Rhino, Jude and those head knocks

[Blood]

Was thinking to myself shortly after the game "i don't think i've seen these two look so lethargic and out of sorts".

I mean, we're getting smashed at the centre clearances and these guys just happen to be getting less possies and their impact is well down ever since the Lions game. Not sure stats wise but that's the way it looks to me anyway.

Wonder if they are still feeling the effects of those head knocks/concussion? Surely our medical staff would know...

[old blood]

Was thinking to myself shortly after the game "i don't think i've seen these two look so lethargic and out of sorts".

I mean, we're getting smashed at the centre clearances and these guys just happen to be getting less possies and their impact is well down ever since the Lions game. Not sure stats wise but that's the way it looks to me anyway.

Wonder if they are still feeling the effects of those head knocks/concussion? Surely our medical staff would know...

You're absolutely spot on. You may remember Jordan Lewis saying a few weeks back that he regretted continuing to play after suffering concussion. I don't know if its too late to rest Ryan and Jude now, but I hope we don't make the same mistake with Kennedy.

[ernie koala]

Was thinking to myself shortly after the game "i don't think i've seen these two look so lethargic and out of sorts".

I mean, we're getting smashed at the centre clearances and these guys just happen to be getting less possies and their impact is well down ever since the Lions game. Not sure stats wise but that's the way it looks to me anyway.

Wonder if they are still feeling the effects of those head knocks/concussion? Surely our medical staff would know...

It's certainly no coincidence. From what I've read, heavy concussion in any high intensity sport, almost always results in below par performances in the following weeks. In the NFL players who are knocked out have atleast 1-2 weeks off mandatory, to recover. IMO They should of been rested.

[sWAns63]

Some of those midfielders need two weeks off between games

[Hartijon]

You're absolutely spot on. You may remember Jordan Lewis saying a few weeks back that he regretted continuing to play after suffering concussion. I don't know if its too late to rest Ryan and Jude now, but I hope we don't make the same mistake with Kennedy.


You worry about their form but what about their welfare? They must be seriously compromised to suffer such a form reversal. Quite irresponsible of the club to play them. Nothing quite as disgusting as Tadgh getting his shoulder popped in every week. Compare the Swans to Melbourne who rested their two young stars against Geelong. Smart work! Player welfare despite the money being paid,must come first.

[sWAns63]

It would work on two fronts rest a couple old nuts for a game who are getting battered each week and give youngsters some much needed game time

[Blood]

I alluded to their welfare when i mentioned the medical staff. It goes without saying that they should not be on the park if there is the slightest doubt over their fitness and health. And most on here were (rightly) calling for a sluggish craig Bolton to be rested - the week before his injury against the eagles. It's not like we want them playing at all costs. the whole thing makes me question the ability of our medical staff to be honest.

FWIW, if there is nothing physically wrong with ROK, i'd move him back into the half forward line and bring Rohan into the midfield. It'd give ROK a bit of a rest and our centre clearance work and midfield in general a major boost.

[Blood]

It would work on two fronts rest a couple old nuts for a game who are getting battered each week and give youngsters some much needed game time

Yes, a win-win of sorts.

But top priority is obviously their health and welfare.

[sWAns63]

I've always been of the opinion that you need to freshen players up for the team as well as their own health and to further extend their careers

[swansrock4eva]

It's certainly no coincidence. From what I've read, heavy concussion in any high intensity sport, almost always results in below par performances in the following weeks. In the NFL players who are knocked out have atleast 1-2 weeks off mandatory, to recover. IMO They should of been rested.

The biggest problem with any sort of head hit in contact ball-sport is that there is a) no scientific correlation between the size of the hit and the presence/severity/length of the concussion; b) no correlation between the initial severity of symptom presentation and length of time for duration of symptoms, and; c) no definitive test that can rule a player in or out at any time following a concussion. There is anecdotal evidence through one-off examples, but no actual medical evidence to back it up. Whether we like it or no, concussions are one of medicine's enigmas at this point in time. Without the science behind it, you're asking the medical staff to say "Ok you're not playing because you MIGHT still be affected" - while we currently see players going "In hindsight maybe I shouldn't have played on/the next game" but once you stop players who probably are ok from playing "just in case," you will start seeing players going "Yeah I could have played, but the docs said no. That might have been the 2-point difference in the match" and then we'd all be up in arms because the medicos stopped a fit player from playing. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't realy.

[sWAns63]

Surely the doc can order them to wear headgear as a precaution for one week if they don't then oust them for a week if they ditch the head gear during the game and get concussed again then enforce the week ban at least you're making some effort to protect the player.

[giant]

Was intending to start exactly this thread. 100% agree these boys have been well off the pace since the Brissie game. Who can recall ROK dropping as many marks as he did on the weekend? And Jude is tackling as passionately as ever but his decision making is just that little bit off, crucial to an inside mid. I think Jordan Lewis referred to just this after his huge hit earlier this year.

Would be very happy for the club to give them a few weeks to get their health together.

[Jesse Richards]

SECOND IMPACT SYNDROME: Sports Confront Consequences of Concussions - page 2 | USA Today (Society for the Advancement of Education) (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2660_128/ai_62590578/pg_2/?tag=content;col1)

The American Academy of Neurology and the Brain Injury Association have issued recommendations for return to play. The guidelines divide concussions into three types:
Grade I: No loss of consciousness; transient confusion; mental status abnormalities last less than 15 minutes. The athlete may play again that day if symptoms resolve within 15 minutes.
Grade II: No loss of consciousness; transient confusion; mental status abnormalities last more than 15 minutes. The athlete can play again only after he or she has been symptom-free for a full week.
Grade III: Any loss of consciousness, either for brief seconds or prolonged. An athlete who is unconscious for just a few seconds can resume play after a full week of no symptoms. If the loss of consciousness lasts several minutes or more, the waiting period is at least two weeks.

[sWAns63]

Thanks for that, they should also probably take it easy at training during the week

[rojo]

SECOND IMPACT SYNDROME: Sports Confront Consequences of Concussions - page 2 | USA Today (Society for the Advancement of Education) (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2660_128/ai_62590578/pg_2/?tag=content;col1)

The American Academy of Neurology and the Brain Injury Association have issued recommendations for return to play. The guidelines divide concussions into three types:
Grade I: No loss of consciousness; transient confusion; mental status abnormalities last less than 15 minutes. The athlete may play again that day if symptoms resolve within 15 minutes.
Grade II: No loss of consciousness; transient confusion; mental status abnormalities last more than 15 minutes. The athlete can play again only after he or she has been symptom-free for a full week.
Grade III: Any loss of consciousness, either for brief seconds or prolonged. An athlete who is unconscious for just a few seconds can resume play after a full week of no symptoms. If the loss of consciousness lasts several minutes or more, the waiting period is at least two weeks.

So, taking the above recommendations into account plus the AFL guidelines, it was perfectly okay for Jude to return to the field after his first knock to the head v. Brisbane, and perfectly okay for both he and ROK to play the next week after being concussed. Which means that it is purely co-incidental that Jude, ROK and also Jordan Lewis have not been playing to their previous form ever since!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a bit ironic for someone to now suggest Jude be dropped due to poor form, too slow, too old etc. Like everyone else, I hope they all get back to their best soon.

[sWAns63]

Not dropped.......... a rest

[rojo]

Not dropped.......... a rest

I know, I was just being sarcastic in my previous post. I was one of the ones who shouted into cyberspace, please, please force Jude to rest this week (week after the Brissy game). But no one out there was listening!

[lwoggardner]

I think we've got this all wrong. If I look at the 2005 finals series and the game earlier this year Jude in particular played brilliantly AFTER he was concussed.

So if we are concerned with on-field performance the obvious solution is to give the boys a whack in the head coming up the race, pop the helmet on and she'll be apples.

Of course if we are worried about their welfare then perhaps we should just give them a week off.

[Nich]

On the flipside, maybe the Cheese needs a bout of concussion to get himself back on track.

[Big Al]

I have a wild suggestion. Could it be they're just out of form. I know we like to attribute reasons for things happening but sometimes it's just a simple case of blokes not playing well at the moment.

[dimelb]

I think we've got this all wrong. If I look at the 2005 finals series and the game earlier this year Jude in particular played brilliantly AFTER he was concussed.

So if we are concerned with on-field performance the obvious solution is to give the boys a whack in the head coming up the race, pop the helmet on and she'll be apples.

Of course if we are worried about their welfare then perhaps we should just give them a week off.
I'm reminded of the English soccer coach, I think Alex Ferguson, who was told one of his players was concussed and didn't know who he was. His reply: tell him he's Pele and send him on.

[aardvark]

I have a wild suggestion. Could it be they're just out of form. I know we like to attribute reasons for things happening but sometimes it's just a simple case of blokes not playing well at the moment.

Hey Al thats just not fair using common sense on here. I got a head knock in 1972, Haven't been the same since so its obviously the problem.

[mcs]

On the flipside, maybe the Cheese needs a bout of concussion to get himself back on track.

Sadly I think it would take more than a single bout of concussion to get Cheese back on track.

[Jesse Richards]

So, taking the above recommendations into account plus the AFL guidelines, it was perfectly okay for Jude to return to the field after his first knock to the head v. Brisbane, and perfectly okay for both he and ROK to play the next week after being concussed. Which means that it is purely co-incidental that Jude, ROK and also Jordan Lewis have not been playing to their previous form ever since!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a bit ironic for someone to now suggest Jude be dropped due to poor form, too slow, too old etc. Like everyone else, I hope they all get back to their best soon.

That's one interpretation. But
1) We do not know that Kennelly, ROK and Jude were symptom free during the week after
2) If their poor performance since the concussions is regarded as symptomatic of the concussions then they shouldn't play next week and not until they are back to their usual form - if they can ever recover it - and their injury is not long term. Nor should they have played the following week. Blind Freddy could see that ROK could not kick straight, fumbled and was not himself. Nor did Jude look right, though he did tackle.

I could go on about Hall exhibiting similar symptoms last year - and brain snaps can be a result of head trauma - he was into boxing, as we know. The other factor rarely mentioned in sporting circles, but is in the medical literature, is the risk of even mild alcohol use in the weeks following the concussion = increased risk of internal bleeding in the brain. Alcohol is a known vaso-dilator.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jude and ROK are still suffering from the effects of their concussion.

[liz]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jude and ROK are still suffering from the effects of their concussion.

How can there be no doubt when you have zero access to information about their actual - as opposed to perceived - physical condition? It is just as plausible that they are suffering other physical soreness unrelated to the head issues. ROK has taken 4 (at least) significant "hits" to his body in the last month, each of which might be causing him discomfort.

Or as Big Al points out, maybe they are just a bit down on form.

[Jesse Richards]

I repeat, there is no doubt IN MY MIND. This is my opinion. That's why I worded it that way. Of course there may be other contributing factors. But, I repeat, again, there is no doubt in my mind that Jude and ROK are still suffering from the effects of their concussion. The extent is debatable.

[Big Al]

I repeat, there is no doubt IN MY MIND. This is my opinion. That's why I worded it that way. Of course there may be other contributing factors. But, I repeat, again, there is no doubt in my mind that Jude and ROK are still suffering from the effects of their concussion. The extent is debatable.

What concerns me with this is that your basically saying that our medical staff are being negligent with our players. If a guy of Nathan Gibbs experience and integrity clears these players then that's enough for me. For you to say that you have no doubt when you aren't their doctor and do not have access to all the facts is just plain stubborn.

[Big Al]

Hey Al thats just not fair using common sense on here. I got a head knock in 1972, Haven't been the same since so its obviously the problem.

LOL... You know I got concussion the day before I joined RWO. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

[Big Al]

Sadly I think it would take more than a single bout of concussion to get Cheese back on track.

Wrong part of the anatomy mcs, Cheese just needs a good kick up the ....

[RogueSwan]

Surely the doc can order them to wear headgear as a precaution for one week if they don't then oust them for a week if they ditch the head gear during the game and get concussed again then enforce the week ban at least you're making some effort to protect the player.

I don't think head gear actually protects the brain. The brain is still free to bang against the inside of the skull, head gear or not.
Head gear probably really only protects the skull and gives the player a bit more confidence to put their head over the ball.

[Jesse Richards]

What concerns me with this is that your basically saying that our medical staff are being negligent with our players. If a guy of Nathan Gibbs experience and integrity clears these players then that's enough for me. For you to say that you have no doubt when you aren't their doctor and do not have access to all the facts is just plain stubborn.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong. Regardless of their form I hope that Jude and ROK will suffer no long lasting effects. And, stubbornly (thanks for the compliment Big Al - I am rarely called stubborn) there is still no doubt in my mind that they are still suffering from those concussions. And I must be wrong because Nathan Gibbs et al have cleared them to play. :o

[rojo]

Well I just hope that their drop in form is unrelated to their being concussed because if it is concussion related it is a bit of a worry that after 4 weeks they haven't bounced back. I am with you JR but the Swans' doctor was correctly following current AFL guidelines. At least when concern was raised in the media about Jordan Lewis and Jude playing on after being concussed, the AFL announced that they will review their guidelines re this.

[BSA5]

I repeat, there is no doubt IN MY MIND. This is my opinion. That's why I worded it that way. Of course there may be other contributing factors. But, I repeat, again, there is no doubt in my mind that Jude and ROK are still suffering from the effects of their concussion. The extent is debatable.

Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it a good one. It always annoys me how people defend their opinions by saying "it's my opinion". Some opinions are a matter of taste. Those can't be wrong or right (to an extent, I still think anybody who likes Ke$ha should be shot), but other opinions should be based on sense, and if they aren't based on sense, then they are misguided.

Now, ROK and Jude have both been in poor form recently, and the start of this coincided roughly with some heavy knocks to the head. However, both have received plenty of other physical punishment this year, and the structure of the team has changed significantly over this period. To me, ROK in particular looks more like he's struggling with a groin/leg complaint. He has lost a bit of speed and mobility, and his kicking action looks mechanical and forced. Both Jude and ROK have found their traditional role in the side replaced somewhat by the emergence of Hanners and arrival of Kennedy, as well as McVeigh developing his inside game (second for us in clearances this year, at 4.7 per game) and Jack rotating through the middle and half-forward. This could be why Jude and ROK have been pushed forward. It could be a combination of all of the above. The point is, it is far from clear that these head knocks have affected their game. It might have, it's certainly a possibility, but to have "no doubt" is absolutely ridiculous. To be perfectly honest, you have no idea. Neither do I. Neither do any of us. All we can do is make educated guesses.

My educated guess is that ROK and Jude have had a bit of a rough time, including, and perhaps started by, but far from limited to their head knocks, and this, combined with other players being able to step into their role and play it well, has meant that Roos has let them rest for long periods of time in the forwardline, where they are not quite comfortable, but can still contribute without demanding too much of them. This is to the detriment of their personal games (and my SuperCoach), but to the overall benefit of the team. I say this with quite a great deal of doubt, but it seems to be the most likely scenario.

THAT is an opinion (in my opinion). ;)