Our Forward structure

[Hartijon]

What is it? Our midfielders sometimes come under criticism for not hitting targets in the forwards but running into the Swans forward 50 must be a real lottery as to who you will have in front of you. Will Reid be there or up around the centre? Goodes? Pyke? (not for 4 weeks now) or will the Gopher pop up.Then there might be Jude, ROK,Everitt or runningplayers like Moore,MacVeigh. Each one would require a slightly different delivery.You don't want to kick it too high to the Gopher but a high ball would favour Reid's marking ability.
Our defense is solid and well structured,our forwards are unstructured. In that situation a long bomb is sometimes the best option. Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me and against Geelong it dissappeared altogether.

[Mr Magoo]

I dont know if that excuses the midfielders from not hitting a swans jumper though.

One of the problems I think is that the players who are playing forward dont seem to be leading to the right places or in many instances leading at all. The constant tactic seems to be to try to get in behind the defence rather than leading out from it. While this may work on a fast break out of defence it is not a strategy to rely on.

Being the play maker (rather than the play reader as a backman generally is) is a far different skill set and the reason why the converts seem to always start up back.

In my opinion at the moment we lack in two areas up forward :
1. We just dont seem to have anyone that fits into that dominating leading forward goalkicker role (Jesse should but he doesnt and Sam Reid to me leads too far up the ground to have much effect on the scoreboard.)
2. We dont have any real goalkicking crumbing forwards. McGlynn is more of a midfielder that sneaks forward rather than a small crumbing forward.

By not having either position filled properly, we lose out in that our big forwards dont lead and kick goals and when they choose to contest in a pack (as they seem to ) then we have no one with the nouse to crumb and kick goals.

[Mountain Man]

I agree entirely with these comments - surely there should be a Plan A that can be worked on in training.

[dimelb]

The dynamic duo Mummy 'n' Mike have started to provide the basis of a structure; perhaps Seaby can slot into that frame. Everitt looks like a lead and mark player, reasonable pace, good hands, good kick. The crumber we need could be TDL when he's there, or McGlynn or Moore on rotation. Goodes and ROK obviously are targets when they play forward, and I'd prefer to see ROK to keep running and creating rather than tagging. Reid is a real find and I think at this stage simply needs to make the most of his experience.
In other words the ingredients are all there, but we need to be better organised, which may happen if Moore takes up more of the role of onfield forward coach. Having said that, I'd like to know what the off-field forward coach is doing.
And we could confuse the hell out of the opposition by playing LRT forward ...

[Mr Magoo]

The dynamic duo Mummy 'n' Mike have started to provide the basis of a structure; perhaps Seaby can slot into that frame. Everitt looks like a lead and mark player, reasonable pace, good hands, good kick. The crumber we need could be TDL when he's there, or McGlynn or Moore on rotation. Goodes and ROK obviously are targets when they play forward, and I'd prefer to see ROK to keep running and creating rather than tagging. Reid is a real find and I think at this stage simply needs to make the most of his experience.
In other words the ingredients are all there, but we need to be better organised, which may happen if Moore takes up more of the role of onfield forward coach. Having said that, I'd like to know what the off-field forward coach is doing.
And we could confuse the hell out of the opposition by playing LRT forward ...

I think Alex Johnson also played his junior football at CHF didnt he. Surely he could be worth throwing up there if he is a natural forward and with an opponent like Port coming up even LJ is worth giving a chance to isnt he? We must have some natural forwards on out list.

[aardvark]

I think Alex Johnson also played his junior football at CHF didnt he. Surely he could be worth throwing up there if he is a natural forward and with an opponent like Port coming up even LJ is worth giving a chance to isnt he? We must have some natural forwards on out list.

A major part of the problem is we keep throwing people up there with no thought to structure or how it will work.

[Triple B]

A major part of the problem is we keep throwing people up there with no thought to structure or how it will work.

This/that ^^^

[liz]

A major part of the problem is we keep throwing people up there with no thought to structure or how it will work.


This/that ^^^

Or that the personnel available to Longmire / Blakey are either too inexperienced or not good enough to work within whatever structure they are trying to set up.

It seems that Goodes has been now denominated a midfielder who sometimes goes forward, rather than a forward who sometimes gets a run on the ball. Realistically he is our only obvious candidate to provide a bit more structure to the forward line. But do people want the team to make that sacrifice, especially with Jack unavailable?

[Bexl]

Reid has not been the goal kicker that we want yet so that puts us 1 player down on the forward line. I hope he gets better soon.

[aardvark]

With the exception of Reid and maybe McGlynn we don't have anyone in the team ATM who plays as a permanent forward. Collingwood and Geelong both have 2 Big strong KP forwards who are great targets, can take a strong mark and are fairly reliable shots for goal. They play there the whole game so their mids know where and how to deliver the ball and their small forwards can anticipate where to crumb or where there is space they can play in. The point being they have settled forward lines that can function together to create scoring opportunities.
I hate to say it but its time we gave up on the idea of Braddy coming back and settled on a FF who can give us a focal point. Rotating our Key forwards into the ruck and small forwards into the Midfield all the time just doesn't work and as Collingwood and Geelong have shown its not the best way to develop a functional forward line.

[Hartijon]

With the exception of Reid and maybe McGlynn we don't have anyone in the team ATM who plays as a permanent forward. Collingwood and Geelong both have 2 Big strong KP forwards who are great targets, can take a strong mark and are fairly reliable shots for goal. They play there the whole game so their mids know where and how to deliver the ball and their small forwards can anticipate where to crumb or where there is space they can play in. The point being they have settled forward lines that can function together to create scoring opportunities.
I hate to say it but its time we gave up on the idea of Braddy coming back and settled on a FF who can give us a focal point. Rotating our Key forwards into the ruck and small forwards into the Midfield all the time just doesn't work and as Collingwood and Geelong have shown its not the best way to develop a functional forward line.

Amen! Its time to settle the forward line if we want to go Top 4. Ummm how do we do that?

[Auntie.Gerald]

I think Horse is aware hence if we are aiming to peak in 2012 and also give 2011 a shot he needs to keep bringing thru the forwards .................he has stated that several times and we have seen Goodes head more into the midfield anyway.........Everitt up forward.......seems ok now and Mike............Mummy...........

I reckon as coach he would have been hanging on Braddy to play 2010, 2011 and maybe 2012 and we would have been fine..............but the cookie hasnt crumbled for us and we have had to fast track players who maybe could have done with another year in Ressies

[Auntie.Gerald]

PS Pies without Dawes or Cloke would be down a notch also..........we have done with out Braddy considering....................probably beyond my expectation................I still remember us all so bloody desperate when we were crying out for a FF when Baz left................Braddy looked the solution...........but alas !!

[Mountain Man]

I echo most of the comments here.

I would like to see some STRUCTURE to the forwards, rather than wish for the personnel to be different, or more skilled or more experienced. Only then can the midfield be given training drills, and be held to account for bad delivery during a game. In this age of everything being a "process", I am staggered we are so far into the season with no apparent Plan A.

I contrast how the back 6 seem to play together. We have had plenty of 'outs' with injuries, but we don't circulate people wildly through the backs from game to game, or during a game.

[GongSwan]

I echo most of the comments here.

I would like to see some STRUCTURE to the forwards, rather than wish for the personnel to be different, or more skilled or more experienced. Only then can the midfield be given training drills, and be held to account for bad delivery during a game. In this age of everything being a "process", I am staggered we are so far into the season with no apparent Plan A.

I contrast how the back 6 seem to play together. We have had plenty of 'outs' with injuries, but we don't circulate people wildly through the backs from game to game, or during a game.

Agree with this and believe that the forward line was to be structured around Jesse, who has not made the progress hoped for. Leaves a dilemma for the coaches. Two talls and a leading forward with crumbers like McGlynn, and TDL altho from reports his form isn't all that ATM. A stable back 6 means rotating yr midfield thru the forward line, especially down to 3 interchange players, they have to spend more time on the ground, you can see the players are spent in the last q, looking at Teddy last week for example, in contrast to White's games where he looks like he could go again. I doubt we'll peak next year, Reid Johnson, and the other young blokes need to fill out and run out games better, Reid looks good but a bit fragile against mature bodies. Granted in 2013 we might have a few 30 y olds, but the newer guys will be much better, well hopefully, and this will give us the chance to move up the ladder, if only we could find a 23 yo Goodes

[Peace]

need. bradshaw. now.

[Hartijon]

Mick Malthouse (Collingwood)
?We lost our structure. When you lose your structure in today's football, you lose control of your own destiny, and it was all played in Geelong's front half.?

This could easily be a comment on our last two games!

Same thing happened to us against Geelong and the Blues.The game then depends on random quick kicks and can swing either way.With a proper forward structure,we would be a force to be reckoned with and be able to bury the opposition.Bradshaw would be one answer but its not going to happen.Goodes is a part time answer.Reid is not quite there yet.We need to invent a forward structure post White .A proper forward line with players that can actually kick goals from set shots and we are top 4 and challenging for higher. Our backline is great and settled.I would like to see TDL and even LJ in the mix for this and a tall ruckman for FF
Ideas?

[Slade]

Structure is definitely one thing we need but I believe what we need more is the ability to kick to our forwards advantage. So many times last week we kicked to their feet, over their heads to the side and to their opponents. Must be discouraging leading up and seeing the ball going anywhere but where you want it. We would have thrashed the Bulldogs if we kicked to our forwards.

[Hartijon]

Having a makeshift forward structure meant today's result was inevitable. Just putting guys like LRT who are big and can mark is not the answer.When they finally get a shot they often miss.We need true natural forwards like TDL for example. Stopping the opposition scoring doesn't win you a game unless you score more than they do.To do this you must have a forward line with players who can kick a goal. Take Hawthorn as a classic example.

The shocking delivery to the forward line can partly explained by the fact that the players have no idea who they will be kicking to. Without a forward structure the team cannot be drilled into where and how to deliver the ball and must make it up as they go.
Today the backline had a day off.Shaws delivery was atrocious,Matty could not pick the ball up and Grundy was delivering as badly as he has all year. By all means play the kids but when you have potential experienced forward players like TDL and Seaby playing in reserves and you don't use them you deserve to lose. The players give it a lot,its time for the coaches and game planners and selectors to match the effort of the players.

[mcs]

Why do we do rubbish like we did with LRT up forward today. Lets pick a damn forward line and stick with it. TDL has to be part of it, and a 2nd ruckmen should be in the team to help out as well. We have no idea how we are trying to get the ball forward most of the time as we have no idea what our forward line is or how it is trying to score goals. Infuriating to say the least!

[Captain]

I have said it before, Bevan and TDL need to be in the team and in the forward line.

[Rob-bloods]

There are surely two points here structure and players. If you have a 'forward structure' which is basically just a plan, then you can change the personnel around. I do not detect a forward structure at all and that is the real concern. Add to that an inability to hit targets around the ground even when not under pressure then we are going to have a frustrating year I'll wager.

[chalbilto]

Having a makeshift forward structure meant today's result was inevitable. Just putting guys like LRT who are big and can mark is not the answer.When they finally get a shot they often miss.We need true natural forwards like TDL for example. Stopping the opposition scoring doesn't win you a game unless you score more than they do.To do this you must have a forward line with players who can kick a goal. Take Hawthorn as a classic example.

The shocking delivery to the forward line can partly explained by the fact that the players have no idea who they will be kicking to. Without a forward structure the team cannot be drilled into where and how to deliver the ball and must make it up as they go.
Today the backline had a day off.Shaws delivery was atrocious,Matty could not pick the ball up and Grundy was delivering as badly as he has all year. By all means play the kids but when you have potential experienced forward players like TDL and Seaby playing in reserves and you don't use them you deserve to lose. The players give it a lot,its time for the coaches and game planners and selectors to match the effort of the players.

The organizing of the forwards was effectivly done by Jared Moore. Statistics show that the team had a higher percentage of wins when he played. As the coaching staff have noted in the post match reviews, how much he actually influences the team structures.

[Old Royboy]

At present there is no forward structure - I am surprised this thread received any replies.

[swansrule100]

is there any way our forward line could be better with the cattle we have available? my answer yes, Dennis Lane has to play. He is a goal kicker. Apart from that its young inexperienced and learning to work together. The delivery is also rubbish at times. We just didnt have the ball today.

We lack consistency in our targets too, lets give a forward line a run together for a few weeks, not chop and change key targets

[Cheer Squad]

We're in genuinely uncharted waters now as far as our forward structure goes.

For the first substantial period of time since the recruitment of Lockett in the 90s, and the departure of Hall in 2009, we don't have a big name target up front.

It's easy to understand why the club jumped on Bradshaw when he unexpectedly became available at the end of 2009, but he's basically been unavailable for most of the time due to injury. Even with a near-miraculous recovery to his latest surgery, the clock is ticking down rapidly on his career.

White has not worked out as planned. There doesn't seem to be anyone else on the list we can develop in the short term.

If we want a power forward, we're going to have to trade for it, as we have in the past.

Who's going to be our next Tony Lockett or Barry Hall? Who would we be prepared to trade to obtain another match-winner like them? It would need to be for someone who could make a career out of their time with us.

[Ratna]

While it is not an option at the moment (until he returns) I think Pyke should be put forward when he returns. He gives 100%, is not scared to make a contest, can take a mark and pressures the opposition. It's not the complete answer but in the short term may be part of the puzzle

[robamiee]

Isn't Lewis Johnston or Campbell Heath suppose to be the potential development forward....
But we clearly lack a big bodied forward coming out of the goal square and whenh you think about it the swans hjave always played with a power forward....But we need ot get some structure in there...TDL has to come back in the side....

[Hartijon]

We're in genuinely uncharted waters now as far as our forward structure goes.

For the first substantial period of time since the recruitment of Lockett in the 90s, and the departure of Hall in 2009, we don't have a big name target up front.

It's easy to understand why the club jumped on Bradshaw when he unexpectedly became available at the end of 2009, but he's basically been unavailable for most of the time due to injury. Even with a near-miraculous recovery to his latest surgery, the clock is ticking down rapidly on his career.

White has not worked out as planned. There doesn't seem to be anyone else on the list we can develop in the short term.

If we want a power forward, we're going to have to trade for it, as we have in the past.

Who's going to be our next Tony Lockett or Barry Hall? Who would we be prepared to trade to obtain another match-winner like them? It would need to be for someone who could make a career out of their time with us.

I agree with what you are saying, but we need urgent action for this season too and a safety just in case that match winning forward that nobody wants can't be found.Everytime someone says this I think of Fevola and his wasted talent. What about trying Mike Pyke.He has exceeded all expectations so far.After 5 or so games he might be a servicable Full forward.He has height, speed ,marking and kicking skills,is used to handballing off and can tackle.

[Cheer Squad]

I agree with what you are saying, but we need urgent action for this season too and a safety just in case that match winning forward that nobody wants can't be found.Everytime someone says this I think of Fevola and his wasted talent. What about trying Mike Pyke.He has exceeded all expectations so far.After 5 or so games he might be a servicable Full forward.He has height, speed ,marking and kicking skills,is used to handballing off and can tackle.

I don't really have an opinion about Pyke one way or the other. He's competent but not outstanding.

But you're certainly right about needing a "Plan B" in case we can't secure the services of a suitable "Plan A".

I think that whatever his limitations, we may as well put White as full forward, and build the rest of the forward set up around him. And put LRT at fullback, and build the rest of the defence around him.

Whatever we decide, we have to stick with it. There's no way we'll get anywhere this year with a perpetually disrupted structure. We don't have the personnel for it.

As for "Plan A", who's going to be our next big "personality", who'll not only kick a bag of goals, but help us with our marketing? Especially if Folau works as a full forward for GWS?

[neilfws]

Just browsing the stats from the Hawks game. Depressing across the board but a couple really jump out.

Clearances: 36 each. Inside 50s: 49 to the Hawks 51. Yet they were 8 goals to the good. I think that's a good summary of our forward issues.

[liz]

Just browsing the stats from the Hawks game. Depressing across the board but a couple really jump out.

Clearances: 36 each. Inside 50s: 49 to the Hawks 51. Yet they were 8 goals to the good. I think that's a good summary of our forward issues.

Including lots of eminently gettable behinds, which makes things worse.

I reckon raw inside 50 counts is, together with ruck hit-outs, one of the most useless stats.

[Wardy]

At present there is no forward structure - I am surprised this thread received any replies.

I'm sure we could find something to help build a forward structure at Bunnings! I agree ORB - we dont have one and thats it. I fear that the North game will be a nightmare - kind of glad I'm going out for lunch instead of watching it.

[neilfws]

I reckon raw inside 50 counts is, together with ruck hit-outs, one of the most useless stats.

Totally agree with you on hit-outs! "What happened next?" is always my question.

Stats are often meaningless and frequently abused (I know, I work for CSIRO's stats division!). I think inside-50 combined with scoring shots or goals is at least some indication of conversion.

[ugg]

A better stat is inside fifty conversion ie the percentage of inside
fifties that result in a goal. We are near the bottom end in this regard. Conversely, our opponents also find it hard to convert their inside fifties against our defence

[Swanner]

lots of good comments here, the main issue though is our forwards play far too much up the ground. I sit in the bradman and for all three losses the problem was obvious - no target up forward as they were way up the ground and we tried to hit targets running backwards towards goal - basically a lottery.

Between Reid, White, Lewis Johnston, Pyke, Seaby, Moore, Goodes, O'Keefe, McGlynn and TDL we have a very good forward line - we just have bad coaches who think the only way to win football games is to stack the midfield. It may be an unfair comparison but even Roos maintained a forward line (he did have Hall). The problem is not the cattle its the coaching staff. I predict our non-structure will work against North, brisbane etc and everyone will say its no problem - then we will play carlton,collingwood in a months time and get found out again - they need to change the game plan and use the fact we have an easy month to get our forward structure right - if we don't welcome to mid table medicority for the next few years.

[blinddog]

The potential issue I have with TDL is that these days so much of the game is keeping the ball in the forward 50. So for those that have been watching the reserves how has the defensive side of his game been.

[Hartijon]

lots of good comments here, the main issue though is our forwards play far too much up the ground. I sit in the bradman and for all three losses the problem was obvious - no target up forward as they were way up the ground and we tried to hit targets running backwards towards goal - basically a lottery.

Between Reid, White, Lewis Johnston, Pyke, Seaby, Moore, Goodes, O'Keefe, McGlynn and TDL we have a very good forward line - we just have bad coaches who think the only way to win football games is to stack the midfield. It may be an unfair comparison but even Roos maintained a forward line (he did have Hall). The problem is not the cattle its the coaching staff. I predict our non-structure will work against North, brisbane etc and everyone will say its no problem - then we will play carlton,collingwood in a months time and get found out again - they need to change the game plan and use the fact we have an easy month to get our forward structure right - if we don't welcome to mid table medicority for the next few years.

I watch the games on TV so I don't see the big picture that often but when you do get a birdseye view what you say is entirely correct. Your analysis of the problem would also seem to be correct because we do have the players this year, its how they are being used is the problem which gets back to coaching.While I am prepared to say the failure of White as a forward has had huge repercussions on the side there must always be Plan B. Your solution is also the best way to go IMO.Lets formulate a forward line,try and test it against the weaker sides and start to have a structure up there that the midfield can target .You will know it is working when ROK's quick kicks out of the pack go to our players not the opposition because he knows where they will be!

[Cheer Squad]

Here's a bit on our forward line problems in today's Herald:

"The Swans were seventh for points scored during last year's home and away campaign but this season they are 14th - ahead of only St Kilda and strugglers Brisbane and Gold Coast."

Read more: Rookie Johnston waiting in the wings to boost Swans attack (http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/rookie-johnston-waiting-in-the-wings-to-boost-swans-attack-20110524-1f2jm.html#ixzz1NJMYRX7i)

[Chilcott]

That's good news about Johnston.

With Reid and Everitt as our key fowards over the past couple of weeks, we were lacking in strength/power.

If we bring in Seaby and Johnston, along with Reid we'll have some big targets to kick to, which, will help our structure.

I would give Everitt and Jetta a rest this week and play LRT in the backline.

It's then just a matter of juggling the side to balance the smalls with talls.

[Hartijon]

My plan B forward line given LRT's return to the backlines!

FF: TDL Seaby Mc Glynne

HF: Reid Grundy Bolton

Lets work on Seaby as a logical replacement for Pyke and White.Lets exploit his height and marking power. Reg's field kicking has been poor but he is a good set shot and has played in the forwards before. Move him from CHB to CHF. Give this forward line 3 weeks to settle

[liz]

That's good news about Johnston.

With Reid and Everitt as our key fowards over the past couple of weeks, we were lacking in strength/power.

If we bring in Seaby and Johnston, along with Reid we'll have some big targets to kick to, which, will help our structure.

I would give Everitt and Jetta a rest this week and play LRT in the backline.

It's then just a matter of juggling the side to balance the smalls with talls.

I am very excited that we might get to see Johnston finally unleashed, but replacing Everitt with him isn't going to increase our height / power factor in our forward line. He is probably about an inch shorter than Everitt and is still relatively slight. He is not going to provide the big bodied presence up forward that we had all hoped White would be providing. Even at reserve level, his best forward line contributions have been more as a half-forward flanker than a true key forward.

What he will - hopefully - bring to the team is good kicking skills. Those who saw him in the NAB Cup will remember the beautiful goal he kicked from a set shot outside the 50. His field kicking, particularly forward 50 entries to the true advantage of a team mate, can be equally as delicious at times.

[Chilcott]

I am very excited that we might get to see Johnston finally unleashed, but replacing Everitt with him isn't going to increase our height / power factor in our forward line. He is probably about an inch shorter than Everitt and is still relatively slight. He is not going to provide the big bodied presence up forward that we had all hoped White would be providing. Even at reserve level, his best forward line contributions have been more as a half-forward flanker than a true key forward.

What he will - hopefully - bring to the team is good kicking skills. Those who saw him in the NAB Cup will remember the beautiful goal he kicked from a set shot outside the 50. His field kicking, particularly forward 50 entries to the true advantage of a team mate, can be equally as delicious at times.

With respect to a straight Johnston/Everitt swap, you would be correct.

However, if we throw Seaby into the mix, along witth Reid, that gives us some much needed height/power in the forward line. Also, we would be less reliant on Goodes as our key forward.

Wouldn't mind adding in TDL, but who would we leave out. It might be Parker (as he needs a full game) or Johnson????

[aardvark]

. His field kicking, particularly forward 50 entries to the true advantage of a team mate, can be equally as delicious at times.

Liz you're not really Bruce in disguise are you ?

[nomae]

That's good news about Johnston.

With Reid and Everitt as our key fowards over the past couple of weeks, we were lacking in strength/power.

If we bring in Seaby and Johnston, along with Reid we'll have some big targets to kick to, which, will help our structure.

I would give Everitt and Jetta a rest this week and play LRT in the backline.

It's then just a matter of juggling the side to balance the smalls with talls.

This.

[liz]

Liz you're not really Bruce in disguise are you ?

Aaaargh...you've just pointed out what I've done. BM irritates me no end with his constant use of that word (and much else besides) and now I've gone and done it myself.:o

[aardvark]

Aaaargh...you've just pointed out what I've done. BM irritates me no end with his constant use of that word (and much else besides) and now I've gone and done it myself.:o

Its almost a Red Card offence :D

[Swanner]

i just think it doesnt matter who they bring in until they commit to actually having a forward line on the ground we won't be successful.

[Go Swannies]

i just think it doesnt matter who they bring in until they commit to actually having a forward line on the ground we won't be successful.

On the ground?!? That's a novel idea. We certainly have one in surgery, in our heads, and in training so maybe one day we'll have one on the ground, too.

[Leeroy]

We're grievously lacking a forward and half-forward line, especially the 'power forward'. But even if we had a 23 yr old Wayne Carey, he'd go mad for the lack of sharp kicking. Or very tired from chasing random kicks out of the square or off running halfbacks.
It's funny how clubs acquire a characteristic that runs through the decades, regardless of coaches, presidents and players. Sydney have a character based on poor ball skills and a seeming inability to score. Cf, the full-forward in the '05 Grand Final.
Jeez, I remember watching chains of pointless handballs around centre half-forward, like they were all saying "you kick it", "no, YOU kick it" while Tony Lockett was standing in the goalsquare with his arms out, pleading for a quick kick.
I've no more idea of the solution than any of the rest of you. Thing is, Sydney have had two coaches in the last 20 years who've really stamped their mark on the club, Barassi and Roos. Barassi made of the Swans a proper football team, Roos won a flag. But which one would you rather watch?

[Hartijon]

I have no real idea what would work either and we (and Horse has said as much) have to experiment. I remember playing midfield with the same Full Forward for 5 years. You could hit him every time by kicking 20 metres to his left and 20 metres in front of him. When he was injured we could not hit his replacement. This is why our midfield can't hit a target .They keep moving the target.To settle into a structure just lifts the standard of play immensely and the midfield doesn't have to think too much about the delivery.They know where their FF will be running to. IMO opinion we have the cattle.We just gotta find the right combination. The failure of White and the injury to Bradshaw is the root cause of this problem but we gotta get over this and move on. I also don't believe Goodes is the right player for CHF. They tried LRT and it didn't work,why not try Reg and put LRT in Reg's old spot? I think the flankers have enormous potential and I hope LJ goes to forward flank.With Reid the other side this would be an awesome line.

[RBS1]

Any danger of giving white a extended go ?? Looked really good in the early games .. Struggled big time in the wet v cats & Carlton .. But who didn't ... You can't tell me he's not a better forward option than LRT ?? Give him 10 games to prove he can play the position .. This week would have been ideal to bring him back v North

[Swanner]

On the ground?!? That's a novel idea. We certainly have one in surgery, in our heads, and in training so maybe one day we'll have one on the ground, too.

yes it is novel ... i don't know about the rest of you but i am sick of seeing our forwards disappear into the midfield - then we get a fast break and there is no-one to kick it too. eventually they stop running off half back and just kick it long to the boundary - crappy football. i am getting nostaglic now but some off the most exciting moments at the footy was watching lockett; carey; dunstall et.al tearing out from the goal square and trying to beat there man on the lead. ooh well now tackling is valued more as a skill then marking or kicking goals.

[Bloody Hell]

Should have a ? at the end of the thread title.

The forward line I would be aiming for is:

TDL White McVeigh
McGlynn Reid LJ

I like LJ, but think you could suggest 5 guys for the 3rd leading forward spot (where ROK made his name).

McVeigh, TDL and McGlynn to rotate through the midfield, but their primary positions to be forward. If you chose to play 2 true ruckman, would throw this into disarray...but most coaches seem to be shying away from this ATM.

You need someone to take ownership of the forwardline - which I think would suit McVeigh.

White is the BIG ?

As stated elsewhere, like Johnson (of the cricketing variety) the less he plays the more attractive White is. I think he needs alot of coaching regarding body positioning, leading (off a defender ie how to gain 2-3m) and reading the flight of the ball (which as far as I know can only be gained through experience), but I'm clinging to the gossamer thread.

OVERALL though, as the thread implies - the forward line lacks structure...most probaly due to a lack of cohesion/settled unit. Diametrically opposed to the backline, which is largely responsible for our ladder position.

[Bloody Hell]

White is the BIG ?

As stated elsewhere, like Johnson (of the cricketing variety) the less he plays the more attractive White is. I think he needs alot of coaching regarding body positioning, leading (off a defender ie how to gain 2-3m) and reading the flight of the ball (which as far as I know can only be gained through experience), but I'm clinging to the gossamer thread.

Additionally - doesn't seem to have enough @@@@ in him. Would love to see him take it as a personal affront to his masculinity when he's outmarked....at the moment he isn't surprised...that said, neither am I.

[Bloody Hell]

BUMP>>>>>>>>>

Unsurprisingly went to hell with the exclusion of TDL.

Even if he's not doing much he moves to dangerous places, making the defense worry about him. So important for the structure. Considering he played in the twos, makes his exclusion and the reason behind his exclusion look immensily weak.

[Robbo]

People were saying he was dropped because he had the flu. Turns out he was just dropped.

[ScottH]

People were saying he was dropped because he had the flu. Turns out he was just dropped.

And we know this how?

[Big Al]

People were saying he was dropped because he had the flu. Turns out he was just dropped.

Not necessarily. Ever had the flu Robbo?? It saps you of energy for quite awhile so picking him in a senior AFL game wasn't a good idea. Probably on Sat morning he felt he could play reserves so he played. He wasn't great by the way so he wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the seniors.

[Triple B]

BUMP>>>>>>>>>

Unsurprisingly went to hell with the exclusion of TDL.

Even if he's not doing much he moves to dangerous places, making the defense worry about him. So important for the structure. Considering he played in the twos, makes his exclusion and the reason behind his exclusion look immensily weak.

Considering the way he played in the two's, makes the reasoning immensily believable.

If it turns out that they were BS'ing, then he did himself no favours with his performance on Saturday. He certainly played like somebody who wasn't quite right.

[Snake]

We have a forward structure???? I can't see it..........

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[ScottH]

I've been complaing about this for a while and it was discussed yesterday at the game.
And then low and behold it worked in the Last qtr, when they did it.

Instead of these little dickie passes into the forward line trying to spot up a player, get it in long and high and let the forwards do their job: Mark the bloody thing. I reckon we had more marks I50, in the last q, than in the 1st 3.

It gives the fwds a chance, and puts the defenders under pressure, especially when it is at the top of the goal square.
How many times to we miss a target, in the pockets, and the defenders run it out with ease?

[Bloody Hell]

Considering the way he played in the two's, makes the reasoning immensily believable.

If it turns out that they were BS'ing, then he did himself no favours with his performance on Saturday. He certainly played like somebody who wasn't quite right.

They played Mumford and Jack who were underdone. Why not TDL?

Any why isn't he playing this week?

[Go Swannies]

We looked more like a real team tonight than I've seen for a few months. Goodes forward, Jesse back in the side - I don't know what it was but it was working. And we were kicking straight. I'll need to see the game on TV to decipher it but it was good to see.

[S120]

Jesse at FF does make our structure much more effective and improves our side a lot IMO. Let him stay at FF. Allows space for Reid in front of him and if TDL can be brought back in, it lets TDL have a big body to get to the feet of. Players just need to have some more faith in him. Many times had one on one's last night but was ignored for lower % and shorter options. Give him a chance.

And best of all, Goodes is allowed to stay in the middle.

[Bloody Hell]

McVeigh forward....who would have though that could work????

My suspicion that someone from the Swan's coaching staff is trawling RWO is growing every week.

[Bloody Hell]

TDL Grundy White
McVeigh Reid McGlynn

[BRISWAN]

Grundy will save more goals then he will kick!

Our basic problem is moving the ball into the fwd 50 - far too slow.
This probably relates back to how we bring the ball out of the back line
and with LJ kicking in - we might have found an answer.

[Dosser]

Grundy will save more goals then he will kick!

Our basic problem is moving the ball into the fwd 50 - far too slow.
This probably relates back to how we bring the ball out of the back line
and with LJ kicking in - we might have found an answer.

Agreed - we looked so much better with LJ putting it long to the centre and Seaby and Goodes taking marks then moving it on quickly. This is ALWAYS going to improve the look of our forward line and will make sure that we have at least one forward who can stay at home and not be caught up into the midfield press.

[Melbournehammer]

Grundy will save more goals then he will kick!

Our basic problem is moving the ball into the fwd 50 - far too slow.
This probably relates back to how we bring the ball out of the back line
and with LJ kicking in - we might have found an answer.

Yes - all we need is an opposition to kick 21 points per game and then we might have a really good chance of playing well.

Lets see whether LJ can win his own ball back there and see whether that works first.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Agreed - we looked so much better with LJ putting it long to the centre and Seaby and Goodes taking marks then moving it on quickly. This is ALWAYS going to improve the look of our forward line and will make sure that we have at least one forward who can stay at home and not be caught up into the midfield press.

North Melb did it well the other week against the Bombers forward press !

[Nich]

I'd love to see NicMal delivering inside 50 more. He is normally pretty great and I don't recall seeing much of it lately when he has been in the team. Maybe a sign that we aren't patient enough with the ball? Or maybe just the team structure/positioning?

[Hartijon]

We looked more like a real team tonight than I've seen for a few months. Goodes forward, Jesse back in the side - I don't know what it was but it was working. And we were kicking straight. I'll need to see the game on TV to decipher it but it was good to see.

Basically any forward sructure is better than none. Its like when you have a real job instead of a casual position.You are going to put more into it and take it seriously.Similarly if you are designated the FF of an AFL team. Shame its taken so long but the Horse lovers will argue injury and form lapse was the reason.They may be right too. However, every time I see TDL in the two's and Bevan and Everitt in the 1's I know its more than just that.

[wolftone57]

What is it? Our midfielders sometimes come under criticism for not hitting targets in the forwards but running into the Swans forward 50 must be a real lottery as to who you will have in front of you. Will Reid be there or up around the centre? Goodes? Pyke? (not for 4 weeks now) or will the Gopher pop up.Then there might be Jude, ROK,Everitt or runningplayers like Moore,MacVeigh. Each one would require a slightly different delivery.You don't want to kick it too high to the Gopher but a high ball would favour Reid's marking ability.
Our defense is solid and well structured,our forwards are unstructured. In that situation a long bomb is sometimes the best option. Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me and against Geelong it dissappeared altogether.

Often you see all the tall options run to the same side or area of the ground. That is a sure sign there isn't anyone directing traffic there. When Barry was there he would direct trafic & they would spread therefore opening up the options. The problem is they are bunched together & it seems as though there is a flood on but the problem is it is all on one part of the froward line.

[wolftone57]

Basically any forward sructure is better than none. Its like when you have a real job instead of a casual position.You are going to put more into it and take it seriously.Similarly if you are designated the FF of an AFL team. Shame its taken so long but the Horse lovers will argue injury and form lapse was the reason.They may be right too. However, every time I see TDL in the two's and Bevan and Everitt in the 1's I know its more than just that.

Bevo was running around like chook with his head cut off Saturday he looked lost. That may have been due to structural problems but !!! Everritt I wory about, he came the the Bullies with big wraps & as a high daft pick & has been very disappointing. Can't play him in the backline 'cos he leaks like sieve, play him forward & he is ineffective. White still got bodied out of the contest too easily & didn't produce. We have problems in the forwardline & TDL is one of the solutions but not all as I think it is structural. spread & create was the mantra under Roos but now it seems to be bunch up & all run to the same spot following either Goodes or Reid. Reid often had 3 or 4 flying against him because all our players drew their opponents to his contests. The same applies to Goodes

[Bloody Hell]

IMHO the best forward line possible is:

TDL XXXXX Pyke
McVeigh Reid McGlynn

XXXXX = White or a defender (AJ, Grundy, Not LRT) or a player not yet drafted, or a player not yet traded.

That is all.

[BSA5]

IMHO the best forward line possible is:

TDL XXXXX Pyke
McVeigh Reid McGlynn

XXXXX = White or a defender (AJ, Grundy, Not LRT) or a player not yet drafted, or a player not yet traded.

That is all.

I like LRT forward. It doesn't show up in the stats, but almost every time the ball goes to LRT at FF, the ball doesn't rebound. He doesn't get on successful leads as often as you'd like for a FF, but he ALWAYS puts up a contest and keeps the ball dangerous. While he doesn't often mark the ball, I think I could count on one hand the number of times a defender has taken a mark against LRT. LRT almost always brings the ball to ground, and then he competes like a terrier at ground level to lock it in if the crumbers can't get to it.

I like Pyke most as a FF/second ruckman, as he has fantastic hands that could really come to the fore out of the goalsquare, as well as the tenacity to compete at ground level and lock the ball in. In that case, I'd be up for LRT moving to the backline and AJ moving to a FP/HFF, and when Pyke goes to the ruck, Reid resting in the goalsquare (remember the Richmond game where Reid turned so many heads? He was playing FF for that magical patch).

Who would have thought, even just a year ago, that we'd be having trouble fitting all our key position players into the side?! We've gone from having a desperate need to recruit talls to overflowing with them (at senior level at least). Guess that's what happens when both Richards and LRT are fit AND in form, you unearth gems like Reid and Johnson, and the sub rule means you have to rest your second ruckman in the forwardline rather than bench him.

[aardvark]

I like Pyke most as a FF/second ruckman, as he has fantastic hands that could really come to the fore out of the goalsquare, as well as the tenacity to compete at ground level and lock the ball in. In that case, I'd be up for LRT moving to the backline and AJ moving to a FP/HFF, and when Pyke goes to the ruck.

Hows about Pyke to FF, Teddy to back flank, LRT to FB and Tiger to the ressies ?

[Bloody Hell]

I like LRT forward. It doesn't show up in the stats, but almost every time the ball goes to LRT at FF, the ball doesn't rebound. He doesn't get on successful leads as often as you'd like for a FF, but he ALWAYS puts up a contest and keeps the ball dangerous. While he doesn't often mark the ball, I think I could count on one hand the number of times a defender has taken a mark against LRT. LRT almost always brings the ball to ground, and then he competes like a terrier at ground level to lock it in if the crumbers can't get to it.

I like Pyke most as a FF/second ruckman, as he has fantastic hands that could really come to the fore out of the goalsquare, as well as the tenacity to compete at ground level and lock the ball in. In that case, I'd be up for LRT moving to the backline and AJ moving to a FP/HFF, and when Pyke goes to the ruck, Reid resting in the goalsquare (remember the Richmond game where Reid turned so many heads? He was playing FF for that magical patch).

Who would have thought, even just a year ago, that we'd be having trouble fitting all our key position players into the side?! We've gone from having a desperate need to recruit talls to overflowing with them (at senior level at least). Guess that's what happens when both Richards and LRT are fit AND in form, you unearth gems like Reid and Johnson, and the sub rule means you have to rest your second ruckman in the forwardline rather than bench him.

LRT is a backman. Looks like a backman, kicks like a backman, plays like a backman. I agree he has held his position due to his defensive ability, but that's not a point I'd even consider in picking a FF.

If you've got your fullback as the full forward (not in the good way like Alister Lynch), it says alot about the mindset of the coach and the team. You're lauding the defensive ability of the FF. It's FF!!!!!! ATTACK!!!

[Big Al]

LRT is a backman. Looks like a backman, kicks like a backman, plays like a backman. I agree he has held his position due to his defensive ability, but that's not a point I'd even consider in picking a FF.

If you've got your fullback as the full forward (not in the good way like Alister Lynch), it says alot about the mindset of the coach and the team. You're lauding the defensive ability of the FF. It's FF!!!!!! ATTACK!!!

Modern footy requires the forwards to have defensive abilities. Any forward that just ATTACKs will be found out on the rebound by a decent defence.

The mind set of this team is to win games of football. We lack a big bodied forward so LRT was used. He's not a permanent solution but he was the best option available imo.

[Bloody Hell]

Modern footy requires the forwards to have defensive abilities. Any forward that just ATTACKs will be found out on the rebound by a decent defence.

The mind set of this team is to win games of football. We lack a big bodied forward so LRT was used. He's not a permanent solution but he was the best option available imo.

I agree.

I'm not saying the FF shouldn't defend, just that it shouldn't be the main criteria used for selection. When did FF become a defensive position?

I'd probably start with goal kicking ability.

It's a moot point anyway because LRT is the 2nd ruck, not the FF.

[Big Al]

I agree.

I'm not saying the FF shouldn't defend, just that it shouldn't be the main criteria used for selection. When did FF become a defensive position?

I'd probably start with goal kicking ability.

It's a moot point anyway because LRT is the 2nd ruck, not the FF.

Fair enough and no, it shouldn't be the main criteria but it's an important one as TDL is discovering.

[BSA5]

LRT is a backman. Looks like a backman, kicks like a backman, plays like a backman. I agree he has held his position due to his defensive ability, but that's not a point I'd even consider in picking a FF.

If you've got your fullback as the full forward (not in the good way like Alister Lynch), it says alot about the mindset of the coach and the team. You're lauding the defensive ability of the FF. It's FF!!!!!! ATTACK!!!

LRT kicks enough goals and creates enough goals to justify his place. At present, we don't have a FF capable of kicking bags of goals. That's just a fact. Richards or Grundy aren't going to kick more goals than LRT, but LRT is working as a resting ruckman and FF because at least he's trapping the ball in there, allowing other players a chance. That is an underrated ability. It's unconventional, but with our current forward stocks, unconventional is what we're going to have to go with.

And LRT doesn't kick like a backman at all. He is a very good set shot for goal.

[Mountain Man]

As this thread is "Forward Structure", IMHO some factors are

1. the resting ruckman is most often going to be there; best as a pocket - either Pyke or LRT
2. a 'tall' at CHF is a must - and how lucky we are to have Reid (who often gets too far away from goals I think)
3. a ' solid tall' at FF would be desirable - we wish for Jesse to prove himself; Spanger got one game and injury intervened; oh for Bradshaw this year; maybe a recruit will come to us
4. a permanent 'small' for the other pocket seems right; they need to learn how to work with the above mentioned as to space etc - I am undecided whether TDL is the answer as another marking option, or Benny as a terrier and opportunist and a defensive pressure player BUT one should be there all the time
5. and 6. the HFF positions are probably filled by either rotating midfielders or attacking wingmen who then become responsible for the pressure.

So my conclusions remain that we still do not have the "structure" in place, and until we do it with some continuity, the mid field are going to continue to bomb blindly, or the forward space is going to continue to be cluttered

[wolftone57]

LRT kicks enough goals and creates enough goals to justify his place. At present, we don't have a FF capable of kicking bags of goals. That's just a fact. Richards or Grundy aren't going to kick more goals than LRT, but LRT is working as a resting ruckman and FF because at least he's trapping the ball in there, allowing other players a chance. That is an underrated ability. It's unconventional, but with our current forward stocks, unconventional is what we're going to have to go with.

And LRT doesn't kick like a backman at all. He is a very good set shot for goal.

Even I have to admit that LRT's goal kicking has improved markedly & I am not a fan of him up forward

[Hartijon]

As this thread is "Forward Structure", IMHO some factors are

1. the resting ruckman is most often going to be there; best as a pocket - either Pyke or LRT
2. a 'tall' at CHF is a must - and how lucky we are to have Reid (who often gets too far away from goals I think)
3. a ' solid tall' at FF would be desirable - we wish for Jesse to prove himself; Spanger got one game and injury intervened; oh for Bradshaw this year; maybe a recruit will come to us
4. a permanent 'small' for the other pocket seems right; they need to learn how to work with the above mentioned as to space etc - I am undecided whether TDL is the answer as another marking option, or Benny as a terrier and opportunist and a defensive pressure player BUT one should be there all the time
5. and 6. the HFF positions are probably filled by either rotating midfielders or attacking wingmen who then become responsible for the pressure.

So my conclusions remain that we still do not have the "structure" in place, and until we do it with some continuity, the mid field are going to continue to bomb blindly, or the forward space is going to continue to be cluttered

Both will happen. The blind bomb is not the fault of the player! Its the fault of not having a forward structure. At least the blind bomb gives us a 50:50 chance

[wolftone57]

As this thread is "Forward Structure", IMHO some factors are

1. the resting ruckman is most often going to be there; best as a pocket - either Pyke or LRT
2. a 'tall' at CHF is a must - and how lucky we are to have Reid (who often gets too far away from goals I think)
3. a ' solid tall' at FF would be desirable - we wish for Jesse to prove himself; Spanger got one game and injury intervened; oh for Bradshaw this year; maybe a recruit will come to us
4. a permanent 'small' for the other pocket seems right; they need to learn how to work with the above mentioned as to space etc - I am undecided whether TDL is the answer as another marking option, or Benny as a terrier and opportunist and a defensive pressure player BUT one should be there all the time
5. and 6. the HFF positions are probably filled by either rotating midfielders or attacking wingmen who then become responsible for the pressure.

So my conclusions remain that we still do not have the "structure" in place, and until we do it with some continuity, the mid field are going to continue to bomb blindly, or the forward space is going to continue to be cluttered

I don't agree with all the half forwards being resting mids that's bull. A good HF is worth diamonds, like say Stevie J (even though he has played FF & FP he is essentially a HF) or Bruist for the Hawks or like Jarman for the Crows.

[stellation]

Hey BSA5 and Big Al, why don't you hep cats read this (http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/forum/showthread.php/33207-RIP-Jesse-Whites-Career-Part-II?p=543056&viewfull=1#post543056) post and lemme know your thoughts?

[Big Al]

Hey BSA5 and Big Al, why don't you hep cats read this (http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/forum/showthread.php/33207-RIP-Jesse-Whites-Career-Part-II?p=543056&viewfull=1#post543056) post and lemme know your thoughts?

Stats can be used to prove anything. 86.4% of people know that.

Statistically speaking there isn't a lot of difference between LRT and Jesse and your point is well made. However what the stats don't show is Jesse's poor positional play and decision making deficiencies. Something LRT has done, imo , much better. Having said that, I saw in the reserves on the weekend a glimmer of hope for Jesse. He worked hard and he worked smart. If he continues in this vein and I truly hope he does, the thread I started on Jesse will leave delicious egg on my face.

[stellation]

Stats can be used to prove anything. 86.4% of people know that.

Statistically speaking there isn't a lot of difference between LRT and Jesse and your point is well made. However what the stats don't show is Jesse's poor positional play and decision making deficiencies. Something LRT has done, imo , much better. Having said that, I saw in the reserves on the weekend a glimmer of hope for Jesse. He worked hard and he worked smart. If he continues in this vein and I truly hope he does, the thread I started on Jesse will leave delicious egg on my face.

Is it easier, though, to make good position or decisions against weaker opposition? I thought the split of top 10 vs. bottom 7 was interesting, ignoring the ability of Lewis' to play against varying levels of opposition one would also think that the team may run through the middle against weaker opponents to setup?

[Bloody Hell]

LRT kicks enough goals and creates enough goals to justify his place. At present, we don't have a FF capable of kicking bags of goals. That's just a fact. Richards or Grundy aren't going to kick more goals than LRT, but LRT is working as a resting ruckman and FF because at least he's trapping the ball in there, allowing other players a chance. That is an underrated ability. It's unconventional, but with our current forward stocks, unconventional is what we're going to have to go with.

He is serviceable, I don't dispute that, but how can you definitively state there are no better, or other options? Why not Grundy or AJ or White (as Stella points out)?

And to be clear it's the FF position we are talking about so the points are purely hypothetical. If LRT wasn't the 2nd ruck there is no way he would be playing forward.


And LRT doesn't kick like a backman at all. He is a very good set shot for goal.

Did you see his attempted snap from general play on the weekend?

He was the backiest looking backman playing forward I've ever seen.

[BSA5]

Hey BSA5 and Big Al, why don't you hep cats read this (http://www.redandwhiteonline.com/forum/showthread.php/33207-RIP-Jesse-Whites-Career-Part-II?p=543056&viewfull=1#post543056) post and lemme know your thoughts?

My thoughts? That LRT has kicked as many goals as White, but has taken more marks, created more goals for other players, and allowed fewer rebounds.


He is serviceable, I don't dispute that, but how can you definitively state there are no better, or other options? Why not Grundy or AJ or White (as Stella points out)?

And to be clear it's the FF position we are talking about so the points are purely hypothetical. If LRT wasn't the 2nd ruck there is no way he would be playing forward.

White has been tried and has failed. Grundy has been tried and has failed. AJ probably doesn't have the size to play FF. LRT probably wouldn't kick many more goals than these others, but he doesn't kick less, and he brings things to the table that these guys don't.

And it's not hypothetical. When LRT is resting in the forwardline, he is playing FF. When he goes into the ruck, either Reid or Mumford go to FF. But the important point is that whenever LRT is up forward, he's playing as a FF.




Did you see his attempted snap from general play on the weekend?

He was the backiest looking backman playing forward I've ever seen.

Have you seen his set shots this year? Or his classy goal in which he turned Merrett inside out in the goalsquare? One bad snap at goal and you're writing off his goalkicking? Bull@@@@. Even Lockett kicked it like a backman on occasions. LRT has kicked 12 goals 4 this year, and you're telling me he's no good kicking for goal. Seriously?

And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.

[Big Al]

Is it easier, though, to make good position or decisions against weaker opposition?

True so you would expect Jesse to do these things in the NEAFL which unfortunately he hasn't been. Last weekend was the best I've seen from him this year. As I said earlier he played smart football which was terrific to see.

[Big Al]

And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.

My thoughts also.

[Bloody Hell]

My thoughts? That LRT has kicked as many goals as White, but has taken more marks, created more goals for other players, and allowed fewer rebounds.



White has been tried and has failed. Grundy has been tried and has failed. AJ probably doesn't have the size to play FF. LRT probably wouldn't kick many more goals than these others, but he doesn't kick less, and he brings things to the table that these guys don't.

How has White failed? You say immediately before this that LRT and White are similar. Has LRT failed? Missed the games Grundy played FF this year. Why not give AJ a go? Aren't we trying to find a solution? I don't think anyone see's LRT as the long term option. For me the options are:

1. Jesse White
2. LJ puts on 15kg over Christmas
3. We have 4 quality tall defenders playing in the team - one of them. Not LRT. As stated above I think AJ or Grundy could be effective.
4. We trade for someone.
5. We draft someone - probably mature age


And it's not hypothetical. When LRT is resting in the forwardline, he is playing FF. When he goes into the ruck, either Reid or Mumford go to FF. But the important point is that whenever LRT is up forward, he's playing as a FF.

This thread is about the Forward Structure. LRT is in the forward line as the second ruck. If he wasn't the second ruck he wouldn't be there, he'd be in defense.



Have you seen his set shots this year? Or his classy goal in which he turned Merrett inside out in the goalsquare? One bad snap at goal and you're writing off his goalkicking? Bull@@@@. Even Lockett kicked it like a backman on occasions. LRT has kicked 12 goals 4 this year, and you're telling me he's no good kicking for goal. Seriously?
I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying he isn't a natural forward, though effective. It was like the first time he'd attempted a snap. Show me a forward who can't kick around their body.

His value to the team is in defense. I can't describe anything LRT does as classy.


And I'm not trying to say that LRT is a good FF. Just that he's the best we've got, at least while Pyke is injured. I'd rather see Pyke lining up at FF and rotating through the ruck than LRT, but while Pyke is out/getting match fitness in the ressies, LRT is the man for the job.
Agree re: Pyke, but would prefer to see a stay at home FF as well as a tall resting in the pocket.

[stellation]

I must say, the two of you have dissapointed me with your discussion of this important point.

[BSA5]

How has White failed? You say immediately before this that LRT and White are similar. Has LRT failed? Missed the games Grundy played FF this year. Why not give AJ a go? Aren't we trying to find a solution? I don't think anyone see's LRT as the long term option. For me the options are:

1. Jesse White
2. LJ puts on 15kg over Christmas
3. We have 4 quality tall defenders playing in the team - one of them. Not LRT. As stated above I think AJ or Grundy could be effective.
4. We trade for someone.
5. We draft someone - probably mature age

Why not LRT? You keep saying "not LRT", and yet LRT has been demonstrably effective. Grundy has played forward in the past, and was moved to the backline for a reason. AJ is skinny, his main strength is reading the flight of the ball. Great for a defender, not so useful for a forward who should be running AT the ball. Same reason Teddy is a better defender than forward. We'd also lose AJ's defensive ability and flexibility. I don't think we can understate how important AJ is to our defence right now, he gives us a flexibility down back that we haven't had since Craig Bolton in 09.

And I said LRT's goal output is similar to White's (slightly higher, but against slightly weaker opposition overall). In other facets, LRT trumps White, and by quite a margin. Everything from marks taken, to tackles made, to one percenters, to stoppages forced.... everything. He's better at shutting down opposition ruckmen around the ground, he's better at creating opportunities for his other forwards, he's better at getting up the ground and taking marks. White failed because his goal output wasn't enough to make up for everything else. LRT succeeds because he does everything else better.




This thread is about the Forward Structure. LRT is in the forward line as the second ruck. If he wasn't the second ruck he wouldn't be there, he'd be in defense.

Are you sure about that? We have three settled tall defenders: Richards, Grundy and Johnson. Who makes way? Our key defenders are arguably our strongest and most settled part of the team, messing with that is asking for trouble. I can't see LRT moving into defence again this year, barring injury to one of our three current key defenders.

And besides which, with the sub rule, the second ruck and the forward structure and inextricable. At the moment, we have a system where our second ruck, when not rucking, IS our full forward. When he is rucking, he's replaced either by the first ruckman, or our CHF (Reid). Sometimes Goodes floats through there too, but he's mostly up the ground.




I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying he isn't a natural forward, though effective. It was like the first time he'd attempted a snap. Show me a forward who can't kick around their body.

His value to the team is in defense. I can't describe anything LRT does as classy.

So let me get this straight.... you've admitted he's effective, yet you still don't want him forward because he doesn't look classy? Seriously? Because LRT doesn't look the part, his value can only be in defence?


Agree re: Pyke, but would prefer to see a stay at home FF as well as a tall resting in the pocket.

Well then the best stay at home FF we've got right now is LRT, so get used to it. Probably better putting LRT in a pocket and having Pyke in the goalsquare, and LRT moves into the goalsquare when Pyke rucks.

[Bloody Hell]

Why not LRT? You keep saying "not LRT", and yet LRT has been demonstrably effective. Grundy has played forward in the past, and was moved to the backline for a reason. AJ is skinny, his main strength is reading the flight of the ball. Great for a defender, not so useful for a forward who should be running AT the ball. Same reason Teddy is a better defender than forward. We'd also lose AJ's defensive ability and flexibility. I don't think we can understate how important AJ is to our defence right now, he gives us a flexibility down back that we haven't had since Craig Bolton in 09.

There's a difference between being effective and being a force to be reckoned with. Grundy played forward about 5 years ago for a few games, kicked 3 goals on debut. Since then his bodywork and contested marking has improved out of sight. Plus he has the ability to take amazing speccies on peoples heads, which is always enjoyable. I have said before I'd like to see this happen - and with the four key defenders, don't buy into the Peter and Paul argument.

AJ could be anything, I don't know. I wouldn't be limiting him. I don't think Richards is a good forward.


And I said LRT's goal output is similar to White's (slightly higher, but against slightly weaker opposition overall). In other facets, LRT trumps White, and by quite a margin. Everything from marks taken, to tackles made, to one percenters, to stoppages forced.... everything. He's better at shutting down opposition ruckmen around the ground, he's better at creating opportunities for his other forwards, he's better at getting up the ground and taking marks. White failed because his goal output wasn't enough to make up for everything else. LRT succeeds because he does everything else better.

I don't know what will happen with White, but I think he has been a bit maligned this year. Being dropped twice and then coming back both times in extremely wet conditions did him no favours. Will be interesting to see where he stands after the off season. I don't think we'll see him again this year.


Are you sure about that? We have three settled tall defenders: Richards, Grundy and Johnson. Who makes way? Our key defenders are arguably our strongest and most settled part of the team, messing with that is asking for trouble. I can't see LRT moving into defence again this year, barring injury to one of our three current key defenders.

And besides which, with the sub rule, the second ruck and the forward structure and inextricable. At the moment, we have a system where our second ruck, when not rucking, IS our full forward. When he is rucking, he's replaced either by the first ruckman, or our CHF (Reid). Sometimes Goodes floats through there too, but he's mostly up the ground.

If you consider the way LRT got his current gig, he was injured and couldn't break into the defense as the three you mention had it sewn up. White got dropped and LRT slotted in. So no, nothing will probably change this year.

However I think most agree that Mike Pyke is the No.1 choice for the second ruck role. His return could potentially have the greatest bearing on the structure of the team. It will be interesting to see the results when/if this happens.



So let me get this straight.... you've admitted he's effective, yet you still don't want him forward because he doesn't look classy? Seriously? Because LRT doesn't look the part, his value can only be in defence?

I don't like him as FF, because he's not a FF. There's one goal he kicked after the siren that sticks in my mind where he busted out on a lead and took a great contested mark falling away from his opponent, then went back and slotted it. That was a good FF's goal. If he starts doing that regularly or starts pulling down some screamers I'll give it away.

The fact that he can lock the ball in etc, while great attributes shouldn't be the reason a FF is selected. I like LRT as a defender. Probably the best at spoiling in the team and the best at completely shutting down an opposition tall.


The FF we've got right now is LRT, so get used to it. Probably better putting LRT in a pocket and having Pyke in the goalsquare, and LRT moves into the goalsquare when Pyke rucks.

Edited for accuracy! And I am getting used to it. I was of the impression that most saw LRT as a band-aid solution, but this obviously isn't the case.

[Bloody Hell]

I must say, the two of you have dissapointed me with your discussion of this important point.

Chime in at any time!

[Melbourne_Blood]

I agreee, i see LRT as a band-aid solution to our forward line. . He is not going to win you a game off his boot, ever, but he could save you a game with his fist. He's doing an okay job, sure, no dispute there, but if everyone in the team was doing an okay job, we wouldn't be much of a footy side at all.

I dont know what the solution is to this in terms of a forward to replace LRT, but saying we cant make room for him in defence is incorrect. Drop Tadgh. Play AJ as a more attacking rebounding defender ( which i think he's been doing a bit more of lately, and i see this as his role in the side ideally) . Bring LRT back to CHB or FB with either of Ted or Grundy to take the other tall forward and the other to roam about and take a few marks from opposition kicks ( A Maxwell type of role ).

[wolftone57]

I agreee, i see LRT as a band-aid solution to our forward line. . He is not going to win you a game off his boot, ever, but he could save you a game with his fist. He's doing an okay job, sure, no dispute there, but if everyone in the team was doing an okay job, we wouldn't be much of a footy side at all.

I dont know what the solution is to this in terms of a forward to replace LRT, but saying we cant make room for him in defence is incorrect. Drop Tadgh. Play AJ as a more attacking rebounding defender ( which i think he's been doing a bit more of lately, and i see this as his role in the side ideally) . Bring LRT back to CHB or FB with either of Ted or Grundy to take the other tall forward and the other to roam about and take a few marks from opposition kicks ( A Maxwell type of role ).

I agree with this and Teddy does that role really well. I have just been using super glue & it goes everywhere so if I stuff up it is because I can't feel the keys due to the super glue on my fingers, that's my excuse & I am sticking to it. I think either Spangher or belive it or not Everritt will be our FF eventually. Everritt has the height & when he has the confidence leads really well. Harren in the resies might make it but Al, Ugg or Liz would know better than me. But LRT put him back where he belongs he loves it there.

[Hartijon]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.

[Rob-bloods]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.


Harti I'm still with you, an appalling setup and we go on with the same old crap week after week. We don't change anything around so let's imagine the opposing defensive coach....hmm they kick long speculators to Reid, LRT averaging around 3 possessions per week, Goodes dangerous but poor goal kicking other most dangerous forward the same height as Damien Oliver (McGlynn) should be an easy week on the track.

I am very concerned about cold starts and lack of invention in our coaching, we may not have great cattle but can't the coaches try something at times?

[ScottH]

"Can anyone explain how our forward line is supposed to work? It seems makeshift and chaotic to me "

I wrote this 3 months ago. Failure to set up a structure ,failure to have players in set positions,failure to put in forward players who can lead,failure to develop our kicking skills(Its just as bad as it was 3 months ago) has now all compounded on the team.

No forward line=no scoreboard pressure= losing games we should win.

Pretty much it. Tigers had all the numbers back and no swans in sight.

[dimelb]

One problem is that we rotate people through the forward line in different positions so that there is no consistent idea of who will be where. I can't think it helps.

[aardvark]

The Fev kicked 7 again this weekend:cool:

[Matt79]

I desperately want to see...White at FF from the goal square. TDL in the pocket, Reid at CHF providing a target up the ground, McGlynn in the other pocket as the crumber.

[Big Al]

I desperately want to see...White at FF from the goal square. TDL in the pocket, Reid at CHF providing a target up the ground, McGlynn in the other pocket as the crumber.

Replace TDL with Nipper and I'm sold. Nipper will compete hard both offensively and defensively. Something TDL is still struggling with.

[BSA5]

Edited for accuracy! And I am getting used to it. I was of the impression that most saw LRT as a band-aid solution, but this obviously isn't the case.

Snipped the rest because this is the crux of the debate. Of course LRT is a band-aid solution! But until we have a FF that can play the role, the band-aid is going to have to stay in place. At the moment, there is no clear candidate for the FF position. If we were to land Taylor Walker, or even Tom Hawkins, then yes, LRT moves. If Johnston can get on the park and build up his core and upper-body strength, then yes, LRT moves. But at the moment, there's no clear FF solution, so LRT remains.

[Bloody Hell]

Snipped the rest because this is the crux of the debate. Of course LRT is a band-aid solution! But until we have a FF that can play the role, the band-aid is going to have to stay in place. At the moment, there is no clear candidate for the FF position. If we were to land Taylor Walker, or even Tom Hawkins, then yes, LRT moves. If Johnston can get on the park and build up his core and upper-body strength, then yes, LRT moves. But at the moment, there's no clear FF solution, so LRT remains.

I thought after today's performance this debate would be over - however...

This is the crux of my argument. LRT is not the solution, there are other solutions available, so why not work through them, crossing them off as we go.

I suggest we'll find out what's going to happen vs the Cat's when in all likelyhood Mike Pyke will return.

[Snake]

Forget about the FF how about the two pocket positions and CHF and forward flankers??
Moore and Bevan, should get a chance to get a pocket position, or even TDL
Reid is trying to hold down arguably the hardest position in CHF, just ain't there yet, this is where Goodes should be.
O'Keefe is he injured, sore, tired??? Just so flat at the moment
Jetta - to easily pushed of the ball, needs to spend all summer doing weights....

[dimelb]

What is happening with Ben McGlynn? He's not where he was.

[giant]

What is happening with Ben McGlynn? He's not where he was.

Agreed, had some good patches but overall a pretty poor year compared to last year. Not the same passion and most of all not the same scoreboard pressure. Whether it's residual from last year's horror smash or just a return to the mean, he's given us very little most of the year.

[Scottee]

Snipped the rest because this is the crux of the debate. Of course LRT is a band-aid solution! But until we have a FF that can play the role, the band-aid is going to have to stay in place. At the moment, there is no clear candidate for the FF position. If we were to land Taylor Walker, or even Tom Hawkins, then yes, LRT moves. If Johnston can get on the park and build up his core and upper-body strength, then yes, LRT moves. But at the moment, there's no clear FF solution, so LRT remains.

I can't work out why Seaby has not been tried as a power forward. He could fill that role better than anyone at the club. His record at WC was very good as a forward and he can also back up better than LRT or White in the ruck. I don't think the club has acted in its own interest here.

[Hartijon]

I can't work out why Seaby has not been tried as a power forward. He could fill that role better than anyone at the club. His record at WC was very good as a forward and he can also back up better than LRT or White in the ruck. I don't think the club has acted in its own interest here.

It comes back to the same point. There has not been a genuine attempt to structure a Forward line. Even people singing LRT's praises admit he is a temporary solution only.Has he ever been seen to lead? Candidates for a permanent FF spot are of course Seaby, Pyke, Spangher,Currie or Reid (With someone else at CHF) .We are paying the price now for lack of foresight, planning and no risk taking early in the season. I blame unimaginative coaching.

[aardvark]

It comes back to the same point. There has not been a genuine attempt to structure a Forward line. Even people singing LRT's praises admit he is a temporary solution only.Has he ever been seen to lead? Candidates for a permanent FF spot are of course Seaby, Pyke, Spangher,Currie or Reid (With someone else at CHF) .We are paying the price now for lack of foresight, planning and no risk taking early in the season. I blame unimaginative coaching.

Yep its been a wasted year in that respect.

[Nich]

Badly wasted - a few injuries have played part but still super disappointing - makes me wonder if they've been planning all year to buy a key forward for 2012?? Not sure who is available though! It's like they've given up for 2011 on trying to make something work.

[rojames]

Play Jesse white at full forward. Open up the immediate area.One on one i beleive he will win most contests. Jarrad Moore is an essential part of that structure. We cannot continue with our style of football as the speed of the game is killing us. And we lack speed.
Lewis Jetta needs a spell as his second efforts are all but none existent. LRT back to full back.Richards in a back pocket. The forward set up at the moment or lack of comes down to coaching. Nothing else.

[Snake]

Play Jesse white at full forward. Open up the immediate area.One on one i beleive he will win most contests. Jarrad Moore is an essential part of that structure. We cannot continue with our style of football as the speed of the game is killing us. And we lack speed.
Lewis Jetta needs a spell as his second efforts are all but none existent. LRT back to full back.Richards in a back pocket. The forward set up at the moment or lack of comes down to coaching. Nothing else.

+1 :cool:

[aardvark]

Play Jesse white at full forward. Open up the immediate area.One on one i beleive he will win most contests. Jarrad Moore is an essential part of that structure. We cannot continue with our style of football as the speed of the game is killing us. And we lack speed.
Lewis Jetta needs a spell as his second efforts are all but none existent. LRT back to full back.Richards in a back pocket. The forward set up at the moment or lack of comes down to coaching. Nothing else.

Welcome aboard rojames. I don't disagree we lack sped but I don't see how Bulldog will help solve that problem. I too would be happy to see LRT at FB and Teddy as the 3rd tall defender, a role he plays so well.

[Snake]

Welcome aboard rojames. I don't disagree we lack sped but I don't see how Bulldog will help solve that problem. I too would be happy to see LRT at FB and Teddy as the 3rd tall defender, a role he plays so well.

Longmire wants toughness around the ball then speed 2nd, Moore @@@@'s over Jetta in the strength department!

[Hartijon]

Longmire wants toughness around the ball then speed 2nd, Moore @@@@'s over Jetta in the strength department!

I don't mind that much what players are tried as a forward structure,my beef is that we haven't tried to settle a Forward line in place and therefore can't threaten good sides because we struggle to score and deliver poorly to whoever happens to be in the forwards.

LRT is a defender playing man on man with his defender,amusing at times but at least he gives it 100% and traps the ball. "Trapping the ball in the forwards" is the politest way to say a player has no attacking skills. He holds the ball there for those that do.

As someone said tick them off but at least have a go ,otherwise it has been a wasted year! Ok injuries have not helped but Seaby or Currie could have been tried.Both can mark ,kick straight and are tall. They even lead which is a rarity to see in the Swans Forward line.

I agree, we seem to be playing time out till a power forward is recruited.

[Snake]

I would luv to see a small/medium swans player step up be more like a Chapman from Geelong, he's not that quick but so strong and a great decision maker :cool:

[SPC]

It comes back to the same point. There has not been a genuine attempt to structure a Forward line. Even people singing LRT's praises admit he is a temporary solution only.Has he ever been seen to lead? Candidates for a permanent FF spot are of course Seaby, Pyke, Spangher,Currie or Reid (With someone else at CHF) .We are paying the price now for lack of foresight, planning and no risk taking early in the season. I blame unimaginative coaching.

Agree that it would be nice to see a settled forward line that works really well, but when I sit down every weekend and watch our games thats not what hits me in the face as the major concern with our team. Maybe I look at different things to others and obviously the forward setup is important in a functioning team, but at the moment to me its just p***ing around the edges compared to the real problems in the current squad. I dont think if we had Plugger back in his prime we would have won on the weekend because even with his leads the delivery coming in would have been bouncing in front of him, over his head, too slow, an up and under that gives time to 2 other defenders to get to the contest, or any other poor way you can think of to get it there. Compared to the class teams & even some of the others below our level, our Midfield just look so lacking in basic kicking skills, handballing skills, decision making ability, working off the ball to get into space, pace, etc, etc, etc that our forwards dont get a chance to get decent leads at the ball because the delivery is so rubbish.

To address your specific last post thou, remembering that we are down a proper FF (Bradshaw) on the list without a shot being fired, havent most of the choices you have put up been tried except for Currie? I havent seen him play in the Ressies so cant comment, but I think he is now injured as well. White (the other FF on our list) started there & didnt come up, Pyke in then injured just coming back now, Spanger played one game forward then injured, Seaby/Mumford as resting ruck (I do think this would be worthwhile, but most others seem to think we cant have them both in the side with the sub rule), LJ had a game forward (I would have liked to see more of him) but then injured anyway, LRT bandaid due to lack of other choices (and some would say imaginative solution to a hole that nobody else made their own)...so a few have been tried?

The other way to look at it is how would Collingwoods forward line function with the delivery they would get from our Midfield? Or, the other way around, how many goals would Sam Reid & any one of the options above kick with service from Swan, Pendelbury, Thomas, etc, etc? Plus their midfield, like the other good ones these days go forward and kick their own goals as well rather than relying on just a standard FF setup.

[Jewels]

Agree that it would be nice to see a settled forward line that works really well, but when I sit down every weekend and watch our games thats not what hits me in the face as the major concern with our team. Maybe I look at different things to others and obviously the forward setup is important in a functioning team, but at the moment to me its just p***ing around the edges compared to the real problems in the current squad. I dont think if we had Plugger back in his prime we would have won on the weekend because even with his leads the delivery coming in would have been bouncing in front of him, over his head, too slow, an up and under that gives time to 2 other defenders to get to the contest, or any other poor way you can think of to get it there. Compared to the class teams & even some of the others below our level, our Midfield just look so lacking in basic kicking skills, handballing skills, decision making ability, working off the ball to get into space, pace, etc, etc, etc that our forwards dont get a chance to get decent leads at the ball because the delivery is so rubbish.

Spot on. We could have Jackie boy and Buddy running around in our forward 50 and they still wouldn't be able to kick us a score cause our midfield is complete and utter GARBAGE!!!!

[Lucky Knickers]

Welcome aboard rojames. I don't disagree we lack sped but I don't see how Bulldog will help solve that problem. I too would be happy to see LRT at FB and Teddy as the 3rd tall defender, a role he plays so well.
My thoughts. I do think we miss Moore's brain, direction and smarts but his speed is going to hurt us on the rebound.

[Wardy]

I'm kind of glad I didnt see the game at all now - only heard the last quarter in the car - so I wont be watching the replay then. the ressies were much more entertaining.

[Rob-bloods]

I'm kind of glad I didnt see the game at all now - only heard the last quarter in the car - so I wont be watching the replay then. the ressies were much more entertaining.

On no account watch it.....don't even read the stats..they are also morbid!

[Hartijon]

Spot on. We could have Jackie boy and Buddy running around in our forward 50 and they still wouldn't be able to kick us a score cause our midfield is complete and utter GARBAGE!!!!

YES and No! We would get used to Buddy and Jackie and after a couple of games find them regularly with kicks. My point is an unsettled forward line directly affects the mid field who have no idea how they will need to kick the ball each time they get it. With Buddy there you could close your eyes and still find him. Its a bit of a chicken versus egg argument but as an ex midfielder I would LOVE to see the same guys in front of me every week.You know where to put the ball.Currently the best way to kick into the Swans forward line is to bomb it in.

My other criticism is the lack of on field leadership. Deserves its own thread IMO

The other

[Triple B]

With Buddy there you could close your eyes and still find him......

Someone needs to tell ROK that Buddy is not down there then, he appears to have followed that mantra for the past 2 seasons...

[Hartijon]

Someone needs to tell ROK that Buddy is not down there then, he appears to have followed that mantra for the past 2 seasons...

Hehehe! Good one!:D:D

[aardvark]

I'd give White and Spangher a pass mark today. Now if we can just get organised............

[Robbo]

Spangher has a real dip which is great to see. Can Spangher, Reid and White all be in the one forward line though?

[Bloody Hell]

Spangher has a real dip which is great to see. Can Spangher, Reid and White all be in the one forward line though?

Yes. This is the setup most forward lines seem to be following atm. A FF, CHF and the 2nd ruckman.

Could easily kicked 23.10 today...so the setup worked.

Love to see some straight kicking.

[liz]

None of the three had huge games but they all presented well.

Jesse's first half, in particular, was very promising even though he didn't comvert (which generally hasn't been his problem). I also liked Jesse's efforts in the ruck. He looked like he was doing more than just putting his body in the contest. He was actually trying to direct the taps to his midfielders.

I had Spangher written off half way through the season. He was recruited as a back-up defender, couldn't get his body right, and then young Johnson lept out of the blocks much quicker than anyone could have anticipated. But ever since being moved to the forward line for the reserves, he seems to be really relishing his second chance at AFL footy. He possibly won't ever be more than just handy, but he certainly competed well today, especially in the second half.

[longmile]

I had Spangher written off half way through the season. He was recruited as a back-up defender, couldn't get his body right, and then young Johnson lept out of the blocks much quicker than anyone could have anticipated. But ever since being moved to the forward line for the reserves, he seems to be really relishing his second chance at AFL footy. He possibly won't ever be more than just handy, but he certainly competed well today, especially in the second half.

He gets my thumbs up. His goal-assist kick to Hanneberry was nothing short of superb off a single step.

[ernie koala]

None of the three had huge games but they all presented well.

Jesse's first half, in particular, was very promising even though he didn't comvert (which generally hasn't been his problem). I also liked Jesse's efforts in the ruck. He looked like he was doing more than just putting his body in the contest. He was actually trying to direct the taps to his midfielders.

I had Spangher written off half way through the season. He was recruited as a back-up defender, couldn't get his body right, and then young Johnson lept out of the blocks much quicker than anyone could have anticipated. But ever since being moved to the forward line for the reserves, he seems to be really relishing his second chance at AFL footy. He possibly won't ever be more than just handy, but he certainly competed well today, especially in the second half.

I agree on both counts, White had a really good all round game, except converting, but as you say that's not normally a weakness for him.
I didn't think Spangher was a good selection but his second half was more than serviceable, particually after he hurt his shoulder, it was a gutsy effort.
I also thought Jetta had his best game for the year, he chased and tackled well, and got some good touches in the second half.
That's 2 to the selectors...... 0 to me.

[BSA5]

None of the three had huge games but they all presented well.

Jesse's first half, in particular, was very promising even though he didn't comvert (which generally hasn't been his problem). I also liked Jesse's efforts in the ruck. He looked like he was doing more than just putting his body in the contest. He was actually trying to direct the taps to his midfielders.

I had Spangher written off half way through the season. He was recruited as a back-up defender, couldn't get his body right, and then young Johnson lept out of the blocks much quicker than anyone could have anticipated. But ever since being moved to the forward line for the reserves, he seems to be really relishing his second chance at AFL footy. He possibly won't ever be more than just handy, but he certainly competed well today, especially in the second half.

Absolutely. White was really impressive, and I think we can all forgive him his misses since he's usually a pretty straight kick. Showed a lot though. I still think that right now, Pyke is probably a better option is a ruckman and second forward, so long as he can get fit, but Jesse showed a bit.

As for Spang, not a huge game, and you're right, he probably won't be anything more than handy, but god he has a dip. He reminds me of a Roman Centurion with that hooked nose and strut. I think I may be developing a bit of a man-crush.

[Bloody Hell]

BUMP

Rather than write a rant on the value of having LRT in the forward line I figured it was easier to bump this thread.

[DeadlyAkkuret]

I used to want Rohan in the midfield, but now I see we need him up forward.

Rohan Reid Goodes

McGlynn Spangher TDL

Something like that would be worth trying.

[Bloody Hell]

I used to want Rohan in the midfield, but now I see we need him up forward.

Rohan Reid Goodes

McGlynn Spangher TDL

Something like that would be worth trying.

I agree with Rohan and think he3 has the capability to be an awesome FF once he bulks up.

He's the only one whose goal kicking routine looks like a forwards.

[Hartijon]

Given the success of Kennedy ,I would like Goodes to play 1/2 forward the way ROK used to roaming far and wide but basically a forward.TDL /Gordon or Lamb into the side and kept for at least 5 games to kick a few.

[Auntie.Gerald]

forward structure:

I watched our forward structure like a hawk tonight.........

I realise that some supporters will be frustrated with our kick it long approach, but this is only half of the mins of the game.......the rest of the game we have a tremendous amount of different leads and I am liking our switches to fast small forwards leading into the space as a small FF with a foot race one vs one to goal.............ala Jetts

Reality is that kick it long approach allows us to move upfield and then forward press the other team ie control the field position which in turn helps our backline.

We still do not have a top 4 nor top6 counter attack backline that will dominate movements from the backs to the forwards via hand and or short sharp passing

For now I feel happy with our faster players like Rohan, Goodes, Jetts etc being loose one on one in the forward line and for us to play 50% of the game bombing it long for field position and then the other 50% of the game building our advantage of smalls leading and Reid dummy leads etc to open up one on one space for the smalls

This brand of footy is appropriate for a team that is nipping at top6 to top4...............i believe that is still where we are at right now.........but mid season onwards lets reassess

Parks and Rohan getting knocked out cold definitely had an effect on timing and positioning last night.........they will be better next week

Rohan appeared to also do his ankle and wasnt running freely from the get go last night

[ScottH]

I think the trouble with our forward structure is the delivery (as always).
Jetta to LRT was about the only one that was put out in front of the leading forward.
Reid, had his hands been a bit sticky, would have taken many marks, but most of them were under pressure as teh ball was not out in front of him.

We still seem to kick to the player, than to the space in front of the player.