say it again - dark days ahead... I'll be there.

[Primmy]

This is just a thought.

Has it been since Steven Brassel left that the positive spin for the Swans tapered off? That whoever is selling the Swans at present has no idea?

Mind you it only took my first game Palm Sunday 1996 to sell it to me, but I am special.

Discuss. Not the special bit.

[CureTheSane]

And I want to add another thing which may or may not be well received.

How on earth are they going to maintain a solid Sydney fan base when they shift the huge event the Hall of Fame to Melbourne. I feel totally alienated by this.

We must be the laughing stock of Melbourne having a major event for the Sydney Swans held in another state 1000 ks away!

I thought we were the Sydney Swans. Have been for over 25 years. We are no longer the South Melbourne Swans. Are they thinking of shifting the club back down to Melbourne? I guess we just don't count any more.

I was a South Melbourne fan.
I constantly complain about my perceived alienation of us Melbourne based supporters by both the club and the AFL.
But I agree 100% with your statement.
Should be in Sydney.
The club seems to flip flop as it sees fit.

[CureTheSane]

This is definetley my last year after being a member for 14 years

Many factors - the renewal farce

The economy/cost

Sat afternoon games - should have been Friday night instead

Do not wan't to be committed to every game to get my money's worth

If I want I will just go on line and get a ticket whenever I want to go

There is a severe lack of promotion and marketing than in previous years

Seems the Swans are a reluctant to change the way they do things in areas such as marketing, game days etc as they are in changing the playing style.

[CureTheSane]

Real supporters stick whatever the circumstances. I've been a member for as long as I can remember and my team is located a thousand kilometers away. I travel three hours to every Victorian game. If I lived in Sydney I'd be at every game with bells on.

Seems the 'circumstances' of the move to Sydney have dictated that you 'didn't stick'
Your argument would imply that you aren't a real supporter as you don't attend every game because of distance.

[CureTheSane]

I'd suggest that the creation of passionate and loyal supporters is something that begins at school level.
Maybe the Swans have missed the mark here?
In 1925 I'm sure all the original clubs had a fairly large and decent following over their first 25 years.
People will complain about rugby etc, but then they will express their POV that AFL is easily the most exciting brand of football.
For whatever reason, success in the game hasn't brought a successful supporter base.
Maybe we won the flag 10 years too early, and that hunger hadn't fully developed within the Sydney market?
Maybe there is some kind of pent up resentment that the club originated in Melbourne?
Maybe NSW people are just generally a bit mentally challenged, and don't get the game?
Whatever the reason, seems changes need to be made in amny many areas.
I constantly lose faith in those who are in place to make the correct decisions - simply because they are not getting results.

[Beaussie]

And I want to add another thing which may or may not be well received.

How on earth are they going to maintain a solid Sydney fan base when they shift the huge event the Hall of Fame to Melbourne. I feel totally alienated by this.

We must be the laughing stock of Melbourne having a major event for the Sydney Swans held in another state 1000 ks away!

I thought we were the Sydney Swans. Have been for over 25 years. We are no longer the South Melbourne Swans. Are they thinking of shifting the club back down to Melbourne? I guess we just don't count any more.

Felt the same when I heard that too. What's more disappointing though is that when you visit the official website, the banner at the top is all about the Hall of Fame event in Melbourne. I would have thought our biggest game in Sydney for the season would have had priority via the website banner, at least for this week.

[Primmy]

Felt the same when I heard that too. What's more disappointing though is that when you visit the official website, the banner at the top is all about the Hall of Fame event in Melbourne. I would have thought our biggest game in Sydney for the season would have had priority via the website banner, at least for this week.

EXACTLY! I thought perhaps I was being a bit precious, but it would appear that I am not. Also noted is that the event is anything but a sellout. As I said before, the Sydney members were sold out.

[ernie koala]

All you've done is whinge about the state of our list, without giving one single example of what you would have done differently.

It is easy to point out problems, but unless you can give a even single example of what might have been done differently to significantly change how you perceive the state of the list, within the constraints of drafting, trading, injuries, contracts, salary caps etc it is really just all hot air.

It's even easier to wax lyrical knowing there will be plenty of pats on the back.
You want a single example..... They never should of traded a round 2 draft pick for Spida (a player I've always admired), given he was quite clearly reaching the end of his career.
There are countless others the Swans have kept/ contracted too long ....Matthews is a classic example of one year too many, Leo Barry is another, Crouch another, all have been wonderful servants of the club,
(Admittedly, I was never a fan of Matthews)....but hindsight shows their places on the list have been wasted, mainly due to age related fitness problems. Barry an old dodgy knee, Crouch wear and tear, Mathews lost what form he ever had. As I said earlier it's just stating the obvious in hindsight. Whether a young rookie would of made anything of one of these places on the list we'll never know. What I do know, and everybody has known for a few years, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder over the next 3-4 years with severely compromised drafts.

[Yakety_Yak]

It's even easier to wax lyrical knowing there will be plenty of pats on the back.
You want a single example..... They never should of traded a round 2 draft pick for Spida (a player I've always admired), given he was quite clearly reaching the end of his career.
There are countless others the Swans have kept/ contracted too long ....Matthews is a classic example of one year too many, Leo Barry is another, Crouch another, all have been wonderful servants of the club,
(Admittedly, I was never a fan of Matthews)....but hindsight shows their places on the list have been wasted, mainly due to age related fitness problems. Barry an old dodgy knee, Crouch wear and tear, Mathews lost what form he ever had. As I said earlier it's just stating the obvious in hindsight. Whether a young rookie would of made anything of one of these places on the list we'll never know. What I do know, and everybody has known for a few years, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder over the next 3-4 years with severely compromised drafts.


Spida: May not have been a ideal choice but with Jason Ball retiring and coming off back to back GF's.. who would have Swans played in the 2nd ruck? (young skinny Erikson?)
Which other ruckman was available? (What had Tigers given for Simmonds or what was the later price on Warnocks trade..... for example?)

Matthews Barry Crouch: It may have escaped your attention but the recruit draftees learn in the reserves! The rules have changed and made them less competive against bigger bodies. They learn better if there is a aging older player or two in there to help development.

Few draft choices have bodies capable of seniors until 21soreally it was the drafts whilst Swans were 14th 16th and 15th pick...and despite that they have Vezspremi Meredith Hannebery Bird Jack White Smith Currie Orreal..

NOT BAD considering!!!... but ErnieK, I gather you would have made much wiser choices? :rolleyes:

[ernie koala]

Few draft choices have bodies capable of seniors until 21soreally it was the drafts whilst Swans were 14th 16th and 15th pick...and despite that they have Vezspremi Meredith Hannebery Bird Jack White Smith Currie Orreal..

NOT BAD considering!!!... but ErnieK, I gather you would have made much wiser choices? :rolleyes:

This isn't a debate about who they should of or shouldn't of picked.:rolleyes: It's about the general direction the Swans have taken over the last few years, in a bid to remain competative, and not to go down to the bottom half of the ladder. ie Retain older players, play and draft a minimal amount of young players. This philosophy has worked for the last 2 years....the problem is we are now heading to the bottom half of the ladder anyway, with a number of imminent retirements coinciding with severely compromised drafts.

[connolly]

Spida: May not have been a ideal choice but with Jason Ball retiring and coming off back to back GF's.. who would have Swans played in the 2nd ruck? (young skinny Erikson?)
Which other ruckman was available? (What had Tigers given for Simmonds or what was the later price on Warnocks trade..... for example?)

Matthews Barry Crouch: It may have escaped your attention but the recruit draftees learn in the reserves! The rules have changed and made them less competive against bigger bodies. They learn better if there is a aging older player or two in there to help development.

Few draft choices have bodies capable of seniors until 21soreally it was the drafts whilst Swans were 14th 16th and 15th pick...and despite that they have Vezspremi Meredith Hannebery Bird Jack White Smith Currie Orreal..

NOT BAD considering!!!... but ErnieK, I gather you would have made much wiser choices? :rolleyes:

We have a bunch of promising kids that have been parked in the ACT comp for two seasons. In which they learn not to live in Canberra and that park footballers are easy to beat. What on earth is Crouch teaching anyone at the moment by tagging and playing his usual negative brand of individual footy? Is Leo passing on some wisdom from the MBA? Promising young footballers learn from the intensity of seniors football and from their opponents. The club has made a serious miscalculation with the nonsense that we could have been a serious finals contender this year. The rebuilding should have started at the beginning of the season. Ans with the retirement of Barry and Crouch. And the blooding of some really good kids.

[rojo]

To my way of thinking it is too late. How is it that our key forward and enforcer is closing in on retirement and his only suitable gun replacement is an 18 year old? Why did Peter Faulks play at full back most of last year in the reserves and then get given the flick. I don't know if he was any good (only as posted on RWO) but my point is that like a few others I am mystified as to why no young KPP's have been targetted and developed. As with Spida - there was no one trained up and waiting in the wings ready to come in to support Jolly.
I know players need to be versatile these days but it must be really hard for the young 19, 20, 21 year olds to gain confidence, especially in the seniors, when they are asked to play anywhere regardless of the position they have played for most of their junior days, and its usually for 5 or 10 mins. to give someone like Goodes or ROK a break. I often wonder if EB seems to float around not knowing what he is supposed to be doing, because he doesn't. Like Grundy doesn't know whether he is coming or going and maybe White too. Its all seems very strange.