Our Forward Line Depth and future Sucess

[scolsey22]

I have been doing a bit of reading this week with Jesse coming into the team and everyone has an opinion on him, so I thought I would stack up his performance to one of our best ever Barry Hall. Jesse has played 57 games for 54 goals an average of 0.94. Out of those 57 games he has played roughly 35 games give or take a couple as secondary ruckman. In the remaining 22 games games where he hasn't spent a considerable amount of time in the ruck he has kicked 39 goals an average of 1.7 goals a game .

In Barry Halls first 57 games at St Kilda in which he played as a forward he kicked 65 goals. Good for an average of 1.1 goals a game. Barry finished his career with 259 games and 746 goals at 2.8 goals a game.

Sam Reids stats are similar to barry, Reid has played 55 games for 61 goals an average of 1.1.

Not to be left out is the new kid on the block Kurt Tippet. Who from 57 games had 101 goals good for an average of 1.7. The same as Jesse White totals as a predominately forward player. In Tippetts entire career he has 104 games and 188 goals. Which is good for 1.8 goals a game.

I think i've shown here that if Jesse is played as a forward that he can definitely have success, he has almost the same goals average as tippett when he does play as a forward, now Tippett last year did spend time in the ruck so breaking it down that way tippett is a more well rounded player in that he can play forward and ruck and still kick 4-5 goals as he did on a few occasions last year. Jesse though as we have seen has the ability to do this at reserves level but hasnt proven it at seniors. But as a forward line player Jesse has shown that through the stats provided he could be a 35+ goal kicker for the swans a year. My ideal situation would be Tippett at FF and Reid at CHF, but if either of these men go down having Jesse there as a replacement is a necessity or even if the added height could be useful in a game.

All of our three young key forwards have a similar or greater goal average than Barry at that exact point in their careers. Now Barry matured and went on to have great sucess winning our Leading Goal kicker 7 years in a row if we can continue to get the games into Reid and give White a chance to build confidence in the seniors the way we did for Hall then whats to stop them from becoming 3+ goal a game players. If we can keep these 3 for the next 7-10 years and if they can mature in similar ways to the Barry halls of the world then we have the world at our feet for the forseeable future

[Chookbilly]

You've just set yourself up for a world of pain

[GordonS]

i have a guilty soft spot for jesse, much like i did for dennis-lane. for some reason i seem to like the battlers

[Bloody Hell]

I was always a fan, but gave up the last couple of years, basically since they've been focusing him on the ruck.

The Swans have treated him badly in the way they've managed him, not giving him a run at it and the one off games he gets as a forward are usually in horrific conditions that the best of key forwards would struggle in.

His problems aren't what he does with ball in hand. It's what he does without the ball. The biggest ball watcher I've seen at this level, and when I see snippetts of him in the ressies I see it there. The trait can be an asset for a full forward, but not a ruckman.

If he's given a run at the FF spot, no doubt he could be valuable. But he won't get the chance at Sydney.

There will undoubtedly be interest and I will bet he is a Lion next year.

[wolftone57]

I think Jesse could do quite well if given a couple of games. It is much harder for a key position player or ruck to come in and make an impact. There is more pressure on them for a start even before the ball is bounced. As us short people know it takes longer for a thought to transmit to the relevant places in a tall person than a shorter person. This isn't to say tall people are stupid we know that isn't true. But by the time the thought gets to the leg to kick the ball that little bastard has moved again. This could also explain Sam's problems in front of goal too much time to think and the thoughts all get confused on the way down. See this is physics, all that space and time and a mixing of the probabilities and whallah! Confusion.

[linko]

There is no doubt that he has the attributes... I really like the way he attacks the ball but he seems to go missing, probably because of the fact that he is usually played as a bits player and that is difficult to do, see Dre's efforts when he is not given a specific role. I really hope for his sake, as well as the teams, he gets amongst it and hits the scoreboard tomorrow.

[aardvark]

2009 = 18 games
2010 = 20 games
2011 = 13 games until they got fed up with him.
2012 = 3 games
I think two and a half years of consistent opportunities is a pretty decent opportunity to prove yourself. Not many people get as many chances in life.

Most disposals = 14 Rnd 21 2009 v Collingwood.
Most Goals = 4 Rnd 16 2009 V Carlton.

[scolsey22]

He had two years of consistent games not all as a forward and kicked 42 goals. In 2011 he kicked 6 goals in the first 3 games and had a couple quiet games and was dropped. When he returned he played 7 games as second ruckman and since then he has been treated as a second ruckman not a forward. LRT took on the second tall forward role alongside Reid last year. The year before that Spangher. It was a waste of time though in the fact that over one and a half years where jesse could have developed into a 100 game player with experience and confidence we opted for Spangher now at the Hawks, Everitt who is in defence and LRT who has been shifted back to defence before his injury. This was the point of the thread in that we need to get games into these players because apart from the buddy franklins it takes more than 50 senior games for key forwards to find there feet no matter the age.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Scolsey appreciate the research

like so many "emerging" key forwards, backs or ruckman they are a work in progress and some shoot the lights out overtime and some fall into the abyss !

Yes that is a generalisation but it isnt far off the mark.....and I think it is fair to say that stand out more for better or worse ie in the midfield sometimes it is hard to work out who had more impact on a game ie did ROK really have 14 tackles today which made more of an impact to Jacks 30 disposals ??

Ted Richards, Mike Pyke, Heath Grundy, LRT are great examples of persistent training and development and a massive payoff at the end !

Jesse White, membrey and Incy could also replicate the same years of development with a fantastic result .........or not !

Timing is everything and a key player injury or two can also open up the world to an emerging player via forced senior game time etc

my gut feeling is Jesse really really fades in and out of games..........if he overtime can become more of a 4 qtr player the world is at his feet !

Hawkins, Tippett and Cloke on their day when emerging through the ranks could be as ordinary as anyone - now that appears to be history and they are regarded as key players vital to team performance !

[scolsey22]

Exactly people need to develop, ted was in and out at 28 and look how he is. Gets a run of games and now all australian defender. This is the frustrating thing now in that Jesse could play a really solid game but next game tippett and reid come back and jesse would be the first one out. The game this week is more about jesses career than might be his only senior chance to round 13-finals because with reid and tippett fit it may be his only chance to prove to longmire or other clubs he belongs at AFL level. And with reid out he gets a chance to be our focal point and see how he handles the pressure.

[Ludwig]

Better to save the commentary about Jesse until after the game rather than before the game.

[Auntie.Gerald]

ouch

enthusiasm's
enthusiasm's

as Al Capone once said :)

[dimelb]

Better to save the commentary about Jesse until after the game rather than before the game.

That's not the way we do things here!

[Simo]

Jessie is our best kick. We forgive others for having played 300 games and still kick out on the full or try tricked up handballs. Andre... Get a hair cut, if your hair is more important than the bloods jumper....turn it up.
Jesse needs to play against the experienced players to learn what he has to do. ATM he's the best kid in primary school. Give him a go..he can play. More than Walsh, ....lrt was our worse for years...now one of our fave. Jw is only 24/5
Big men are handy.

I know I'm a new by but I have been a swans man for 34 yrs. Melbourne based, love the old swans , love the new swans.

Thanks

[swansrob]

Always had a bit of a soft spot for Jesse. Part of me wants him to play really well on Saturday and then for Reid to not be 100% for the Port game, giving Jesse another game, this time alongside Tippett. I fully expect Reid to come straight back in when fit (and agree he's a much better player than White), but I'd just like for White to show what he's capable of. I don't expect him to be on our list next year, but I would like to him on someone's.

[barry]

Lrt overtook white because of defensive pressure. Thats what modern footy is all about.

[dimelb]

If Jesse had LRT's determination and focus we wouldn't have gone shopping for a power forward.

[scolsey22]

Better to save the commentary about Jesse until after the game rather than before the game.

After the game this weekend I will hopefully be able to re title the thread Jesse The White Knight

[Alan]

The problem for Jesse is that he is shorter than most ruckmen and taller than most forwards. So he is bracketed as a pinch hitting relief ruckmen who rests at FF. How well does he have to play to be considered to have played his role? The trade to the Crows would have been the best thing for all concerned. I saw him play against Wet Toast at Subiaco a few years ago and he was very good. IMO


Good luck Jesse I hope you really give the coaches something to think about today.

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The problem for Jesse is that he is shorter than most ruckmen and taller than most forwards. So he is bracketed as a pinch hitting relief ruckmen who rests at FF. How well does he have to play to be considered to have played his role? The trade to the Crows would have been the best thing for all concerned. I saw him play against Wet Toast at Subiaco a few years ago and he was very good. IMO


Good luck Jesse I hope you really give the coaches something to think about today.

[Pmcc2911]

Good point Alan, I saw Jesse at a kids game a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised at how small he is (relativity speaking), I would have thought he is even too short to be a back up ruck man. So good on him for being a good back up ruck man let alone a Key forward.

[wolftone57]

I think he is far too short for today's ruck. In today's game even 2nd rucks are over 200 cm. Roughy is one of the few under and the Hawks were using him because they had to not because they wanted to. His value is as a permanent forward. Most sides have gotten over the idea that you can't play two real rucks because of the Sub. The majority are playing a second specialist ruck who can kick a goal or two. Jesse doe not fir this because he is too short. I think he could be a very good forward or a forward used in the mids occasionally to break the packs, he is very good sat that. I have seen him in the Twos break through all the players in the centre square and set the play going into our forward line. he literally was still running with three players hanging off him.

[Auntie.Gerald]

most guys 200cm cant jump and i think it would be fair to say that Jessie only 3cm shorter then most 200cm ruckman

he was 197cm every other year except this year he shrank back to 196cm

he is 102kg and for me he can do ruck and FF both reasonably well..........still along way to go though and here is Jesse's opportunity !

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most guys 200cm cant jump and i think it would be fair to say that Jessie only 3cm shorter then most 200cm ruckman

he was 197cm every other year except this year he shrank back to 196cm

he is 102kg and for me he can do ruck and FF both reasonably well..........still along way to go though and here is Jesse's opportunity !

[Bloodthirsty]

There's no doubt that the selection panel have shown far, far more persistence with many other players than they have with Jesse White. Imagine dropping Jetta early on because he 'can't kick a goal', or Reid because he gets out-muscled or Mummy because he often has games where he does nothing, or LRT cos, you know.... Some people would've just liked Jesse to be managed better, cos we could've been staring at a highly effective forward by now. I think it's all extra strange cos we've lived without one since Hall left. White is an awesome kick, great physique.

We'll see what happens today.

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There's no doubt that the selection panel have shown far, far more persistence with many other players than they have with Jesse White. Imagine dropping Jetta early on because he 'can't kick a goal', or Reid because he gets out-muscled or Mummy because he often has games where he does nothing, or LRT cos, you know.... Some people would've just liked Jesse to be managed better, cos we could've been staring at a highly effective forward by now. I think it's all extra strange cos we've lived without one since Hall left. White is an awesome kick, great physique.

We'll see what happens today.

[Auntie.Gerald]

in the words of Simple Minds

our forward line and our forward line options are "Alive and Kicking"

Simple Minds - Alive And Kicking - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIQo1OHkTI)

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in the words of Simple Minds

our forward line and our forward line options are "Alive and Kicking"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIQo1OHkTI

[scolsey22]

As i Said with the proper opportunity he could be a good player. He proved that today with 3.1, a few score involvements and some good play around the ball. Hopefully gets another crack in 2 weeks

[dimelb]

The irony of the situation was not lost on the locals:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/jesse-white-compounds-the-adelaide-crows8217-pain-in-capitulation-to-sydney-swans/story-e6frecoc-1226660610565

[Ajn]

Unfortunately Jesse will go need to go elsewhere, good news for Swans is the stocks have gone up

[Alan]

Jesse kicked that fantastic goal from right in front of me. His value in the market will have shot up, no doubt, a great result for the big fella. He also used his body much more tonight to shepherd and block for team mates. And when Mummy was subbed out he was rucking to help out Pike. All of a sudden he is Mr. Versatile. Also have to make mention of two great marks taken by Luke Parker one also, right in front of me, when he was being tightly marked by Scott Thompson who is no slouch.

[Bloodthirsty]

Just gotta see how the rest of the year plays out. White has clearly made a decision to work harder and show unrelenting determination, and if there was any way we could keep him, I hope that we would. However I would think that $-wise a team like Brisbane would put more on the table than we would. The irony now is that for all his hard work, his fate now depends on luck, with injuries to KPPs the only thing likely to guarantee that he's a permanent fixture.

I really enjoyed watching him play though. It was as though he was our regular big forward. I wonder what would've happened if we had put equal time, effort and game time into White and Reid.

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Just gotta see how the rest of the year plays out. White has clearly made a decision to work harder and show unrelenting determination, and if there was any way we could keep him, I hope that we would. However I would think that $-wise a team like Brisbane would put more on the table than we would. The irony now is that for all his hard work, his fate now depends on luck, with injuries to KPPs the only thing likely to guarantee that he's a permanent fixture.

I really enjoyed watching him play though. It was as though he was our regular big forward. I wonder what would've happened if we had put equal time, effort and game time into White and Reid.

[Triple B]

Sydney have shown in the past that they are prepared to let players go to seek better opportunities when they are not guaranteed a spot in the seniors. I guess somewhere down the line it may bite us on the ass, but it's that attitude of doing not only what is best for the club but trying to look after players who have given good service to the club but not quite cemented their spot a chance to blossom elsewhere.

It's what makes our club great and I have no doubt it helps when it comes to negotiating with players and their managers who know that the Swans aren't just in there to stitch somebody up and all their dealings are fair and honest...

[Auntie.Gerald]

I still think there is room for Tippett, Reid and White in the forward line especially with the TIP or Jesse rotating thru the ruck with mike or Mummy !

Goodes can still play half the game as a HFF or midfield if the others are playing very well !

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I still think there is room for Tippett, Reid and White in the forward line especially with the TIP or Jesse rotating thru the ruck with mike or Mummy !

Goodes can still play half the game as a HFF or midfield if the others are playing very well !

[Bloodthirsty]

AG who would you drop though? I'm not prepared to drop Morton.

[Ludwig]

It will be interesting to see how the likely combination of Pyke, Tippett, White and Morton work out in 2 weeks time, and then what happens when Reid and Mummy return.

[Cheer_Cheer]

I really hope we can keep White.. Pyke doesn't have that many years left unfortunately.. Mummy may leave and seems to be injury prone.. If both Pyke and Mummy were out at the same time we would be thanking our lucky stars to have White as backup.. I think letting him go would be a decision we would regret..

[Melbournehammer]

interesting isnt it because four weeks ago we were moaning about the forward line.

i do think morton improves the forward line immensely.

[Jewels]

Still haven't lost a game with Morton in the starting line up :clap:

[aardvark]

Still haven't lost a game with Morton in the starting line up :clap:

:clap: Go Mitch you good thing!