Is the Sydney Competition the strongest it has ever been?

[Tom Wills]

IMO the standard of the Sydney AFL Competition has increased exponentially over the last 5 years.

Having watched a number of Division 3, 4 and 5 games I can�t believe the overall depth we have today.

While there may be a valid argument over the quality of the Premier Division, particularly the bottom 3, IMO the standard of the lower Divisions is incredible high - the highest it has ever been. I have seen a couple of Division 3 games and they would be on par with the old SFA. I have even seen a few Division 4 / 5 games and thought where are the weak players - this is good footy and its Div 5!. The standard was incredibly high.
What are your thoughts?

P.S. Pekay - what are your thoughts. Having lost to Syd Uni in Div 3 how do they compare to teams of 5 to 10 years past.

[Pekay]

IMO the standard of the Sydney AFL Competition has increased exponentially over the last 5 years.

Having watched a number of Division 3, 4 and 5 games I can�t believe the overall depth we have today.

While there may be a valid argument over the quality of the Premier Division, particularly the bottom 3, IMO the standard of the lower Divisions is incredible high - the highest it has ever been. I have seen a couple of Division 3 games and they would be on par with the old SFA. I have even seen a few Division 4 / 5 games and thought where are the weak players - this is good footy and its Div 5!. The standard was incredibly high.
What are your thoughts?

P.S. Pekay - what are your thoughts. Having lost to Syd Uni in Div 3 how do they compare to teams of 5 to 10 years past.

Mate I've hung the boots up this year, busy with a newborn draft pick at home. Haven't seen any footy this year at all, but going off last year's Div 3 games, when we played the top teams like Penrith, Penno, Randwick, and the year before with Blacktown in that grade, I think it's comparable to SFA footy, reasonable pace and tough contests. Fair assessment. Div 2 in 2012 was also quite strong, I'm still sore from that season.

[justabaraker]

I've seen the bottom three in PD this year and I would say that all three are stronger than the bottom three were, a few years ago. In fact I could see our PD going the way of the AFL where any team could roll any other on a given day.
I've caught moments of lower div footy this year and it's hard to comment on the standard of the footy from the little that I've seen. But it does seem that the guys look in better physical shape than lower div teams were a few years ago.

We've been through this in other years but I doubt that the top PD teams now are as strong as the top teams were in the past. Perhaps Baulko circa 2015 with its two man mountains from the NEAFL might be comparable.
But those of us with long memories can go back to the days when top-liners would come to Sydney from other states to play for serious money and those teams were seriously good - I'm thinking of Balmain under Birdy, and Campbelltown when the Army barracks were nearby. Or Wests under Ron Thomas.

...or maybe it's just that the older I get, the better they were...........

[Coastal Boy]

I agree the overall standard is quite high, however IMO the premier division would have to be at an all time low.

The reasons for this are numerous.

Firstly, the number of PD teams(when known as the old SFL first grade) was always 8 but has recently increased. Sure, this year is only 9 but recently Balmain, Wollongong and Campbelltown made it 12 before their demise and this dilution I doubt has been re-concentrated this year.

Secondly, first division is definitely stronger....but at the expense of PD. Many players good enough for PD are happy to support their local Div1 and 2 clubs. I suggest more than in years past.

Thirdly, the club player payment budgets I can only guess are a fraction of years gone. Some of the cashed up clubs of the early 90s would spend $100k+ on annual player payments. This would attract interstate players from all over the country. Less money attracts less imports.

Fourthly, the introduction of the afl draft and list numbers being capped has influenced the local league. When the Swans reserves could attract and invite anyone to do a preseason, lots of hopefuls who eventually were cut would filter into the local competition. Ex-swans reserve graders who were not from Sydney would get local jobs and play locally. Now there are more accessible options and pathways in comps like the WAFL and VFL.

Fifthly, the NEAFL now attracts not only the best local talent but any interstate talent who move to Sydney for such things as work. I've previously read on this forum that Sydney Hills and Sydney Uni have not pillaged the local comp....but how many of their players were actively recruited from interstate and how many were coming to Sydney anyway...and thus would have filtered into the local comp?

Sixthly, good young players who miss out on being drafted have better access to the pathway competitions like the WAFL and VFL so the PD would be losing more young players than 20+ years ago.

In summary, football overall in Sydney is definitely better than pre-80s. But the introduction and rise of the swans, Giants, neafl and lower divisions combined with AFL rules on pathway competitions and drafting has lowered the standard of the PD. I am sure there are positive changes such as increased numbers which I have neglected to mention but they are not sufficient to negate the negatives. Just my opinion.

[Mug Punter]

I agree the overall standard is quite high, however IMO the premier division would have to be at an all time low.

The reasons for this are numerous.

Firstly, the number of PD teams(when known as the old SFL first grade) was always 8 but has recently increased. Sure, this year is only 9 but recently Balmain, Wollongong and Campbelltown made it 12 before their demise and this dilution I doubt has been re-concentrated this year.

Secondly, first division is definitely stronger....but at the expense of PD. Many players good enough for PD are happy to support their local Div1 and 2 clubs. I suggest more than in years past.

Thirdly, the club player payment budgets I can only guess are a fraction of years gone. Some of the cashed up clubs of the early 90s would spend $100k+ on annual player payments. This would attract interstate players from all over the country. Less money attracts less imports.

Fourthly, the introduction of the afl draft and list numbers being capped has influenced the local league. When the Swans reserves could attract and invite anyone to do a preseason, lots of hopefuls who eventually were cut would filter into the local competition. Ex-swans reserve graders who were not from Sydney would get local jobs and play locally. Now there are more accessible options and pathways in comps like the WAFL and VFL.

Fifthly, the NEAFL now attracts not only the best local talent but any interstate talent who move to Sydney for such things as work. I've previously read on this forum that Sydney Hills and Sydney Uni have not pillaged the local comp....but how many of their players were actively recruited from interstate and how many were coming to Sydney anyway...and thus would have filtered into the local comp?

Sixthly, good young players who miss out on being drafted have better access to the pathway competitions like the WAFL and VFL so the PD would be losing more young players than 20+ years ago.

In summary, football overall in Sydney is definitely better than pre-80s. But the introduction and rise of the swans, Giants, neafl and lower divisions combined with AFL rules on pathway competitions and drafting has lowered the standard of the PD. I am sure there are positive changes such as increased numbers which I have neglected to mention but they are not sufficient to negate the negatives. Just my opinion.

An excellent summation

[felix]

The Sydney football competition may be better in some areas but to have 3 Under 19 teams forfeit their games last weekend is a terrible thing to have happen.
Only one game was played in Div 2 U19s because of this. A couple of others are also struggling to field teams each week.
Where will it end?

[Mug Punter]

The Sydney football competition may be better in some areas but to have 3 Under 19 teams forfeit their games last weekend is a terrible thing to have happen.
Only one game was played in Div 2 U19s because of this. A couple of others are also struggling to field teams each week.
Where will it end?

That is a damning statistic - in the 80s and 90s all SFA Teams had u20s and along with the SFL u19s.

Not sure what the answer is......

[tara]

MP your right it is a damming statistic. The league continues to make decisions based upon Victorian opinions on the best way forward in regards to junior development. Until they put someone in charge (in particular Western Sydney) who understands the landscape and makes decisions based on their understanding of the region and not one of which is self serving we will continue to see a decline in junior footballers progressing through to senior football.

[Coastal Boy]

Speaking of failing under age competitions, the entire u/18s in the BDAFL went pear shaped a few years ago. That's right, the whole u/18s competition folded and is gone. Also, the Central Coast junior competition moved to Sunday's to resurrect falling numbers. Whilst improvements in AFL in NSW are evident it ain't all roses.

[unconfuseme]

Speaking of failing under age competitions, the entire u/18s in the BDAFL went pear shaped a few years ago. That's right, the whole u/18s competition folded and is gone. Also, the Central Coast junior competition moved to Sunday's to resurrect falling numbers. Whilst improvements in AFL in NSW are evident it ain't all roses.

The whole AFL Sydney Junior comp was moved to Sunday ... a clear concession that they do not know how to get kids to play AFL in preference to soccer ... and it has not made any difference - massive failure.

Tara hit the nail on the head - not an original notion between the lot of them, they just do what they do in Victoria, which doesn't work up here, and then go out of their way to disenfranchise their only assets, the volunteers WHO DO KNOW!

[Pekay]

The difference between Sydney and melbourne for kids sport is simple - choice.

My old man played for Newtown Jets in the 50s and 60s, dyed in the wool rugby league man. When the Jets lost the GF in 82 (?) and were kicked out the following year, he gave up on RL completely, and took my older brother down to Ashley Brown Oval to play for Seven Hills AFC. 4 more boys followed. Because he had a choice of sports to pick!

[saviour01]

And St George weren't allowed to have a second 19s side...

I honestly don't see ECE being beaten this year (yes I know Manly got them in round 1).

[tara]

And St George weren't allowed to have a second 19s side...

I honestly don't see ECE being beaten this year (yes I know Manly got them in round 1).

Whats your point?

St George openly acknowledged in their meeting with the league when they presented their case to the region would not support at least one or Moorebank, Campbelltown or Southern Powers under 19's in 2016. The league didnt support it because the growth was not sustainable and they wouldnt allow it at the expense of one or more of the existing clubs under 19's programs. Round one saw the Saints use under 17's to get the numbers due to factors that affected availability. Given that is a fact how were they going to field a team in round one that wouldnt have impacted upon results in their PD team?

We fight hard every week to get a team on the paddock due to the numbers in the region. Going to Sundays didnt help and neither the move to under 19's that saw junior clubs in a struggle year forced to drop out of 17's the following year. What should be happening is a public strategic plan that engages all clubs in Sydney that utilises their combined experience to help develop the game and keep kids engaged.

I dont hide behind what appears to be an alias here and keep my identity a secret. Anyone with half a brain knows that Tara is my eldest daughters name and that I am the President of Moorebank. Anyone that knows me knows that I want to see growth in our game and am prepared to work with other clubs to ensure it. St George were like a lot of clubs who did the usual interaction with juniors until we came along and got really engaged. To their credit the academy was born because they realised that no amount of money builds a sustainable future for long term success. What does is a continuous pathway of juniors who identify with a senior club who has shown through their actions they are committed to their development.

Any of the other President in the region know my stance on the game. For myself I would love to see a thriving junior competition throughout Sydney that allowed for multiple under 19's team. I openly communicate to other clubs about my thoughts and when I respond to the governing powers about issues that affect all of us.

How about rather than take pot shots or make snide remarks suggest something that benefits they overall game moving forward.

[Pmcc2911]

I think we possibly have a East/North vs West divide. With respect to juniors, a lot of kids in the East/North play school sport on a Saturday, so if juniors in the East was played on Saturday the numbers would be decimated.
Likewise in the West where junior league is played on Sunday's the battle for numbers is tough, if junior AFL was played on Saturday the battle for numbers may be easier.
I know those comments are gross generalisations but I believe the sentiment to,be sound.
The change from u/18's to u/19's has seen a big drop off in numbers, simply because of timing.
Kids who are turning 18, are typically in yr 12 (HSC time, pressure to study etc)
Having been involved with u/17 team for the last couple of years I have seen a number of good players just stop playing the year after they finish u/17's. The guns and the serious players still play but the mid level guys stop.
Hopefully they take it up again when they finish school.

[cartman48]

Whats your point?

St George openly acknowledged in their meeting with the league when they presented their case to the region would not support at least one or Moorebank, Campbelltown or Southern Powers under 19's in 2016. The league didnt support it because the growth was not sustainable and they wouldnt allow it at the expense of one or more of the existing clubs under 19's programs. Round one saw the Saints use under 17's to get the numbers due to factors that affected availability. Given that is a fact how were they going to field a team in round one that wouldnt have impacted upon results in their PD team?

We fight hard every week to get a team on the paddock due to the numbers in the region. Going to Sundays didnt help and neither the move to under 19's that saw junior clubs in a struggle year forced to drop out of 17's the following year. What should be happening is a public strategic plan that engages all clubs in Sydney that utilises their combined experience to help develop the game and keep kids engaged.

I dont hide behind what appears to be an alias here and keep my identity a secret. Anyone with half a brain knows that Tara is my eldest daughters name and that I am the President of Moorebank. Anyone that knows me knows that I want to see growth in our game and am prepared to work with other clubs to ensure it. St George were like a lot of clubs who did the usual interaction with juniors until we came along and got really engaged. To their credit the academy was born because they realised that no amount of money builds a sustainable future for long term success. What does is a continuous pathway of juniors who identify with a senior club who has shown through their actions they are committed to their development.

Any of the other President in the region know my stance on the game. For myself I would love to see a thriving junior competition throughout Sydney that allowed for multiple under 19's team. I openly communicate to other clubs about my thoughts and when I respond to the governing powers about issues that affect all of us.

How about rather than take pot shots or make snide remarks suggest something that benefits they overall game moving forward.

Amen Tara

[saviour01]

Moorebanks turn to forfeit this week in the u19s. Will cambletown and southern power go back to back forfeits? If both teams forfeit in a game, does it count as a draw? Good thing saints didn't get that second side....

[tara]

Moorebanks turn to forfeit this week in the u19s. Will cambletown and southern power go back to back forfeits? If both teams forfeit in a game, does it count as a draw? Good thing saints didn't get that second side....


we forfeit for the first time in seven years due to player safety. For an educated person you seem to find it hard to answer a questions but rather take cheappot shots. Thank god my kids arnt being educated by someone like your self - god knows what they would learn from you. One thing is apparent your are all about feathering your own nest at the expense of development - something to be admired in a teacher.

[saviour01]

so did cambletown and southern power have a game?

[King Zog]

I was shocked when I was told Moorebank U/19's forfeited today, while I know it is partially due to a long injury list it is also due to a lack U/17's.

This forfeit is a direct consequence of the GSJ rubbing out Bankstown Junior AFL.
Next year Moorebank will probably not be able to field an U/19 side nor will Campbelltown and Penrith will also probably struggle.

Congratulations GSJ Board on your vision and foresight to eliminate this junior club which was soooooooo obviously obstructing the growth of the game.

[andreww1]

As the person responsible for St. George requesting a second U19 team in 2015 it is completely false to say that we submitted a plan based on Power, Moorebank, or Campbelltown not being able to field an U 19s team in 2016. We submitted a list of 73 first year u19s from Sydney South clubs that we were approaching to add to our existing u19s to easily fill 2 teams with players still left over for other clubs. When the AFL rejected our application we obviously pulled back on approaching all these players. I checked last week and of the 73 ex junior players 41 are not playing afl this year. So it is not just st george that have missed out on these players, but sydney afl have lost them as well. Regrettably only a small number went to other clubs in the area as the afl expected, most just switched to another sport.
We have worked for the last 2 years supporting and engaging with junior clubs, players, and parents in our area via the Academy and other initiatives, which is why we have a strong u19s squad. As we don't pay any senior players to play for us we rely totally on our junior clubs to stay strong. I am sure if other senior clubs adopted the same approach then they would not be struggling for u19 players now.

[Tom Wills]

I dont have a comment about St George and the second under 19 team, but I do have a general view about when Sydney AFL refuses a team. From what I have seen AFL players in Sydney do not travel or change clubs. From Under 19s to Div 5 team or Premier Division and Division 2 teams - when a club drops a team players do not travel to other clubs. This, IMO, is that players have a stronger allegiance to a club than the game of AFL. In other footy states if your club folds, or even if you can't get a game you change clubs... because you love footy, probably as much or more that your club.

The example of St George not being allowed a second sides looks like a Vic approach to footy; assuming players will just go to another club... which as I said is just not the case. I am not associated with St George, but have seen this across many clubs ie North Shore dropping Div 5 added no players to other clubs.

If you check my posts I have never bagged Sydney AFL, but I agree with many, that the Southern state approach to how AFL in Sydney should be run is hurting the game, not helping it.

[unconfuseme]

^correct(clap)

... and still they don't understand why they can't get a Bankstown junior team together, in any age group, that is willing to travel 3 and 4 hour round trips for a game on a Sunday ... go figure!:hmmm

Based on the St George and Bankstown experience, it would seem that the policy is to leave it alone until the game starts to flourish in a particular area ... then interfere and do whatever is possible to kill the game off ... dumb asses

[unconfuseme]

It's hard to see where the u/19's will come from in the future if the AFL continues in this way.

In Western Sydney GSJ, there are a grand total of 52 competitive junior teams from u/11's to u/17's (hardly "competitive" if you want to look at some of the results!) ... IF every team had 30 players, that is 1,500 players from a population of over 2 million.

Panania RSL Soccer club (who could soon absorb Kelso North AFL ground for soccer) has over 800 registered players, and is just one of 21 soccer clubs in the Bankstown Association.

... pats on the back all round AFL!!!(five)

[Footy Barista]

Off topic in regards to the above but can any who has been around long enough tell me if North shore have ever won the spoon ?

[Pekay]

Off topic in regards to the above but can any who has been around long enough tell me if North shore have ever won the spoon ?


I reckon if they won a spoon, it'd be sterling silver.

[Norris Lurker]

Off topic in regards to the above but can any who has been around long enough tell me if North shore have ever won the spoon ?

They probably have, but not for a very long time.

Edit - Went through the records. Their last was in 1996.

[felix]

Disappointing to be told that Balmain has pulled out of the Under 19 Div 2 competition as of this week. Leaves only 7 teams in the competition with most of them struggling to field full squads.
We only have 14 clubs fielding teams in Under 19 football in Sydney, (Penno have teams in both Divisions). Somewhere between 300 and 350 participants at this age in Australia's most populated city leaves a lot to be desired. The success of Swans and GWS is masking some real problems at grass roots level.

[tara]

The transition from under 18s to under 19's has really hurt the competition. Who knows the reasoning for it initially however I suspect someone happy to point out KPIS in junior retention in justifying their existence may be to blame.

For clubs in areas that struggle with 18/19's the problem but raising the age has only accentuated the issue. How many kids in the last year of 19's have taken a trade and are now required to work Sat Mornings? If they had moved to senior footy in almost all grades the earliest they would play is 12 generally. I have lost a number of kids for the year due to this and every week its hit a miss depending on start times. Happy for people to say Im wrong if they use something to support their arguments.

[Pmcc2911]

I am sure a big part of it is the transistion from 18's to 19's.
First of year out of 17's a lot of kids are doing HSC etc.
But also if you track the fall off from 12's though the age groups the numbers decline each year.
I think you will see a pick up in 19's numbers next year as the kids who are in the "second" year of the age transition come back to the fold.
Also I have noticed the rugby clubs have dramatically raised their recruiting efforts for their colts (U/20's) teams, our clubs need to take leaf out of their books.

[Coastal Boy]

I suspect the change from u18s to u19s had something to do with the AFL draft. Back in the 90s the SydneyAFL played an u19s competition however if I recall correctly it was altered to the u18s to come in line with the other states and the national championships and thus the draft. I can only assume the AFL is considering lifting the draft age(rumours) and thus the change back to U19s.
Whilst it obviously affected Riverview's participation in the SydneyAFL I would have thought it would be a positive move for the game....it seems not though.
There's a real problem when a junior competition with 6 or 8 teams cannot funnel enough players into a single u19s team to field a team with plenty to spare.
The old u19s competition was viable....I suspect the forces at work hear are not all age related.
If I am correct and the AFL draft has something to do with it, there will be nothing to change it anytime soon.
I advocate an introduction of u20s or 21s. Give the young guys more time with others their own age before playing seniors.

[Pmcc2911]

I suspect the change from u18s to u19s had something to do with the AFL draft. Back in the 90s the SydneyAFL played an u19s competition however if I recall correctly it was altered to the u18s to come in line with the other states and the national championships and thus the draft. I can only assume the AFL is considering lifting the draft age(rumours) and thus the change back to U19s.
Whilst it obviously affected Riverview's participation in the SydneyAFL I would have thought it would be a positive move for the game....it seems not though.
There's a real problem when a junior competition with 6 or 8 teams cannot funnel enough players into a single u19s team to field a team with plenty to spare.
The old u19s competition was viable....I suspect the forces at work hear are not all age related.
If I am correct and the AFL draft has something to do with it, there will be nothing to change it anytime soon.
I advocate an introduction of u20s or 21s. Give the young guys more time with others their own age before playing seniors.
I am sure the change from 19's to 18's back whenever was to tie the comp in with the draft and national champoinships.
Whilst I don't have a problem with going to 20's (or 21's) it has an impact on the juniors comp. If the next level is 20's you cant leave the oldest junior comp at U/17, gap between skinny 17 yo and bigger 20yo is too big.
One solution would be to make the juniors oldest age group U/18, (ties in with last year of school etc) but I suspect it won't happen as 18's is seen as "senior" footy.

Looking at rugby they have two grades of U/20's colts, 1 grade of U/19's colts and have just introduced this year 1 grade of U/18's colts, which I think is a perfect transition approach for kids coming out of school and out of juniors. Note: only about half of the senior Sydney rugby clubs have been able to get the numbers to field a 18's colts team. In fact prior to this year, which saw a lot of work on juniors recruiting, many of the teams struggled to field the full 3 existing colts requirement.

As I mentioned earlier the Sydney rugby clubs put lot of effort into Colts recruiting last year and I estimate there are 3-5 additional team (50 - 70 extra players) in the 20's/19's colts and 5 extra team in the 18's colts.

These additional boys have come from some where, I am sure many were lapsed rugby players but many must have come from the AFL ranks.

[Doctor]

Disappointing to be told that Balmain has pulled out of the Under 19 Div 2 competition as of this week. Leaves only 7 teams in the competition with most of them struggling to field full squads.
We only have 14 clubs fielding teams in Under 19 football in Sydney, (Penno have teams in both Divisions). Somewhere between 300 and 350 participants at this age in Australia's most populated city leaves a lot to be desired. The success of Swans and GWS is masking some real problems at grass roots level.

Was this to do with lack of numbers? That's a real shame if so.

[Mug Punter]

The lack of underage teams suggests all is not that well. Back in the 80s and 90s all SFA teams has U20s and the idea of a SFL club not having an underage team was ludicrous

Yes, the inner city Unis are going well but whilst the game is not going backwards unless you are at Sydney Uni it is hard to say the game is in better shape.

For whatever reasons the alleged explosion in junior development (I know the AFL fiddle the numbers but strong junior clubs like Manly and St Ives are very very strong at the moment) just isn't translating too senior players.

How you can argue the game has never been stronger probably reflects your background more than the facts as the game has probably never been weaker in Western Sydney than it is now, just as it has probably never been stronger at Sydney Uni, UNSW or on the North Shore or Eastern Suburbs. The fact this has all happened under the watch of GWS is an absolute disgrace

Is it cultural? - is AFL in Sydney the team sport that kids play because their mums don't want them getting them getting hurt playing league or union and then they just lose interest? It is seen as a "safe" contact sport, enough to allow a it of aggression but not "too" dangerous. Is AFL seen as junior sport but not a sport you play into adulthood? If so how do you address to drop off rate.Or is this a trend across all junior sport into senior sport with kids alleged lack of activity these days?

In terms of on field I haven't has the chance to assess the level personally this year but I'm hoping to have a report to lodge soon. I'd hope the Swans academy will start filtering through the kids coming through soon. It certainly can't hurt. And for all their pomposity and the fact no one cares about them and the fact they have done nothing to develop their playing squad, Sydney Uni in the NEAFL doesn't hurt either....

[Pmcc2911]

I think your point is valid there appears to be a real east vs west difference in all aspects of junior AFL, wether that is as a result of either Swans vs GWS being better at growing the game I don't think so.
The Greater Sydney JAFL run a well organised comp across the whole of Sydney, not just the east, so the difference cant be attributed to just organisation.
It has to be demographics.
Also agree with your comment about AfL being seen as a safer contact sport. I was discussing this with a friend recently (long time ex SFL player and RL player, who lives in the Hills District). His point on view was that many parents are reacting to growing influence of Polynesian boys playing RL and RU, and who typically grow bigger earlier than anglo boys, and pushing them into AFL as a result.

Also would agree that generally across most sports juniors just aren't progressing to seniors in the same numbers the they used to.

[The Student]

Yes, the inner city Unis are going well but whilst the game is not going backwards unless you are at Sydney Uni it is hard to say the game is in better shape.

I tend to agree. I think we are going swimmingly at the moment.


How you can argue the game has never been stronger probably reflects your background more than the facts as the game has probably never been weaker in Western Sydney than it is now, just as it has probably never been stronger at Sydney Uni, UNSW or on the North Shore or Eastern Suburbs. The fact this has all happened under the watch of GWS is an absolute disgrace

Ah, the daily double - a shot at GWS and Uni in the same post! Must have felt good. Can you tell me what the Swans do for football in Sydney other than provide a product at AFL level?


In terms of on field I haven't has the chance to assess the level personally this year but I'm hoping to have a report to lodge soon.

I'll be waiting with bated breath.


I'd hope the Swans academy will start filtering through the kids coming through soon. It certainly can't hurt. And for all their pomposity and the fact no one cares about them and the fact they have done nothing to develop their playing squad, Sydney Uni in the NEAFL doesn't hurt either....

Who is supposed to care about us? I'd be interested to know which other clubs hold any support outside of the usual players, families and old boys that every club has. Not sure what you mean about developing our squad either - we have seven teams and welcome anyone who is interested in playing to our club. Are you implying that we don't have an Under 13s side or something? Do other clubs have those? Again, you seem to think you know these things so I'd like an answer.

[justabaraker]

At the bottom end it all sounds a bit sicko for AFL in the west according to what you people are writing...kids not signing on, major drop-off in the late teens, lack of junior clubs. Perhaps, based on that, Sydney footy is in the doldrums.
But, at the top end, it looks pretty good to me. I was at the Rep game last weekend and couldn't help but be impressed by 'the best'...Brayden Fowler, Trent Stubbs, McConnell, Browning. And these are guys who aren't playing in Sydney because of the big bucks that are available - seriously quality footballers.
The other side of the Rep team is that it looked to me like we didn't have 22 top-liners available so the bottom few were in the team to make up the numbers.

I was at Henson the previous weekend to see Sydney Uni in the NEAFL - ok, so they're mostly out-of-towners with just a couple of local guns but, you know what, they are playing what might be the best standard of footy ever seen in Sydney below the AFL teams

[unconfuseme]

At the bottom end it all sounds a bit sicko for AFL in the west according to what you people are writing...kids not signing on, major drop-off in the late teens, lack of junior clubs. Perhaps, based on that, Sydney footy is in the doldrums.
But, at the top end, it looks pretty good to me. I was at the Rep game last weekend and couldn't help but be impressed by 'the best'...Brayden Fowler, Trent Stubbs, McConnell, Browning. And these are guys who aren't playing in Sydney because of the big bucks that are available - seriously quality footballers.
The other side of the Rep team is that it looked to me like we didn't have 22 top-liners available so the bottom few were in the team to make up the numbers.

I was at Henson the previous weekend to see Sydney Uni in the NEAFL - ok, so they're mostly out-of-towners with just a couple of local guns but, you know what, they are playing what might be the best standard of footy ever seen in Sydney below the AFL teams

... and nobody cares.

In fairness, they probably have nearly as many people care about them as care about GWS ... threatening for a top 4 spot, they "claimed" 9,000 at Spotless for the Lions game ... how pathetic was that? ...

Having watched some of the game on TV, I reckon they've counted everyone 3 times AND added all of the players, officials, pigeons and seagulls to get that number too!!!:rolleyes:

[Doctor]

Disappointing to be told that Balmain has pulled out of the Under 19 Div 2 competition as of this week. Leaves only 7 teams in the competition with most of them struggling to field full squads.
We only have 14 clubs fielding teams in Under 19 football in Sydney, (Penno have teams in both Divisions). Somewhere between 300 and 350 participants at this age in Australia's most populated city leaves a lot to be desired. The success of Swans and GWS is masking some real problems at grass roots level.

My understanding is that the team didn't pull out due to lack of numbers. Happy to be corrected if that's not true.

[Jupiter]

My understanding is that the team didn't pull out due to lack of numbers. Happy to be corrected if that's not true.

Obviously regrettable for all involved. From my memory this would be the 3 or 4th time in 5 or 6 seasons or so Balmain has pulled a side out mid-season. During this period other clubs with resilient programs have been stopped from starting second teams, some clubs have been clearly put in the wrong divisions for political reasons, the Bankstown affair occurred, weird meaningless pathway schemes have come and gone and still there are massive issues with high school age retention in footy. Numerous issues here but my point is youth football has never been on anything but life support and it still is - this ought to be a major priority for AFL in this city. Identify the right clubs, schools and most importnantly volunteers and then give them all the support and resource they need, don't knobble them with politics.

[Pmcc2911]

Not sure what other reason you would pull out mid season, other than issues related to numbers

[The Runt]

... and nobody cares.

In fairness, they probably have nearly as many people care about them as care about GWS ... threatening for a top 4 spot, they "claimed" 9,000 at Spotless for the Lions game ... how pathetic was that? ...

Having watched some of the game on TV, I reckon they've counted everyone 3 times AND added all of the players, officials, pigeons and seagulls to get that number too!!!:rolleyes:

And the Sydney swans average home crowd in the early 90s less than 10k we all have to start somewhere, just think if the GWS mob take off like the Swans a good game of footy each week in Sydney how good will that be. So stop bagging and look at the bright side get into the bagging when they are going head to head for the big stuff. And yes I was a member back in those grim days.

[Tom Wills]

Obviously regrettable for all involved. From my memory this would be the 3 or 4th time in 5 or 6 seasons or so Balmain has pulled a side out mid-season. During this period other clubs with resilient programs have been stopped from starting second teams, some clubs have been clearly put in the wrong divisions for political reasons, the Bankstown affair occurred, weird meaningless pathway schemes have come and gone and still there are massive issues with high school age retention in footy. Numerous issues here but my point is youth football has never been on anything but life support and it still is - this ought to be a major priority for AFL in this city. Identify the right clubs, schools and most importnantly volunteers and then give them all the support and resource they need, don't knobble them with politics.

Jupiter - outstanding comment about the need of Support and resources going to most importantly volunteers, who reside in clubs.
With so many AFL staff in development roles there is no focus on the heart of each and every club - the volunteers. Sydney AFL should half the number of staff in shorts and polos, and put some real support into developing clubs, the volunteers. In Business the line is "you may join a company but you leave a boss". In footy analogy is "you join the game (AFL) but leave a club (or volunteer coach)".

[unconfuseme]

And the Sydney swans average home crowd in the early 90s less than 10k we all have to start somewhere, just think if the GWS mob take off like the Swans a good game of footy each week in Sydney how good will that be. So stop bagging and look at the bright side get into the bagging when they are going head to head for the big stuff. And yes I was a member back in those grim days.

Apples and oranges ... how many tens of millions were the AFL pumping int the Swans back then? How many support staff and development staff and priority picks were the Swans receiving back then, and how many games did they even threaten to win back then ...?

If GWS were travelling like that, there would ONLY be seagulls at the games, even the WAGS would give it a miss!

The concern is that they STILL have no idea how to begin to claim the heart and souls of what should be their support base ...

Jupiter has summed it up well!(clap)

[Mug Punter]

... and nobody cares.

In fairness, they probably have nearly as many people care about them as care about GWS ... threatening for a top 4 spot, they "claimed" 9,000 at Spotless for the Lions game ... how pathetic was that? ...

Having watched some of the game on TV, I reckon they've counted everyone 3 times AND added all of the players, officials, pigeons and seagulls to get that number too!!!:rolleyes:

Nobody outside the blazer brigade gives a stuff about Uni but to a degree that holds true for all clubs in Sydney

Re GWS I have been there several times now and I must say it is a surreal experience. Ironically I quite enjoy it as it is completely stress free football but the incessant noise from the muppet responsible for "atmosphere" is annoying. There are really only about 1,000 proper fans in their "active supporters area" where they place all their supporters so that the TV cameras can pan to give the illusion of atmosphere.

I know Sydney loves a winner but I really have my doubts about them garnering genuine support in Sydney and I think that whilst they may get 20,000 when they play us and the odd 15,000 crowd against a top Melbourne team who is playing well they may have baselined at 10,000 and that is not enough.

And I think they fiddle their crowds

Time will tell if they can grow their support but I really do fear Sydney has made their call re them and they are just a bit of a sideshow act.

Of course if they really tried to build some links with the local football community rather than investing in Manly it might help

[Mug Punter]

At the bottom end it all sounds a bit sicko for AFL in the west according to what you people are writing...kids not signing on, major drop-off in the late teens, lack of junior clubs. Perhaps, based on that, Sydney footy is in the doldrums.
But, at the top end, it looks pretty good to me. I was at the Rep game last weekend and couldn't help but be impressed by 'the best'...Brayden Fowler, Trent Stubbs, McConnell, Browning. And these are guys who aren't playing in Sydney because of the big bucks that are available - seriously quality footballers.
The other side of the Rep team is that it looked to me like we didn't have 22 top-liners available so the bottom few were in the team to make up the numbers.

I was at Henson the previous weekend to see Sydney Uni in the NEAFL - ok, so they're mostly out-of-towners with just a couple of local guns but, you know what, they are playing what might be the best standard of footy ever seen in Sydney below the AFL teams

I know that I sometimes give Sydney Uni a hard time on here but I so think their NEAFL side probably serves a purpose - I guess it gives the late developer an alternate route to AFL football. OK at the moment it is mainly out of towners but hopefully the next Dane Rampe can stay in Sydney. I think two teams was overkill but one is sustainable long term.

It does have a flow on affect to the local comp though but I guess long term it is worth it, for those Swans academy players that don't quite the Draft I guess they can make a bee-line for Newtown and if Sydney Uni can offer them some help with their study then I guess it makes sense to foster elite level sport.

As an aside I can see the ACT only having one team in the NEAFL next year, Ainslie, and that makes sense too, their licensed club should be able to bankroll a decent tilt. Four AFL sides, one NT Rep side, one Sydney one ACT, one Gold Coast and two Brisbane teams. Think a 10 team comp works quite well actually

[DLH]

I've been to the majority of Giants games at Spotless, and you can't tell me that they fiddle their crowd numbers if you use a capacity of 25,000 as a baseline.

It was pretty close to half full against Brisbane so a bit over 9000 would have been spot on. In fact, if you take into account that there were barely any Lions fans present, I was pleasantly surprised.

Their other two crowds this year of 13500 against Hawthorn and 9500 against Adelaide are clear improvements in relative terms on previous years.

[unconfuseme]

I've been to the majority of Giants games at Spotless, and you can't tell me that they fiddle their crowd numbers if you use a capacity of 25,000 as a baseline.

It was pretty close to half full against Brisbane so a bit over 9000 would have been spot on. In fact, if you take into account that there were barely any Lions fans present, I was pleasantly surprised.

Their other two crowds this year of 13500 against Hawthorn and 9500 against Adelaide are clear improvements in relative terms on previous years.

Pleeeeez! Have a look at any of the video you like from the Lions game, there is not one shot of the crowd (and the cameramen are instructed to avoid them!) where there are a quarter of the seats filled! ... if you put your blanket on a seat and your scarf on another seat, I'm sure they count that as 3 patrons!!!!:rofl

Yep 13,500 for the match against the reigning premiers, and team with the biggest following in the sport is clear evidence that they are "winning" the fight for their hearts and souls ...

Anyway, with Mummy gone, so too is their season, I predict that they will not crack 10k (legitimate) for a crowd for the rest of the year.

[DLH]

I don't need to look at the video, I was there. The lower bowl area was quite full other than the two bays where they've set up the stage.

As you've highlighted, I said 'clear improvements', which they are, I didn't say anything about battles being won.

The fact that you think Hawthorn have a bigger supporter base than Collingwood says it all.

Having said that, today's crowd of less than 8,000 was poor, especially considering that North fans were there in good numbers.

Great prediction by the way given they still have to play the Swans there, although the way their fans sook about travelling it might be close.

[ShortHalfHead]

Would have been a lot bigger crowd if they hadn't canned the curtain raiser match Penrith V Moorebank. And there would have been a GWS win on the day.

[saviour01]

If your telling me almost 1 in 3 seats were taken yesterday then you have rocks in your head. You'd be hard pressed trying to find a single bay 1/3 full.

[DLH]

If your telling me almost 1 in 3 seats were taken yesterday then you have rocks in your head. You'd be hard pressed trying to find a single bay 1/3 full.

Rubbish, one third full was about right.

I presume all these people who are commenting are actually at the games and can see the ground in its entirety rather than what's on TV?

[often_confused]

I am with DLH, I was at the ground and about 30% feels about correct. That said, there were good numbers from the shinboners and a combination of dreadful weather knowing they would be leaving on a cold wet night plus the cancelled curtin raisers did not assist.

[saviour01]

Rubbish, one third full was about right.

I presume all these people who are commenting are actually at the games and can see the ground in its entirety rather than what's on TV?

Next time you go take some pics for us to prove us wrong. I saw on tv and a few pics on twitter.

[saviour01]

Found this on twitter

View image: gwspano (http://postimg.org/image/ds6y552et/full/)

Hit the right key to scroll right. Why back is 1/3 full there? Theres next to no one upstairs. 24k capacity stadium and 8k announced and yet not even a single bay is 1/3 full

[Tom Wills]

GWS vs whoever...... blah......blah......blah......blah......blah...... blah......blah......blah......blah......blah...... who the hell cares about the crowd. If you live in Sydney we have 2 teams. Anything else is irrelevant...... sorry manly, parra, crowd numbers, seats, .... everything else is irrelevant - we have 2 teams !!!!

[Mug Punter]

GWS vs whoever...... blah......blah......blah......blah......blah...... blah......blah......blah......blah......blah...... who the hell cares about the crowd. If you live in Sydney we have 2 teams. Anything else is irrelevant...... sorry manly, parra, crowd numbers, seats, .... everything else is irrelevant - we have 2 teams !!!!

It's not irrelevant at all. The Manly issue show s a complete lack of community engagement and the pitifully low crowds illustrate in stark terms the work they need to do to establish themselves. Yes, the Swans had a dip in the 90s but these guys need to build a new supporter base form scratch and from all reports they are alienating the people they should be connecting with.

These guys must be losing an absolute fortune and if you think the Melbourne clubs will put up with GWS winning flag after flag when they are being bankrolled by $10m plus a year from AFL HQ then you are deludued. So, actually they need to sort themselves out off the field pretty damn quick

[saviour01]

Around 16.5 million a year apparently.

[Pmcc2911]

What are the options for GWS, you are looking at 10 years plus to build any sort of off field support.
I reckon they will play more and more games in Canberra to try and build a greater supporter base

[Coastal Boy]

Found this on twitter

View image: gwspano (http://postimg.org/image/ds6y552et/full/)

Hit the right key to scroll right. Why back is 1/3 full there? Theres next to no one upstairs. 24k capacity stadium and 8k announced and yet not even a single bay is 1/3 full

As much as I appreciate an evidence based reply, on closer inspection some of the crowd photos are taken during day whilst others at night. I can see the run on banner in the last one. The crowd looks very light-on but a photo taken before the first bounce whilst many of the spectators are not seated cannot be seriously submitted into evidence.

[chatovadafloor]

Still working out what this has to do with the Sydney competition

[Pekay]

Still working out what this has to do with the Sydney competition


Dead right. The Giants have shown they want very little to do with local football.

[ShortHalfHead]

Dead right. The Giants have shown they want very little to do with local football.

Yes, shame really. I, like many, could have warmed to them...especially being a Carlton supporter :hmmmm2:.

Remember attending a meeting by GWS a year before they were granted a licence. Told us of wonderful plans to engage with the local community. Didn't realise that meant the Northern Beaches.

[Mug Punter]

Still working out what this has to do with the Sydney competition

You serious that GWS has nothing to do with Sydney football?

Well at least GWS seem to share your opinion....

[Mug Punter]

Yes, shame really. I, like many, could have warmed to them...especially being a Carlton supporter :hmmmm2:.

Remember attending a meeting by GWS a year before they were granted a licence. Told us of wonderful plans to engage with the local community. Didn't realise that meant the Northern Beaches.

It's a lost opportunity and one they needed to get right at the get go.

They are now in their fourth year, it is entirely possible that their pitifully low crowds have reached their natural level. I can't see any grat reserves of untapped talent there.

I have been to a coujple of games out there and whilst it is pleasant and entirely stress free as a neutral, albeit somewhat annoying how the muppet in charge of matchday tries to create an atmosphere, it is the most surreal atmospehere at a sporting event i have ever encountered...

I know, I know, judge em in 20 years bit do ytou really think the Melbourne establishment will let them win three flags in a row from 2018-20? Because their list os that scary....

[Pekay]

Yes, shame really. I, like many, could have warmed to them...especially being a Carlton supporter :hmmmm2:.

Remember attending a meeting by GWS a year before they were granted a licence. Told us of wonderful plans to engage with the local community. Didn't realise that meant the Northern Beaches.

I've said it before, the interchange wing at the Showground is too far west for them.

[unconfuseme]

As much as I appreciate an evidence based reply, on closer inspection some of the crowd photos are taken during day whilst others at night. I can see the run on banner in the last one. The crowd looks very light-on but a photo taken before the first bounce whilst many of the spectators are not seated cannot be seriously submitted into evidence.

Valid point! ... must have been about 5,000 queuing outside who missed the the first bounce!!!:rofl

No-one in the second tier of seating, and the rest about 1/4 full would seem right ... and then all of the scarves on seats.

Happy to concede that Collingwood have more fans (about a thousand) than Hawthorn DHL, but geez, you really are grasping at straws!

Even the Collingwood fans agree, they have no interest in GWS.

When they played them the other week, both teams chasing a top 4 spot, the pies recorded their smallest home crowd of the season, with 25,000 paying feral members finding something better to do in Melbourne that day - that's a challenge in itself!!!:rofl

[Norris Lurker]

Last Saturday was a shocker, but other than that the crowds at GWS are clearly up on previous seasons; albeit off a low base. The cheer squad end is always well populated, but it thins out as you go around the ground. Capacity is about 27,000; it was about a third full for the Brisbane game and a bit less than that against North - I've got no problem with either of those crowd figures.
And for a bit of Sydney perspective, even that poor crowd was only 200 short of Manly v Wests Tigers.

I just wish the AFL would stop scheduling them on Saturday afternoon. I'm probably the only person who cares, but the frequency of clashes with AFL Sydney games is giving me the @@@@s.

[Jupiter]

Last Saturday was a shocker, but other than that the crowds at GWS are clearly up on previous seasons; albeit off a low base. The cheer squad end is always well populated, but it thins out as you go around the ground. Capacity is about 27,000; it was about a third full for the Brisbane game and a bit less than that against North - I've got no problem with either of those crowd figures.
And for a bit of Sydney perspective, even that poor crowd was only 200 short of Manly v Wests Tigers.

I just wish the AFL would stop scheduling them on Saturday afternoon. I'm probably the only person who cares, but the frequency of clashes with AFL Sydney games is giving me the @@@@s.

No mate you make a great point which goes to all of the issues raised by folks on here. They SHOULD take the local competitions fixtures into consideration but that is just a pipe dream of mine about the way the world could be.

[Coastal Boy]

Valid point! ... must have been about 5,000 queuing outside who missed the the first bounce!!!:rofl

No-one in the second tier of seating, and the rest about 1/4 full would seem right ... and then all of the scarves on seats.

Happy to concede that Collingwood have more fans (about a thousand) than Hawthorn DHL, but geez, you really are grasping at straws!

Even the Collingwood fans agree, they have no interest in GWS.

When they played them the other week, both teams chasing a top 4 spot, the pies recorded their smallest home crowd of the season, with 25,000 paying feral members finding something better to do in Melbourne that day - that's a challenge in itself!!!:rofl

Where's anyone's vision here? The many swans supporters who disparage GWS wouldn't have a local team to support if it wasn't for a visionary decision back in the early 80s. Rugby league and Aussie rules were on about par back then. But over the last 30 years the now AFL has grown into a truly national competition and has left the NRL in their wake.

The AFL had little choice but introduce the GWS. Western Sydney is the 3rd most populous region in Australia behind Sydney and Melbourne. I remember going to a talk some years back and hearing that national corporations who sponsor the AFL like Toyota keep asking about the Sydney market and if the AFL wants more dollars from them they have to infiltrate the Sydney market further. A game in Sydney every week is the start. So all and sundry can throw pot shots at the AFL but the extra TV game each week and the dollars thus generated are most likely paying for themselves. Besides, there are no other markets big enough for a team. Not Canberra, Tasmania or Darwin. The introduction of a tassie team for example would not sell another pay TV subscription.... It's already AFL saturated.

The AFL wants more supporters from Sydney and more NSW players drafted. The local comp has always been irrelevant to them. It's time for people to accept this and move on.

[chatovadafloor]

You serious that GWS has nothing to do with Sydney football?

Well at least GWS seem to share your opinion....

This subject is he strongest Sydney competition. Gws aren't in it and the crowds at their games have no bearing on the Sydney competition. If the thread was " how big are gws crowds" then that would make more sense

[mountainsofpain]

Dead right. The Giants have shown they want very little to do with local football.
The Giants are idiots.

They have been gifted an entire, massive geographical reason and it hasn't occurred to them to engage with that region to build support for themselves.

[unconfuseme]

It's quite simple.

GWS and/or the NSW AFL - the line has been blurred for about 10 years, since Holmes started auditioning for the part as President, and all his minions started jockeying for job security - "deserve" nothing, other than a role in Yes Minister.

They have however earned every plaudit they receive in here.

Yep, has nothing to do with the strength of the Sydney Comp ... would be the farthest thing from the thoughts of the powers that be, they may not even be aware that there is one!!:rolleyes:

[saviour01]

Anyone else see this article in the Australian yesterday? �They are proving more expensive than our broad forecasts suggested,� he said. Did the AFL really expect them to turn up, do nothing with the local community and have a swans level of support instantly?


AFL cash drain to new clubs could delay Etihad Stadium purchase

The Australian
June 25, 2015 12:00AM

The drain of AFL cash to Greater Western Sydney and Gold Coast is not only taking its toll on other financially struggling clubs, but could delay or even prevent the early buyout of Etihad Stadium.

Central to the financial stability of the league and its clubs is the AFL�s Future Fund, which the league values at $89.4 million, but has never held more than its current cash value of $63m.

The cash amount is less than some clubs believed it was. They say that is, in part, because of the massive additional funding to both the Giants and Suns.

As The Australian revealed in a series of exclusive reports earlier this month, up to eight clubs have forecast losses for 2015 with the competition carrying combined club debts of a record $91.5 million.

AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan told The Australian yesterday that the decision to put second teams into Queensland and NSW was proving to be more demanding than expected. �They are proving more expensive than our broad forecasts suggested,� he said.

While the AFL has always said the move north would prove challenging, it is the first time a league official has acknowledged the Suns and Giants are pulling more money from consolidated revenue than expected. However, he said that the league�s initial budget of $200m over five years to establish the clubs would be close to being �on the money�. McLachlan also stressed that the financial wellbeing of all 18 clubs was an AFL priority. A selling point to clubs in initially supporting the expansion was that the two clubs would not need a huge amount of outside funding after five years.

The early purchase of Etihad Stadium by the league is viewed by tenant clubs as being vital to their long-term existence due to their poor current deals with the privately owned venue. Former North Melbourne chief executive Eugene Arocca famously once said it was tempting to lock the gates at Etihad to keep fans away, �because we�d make more money that way�.

The AFL would have been better placed to purchase the stadium outright before they take ownership for virtually nothing in 2025, if their ultimate aim of being debt-free and having $100m in its Future Fund by next year, was met.

However, McLachlan said the acquisition of Etihad was not in any way dependent on the Future Fund. The Future Fund is currently $37m short of its projection, and could be further adrift owing to the financial instability of the clubs. Between 2011 and 2012, the fund appeared to have diminished based on the past two AFL annual reports, which said combined profits in 2013 and 2014 of $29.1m would be reinvested in the Future Fund.

As late as 2013, the AFL continued to report a Future Fund with capital of $89.4m, but the confusion to clubs surrounds the cash element compared to what has been stated in annual reports.

The Future Fund was drained in 2011 when, under Andrew Demetriou, the league borrowed $55m over 13 months, chiefly to support the blowout costs associated with the expansion clubs.

A league spokesman yesterday emphasised the importance of the Future Fund and referred to the most recent annual report, which says in part: �An amount of $89.4m ($82m plus interest of $7.4m) is held in the future fund reserve.�

As far back as 2006 when the AFL released the influential blueprint Next Generation: Securing the future of Australian Football, the idea of a Future Fund was developed to fast-track the purchase of the Docklands stadium.

The Next Generation document outlined the plan that the AFL Commission would allocate $82m over five years from 2007 to establish a Future Fund.

�One of the aims of the Future Fund is to strengthen the asset base of the competition and allow us to consider future investments to secure new revenue streams for the competition. An example of such an asset is Telstra Dome (now Etihad Stadium),� it said.

In March, 2013, AFL Commission chairman Mike Fitzpatrick confirmed the league�s preference was to buy Etihad Stadium earlier than 2025. But he said the league and the stadium�s owner Melbourne Stadiums Ltd, remained some distance apart on a price.

According to AFL annual reports the league has spent a minimum of $139m on the Suns and Giants since 2010.

The AFL is reported to have offered as much as $225m-$250m to buy Etihad. It is believed the superannuation companies that own Etihad are looking for a selling price much closer to $300m.

[Pmcc2911]

Getting back on topic, we are now just seeing the beginning of a long pipeline of academy players coming into the Sydney domestic comp.
We all talk about Mills and Heeny but for every Mills and Heeny there are 2 or 3 boys who have had the benefit of 5/6 years of quality coaching.
A lot of them now are in the U/17, U/19 system which will flow through to Seniors (and NEAFL). Some already have moved up to seniors etc.
The other thing to remember there are another couple of hundred kids in the system who will come though over the next couple of years.

So is the Sydney comp better, certainly the U/19's is and I suspect the seniors are as well.
Both of those grades will continue to get better and better reach year.

[Mug Punter]

Getting back on topic, we are now just seeing the beginning of a long pipeline of academy players coming into the Sydney domestic comp.
We all talk about Mills and Heeny but for every Mills and Heeny there are 2 or 3 boys who have had the benefit of 5/6 years of quality coaching.
A lot of them now are in the U/17, U/19 system which will flow through to Seniors (and NEAFL). Some already have moved up to seniors etc.
The other thing to remember there are another couple of hundred kids in the system who will come though over the next couple of years.

So is the Sydney comp better, certainly the U/19's is and I suspect the seniors are as well.
Both of those grades will continue to get better and better reach year.

You'd hope that this will be the case but the problem seems rather entrenched.

A lot of these kids, however, will probably step up straight into senior footy so whilst it will certainly help the senior comp I hope it also helps the U19 programmes of clubs.

[Pmcc2911]

The academy is encouraging a lot of its 17yo to play in the 19's and a number of the 18yo to play in the seniors.

[Mug Punter]

The academy is encouraging a lot of its 17yo to play in the 19's and a number of the 18yo to play in the seniors.

That's a fair call and for 15 and 16 year olds a decent standard U19 comp should provide exposure.

I accept both views re the senior comp's standard but I think there can be no doubt that the U19 comp is much much lower in quality than it was in the 80s and 90s. Let's hope it improves.

Did I also see that the pathway programme has been abolished? Although I had reservations about it that the NSWAFL spent so much time developing a program that was so bureaucratic in response to one club's activities (you know who) and then completely throws it out typifies that NSWAFL (lack of) management really.

I guess with Uni having their NEAFL team pretty much quarantined and Baulko back where they belong it takes away the big selling point football wise. Having said that I do think the scholarship system has some merit as really anything that invests money into the game and keeps young talent in the game is probably a good thing.

A cursory glance at the U19 ladder and some things really stand out. North Shore, Penno and St George have always been the traditional powerhouses so no surprises there but Easts being there probably reflects very much on Maroubra Juniors and possibly some private school activity. I can see Maroubra rebranding themselves as South Sydney and making a push for a SFL side within 5-10 years assuming their admin is in order.

Baulko's position is truly dire and probably a reflection of the NEAFL experiment that ripped the guys out of the club, one would hope it is only a matter of time before they regenerate their U19 program. Sydney Uni would be giving a chance to a lot of guys that would probably have traditionally gone to North Shore (esp the Riverview types) and probably also recruit a fair number of country kids who board at their exclusive colleges.

Hard to see South Coast being a long term participant without the structure of a senior club. the Newcastlke/CC Hunters showed that to be a flawed model and I'm sure it has badly affected the Illawarra junior comp....

Then you look at the Second Div and it is a mere 7 team comp with only three teams that haven't forfeited.

This is an area where divisionalisation hasn't worked. The match day where you have all three grades every week and where the U19s showcased young talent was a good model. I think that a hybrid system with two three team comps (ideally - with substantial NSWAFL investment to get the U19 teams on the paddock) with a further 2-3 grades of one team comps facilitating divisionalisation could helps re-establish the U19 comp

[Mug Punter]

Anyone else see this article in the Australian yesterday? �They are proving more expensive than our broad forecasts suggested,� he said. Did the AFL really expect them to turn up, do nothing with the local community and have a swans level of support instantly?

The lack of community engagement with the GWS model is something that really has me lost and it really is typified by the Manly sponsorship. I was out there a few weeks ago and it really is terrible the way their jumpers have been hijacked. And make no mistake the players and the oldtimers absolutely hate it. They still refer to themselves very pointedly as the Wolves....

And the sad thing is they wouldn't have had to do much to get real bang for their buck. They could have funded five existing proud senior clubs (Campbelltown, Penrith, Liverpool, Parramatta and Camden) with, say, a $500,000 investment per year covering development officers, equipment, administration support, coaching support and facilities development and it would have been paid back many times over...

[tara]

Sorry to sound like a broken record MP but if your going to add liverpool then please add Bankstown. Moorebank wouldnt exist if not for Bankstown.

[Pekay]

The lack of community engagement with the GWS model is something that really has me lost and it really is typified by the Manly sponsorship. I was out there a few weeks ago and it really is terrible the way their jumpers have been hijacked. And make no mistake the players and the oldtimers absolutely hate it. They still refer to themselves very pointedly as the Wolves....

And the sad thing is they wouldn't have had to do much to get real bang for their buck. They could have funded five existing proud senior clubs (Campbelltown, Penrith, Liverpool, Parramatta and Camden) with, say, a $500,000 investment per year covering development officers, equipment, administration support, coaching support and facilities development and it would have been paid back many times over...


Sorry to sound like a broken record MP but if your going to add liverpool then please add Bankstown. Moorebank wouldnt exist if not for Bankstown.

Yeah, we've been around since the 1970s too.

[The Student]

The lack of community engagement with the GWS model is something that really has me lost and it really is typified by the Manly sponsorship. I was out there a few weeks ago and it really is terrible the way their jumpers have been hijacked. And make no mistake the players and the oldtimers absolutely hate it. They still refer to themselves very pointedly as the Wolves....

And the sad thing is they wouldn't have had to do much to get real bang for their buck. They could have funded five existing proud senior clubs (Campbelltown, Penrith, Liverpool, Parramatta and Camden) with, say, a $500,000 investment per year covering development officers, equipment, administration support, coaching support and facilities development and it would have been paid back many times over...

Which local clubs do your beloved Swans give money to? Or lift a finger for, for that matter?

[tara]

Student the Swans dont care about local footy but they have never pretended to either. They do not play favourites with local clubs. GWS in their infinite wisdom decided to get involved and when they did couldnt have picked a club further from their demographic.

[Mug Punter]

Student the Swans dont care about local footy but they have never pretended to either. They do not play favourites with local clubs. GWS in their infinite wisdom decided to get involved and when they did couldnt have picked a club further from their demographic.

Apologis for not commenting on Bankstown

I disagree in terms of the Swans, I think the Swans have always tried to develop the game as much as possible whilst still bearing in mind it is the NSWAFL's responsibility to grow the game.

But in the case of GWS you would have thought that, given they need to grow a new supporter base pretty much from scratch, and that they are funded massively to do so, that they would have embraced the courted the local community rather that a team so outside their demographic it isn't funny.

Also in response to Peanut's prior response, the Swans academy's level of investment is many times that of GWS and most of that benefits the Sydney clubs in its catchment zone.....

[The Student]

Apologis for not commenting on Bankstown

I disagree in terms of the Swans, I think the Swans have always tried to develop the game as much as possible whilst still bearing in mind it is the NSWAFL's responsibility to grow the game.

But in the case of GWS you would have thought that, given they need to grow a new supporter base pretty much from scratch, and that they are funded massively to do so, that they would have embraced the courted the local community rather that a team so outside their demographic it isn't funny.

Also in response to Peanut's prior response, the Swans academy's level of investment is many times that of GWS and most of that benefits the Sydney clubs in its catchment zone.....

So what you are saying is that the Giants should have handed over six figure sums to local clubs because the Swans run an academy largely for their own benefit? Fair enough, that's a great business plan.

As for the spend on academies, I wasn't able to find any figures for GWS - although I know the Swans spend a lot of money because they love telling everyone about how civic minded and magnanimous they are every time their little setup gets threatened, so I'll have to take your word that there is a significant difference between the two. After all, you do know everything.

[saviour01]

I disagree about handing over 6 figure sums to local clubs, but it is a bad look when they hand over 50k to a non local club. The worst part is the Manly people still pretend they are the wolves.

[Mug Punter]

I disagree about handing over 6 figure sums to local clubs, but it is a bad look when they hand over 50k to a non local club. The worst part is the Manly people still pretend they are the wolves.

Is it that much?

Hard to blame Manly for taking the cash really but there should be serious questions about why they are sponsoring a club that is in the Swans academy footprint

A truly insane decision...

[mountainsofpain]

So what you are saying is that the Giants should have handed over six figure sums to local clubs because the Swans run an academy largely for their own benefit? Fair enough, that's a great business plan.
Actually, no.

The argument is that if the clowns at the Giants are going to pump resources into local senior football, then it should go into the geographical area that they are supposed to represent, not the northern beaches.

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I disagree about handing over 6 figure sums to local clubs, but it is a bad look when they hand over 50k to a non local club. The worst part is the Manly people still pretend they are the wolves.
Tell me that's not true. Please.

[Footy Barista]

Manly received no money from the Giants that's the biggest load of garbage

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I disagree about handing over 6 figure sums to local clubs, but it is a bad look when they hand over 50k to a non local club. The worst part is the Manly people still pretend they are the wolves.

What a crock of crap manly got no coin u idiot

[tara]

Manly received no money from the Giants that's the biggest load of garbage

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What a crock of crap manly got no coin u idiot

I have no idea regarding $ and don't doubt physical cash wasn't involved however no one changes their identity for nix. At the very least all of their on and off field apparel would have been covered. Given its blk branded and 5 teams are involved that alone would be around the 25 k amount so I'd say the 50k figure being bandied about may have some substance.

[Mug Punter]

Actually, no.

The argument is that if the clowns at the Giants are going to pump resources into local senior football, then it should go into the geographical area that they are supposed to represent, not the northern beaches.

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Tell me that's not true. Please.

The Student seems to have little concept of grass roots football living in his Sydney University Bubble, quite sad really that he cannot even see the idiocy of the GWS sponsorship of Manly and thinks that GWS has no responsibility to Western Sydney at all.

He really is quite hard to follow at times, his kneejerk reaction to attack everything I say sees him contradicting himself on a regular basis.

Quite bizarre logic really for such a learned fellow

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I have no idea regarding $ and don't doubt physical cash wasn't involved however no one changes their identity for nix. At the very least all of their on and off field apparel would have been covered. Given its blk branded and 5 teams are involved that alone would be around the 25 k amount so I'd say the 50k figure being bandied about may have some substance.

There is hardcore dissent down at Weldon re this so there must be a compelling business case, I am reasonably good mates with one of their stalwarts and he absolutely hates it....

But it aint hard to stack up the numbers. 150 jumpers @ $100 each = $15,000 plus their branded shorts, t shirts etc and it isn't hard to get soft assistance close to the $25K.

[ShortHalfHead]

BLK offered us jumpers for under $40. Maybe they were are cheaper brand of flannelette.

[Jupiter]

[QUOTE=Mug Punter;675941]The Student seems to have little concept of grass roots football living in his Sydney University Bubble, quite sad really that he cannot even see the idiocy of the GWS sponsorship of Manly and thinks that GWS has no responsibility to Western Sydney at all.

He really is quite hard to follow at times, his kneejerk reaction to attack everything I say sees him contradicting himself on a regular basis.

Quite bizarre logic really for such a learned fellow

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One of you is Gollum and the other is Smeagol but you are both precious.

[mountainsofpain]

Manly received no money from the Giants that's the biggest load of garbage

What a crock of crap manly got no coin u idiot
As you seem to be in the know, please fill us in on on what the Manly sponsorship is worth please?

[mountainsofpain]

I have no idea regarding $ and don't doubt physical cash wasn't involved however no one changes their identity for nix. At the very least all of their on and off field apparel would have been covered. Given its blk branded and 5 teams are involved that alone would be around the 25 k amount so I'd say the 50k figure being bandied about may have some substance.
The posters here have been around Sydney footy long enough to know that clubs just don't give up their identity for nothing. Especially a club like Manly.

I didn't think the sponsorship would have been as little as $2k and a set of jumpers, but the figure of $50k surprised me. But when you think about it, it's not as outrageous as it sounds.

The Giants deliberately dropped a steaming turd on the good football people out west with their sponsorship of Manly. In doing so, they showed up all the feel good PR of being a western Sydney club as utterly fraudulent.

[Footy Barista]

The posters here have been around Sydney footy long enough to know that clubs just don't give up their identity for nothing. Especially a club like Manly.

I didn't think the sponsorship would have been as little as $2k and a set of jumpers, but the figure of $50k surprised me. But when you think about it, it's not as outrageous as it sounds.

The Giants deliberately dropped a steaming turd on the good football people out west with their sponsorship of Manly. In doing so, they showed up all the feel good PR of being a western Sydney club as utterly fraudulent.


A case of promising a lot and delivering nothing ...... A full set of jumpers is just about it to be honest from what I gather the afl alliance was an appeal to attract more sponsorship to the club but no real change as a result would be surprised if it continues in the future

[mountainsofpain]

A case of promising a lot and delivering nothing ...... A full set of jumpers is just about it to be honest from what I gather the afl alliance was an appeal to attract more sponsorship to the club but no real change as a result would be surprised if it continues in the future
I was after a monetary value of the sponsorship if you could.

As I said, it would be significant. Manly doesn't ditch 40 plus years of success under that name and in those colours for nothing.

"A full set of jumpers??". Hmmm...................

[tara]

A case of promising a lot and delivering nothing ...... A full set of jumpers is just about it to be honest from what I gather the afl alliance was an appeal to attract more sponsorship to the club but no real change as a result would be surprised if it continues in the future
I find that hard to believe to be honest simply because they dont strike me as a club run by imbeciles intent on throwing money away.

If all they received is a set of jumpers then they would have spent 20K of their own money rebranding themselves. Shorts, Singlets, Club Polos, Hoodies, Sports bags. BLK hoodies cost $70-80 ea depending on the qty ordered.

GWS operate on a Jan-Dec Financial year when reporting their financials to ASIC.

GWS COGS in relation to merchandise in 2013 and 2014 was $432,885 and $647,259 respectively which makes sense as they are growing year to year or at least you would hope they are. What is interesting is that in 2013 they wrote of $353,708 in merchandise expenses yet nothing in 2014. Given 2013 was they year of rebranding local clubs one wonders if this expense was related.

[Footy Barista]

I find that hard to believe to be honest simply because they dont strike me as a club run by imbeciles intent on throwing money away.

If all they received is a set of jumpers then they would have spent 20K of their own money rebranding themselves. Shorts, Singlets, Club Polos, Hoodies, Sports bags. BLK hoodies cost $70-80 ea depending on the qty ordered.

GWS operate on a Jan-Dec Financial year when reporting their financials to ASIC.

GWS COGS in relation to merchandise in 2013 and 2014 was $432,885 and $647,259 respectively which makes sense as they are growing year to year or at least you would hope they are. What is interesting is that in 2013 they wrote of $353,708 in merchandise expenses yet nothing in 2014. Given 2013 was they year of rebranding local clubs one wonders if this expense was related.


hoodies singlets polo and all that Jazz were paid for by the club those hoodies have last years sponsor on them for which manly do not have anymore the singlets are funded by another sponsor and are in fact last years believe what u want but

[mountainsofpain]

hoodies singlets polo and all that Jazz were paid for by the club those hoodies have last years sponsor on them for which manly do not have anymore the singlets are funded by another sponsor and are in fact last years believe what u want but
So are you able to give us a total monetary value of the sponsorship please?

[Footy Barista]

I was after a monetary value of the sponsorship if you could.

As I said, it would be significant. Manly doesn't ditch 40 plus years of success under that name and in those colours for nothing.

"A full set of jumpers??". Hmmm...................

I don't know a monetary value I'm not on the board my mate plays for them .... As I said idiot it was a case of promising a lot and delivering little ..... i also said sponsorship opportunities have a read mate and think about it I suggest u sit in at the Agm for manly next season if it means so much to u

[mountainsofpain]

I don't know a monetary value I'm not on the board my mate plays for them .... As I said idiot it was a case of promising a lot and delivering little ..... i also said sponsorship opportunities have a read mate and think about it I suggest u sit in at the Agm for manly next season if it means so much to u
So you know nothing at all about it then. Which is fine. I'll try and find out from informed sources.

It only concerns me because GWS (fraudulently) promoted itself as a western Sydney club - not a club to support the western Sydney hating crowd on the northern beaches.

[Mug Punter]

I don't know a monetary value I'm not on the board my mate plays for them .... As I said idiot it was a case of promising a lot and delivering little ..... i also said sponsorship opportunities have a read mate and think about it I suggest u sit in at the Agm for manly next season if it means so much to u

So rude.....

[Footy Barista]

Sponsorship opportunities, access to facilities a few times during the preseason, a matchday experience at spotless & kevin sheedy came to an a sportsman lunch i think...no physical cash
I dont know the specifics but believe that one of the major sponsors was GWS introduced

It was not what the players were promised when they agreed to the change as the original offer was reneged after the Syd AFL / NSW AFL blocked it which did

[Mug Punter]

Sponsorship opportunities, access to facilities a few times during the preseason, a matchday experience at spotless & kevin sheedy came to an a sportsman lunch i think...no physical cash
I dont know the specifics but believe that one of the major sponsors was GWS introduced

It was not what the players were promised when they agreed to the change as the original offer was reneged after the Syd AFL / NSW AFL blocked it which did

So they sold their history for an evening with Kevin Sheedy and a matchday experience that none of them would have attended?

I suspect you know as much of the exact details as the rest of us, that is zero.

But having said that Tara's viewpoint that Manly aren't a club run by idiots is a good starting point. I cannot believe they'd sell out for so little. A full kit across five grades (jumpers, shorts, socks, t shirts etc) is not to be sneezed at and I'd think that would have to all be thrown in for nothing.

Then again, you're on the committee at Manly and there's suddenly $15-20,000 that you don't need to find the next season. Even SFL clubs are run pretty much on the breadline....

I can see how it would have been too hard for Manly to refuse but it still is completely idiotic from a GWS perspective, no matter how sound a strategy The Student seems to think it is...

[unconfuseme]

Wow, if this information is right, it would hardly seem to have been the financial coupe that could have been expected for giving up ones Northern beaches dignity to align with the Great unwashed of Western Sydney - although I do believe that Quakers Hill is now officially a part of the Lower North Shore!

... maybe the Wolves board were not as clever as they seem. Could be time for a shake out ... or a tax audit!

[Mug Punter]

Wow, if this information is right, it would hardly seem to have been the financial coup that could have been expected for giving up ones Northern beaches dignity to align with the Great unwashed of Western Sydney - although I do believe that Quakers Hill is now officially a part of the Lower North Shore!

... maybe the Wolves board were not as clever as they seem. Could be time for a shake out ... or a tax audit!

I'm a traditionalist and I've always hated the way that Sydney clubs sell out their dignity for a set if football jumpers, an interstate visit and a whole bunch of empty promises....

The only one that I think was properly thought through was East Coast Eagles but even then I think they gave up way too much...

Of course the absolute dumbest of the lot was Balmain giving up their iconic Tiger for a set of purple jumpers.

Even North Shore. OK no one really noticed the change to the bombers but why not stay as the Bears as they had been for years. Campbelltown and St George both tried and failed...

I'm sure that Manly will revert to the Wolves moniker fairly soon...

All the same though, if you are on the committee of a club and someone (anyone) effectively offers you even $15,000 worth of value you need to listen and I cannot blame Manly for taking the bait, especially given the problems they have down there.

Being on a committee is a thankless task and the players at Manly should have a seriously good look at themselves if they want to blame the committee for taking the cash. I have it on sound authority that the End of Season Trips at Wolvetown are now so ambitious that the fundraising for these holidays now takes complete priority over functions where the money goes into the club's coffers as far as the playing group is concerned. Their last trip raised they raised well in excess of $20,000 from functions that benefitted a small group of players rather than the club as a whole.

It has caused a huge rift between the committee and an influential bloc of established players.

Whilst they are still winning it will be papered over but things aren't at all rosey down at Weldon. Go down there and you'll see any number of little cliques around the place having little snide conversations. Even that bonehead Adams seems to be hanging around the joint these days, god help them if he ever gets back on the committee...

[Footy Barista]

I'm facebook friends with Razzle, not great mates but facebook mates - Div 2 player/ coach, been down at the club for a million years & always seems to be in the thick of the action down at Weldon. In fact I think he was the one who organised the above mentioned footy trip. I alerted him to what was being written on here. With his permission I copy and pasted what he had to say.

"It's funny how on threads like these it's always from what I've heard & I know someone down there but very rarely is a name put next to a statement. Regarding last years footy trip to the USA, 22 players went, it was a 3 week tour of the states where we attended the USAFL national titles amongst other things, ran a coaching clinic, helped boundary umpire, run water etc, and also played an exhibition match. The muppet who quoted $20,000 is a fair way off the mark - in fact almost double. We raised $11,000. Of that $11,000 we were proactive in organising 4 saturday night events throughout a 22 week season, each time seeking the permission off committee members to use the club rooms.... When there was nothing doing in the rooms that night. A Ping Pong night, a 100 shot beer night, A mexican themed night & a Frat house night - those nights profited about $4500 in total toward the trip. The other monies was raised courtesy of a Punters Club from the 22 players that went on the trip, a preseason cricket day & one of the boys who won the tipping comp donated toward the kitty. Plus the committee offered us from time to time to run the BBQ or bar for the last hour (which we supplied all grog for) on the occasional match day...but only once or twice. It also needs to be said that we attended any club functions that the club ran for the benefit of the club. So if raising a few dollars for our footy trip is a crime then string me up and start hurling stones because I am guilty as charged your honour.

Where I may have gone wrong was getting up at Presentation night to talk about the historic trip & talked about some figures. I mentioned it was going to be a $100,000+ trip - but I was calculating the $2500 for Flights, travel & accom & another $2500 on spending money - per person 22 x $5000 = $110,000... Some of the committee may have been a little shocked at those numbers. Probably a mistake but we were proud of what we had achieved.

We are going to go back to the States this year where 21 of us will be doing the business again for a 2.5 week trip from hell. But to make sure no one is excluded we are also having a 3 day footy trip to Wagga where 40 players have committed to attend. "Small group of players" Ok big fella you believe that!! Lets not forget that none of our players are paid, unlike some other clubs, which is fine - good luck to them. But I don't think it's out of order to raise some coin to go away. Just because we are good at it & have some smart guys who organise the events shouldn't be seen as a negative. - And just quietly it was the best 3 weeks of our lives!!!!

Regarding the Wolves/Giants alliance I thinks it's fair to say that the players weren't thrilled with the switch - who would be??. But it hasn't really caused much angst at player level. The committee did what they thought was best for the club moving forward. We throw on the maroon & white jersey, still refer to ourselves as the Wolves & sing the same club song we always have when we have a win "We are the mighty Wolves". We just do it all in a Giants guernsey these days...It's not the end of the world. If I had a preference we'd be still the Wolves but at the the end of the day we are in the same boat - we play for Manly.

The figures I read in that thread were laughable - To my knowledge the Giants originally offered a cash kicker but was rejected by the AFL. So once again to my knowledge no cash traded hands. My belief the lure of an AFL alliance was hard to say no to. They found us a sponsor but that wasn't a huge amount either. We actually lost our Major Sponsor late last year due to change of management. In the 1.5 years since it happened it's fair to say the Giants have under delivered on their promises they tabled but it certainly doesn't cause any arguments or fuss from the people I talk to. Maybe it does in the board room, I dunno. But we as players have full trust in what they are doing. Maybe a few ex players who haven't played for a few years hate the concept but none of the current crop"

- There you have it folks, straight from one of the horses mouth. I don't really want to bother him anymore on the topic. I believe he is currently in Spain about to Run with The Bulls in Pamplona. Braver man than I am!!

[mountainsofpain]

I don't blame Manly for taking what the Giants had to offer, why wouldn't they?

I simply don't get how the Giants can get behind a senior club on the northern beaches, all but ignore senior clubs in the west and then have the gall to call itself a western Sydney club.

I was curious to find out the amount of the Manly sponsorship simply to ascertain the size of the dump that the Giants are taking on said senior clubs in western Sydney.

[Pmcc2911]

It does seem pretty dumb all round but judging from Footy Baristas mate it doesn't seem to bother many at Manly.
You right the ones that should be pissed are the clubs in Western Sydney.

[andreww1]

How financial are all the Sydney clubs? Are any in danger of going under or would the AFL bail them out?

[Mug Punter]

How financial are all the Sydney clubs? Are any in danger of going under or would the AFL bail them out?

Most live a hand to mouth existence. The fact that players shell out $400 - 500 a season to play says it all. Most are now pretty much fully amateur. Wests are the only one with a licenced club not that you'd know it given the rabble they are this season.

Every now and then you'll get a club throwing silly cash about but it is surprising how rarely it pays off. Balmain paid silly money for years with their ill gotten gains and won a couple of flags but soon imploded. Wests threw similar money a few years ago but had Eynaud as coach and lost the unlosable GF. Very few now pay any major payments beyond coaching staff. I have it on good authority the premiers of the last couple of years barely pay any players

They survive though and amazingly I can't remember the last time a club went bust financially, probably Northern Eagles in the early 90s and that was a grubby affair due to internal mismanagement that is best not discussed here.

Over the decades of my involvement in Sydney football I have never heard of the NSWAFL ever helping out a struggling club. Their interest below PD is minimal. They are an absolute disgrace and their behaviour with Balmain and Town over the last two years just illustrates this....

[Pekay]

Explain Northern Eagles to me, catchment, home ground, colours, names etc. I've seen it about in the history books but never known much more.

[tara]

Explain Northern Eagles to me, catchment, home ground, colours, names etc. I've seen it about in the history books but never known much more.

Blue and gold and st ives show grounds from memory. Last time I played them was 23 years ago so could be very wrong

[Mug Punter]

Explain Northern Eagles to me, catchment, home ground, colours, names etc. I've seen it about in the history books but never known much more.

Born out of the St Ives club who really dominated the SFA - they were cherry ripe for SFL, had a licensed club in the pipeline and the works but North Shore exerted all their influence to kill off those ambitions and effectively the club at senior level. They have continued to be one of the strongest junior clubs in Sydney over an extended period.

http://www.stivesafl.com/about-us/club-history

Named Northern Eagles in 1988 to try and get the support of the strong Forest. Survived for 6 seasons and were disbanded in 1993 after severe financial mismanagement saw them forced to close. Kevin Eynaud, former Reserve Grader at North Shore and A-grade sniper, was coach for all six seasons - later achieved mediocrity at Mac Uni, North Shore, Wests and Pennant Hills and now again at Wests.

Think they made the finals once in their history.

West Coast Eagles strip, played out of the worst ground in the SFA at St Ives Showground (a far cry from Acron Oval) where it was not uncommon to have large deposits of horse @@@@ scattered at regular intervals across the playing surface.

Have never worked out why St Ives juniors have never tried to get the seniors up and running - that upper North Shore is a huge catchment area and with Hornsby-Berowra having a decent junior club and a growing catchment area.

[justabaraker]

Here's a new take on this thread - the SFL has put out a list of the top 20 players for the year. Do they make the Comp the strongest it has ever been ?

20. Tom Larby (UTS)
19. Alexander Wynn (St George)
18. Kieran Wright (Pennant Hills)
17. Taran Etto (Western Suburbs)
16. Blake Anderson (East Coast)
15. Jamie Vlatko (East Coast)
14. Kieran Emery (East Coast)
13. Damian Bonney (Manly Warringah)
12. Matt Carey (Pennant Hills)
11. Anthony Robertson (Manly Warringah)
10. Blake Guthrie (St George)
9. Andrew Browning (East Coast)
8. Stuart Turner (East Coast)
7. Paul Bevan (Western Suburbs)
6. James Brain (Manly Warringah)
5. Jack Dimery (East Coast)
4. Brayden Fowler (Manly Warringah)
3. Connor Petterson (MW)
2. Andrew McConnell (ECE)
1. Trent Stubbs (ECE)

[justabaraker]

8 of the top 20 are from Baulko, another 5 from Manly. So 13 of the top 20 are from two clubs.
It might be that those two clubs are as strong as we've had (but I still think back to Birdy's Campbelltowns and Balmains, and Ron Thomas's Wests).

There are certainly some quality units in the list and I reckon the SFL has pretty well nailed it. Probably agree with 11>1, but the lesser end of the list could be debatable.

The list is pretty much the group that smashed Canberra in the Rep game a few weeks ago, and I thought the Canberra team was stacked with their best talent - it wasn't long ago that Canberra was beating our Rep teams so I'm thinking that our best is better than it has been in the past.

[saviour01]

I know Jordan West only plays the last half of every season due to playing college basketball, but gotta feel he's a tad unlucky. I thought he did a job on the Aaron Woods bloke from ECE who I think polled at 8th. Plays almost a whole game in the ruck every week. Stories about his old man, use to run 12km to training and then run it back home after - also played whole games in the ruck.

Bryce Addison will probably win our best and fairest this year, has really stepped up. Thought he did well in the rep game too.

Gutters maybe could have gone higher. I get that Matt Petering only played 3 games and he flies home all the time to play in the VAFA with his old club, but the bloke is a gun (just checked, 5 VAFA games, 4 times in best on this season, 18/10 last season and 16/12 in 2013).

[Mug Punter]

8 of the top 20 are from Baulko, another 5 from Manly. So 13 of the top 20 are from two clubs.
It might be that those two clubs are as strong as we've had (but I still think back to Birdy's Campbelltowns and Balmains, and Ron Thomas's Wests).

There are certainly some quality units in the list and I reckon the SFL has pretty well nailed it. Probably agree with 11>1, but the lesser end of the list could be debatable.

The list is pretty much the group that smashed Canberra in the Rep game a few weeks ago, and I thought the Canberra team was stacked with their best talent - it wasn't long ago that Canberra was beating our Rep teams so I'm thinking that our best is better than it has been in the past.

It's hard to believe now how good those Campbelltown outfits were, plus they had good juniors....

The wins against Canberra would be more reflective the parlous standard of the ACTAFL more than anything else but I agree there are some good juniors.

In 10 years with a decade of academy products playing in the comp I think the comp could well be at an all time high but for mine those hard nut teams would smash a team like Manly

[Hole In Bucket]

It's hard to believe now how good those Campbelltown outfits were, plus they had good juniors....

The wins against Canberra would be more reflective the parlous standard of the ACTAFL more than anything else but I agree there are some good juniors.

In 10 years with a decade of academy products playing in the comp I think the comp could well be at an all time high but for mine those hard nut teams would smash a team like Manly


The 3 teams mentioned were full of mercenaries who all disappeared as quickly as they came when the money disappeared. They were strong teams, the comp wasnt strong then.

I dispute there were many Campbeltown juniors bar McLaughlin and Kershaw . The year before Bird?Murphy and the chequebook came were hopeless. They were awful again for a few years when all the players left. Then the chequebook came again with Brunton and they were good for a couple of years again. We know whats happened since and there are plenty of rumours that plenty of the players were paid what they were promised.

Same with Balmain, paid for Zochling, Ash Reade, Ash Thompson etc and when the money dried up the players disappeared quickly and the club was rooted.

The comp was strongest early to mid 2000's when Penno, Baulko, East, North Shore and Stgeorge all had good teams and competition was even at a good level.

[justabaraker]

I had another observation on the SFL Top 20 this year...
16 of them come to us with experience in stronger comps so just 4 (Etto, Wynn, Wright and Carey) are raised local and stayed local.

It shows a good blend that our comp is getting good (but not brilliant) players from outside to bring on the locals. I like that.

[justabaraker]

Same with Balmain, paid for Zochling, Ash Reade, Ash Thompson etc and when the money dried up the players disappeared quickly and the club was rooted.
Trivia question...What was the name of the Balmain small forward, from the army I think, who starred in our comp and appeared as a personal trainer on one of those TV "biggest loser" programmes ? Would he have been on the money train too ?

[chatovadafloor]

And..... This has what to do with strongest comp? Balmain ain't in prems

[justabaraker]

Good point ! I got my threads mixed up.

Can you remember his name or not ?

[Mug Punter]

Good point ! I got my threads mixed up.

Can you remember his name or not ?

Lee Campbell was a very good small forward for the Tigers (think he followed Bird from Town) but not sure if he is your man

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The 3 teams mentioned were full of mercenaries who all disappeared as quickly as they came when the money disappeared. They were strong teams, the comp wasnt strong then.

I dispute there were many Campbeltown juniors bar McLaughlin and Kershaw . The year before Bird?Murphy and the chequebook came were hopeless. They were awful again for a few years when all the players left. Then the chequebook came again with Brunton and they were good for a couple of years again. We know whats happened since and there are plenty of rumours that plenty of the players were paid what they were promised.

Same with Balmain, paid for Zochling, Ash Reade, Ash Thompson etc and when the money dried up the players disappeared quickly and the club was rooted.

The comp was strongest early to mid 2000's when Penno, Baulko, East, North Shore and Stgeorge all had good teams and competition was even at a good level.

The Noacks were also Campbelltown juniors and Podbury played a long time there after winning the Phelan at Bankstown, think your are selling them short a bit

Agree re the early 00s though

[andreww1]

So why are Wests struggling this year? They picked up the better players from Campbelltown plus Paul Bevan, but have gone backwards.
Is it culture or coaching or skills or game plan or what?
What happens to them when the proceeds from the sale of their club runs out?

[Nuttsy]

The 3 teams mentioned were full of mercenaries who all disappeared as quickly as they came when the money disappeared. They were strong teams, the comp wasnt strong then.

I dispute there were many Campbeltown juniors bar McLaughlin and Kershaw . The year before Bird?Murphy and the chequebook came were hopeless. They were awful again for a few years when all the players left. Then the chequebook came again with Brunton and they were good for a couple of years again. We know whats happened since and there are plenty of rumours that plenty of the players were paid what they were promised.

Same with Balmain, paid for Zochling, Ash Reade, Ash Thompson etc and when the money dried up the players disappeared quickly and the club was rooted.

The comp was strongest early to mid 2000's when Penno, Baulko, East, North Shore and Stgeorge all had good teams and competition was even at a good level.

Not to let the facts get in the way but here goes. When we won in 94,95 there was a lot of juniors in the side including Kershaw, McLaughlin x2, Barrett, Campbell, Kelner, Upfield, Noack, Moller, Nichols, Guest, Underwood, Lucas, Brooks, Roberts. We also had a decent Army contingent then with Malseed, Turner, Brown and then Burnett, Mcbrien and Foye that travelled up from the Sth Coast. The only players who came in with the so called "Chequebook" were Mcgough(who was underwood's cousin), Sungalis(Rowles nephew), Pleming, Druce and obviously Murphy as coach. Id hardly say we were "Awful again" for a few years considering we played the next 3 years in the ACTAFL when it was much stronger than it is now and made finals and then came back to Sydney and won the Seniors and Reserves in 99. Through the late 80's to mid 90's there was 9 Junior clubs between Holsworthy and Bargo which all had Under 17's which dwindled in the early 2000's quickly down to 2 or 3 and up until this year there was only 1 Under 17's team in the same region for about the last 7-8 years.

And one thing I can assure you of is that EVERY player has always been paid what they were owed by Campbelltown. Even in my time we sent cheques to Service guys that had moved interstate before Presentation night that were owed money.

[justabaraker]

I hear what you're saying Nuttsy. But how has it all gone so wrong ? Was it when the McLaughlins moved on ?

[Nuttsy]

I hear what you're saying Nuttsy. But how has it all gone so wrong ? Was it when the McLaughlins moved on ?

Once the local junior comp diminished, so did the amount of kids coming through capable of playing Premier Division. The club always had good local talent coming through when there was 6-8 junior clubs in the area. 3RAR out of Holsworthy was always a good source also but in the early 2000's they transferred up to Darwin. The reality is there is a massive difference in getting people to play footy at the lower levels compared to trying to recruit players that are up to Premier Division standard. lets also not kid ourselves either if anyone moves to Sydney for work with an AFL background they generally move to either Inner City or the coast not to down town C'Town :D

[Mug Punter]

So why are Wests struggling this year? They picked up the better players from Campbelltown plus Paul Bevan, but have gone backwards.
Is it culture or coaching or skills or game plan or what?
What happens to them when the proceeds from the sale of their club runs out?

I'd say they are in a fair bit of strife.

No juniors to speak of really in a fairly multicultural area that is not well suited to producing Australian footballers.

Their current coaching set up can't be helping either

[The Student]

[QUOTE=Mug Punter;678070]Lee Campbell was a very good small forward for the Tigers (think he followed Bird from Town) but not sure if he is your man

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Lee fits that description pretty well - as far as I know he finished his career in Sydney with Uni in Div 2 in 2010, but only played a few games that year because he kept breaking down.

[Steamboat]

I'd say they are in a fair bit of strife.

No juniors to speak of really in a fairly multicultural area that is not well suited to producing Australian footballers.

Their current coaching set up can't be helping either

I have assisted in prems under several good coaches for the last 10 years and Kev is as thorough and prepared as any that are going around, Juniors are an issue and dwindling numbers are not just a problem for Wests but the entire Sydney League.

We have picked up some good players from C Town this year but apart from T Etto, they have not been able to get a consistent run of games on the board, whilst the wins have not been as frequent as we would have liked, we have started to play some decent football over the last 6 weeks.

Injuries have played a major part in our ladder position and whilst all clubs have injuries,player turnover due to those injuries have exceeded 45, this is always going to see you well down the ladder, whilst we are a fair bit behind the top 3, 5 losses by 3 goals or less,the Magpies position on the ladder could have been much different with a little bit of luck.

[Mug Punter]

I have assisted in prems under several good coaches for the last 10 years and Kev is as thorough and prepared as any that are going around, Juniors are an issue and dwindling numbers are not just a problem for Wests but the entire Sydney League.

We have picked up some good players from C Town this year but apart from T Etto, they have not been able to get a consistent run of games on the board, whilst the wins have not been as frequent as we would have liked, we have started to play some decent football over the last 6 weeks.

Injuries have played a major part in our ladder position and whilst all clubs have injuries,player turnover due to those injuries have exceeded 45, this is always going to see you well down the ladder, whilst we are a fair bit behind the top 3, 5 losses by 3 goals or less,the Magpies position on the ladder could have been much different with a little bit of luck.

Is it true the money pot has dried up out at the Wests licensed club?

How did you rate Kev's performance in the 2005 GF, never seen a man so out-coached in all my life.....

[Steamboat]

Is it true the money pot has dried up out at the Wests licensed club?

How did you rate Kev's performance in the 2005 GF, never seen a man so out-coached in all my life.....

MP, not privy to financial position of club as not on board and if i was, forums and blog sites not right avenue for disclosing any of that information.

Was with another club in 2005 and did not see the GF so not sure how he went, but there is not a coach at any level of any sport that does not get out coached from time to time, i would think there would be a good argument to say that 4 coaches in prems each week are out coached.

[Mug Punter]

MP, not privy to financial position of club as not on board and if i was, forums and blog sites not right avenue for disclosing any of that information.

Was with another club in 2005 and did not see the GF so not sure how he went, but there is not a coach at any level of any sport that does not get out coached from time to time, i would think there would be a good argument to say that 4 coaches in prems each week are out coached.

If only our Ashes batsmen could play such a straight bat....

[justabaraker]

If only our Ashes batsmen could play such a straight bat....

No, he just doesn't agree with your oft-expressed opinion that Kev is crap....a lot of us don't.

[Mug Punter]

No, he just doesn't agree with your oft-expressed opinion that Kev is crap....a lot of us don't.

You're quite right, I can see the hordes of ex players on here defending him (not.....)

I take it you've never had the pleasure of his coaching yourself then. He's become somewhat of a caricature figure really

His record really does speak for itself

[Coastal Boy]

Yes, Kev's record does speak for itself. He is probably been coaching longer than any other current coach in the Sydney AFL.

I don't understand the Kev bashing. Is it personal? I cannot recall any other coach even rating a mention on this forum. I really don't like giving this issue oxygen by responding but silence doesn't mean everyone agrees with the vocal.

[Tom Wills]

I will also defend Kev.
It seems those that want to take a pot shots at Kev are those outside the clubs he coached, not inside as players. From what I hear from the players he has coached think he is great coach - lots of preparation. While his Premier Division record does not include flags I think he Junior involvement has numerous flags. 2 clubs (i assume coaches) have won 5 of the last 6 premier division flags - that makes a lot of poor coaches if you only look at performance. IMO its an example of if one or two people bang on about an statement enough - people start to believe it, whether it is true or not.

[chatovadafloor]

Big Kev been a great stalwart for the league, is respectful and a decent bloke with a honest passion for the game.

[justabaraker]

You're quite right, I can see the hordes of ex players on here defending {KEV}him (not.....)
oh well.......

[justabaraker]

Looking at the team of the year.....it looks powerful to me and is close to the Rep team that accounted so easily for Canberra earlier in the year.
But I wonder about Nic Fosdike as coach of the year - his team only won six matches and I thought that there might have been more deserving candidates.
But UTS has a way of getting the cards to fall their way, as many of you have outlined recently.

Could his coaching award have an ulterior motive behind it ? I don't know anything but just surmising.

[saviour01]

St george got one bloke in it, who played about 7 games all up.

Lol at fosdike, did they pull names out of a hat?