Is it already Killing Season 2016 (List Management) after 2 rounds

[WauchopeAnalyst]

With so much water going under the bridge, until the end of the season, I was suprised by the amount of chatter about contracts and needing to save cash on our list.

So I have checked bigfooty and trawled through contractual discussions and the list appears to be about right. Who do we keep and who is pretty much done:frown...

In order (my Top 6)

Mitchell
Jack
Heeney
Papley
Hewett
Lloyd

and then the list cloggers or a bit too old or slow.....

1452

I just can't see how we are going to keep everyone we want! 25 player contracts finished this year:hmmm

[Mug Punter]

With so much water going under the bridge, until the end of the season, I was suprised by the amount of chatter about contracts and needing to save cash on our list.

So I have checked bigfooty and trawled through contractual discussions and the list appears to be about right. Who do we keep and who is pretty much done:frown...

In order (my Top 6)

Mitchell
Jack
Heeney
Papley
Hewett
Lloyd

and then the list cloggers or a bit too old or slow.....

1452

I just can't see how we are going to keep everyone we want! 25 player contracts finished this year:hmmm

Jeepers, there's a few names that are required there.....

On the whole I think we're reasonably placed to retain who we want.

I see the following 10 as major required with comments

* Keiran - will re-sign
* Laidler - possibly at risk but would imagine a modestly upgraded yet long term deal (a la Rampe) would be attractive to him since we saved his career
* Towers - Could attract some interest but should re-sign on a similar longer term but relatively modest contract
* Tom Mitchell - at risk and could be the sacrifice
* Lloyd - wouldn't be a massive target for other club so should be re-signed
* Harry, Robbo, Hewett, Issac, Paley - from a development point of view they'd be insane to re-sign. Could well see them being offered two year deals with the proviso that their next deal starts to get them up the pay structure

The other players need us more than we need them

I'm not too worried about this and I'd expect that the club is waiting to find out what the AFLPA and AFL negotiate re cap increases. I also would think the other clubs are in similar positions.

We will need to find a bit of coin somewhere and I'd say that the deals would probably be slightly back-ended and that McGlynn and Ted retiring, and probably freeing up a goof $600K plus is a given. Tom worries me, he is on $500K per year and if our space is tight we may need to let him go in order to re-sign Harry, Robbo, Hewett, Issac and Paley.

Overall though I think we'll be fine as the new deal will fgive us more free cash and the existing contracts of our A Listers will look like pretty good value

The new CBA needs to be signed off by June 30 so I wouldn't expect to see anything done before then. August is really getting too close to finals so expect a flurry of activity in July. I'm sure the club will be ready to pounce. It helps of course in re-signing players if you are having a good season and it helps if the players are happy and getting a game and for that reason I feel fairly confident but I could see Tom getting offered $1m a year from Carlton and that would be hard to match and hard to knock back.

TPP numbers as high as $15m are being bandied about at the moment which to me seems insane. If we do get an additional $5M next year that will simply blow every club payscale out of the water so I'd be thinking a more incremental increase may be agreed

I'm not sure how that upsets the apple cart either if you're JPK who signed in the old world and suddenly see players like Towers or Cunningham potentially getting more than you. The recent signees like Tippett, Buddy, Hanners, Reg and Luke won't have an issue as they would have signed their new deals fully aware they had a big increase factored in. Maybe a JPK will get an improved yet extended deal to keep him at parity and also keep him at the club.

[Ludwig]

Every club has salary cap issues and are not so quick to shell out big bucks just because a player is out of contract. Not all players move for money either. If it were the case, then Hawthorn would lose half their list, because just about everyone is a star and they can't all be on big contracts. Key forwards are the ones that are most susceptible to getting big offers, and top grade key defenders are in vogue as well. It's probably easier to raid GWS or GC if you want a player. We are not talking about free agents here either, so a club will have to shell out compensation in players or draft picks on top of the salary offer. And once you offer a player from another club big money, then it raises the bar for the good players already on your list.

The only ones that I see a problem with this year are Mitchell and Hewett. I think if Hewett can hold down a spot by year end, he will stay. I'd try to sign him up asap. I think Tom would like to stay a Swan, so it might take a pretty good offer to get him off us. I can't see him being offered anywhere close to a mil a year. What would they have to pay Cripps, Murphy and Gibbs if they did?

Not too many Swans with regular spots in the senior side want to leave. We are one of the big destination clubs and are more likely to attract players than lose them.

[DA_Swan]

If we resign both Mitchell and Hewett we will have done great business as they are both sure to be offered big bucks elsewhere I reckon Freo will be chasing Tom M (Barlow replacement) and Carlton as usual and Port Adelaide for Hewett - as you say interesting call re JPK especially if he wants huge dollars would hate to lose TM and GH and of course JPK - will be interesting times for Tom Harley to navigate

[Nico]

Why would you sacrifice Mitchell to keep Harry and Robbo. It is a no brainer to keep him. The club rarely gets it wrong.

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Three good posts and the most important issue might be CBA and TPP.

I hope these two are tall defenders and aged about 21 years of age. ????

Probably poor effort by me.

[aguy]

If we resign both Mitchell and Hewett we will have done great business as they are both sure to be offered big bucks elsewhere I reckon Freo will be chasing Tom M (Barlow replacement) and Carlton as usual and Port Adelaide for Hewett - as you say interesting call re JPK especially if he wants huge dollars would hate to lose TM and GH and of course JPK - will be interesting times for Tom Harley to navigate
Ludwig is right in saying that they are NOT free agents. As such they can't demand to go to another club. I've been looking at this today to educate myself. The options are that they can come to an agreement on a contract. Or the player can request a trade. It is then up to the clubs to come to a mutually agreeable trade in the trade period. Good and well if they do and for hewett and especially for Mitchell we should be very well compensated in such a trade. If no agreement on a trade can be reached then the player is delisted having refused the new contract from our club. This does NOT make them a delisted free agent because a contract was offered to them and they refused. Instead if they were to continue their afl career they would need to go into the preseason draft. They can only be taken as a delisted free agent if they were delisted by their original club without having been offered a contract renewal.

That is my understanding but I am happy to be corrected.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2013-Free-Agency-Infograhpic.pdf

A flowchart for player movement.

[barry]

There is no way we would get rid of Mitchell.
Plus mcglynn and trd would be on close to a million combined

[Mug Punter]

Ludwig is right in saying that they are NOT free agents. As such they can't demand to go to another club. I've been looking at this today to educate myself. The options are that they can come to an agreement on a contract. Or the player can request a trade. It is then up to the clubs to come to a mutually agreeable trade in the trade period. Good and well if they do and for hewett and especially for Mitchell we should be very well compensated in such a trade. If no agreement on a trade can be reached then the player is delisted having refused the new contract from our club. This does NOT make them a delisted free agent because a contract was offered to them and they refused. Instead if they were to continue their afl career they would need to go into the preseason draft. They can only be taken as a delisted free agent if they were delisted by their original club without having been offered a contract renewal.

That is my understanding but I am happy to be corrected.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2013-Free-Agency-Infograhpic.pdf

A flowchart for player movement.

Yep this is my understanding as well.

My only reference to Tom was that he might look at a shorter contract to get him to the 8 years where he can test the water as a restricted free agent.

I'm not advocating losing Tom at all, I just feel he is the one we may struggle to squeeze in if a club comes in hard for him and he decides to request a trade. And the reality these days is that if a player is out of contract and requests a trade he usually finds his way there.

I expect Hewett to play 15-18 senior games minimum this year and I'd be shocked if wanted a trade at this stage of his development provided we come up with a competitive offer which for him shouldn't be a bid deal.

So. barry says Ted and Ben are on $1,000,000 a year between them. Riiiiiiight? We have a cap of $10M and we have Buddy, Tippett, Ted and Ben McGlynn taking up 30% of it. Do the math! I'd say $600K would be a lot closer to the mark but it's pure speculation really.

Until the clubs know how much they have to play with, until the CBA is finalised by 30 June, as it must be, not much will happen I'd say.

Overall I reckon we'll be pretty well placed to mop up most of our required players in July - I reckon it will be clear by mid-August which players are looking at the possibility of a trade because I think we'll move pretty quickly. And I think that it would be more than possible that they'll upgrade JPK's deal for the last year of his contract if he is prepared to sign on for an extra 2 or 3 seasons.

[barry]

Isnt the average salary in the afl $300k. Ted and mcglynn are above average and probably back loaded a bit. Ted would be on $500k+

[aguy]

Here go Carlton.

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-blues-rekindle-interest-in-offcontract-swan-tom-mitchell-20160405-gnyxuc.html

[barry]

Only 4 players in the AFL earnt $1m.

I think we can assume Buddy is one of them. Tippet would have a smaller contract extension based on a) not having to price himself to the swans in the PSD, and b) being ordinary for 3 years.

So I'd say at swans: (wild guess)
Buddy $1m..
2-3 ish at the $700K mark: Tippo, Kennedy, etc.
10's ish at the $450 - $500 mark. Ted, Grundy, Jack, etc
Bottom 8 of the best 22 at the $250K
Rest of list: Fringe/reserve players at $50K to $150k

This is the distribution at most teams. while the average salary might be $300k, there are a couple of big earners, and a @@@@ load of low earners.

[Levii3]

Here go Carlton.

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-blues-rekindle-interest-in-offcontract-swan-tom-mitchell-20160405-gnyxuc.html

Extremely annoyed by this given Parker and Hannebery signed early so they wouldn't have this mess going on during the season and being a distraction like the whole Dangerfield thing

[DamY]

Extremely annoyed by this given Parker and Hannebery signed early so they wouldn't have this mess going on during the season and being a distraction like the whole Dangerfield thing

Tommy Mitchell's manager said they have opened contract talks with the Swans and hope to stay in the Harbour City

[Mug Punter]

Extremely annoyed by this given Parker and Hannebery signed early so they wouldn't have this mess going on during the season and being a distraction like the whole Dangerfield thing

To be fair his agent is only doing his job and young Tom has probably been told by the club that he needs to earn a new contract if he wants it to be a decent offer, which he is no doubt doing.

All the noises in that article were pretty positive so you'd hope it would be nutted our fairly quickly as they start to get an idea of where the new cap will sit. Unlike last year where there was just a wall of silence re Jetta which made me very worried very early (and I'm glad we got Callum for him so it wall turned out). If he is still unsigned at the end of July consider him gone but I'd be hoping for something well before then.

Laidler is another one I'd like wrapped but he is fully replaceable (as much as I rate him) and I'd imagine we want to see a bit more of how Towers, Hewett and Lloyd go before tabling offers so they can wait until July to be wrapped up.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Excellent thread WA.

It think that we can expect Richards, McGlynn, Derickx and Johnson to either retire or be delisted. That should free up say, $900k. Nanker, Robinson and Marsh might also be on the chopping block. We need to bare in mind that our salary cap reduces at the end of the season by about $200k (from memory). So lets say we have an extra $700k to play with (excluding other delistings and recruiting). That's not a bad amount to have up your sleeve. I'd expect KJ to stay on something similar to what he is currently on, or maybe a little less.

I see our priorities as being, Mitchell, Heeney and Hewett. The later two having excellent skills which is what we need. Every man and his dog will be after Mitchell the ball magnet, but he did previously (twice I believe) select us over Carlton so hopefully he will be willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. As strange as it sounds I would be willing to lose KJ (it won't happen) if it means that we keep these three.

Papley (still early days), Lloyd, Cunningham, Towers and Melican would be great to retain and shouldn't effect our affordability.

[Levii3]

Excellent thread WA.

It think that we can expect Richards, McGlynn, Derickx and Johnson to either retire or be delisted. That should free up say, $900k. Nanker, Robinson and Marsh might also be on the chopping block. We need to bare in mind that our salary cap reduces at the end of the season by about $200k (from memory). So lets say we have an extra $700k to play with (excluding other delistings and recruiting). That's not a bad amount to have up your sleeve. I'd expect KJ to stay on something similar to what he is currently on, or maybe a little less.

I see our priorities as being, Mitchell, Heeney and Hewett. The later two having excellent skills which is what we need. Every man and his dog will be after Mitchell the ball magnet, but he did previously (twice I believe) select us over Carlton so hopefully he will be willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. As strange as it sounds I would be willing to lose KJ (it won't happen) if it means that we keep these three.

Papley (still early days), Lloyd, Cunningham, Towers and Melican would be great to retain and shouldn't effect our affordability.

Why are you so willing to release Robinson given how he's performed over the last two weeks and exceeded expectations?

Of Mitchell Hewett and Heeney its simple take Heeney and Mitchel. Hewett is well Craig bird but a little bit better Mitchell is a Gun Hewett may develop into a great player but that doesn't mean letting go of a player that is almost All Australian in Mitchell

If we lose our captain from NSW to a VIC SA or whatever club we will be ridiculed for years...With McVeigh nearing retirement possibly next year

[mcs]

Why are you so willing to release Robinson given how he's performed over the last two weeks and exceeded expectations?

Of Mitchell Hewett and Heeney its simple take Heeney and Mitchel. Hewett is well Craig bird but a little bit better Mitchell is a Gun Hewett may develop into a great player but that doesn't mean letting go of a player that is almost All Australian in Mitchell

If we lose our captain from NSW to a VIC SA or whatever club we will be ridiculed for years...With McVeigh nearing retirement possibly next year

I feel you are significantly underplaying the potential quality of Hewett.

As for KJ he is not going anywhere.

[Mug Punter]

Excellent thread WA.

It think that we can expect Richards, McGlynn, Derickx and Johnson to either retire or be delisted. That should free up say, $900k. Nanker, Robinson and Marsh might also be on the chopping block. We need to bare in mind that our salary cap reduces at the end of the season by about $200k (from memory). So lets say we have an extra $700k to play with (excluding other delistings and recruiting). That's not a bad amount to have up your sleeve. I'd expect KJ to stay on something similar to what he is currently on, or maybe a little less.

I see our priorities as being, Mitchell, Heeney and Hewett. The later two having excellent skills which is what we need. Every man and his dog will be after Mitchell the ball magnet, but he did previously (twice I believe) select us over Carlton so hopefully he will be willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. As strange as it sounds I would be willing to lose KJ (it won't happen) if it means that we keep these three.

Papley (still early days), Lloyd, Cunningham, Towers and Melican would be great to retain and shouldn't effect our affordability.

I think we'll be OK re the cap.

Sure Buddy is on $1.2m in year 4 of his mega deal next year but I would pretty much guarantee that most sides will have a $1M plus player next year if the cap jumps to $15M as is being mooted. We took a calculated gamble on the salary cap movement when we built around Buddy and Tippett and it would appear to have been paid off.

Us running a reduced list and our pay structure that has, I believe, a relatively large number of minimum or lower wage earners (until the pay their dues) helps us compete in this environment.

No way would we be losing KJ but I suspect he has been on good money for a while now and would not demand the super deal. In general players go through four stages at the swans re their contracts (probably fairly generic across most clubs)

* Rookie contract (minimum wage)
* First proper deal (offered in year 1 or 2) - two to three years at about $150,000 - $250,000
* "Big Money Deal" (the one that sets the player up financially) - four to five years at $350,000 to $700,000
* Top up deal - if still playing, get a final contract to see them through their career but probably no higher than their last deal.

Obviously we fast-tracked Reid and Mitchell due to GWS but we really only have Mitchell in the big money field, the others will kick in in a few years time. I guess it shows how important list management is from a salary cap point of view as well as talent

[Doctor]

This is why we are trying to develop and recruit players from Sydney (or NSW at least), They will, in most cases, lack historic ties to Victorian clubs and be free from speculation about moving south. Jack and Heeney will stay but generally I agree with SS Bleeder above. I think Richards may go another year but he'll sign a year to year contract at best anyway and isn't going anywhere else. I don't get the feeling that we have expensive reserves anymore as we did with Seaby et al, which should give us extra wriggle room.

[Mug Punter]

This is why we are trying to develop and recruit players from Sydney (or NSW at least), They will, in most cases, lack historic ties to Victorian clubs and be free from speculation about moving south. Jack and Heeney will stay but generally I agree with SS Bleeder above. I think Richards may go another year but he'll sign a year to year contract at best anyway and isn't going anywhere else. I don't get the feeling that we have expensive reserves anymore as we did with Seaby et al, which should give us extra wriggle room.

Correct, with COLA no more building a home grown list is vital on many levels. By my reckoning we're nudging a third of the list as NSW boys now (Rampe, Keiran, BJ, Jarrad, Mills, Robbo, Heeney, Harry, Davis, Hiscox, Naismith). It would be good to get to 20 players and a tick over 50% in the next five years.

And from what I can gather this should happen, I believe that this year (or maybe it is next) is the first year that the academy boys have been through the system since Under 11s and the quality is apparently a lot higher.

[Mug Punter]

Tom on AFL 360, asked straight out by Robbo if he'd be at the Swans next year.

Must say he didn't fill me with huge confidence, not nearly as unequivocal as young Lynch from Adelaide.

I'll only feel comfortable about him re-signing once the ink is dry on the contract

[Levii3]

Tom on AFL 360, asked straight out by Robbo if he'd be at the Swans next year.

Must say he didn't fill me with huge confidence, not nearly as unequivocal as young Lynch from Adelaide.

I'll only feel comfortable about him re-signing once the ink is dry on the contract

omg i just watched it I dislike Robbo but great question just straight out put it on the line and Coniglio laughing the whole time. At the this stage it looks like he 60 40 to stay but not holding my breathe

[tasswan]

Tom on AFL 360, asked straight out by Robbo if he'd be at the Swans next year.

Must say he didn't fill me with huge confidence, not nearly as unequivocal as young Lynch from Adelaide.

I'll only feel comfortable about him re-signing once the ink is dry on the contract

I got a different view of the answer, I think it is more likely a 90% chance he will stay. Loves the club, loves his team mates and loves living in sydney.

[mcs]

I got a different view of the answer, I think it is more likely a 90% chance he will stay. Loves the club, loves his team mates and loves living in sydney.

That's how I saw it too - fingers crossed we can get a deal done, but no doubt we are definitely waiting to see what will happen with the cap going forward.

[KTigers]

I'd be surprised if Mitchell left to go to Carlton unless the gap in the money was huge. How many gun players leave top 4 clubs to go to bottom 4 clubs?

[dimelb]

I'd be surprised if Mitchell left to go to Carlton unless the gap in the money was huge. How many gun players leave top 4 clubs to go to bottom 4 clubs?

He might do another Ablett, if (huge if) the same sort of money is offered. But I hope not. The big difference is that Gaz had a premiership or two by that time.

[Auntie.Gerald]

reality is Mills and Heeney will be in the midfield asap - i would say 2017 they will feature strong minutes

[Mug Punter]

reality is Mills and Heeney will be in the midfield asap - i would say 2017 they will feature strong minutes

If I was Tom's manager I'd be saying, "Get a decent deal with the Swans and sign for three years as I reckon your best chance of winning a flag in the next three years will be at the Swans. After that you'll still only be 26 and in your prime and then, if you want to and especially if you have a flag, we can still look at a big money 4-5 year deal under free agency if the Swans aren't close to the mark"

[royboy42]

If I was Tom's manager I'd be saying, "Get a decent deal with the Swans and sign for three years as I reckon your best chance of winning a flag in the next three years will be at the Swans. After that you'll still only be 26 and in your prime and then, if you want to and especially if you have a flag, we can still look at a big money 4-5 year deal under free agency if the Swans aren't close to the mark"

You're no mug,Mug. I agree.

[Ludwig]

Who could they possibly be talking about?


He�s famous for his dry wit, good looks and prowess on the footy field.

What a great piece of imaginative journalism from the West Australian: Sydney Swan Tom Derickx kick starts viral White Shirt campaign - The West Australian (https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/entertainment/a/31305600/sydney-swan-tom-derickx-kick-starts-viral-white-shirt-campaign/)

Tom Harley can't focus on Tom Mitchell while this Tom is coming out of contract this year. I hear Carlton has tabled a big multi-year contract with his manager. If we lose him I'm really worried about our lack of depth in key position travelling emergencies.

[707]

Tom Mitchell is playing for a very good team in contention.

Carlton is a rebuilding team that is unlikely to rebuild into a top 8 side because by the time their current and future kids are becoming solid AFL level players, they will be losing their current best players to retirement meaning they need twice the drafting strike rate as already top sides like us. Carlton were an older side than us last week!

Why would you jump ship to a team that is an unlikely finalist whilst you are playing? Why would you go to a team where you will get tagged because you aren't surrounded by midfield guns like you are at the Swans? Mitchell won't be going to Carlton!

There will almost certainly be a massive rise in the cap from next year, Buddy will look cheap then, so will Tippett, we don't have cap problems to sweat about.

[Mug Punter]

Tom Mitchell is playing for a very good team in contention.

Carlton is a rebuilding team that is unlikely to rebuild into a top 8 side because by the time their current and future kids are becoming solid AFL level players, they will be losing their current best players to retirement meaning they need twice the drafting strike rate as already top sides like us. Carlton were an older side than us last week!

Why would you jump ship to a team that is an unlikely finalist whilst you are playing? Why would you go to a team where you will get tagged because you aren't surrounded by midfield guns like you are at the Swans? Mitchell won't be going to Carlton!

There will almost certainly be a massive rise in the cap from next year, Buddy will look cheap then, so will Tippett, we don't have cap problems to sweat about.

It is increasingly looking like we took a calculated gamble on the Salary Cap going north at a rapid rate from 2017 and you'd think we have nailed that bet.

As a result Buddy's deal will not look as outrageous as it seems. Try telling me that Fyfe won't be on $1.5m a year when he is out of contract at the end of next year.

The only disadvantage we'll have from Buddy's deal as I see it is that we might be carrying him on overs (if he plays at all) in seasons 8 and 9 of his deal.

[stellation]

Tom Mitchell is playing for a very good team in contention.

Carlton is a rebuilding team that is unlikely to rebuild into a top 8 side because by the time their current and future kids are becoming solid AFL level players, they will be losing their current best players to retirement meaning they need twice the drafting strike rate as already top sides like us. Carlton were an older side than us last week!

Why would you jump ship to a team that is an unlikely finalist whilst you are playing? Why would you go to a team where you will get tagged because you aren't surrounded by midfield guns like you are at the Swans? Mitchell won't be going to Carlton!

There will almost certainly be a massive rise in the cap from next year, Buddy will look cheap then, so will Tippett, we don't have cap problems to sweat about.
It may simply come down to how great a gap there is financially- we know we've already had to offer Tom a sizable chunk of cash just to join us as a father/son selection instead of heading over to GWS, so as much as we'd like to think in a situation like this we have lovable Barry saying "stay put, boyo!" I think there's definitely a degree of shrewd, financial cunning in the Mitchell camp. Which is perfectly fine.

Whilst we're in a more attractive position than GWS, Treloar opted to move at the end of last year because of money- he publicly acknowledged that if GWS could come close to the other offers he would stay as he was happy there/saw a strong future, the club didn't and Treloar walked. From what I can gather the gap was quite significant both per season and in number of guaranteed years. If Tom was put in a similar situation with Carlton I really wouldn't be surprised if he took the offer- $300 k difference over a 4-5 year contract is a lot of money to leave on the table (I think that was roughly the Treloar difference, as an example).

[Mug Punter]

It may simply come down to how great a gap there is financially- we know we've already had to offer Tom a sizable chunk of cash just to join us as a father/son selection instead of heading over to GWS, so as much as we'd like to think in a situation like this we have lovable Barry saying "stay put, boyo!" I think there's definitely a degree of shrewd, financial cunning in the Mitchell camp. Which is perfectly fine.

Whilst we're in a more attractive position than GWS, Treloar opted to move at the end of last year because of money- he publicly acknowledged that if GWS could come close to the other offers he would stay as he was happy there/saw a strong future, the club didn't and Treloar walked. From what I can gather the gap was quite significant both per season and in number of guaranteed years. If Tom was put in a similar situation with Carlton I really wouldn't be surprised if he took the offer- $300 k difference over a 4-5 year contract is a lot of money to leave on the table (I think that was roughly the Treloar difference, as an example).

The reality is that good players, especially from strong clubs, can just about always command better coin elsewhere.

In our favour Tom is probably aware he has been very well paid, quite possibly overpaid, to date and he does seem settled. Nevertheless I don't begrudge players setting themselves up because it is a brutal sport and a short career. Tom probably has a price like everyone else whereby he'd be tempted to leave, a six year $4.5m deal for instance would be hard to knowck back for a 23 year old. But I think overall we should be able to come close enough for a deal even if it is just to get him through to free agency because it would be highly unlikely for him to win a flag at Carlton and ultimately that will be an overriding factor

[stellation]

The reality is that good players, especially from strong clubs, can just about always command better coin elsewhere.

In our favour Tom is probably aware he has been very well paid, quite possibly overpaid, to date and he does seem settled. Nevertheless I don't begrudge players setting themselves up because it is a brutal sport and a short career. Tom probably has a price like everyone else whereby he'd be tempted to leave, a six year $4.5m deal for instance would be hard to knowck back for a 23 year old. But I think overall we should be able to come close enough for a deal even if it is just to get him through to free agency because it would be highly unlikely for him to win a flag at Carlton and ultimately that will be an overriding factor
I certainly hope we can, even with having a couple of exciting young assumed eventual midfield stars in Heeney and Mills I think that Tom is absolutely crucial for us based on his age (and obviously skills as well!).

[KTigers]

Over the decade or so years Hawthorn, Geelong and us have proved it's possible to maintain a team of stars together (9 of the last 11 premierships between them) in the age of the salary cap. You have to keep winning, and you have to have a winning culture. There will always be the odd star player that will leave (in our case Malceski). Tom Mitchell has been at the Swans for a while now, and has become part of the furniture. He probably feels pretty good being part of a multiple All Australian midfield and is now mentioned in the same breadth as Kennedy, Hanners, Parker & Jack. I think it would take a vast pile of money to drag him from that.

[Luke Shannon]

I believe that these guys will be gone at the end of the year:

- Tom Derickx (Delisted - No hope of staying on).
- Ben McGlynn (Retired - The emergence of Papley, Rose and Hewitt will probably lead to McGlynn not getting a contract extension).
- Ted Richards (Retired - Probably doing the club a favour by playing on due to the lack of progress of his brother and Aliir. Retirement likely).
- Alex Johnson (Retired - I don't think the club will give him 2017 to progress).
- Aliir / X Richards (Delisted - The club may pick one of the two to delist and give the other a final chance in 2017).

The following guys will be close to leaving but could get one more chance in 2017:

- Aliir / X Richards (The club may decide to delist both Aliire and X Richards, but I think one will stay on).
- Brandon Jack (Could be close to being delisted but could get a chance in 2017 due to five other possible list changes above his).
- Toby Nankervis (Close to being delisted but Ruckman are readily injured and he may provide cover in 2017).

Rookie Upgrades:

Tom Papley (Will be a definite upgrade at the end of 2016).
Harrison Marsh (Playing brilliantly in the reserves according to reserve viewers. After four years of development, 2017 may be his year).

Market place:

Will have to assess the situation with players yet to sign for 2017. If Mitchell were to vacate then the Swans will probably look to upgrade their 1st round pick and draft a young key position player (Daniel McStay type) in the 1st round. The Swans would jump at any delisted free agents who were able KPD.

Academy

Is there any Key Position talent coming through the academy in the next two years?

[Conor_Dillon]

I believe that these guys will be gone at the end of the year:
- Brandon Jack (Could be close to being delisted but could get a chance in 2017 due to five other possible list changes above his).


B.Jack is contracted until the end of 2017...really hard to see him being anything other than a depth option until that expires though

[707]

Hooker and Hurley can be FA at years end by exercising a clause that Essendon failed in their duty of care. Only one suspended Bomber has recommitted to re-sign for next year.

Hooker is from WA so highly likely to lob at Freo who have a need and plenty of $.

Hurley is more 50/50, the kind of player lurable to Hawthorn but if he wants to leave behind his bogan mates in Melb and make a fresh start with us I'd be very happy.

Surely we would do everything possible to find a very good KPD given this is almost certainly Ted's last year and Reg will be over 30. Fingers crossed Talia can make the grade.

On the others discussed, Derrickx is gone, XR likely to be, Marsh is on his last lifeline. Aliir looks to be developing, BJ is stagnating but contracted for 2017. Everyone else is showing something, Melican just needs a good run with injuries.

[Cosmic Wizard]

We need a real cull!!!

Horse has always being too soft with the older players, unlike Hawthorn.

Was never sold on XR, or Nankervis; a ruckman need pace and endurance these days, why did we recruit him in the first place???

As for BJ, we need elite kicking skills and hardness, which he has not just got.

Also need to get rid off Benny, Teddy, and dare I say mcveigh??

A knee injury at his age spell the end, and four round in, with no sight, it time to call it.

He should not play until he proves himself in the 2s, and then only sparingly.

All great careers come to end, he should be show the door!

[Mug Punter]

We need a real cull!!!

Horse has always being too soft with the older players, unlike Hawthorn.

Was never sold on XR, or Nankervis; a ruckman need pace and endurance these days, why did we recruit him in the first place???

As for BJ, we need elite kicking skills and hardness, which he has not just got.

Also need to get rid off Benny, Teddy, and dare I say mcveigh??

A knee injury at his age spell the end, and four round in, with no sight, it time to call it.

He should not play until he proves himself in the 2s, and then only sparingly.

All great careers come to end, he should be show the door!

Yes we really are in a right mess at the moment aren't we? :hmmm:hmmmm2:

BJ and Jarad are both contracted until next year so you'd hope the club would honour those I hope. Your comments re Jarad are pretty disrespectful in my book, FFS give him a chance to come back he's not the first football player to get an injury. He may be struggling to play on past 2017 but I wouldn't write him off.

I agree with a bit of what you and Luke Shannan say. Xav, Nanka and AA have to be under the microscope and clearly Tom Dx is not up to it at senior AFL level. Alex won't be renewed on the senior list. Ben and Ted will be 32 and 34 respectively at the end of next year and you'd think they'd be struggling for a new contract but if Ted plays like he has the last two weeks all season there'll be a new contract available so I feel one may get an extra season. We may also see Nanka kept on as I think we'd like four ruckman on this list.

So, for mine we'd be well on track for six out. We don't do culls at the Swans so I'd be saying two rookie upgrades (Papley and Newman or Marsh), three draftees and a KPD free agent if we can find one...

[Levii3]

According to 3aw we and the Brisbane Lions are interested in Jack Steele (GWS) is this a back up for if Mitchell leaves or.. A genuine recruit to start like Kennedy?

[Cosmic Wizard]

Yes we really are in a right mess at the moment aren't we? :hmmm:hmmmm2:

BJ and Jarad are both contracted until next year so you'd hope the club would honour those I hope. Your comments re Jarad are pretty disrespectful in my book, FFS give him a chance to come back he's not the first football player to get an injury. He may be struggling to play on past 2017 but I wouldn't write him off.

I agree with a bit of what you and Luke Shannan say. Xav, Nanka and AA have to be under the microscope and clearly Tom Dx is not up to it at senior AFL level. Alex won't be renewed on the senior list. Ben and Ted will be 32 and 34 respectively at the end of next year and you'd think they'd be struggling for a new contract but if Ted plays like he has the last two weeks all season there'll be a new contract available so I feel one may get an extra season. We may also see Nanka kept on as I think we'd like four ruckman on this list.

So, for mine we'd be well on track for six out. We don't do culls at the Swans so I'd be saying two rookie upgrades (Papley and Newman or Marsh), three draftees and a KPD free agent if we can find one...

Look being undefeated is good, but have we really played anyone who is a lock for a top four??

Lets wait and see when we play Hawthorn, the true yardstick of the comp, where we really are.

Legitimate contenders or a yard or two off the pace.

We have some holes in out ranks; and having money by retiring older players is one way of getting some awesome trades.

That and cleaning out players who have had four to five years on the list and aren't part of the best 25

[Mug Punter]

Look being undefeated is good, but have we really played anyone who is a lock for a top four??

Lets wait and see when we play Hawthorn, the true yardstick of the comp, where we really are.

Legitimate contenders or a yard or two off the pace.

We have some holes in out ranks; and having money by retiring older players is one way of getting some awesome trades.

That and cleaning out players who have had four to five years on the list and aren't part of the best 25

I think we'll have a really good idea after the Crows and Eagles.

Think we'll see more evolution rather than rebuild, Towers, Robbo and Hewett are testament to us giving players time to develop bit reckon we'll see reasonable turnover at the end of this season after effectively not delisting anyone last year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Nanka kept on as a list player at minimum wage and for some defenders (Marsh, AA and Xav) it is most definitely a make or break season

[wolftone57]

Those at risk on our list have to be Derrickx, Hiscox, Marsh, Johnson (if his knee doesn't come good), Foote and Melican.

Foote is a pretty solid player but disposal can be an issue, he would be likely to make it at another club. Very hard at it inside mid.

Hiscox has not shown enough and his disposal is sub-standard for AFL. If he doesn't pick this up by the end of the year he might just find himself delisted, fast or not.

Derrickx was depth just in case a ruckman got injured and now we have Galloway as a developer, Nankervis, Naismith on a long contract, Tippett and Sinclair. Tom will be delisted.

Marsh is playing some good footy and he might attract some bidders from other sides.

Melican has done nothing wrong except get injured. But he might just be a victim of the late start.

Richards and McGlinn I believe will retire at the end of the season.

Newman may be moved on but I wouldn't think so yet. Murray, Papley are both in their first year. We have had a good look at Tom Papley and he's a beauty. I believe Murray might just shock a few people too now he is back from his injury. Time for these two.

X richards needs to develop this year, same with Aliir although I think they always though of Aliir as a long term prospect and he's starting to develop nicely. X still makes the same rookie mistakes he did in his first year like poor decision making or dithering over options. Needs to think quicker.

[Maltopia]

With a list of 44 plus international rookies, we (and other clubs) will have players that they know won't ever make it into the 1s, but add something to the club. E.g., leadership/mentoring for the 2s, providing a strong 2s performance (to help those with real potential get proper development) etc.

I think Ryan O'Keefe may have been kept on the list in his final year partly to be a hard body in the 2s to protect some of the younger developing players.

Aliir along with any potential upside as a football player also gives us the benefit of having someone who gives us something very different in the AFL Multicultural Ambassador program which will help grow the game and supporter base for the Swans. E.g., more fans from African backgrounds.

AJ is providing mentoring/coaching, but also what a great story/promotion he gives us in terms of his personal resilience, and the Swans sticking by him.

Nankers and Derickx - we need two-three ruckmen for the 2s (to cover injury/depth) so the younger players can develop/learn the game plan in real match conditions (winning half the hit-outs). Plus to cover injury in the 1s. We need Naismith to be injured less and Galloway to develop. Plus it takes a long time to develop a new ruckman.

As long as the list isn't "carrying" players at the expense of not getting players we would have otherwise drafted/traded for, then really, all we need to do each year is the mandatory list cuts (which include retirements announced in time). I think with Ted and Benny possibly retiring, we would only be looking to delist another three players to give us five picks in the national and pre-season draft before considering any trades?

I don't think a list cull is required as you will find the same sorts of players we have been talking about on the lists of other top clubs.

[S.S. Bleeder]

According to 3aw we and the Brisbane Lions are interested in Jack Steele (GWS) is this a back up for if Mitchell leaves or.. A genuine recruit to start like Kennedy?

That's a concern. We would only be interested in him if we thought that Mitchell was going to leave.

[Nico]

We have a plethora of midfielders even without Mitchell. Just another media made up rumour. They have gone early this year on "the old Tom Mitchell" rumour.

[aardvark]

If Carlton want Mitchell i'd swap him for Weitering in a heart beat.:wink:

[iigrover]

Excellent thread WA.

Papley (still early days), Lloyd, Cunningham, Towers and Melican would be great to retain and shouldn't effect our affordability.

Harry's just signed a three year extension.

[Ludwig]

A lot of pundits saying Carlton should trade Gibbs out. What's the point of trading one top midfielder out and get another in. I don't see how this helps their side except going a few years younger. I think we are doing the perfect thing to hold on to Mitchell. We're challenging for a premiership. Going to Carlton means end of a competitive career and just playing for the money.

If Towers can't manage to hold down a spot this year he will probably be on the trade table. There are too many coming through the system that will challenge his spot. At the very least Rose and Dawson. I hope he makes it, but he needs to take his chances now.

[Cosmic Wizard]

Just to move this thread on a bit.

Essendon can't keep all of its top ups and the 12 suspended players so there are a couple of gems there.

And moving away from Melbourne for some of them would be ideal.

Dyson Heppell, after suing the club, is not going back.

He is quality, and that is what we always need rather that just depth players.

We should be on the phone to his manager now!

[chalbilto]

Heppell is a quality player but I would rather that they make play for Hurley as we need a replacement for Teddy. We have plenty of quality mid-field players on the roster.

[Doctor]

Heppell is a quality player but I would rather that they make play for Hurley as we need a replacement for Teddy. We have plenty of quality mid-field players on the roster.

Couldn't agree more.

[stellation]

That's a concern. We would only be interested in him if we thought that Mitchell was going to leave.
I think pretty much every team in the AFL would be interested in him if he's genuinely available, I wouldn't read too much into it.

[707]

Be an interesting trade period and draft.

How many of the Essendon 12 will exercise their right to become FA? If some of the big guns leave Essendon will monopolise the start of the draft. Say Hurley, Heppell and Hooker left, Essendon would have picks 1,2,3,4!

There are several younger top ups in the Essendon side that are showing enough to get drafted at the ND. Of interest to us must be KPD Hartley a NSW boy. Essendon have no rights on these guys and if they want them must draft them the same as any other team.

The ND - GWS have at least three first round selections, Gold Coast have two plus three second rounders. There are a number of very good GWS Academy players, not sure if any of ours will be draftable.

Our first round selection this year will be pick 18, or pick 21 if the Essendon big three fly to nest :-)

[RogueSwan]

... Heppell, after suing the club, is not going back.

He is quality, and that is what we always need rather that just depth players.

We should be on the phone to his manager now!

Heppel will stay on with the Bombers, he will settle out of court and it will be one way for Essendon to pay him more outside of the salary cap.

[chalbilto]

Heppel will stay on with the Bombers, he will settle out of court and it will be one way for Essendon to pay him more outside of the salary cap.

Hadn't really thought about that. Surely this loophole has to be addressed by Gillion & co. It would be an unfair advantage and Eddie would have to protest.

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Heppel will stay on with the Bombers, he will settle out of court and it will be one way for Essendon to pay him more outside of the salary cap.
We need a KPD ot two. HURLEY and one other. Let Bombers pay him and then we pick him up.

Hurley is the prototype we require.

Teddy & Reg have been total guns & top 10 defenders for years but their ground ball pressure and lack of agility/foot speed have been exposed over the last 18 months.

We can play both at the SCG but nowhere else. Ramps to CHB (play like Rance), Reg still at FB, back flank to Jones, Marsh, Newman or Aliir.

McVeigh kicked poorly at HBF but our best/ smart HFF.

Much better for me and I believe both Reid and Rohan have plenty to offer.

[Mug Punter]

Heppell is a quality player but I would rather that they make play for Hurley as we need a replacement for Teddy. We have plenty of quality mid-field players on the roster.

I'm not sure we'd be in the race for Hurley but I guess if he was keen to come up here it would be a great one-off chance to get a prime player in a position we need and not pay anything in terms of drafting. I'd also look at our first rounder this year getting the best available KPD as we're pretty well stocked for mids and forwards these days

We can't be na�ve about our cap space and if we want Hurley then even with the new TV deal we'd probably have to ship out one decent player. Ted would shift some space but we'd need more than that. Personally I'd be preferring Reid to be traded than Tom but one of those two could be a salary cap casualty. And if we did trade Reid we'd be getting a gun KPD in his place and a first round draft pick at the very minimum which we could take in 2017 when we'll need the trade currency for the next batch of academy graduates.

I'd be very very surprised if we are not sniffing very very closely around Hurley and we could be the ideal destination for a player looking at re-building his career.

[barry]

You would never waste a 1st rounder on a defender. Leave that to Richmond.

[Benevolent Ert]

There are several younger top ups in the Essendon side that are showing enough to get drafted at the ND. Of interest to us must be KPD Hartley a NSW boy. Essendon have no rights on these guys and if they want them must draft them the same as any other team.



Don't think Hartley is a top up. He was previously on Collingwood's rookie list, but was drafted by the Bombers at the last draft.

[Ludwig]

It's far too early to be projecting our needs for next year. Our tall defender stocks are rightfully under question, but as the year rolls on we may find it's not such a problem at all. Talia looks very capable of filling Ted's spot and would be my choice if not for his injury. It was good to see the weeks coming down on Talia, who is now listed at 4 to 8 in the injury list. Aliir seems to be getting good reviews and will hopefully get a chance to show what he's got at AFL level sometime soon. I would love to see him play on Josh Schache in 2 weeks time and perhaps the following week against Essendon. If he comes through then we have the core of our future defense right there.

Sam Reid has had his injury and consistency problems, but I still think versatile players like him are very hard to find and wouldn't be looking to trade him. Hurley is a very good defender, but why waste a big chunk of our salary cap if he's not really needed. Let's not forget that Abe Davis is developing well and is likely to be challenging for a senior roll in the not too distant future. He's probably better as a forward, which would allow Reid to play in defense or on the wing.

I like the early signs from Melican. He has good skills and pace and looks a decent prospect. And who knows, AJ might get lucky this time and will be all fixed up and ready to go next year.

If we do want to add to our key defender stocks we will have a first round pick and no academy players to choose from this year. There are a few good prospects that should be available when our turn comes, including Jarrod Korewha, who trained with us in January and looks to be an athletic type we see in the modern defender.

If we do go after a listed player, I would be looking at GWS. They will have a hard time fitting in all of Davis, Corr, Marchbank and Haynes into their defence. I don't know what will happen with Tomlinson and Stewart as both will have problems finding a spot in their side and are likely to be looking for opportunities elsewhere. And GSW will also be adding 2 additional talented KPPs from their academy this year in McCreadie and Sproule, both rated 1st round picks. But the one I would be looking at is Jeremy Finlayson, who was a late pick from their academy in 2014 and is developing very nicely as a quick athletic tall defender, but surely won't find a place in their young talented defence. He probably wouldn't cost all that much. The Giants keep needing to make space for fresh talent.

[Conor_Dillon]

Hurley was allegedly seen having lunch with McVeigh and Tom Harley...we must be somewhat interested.

[S.S. Bleeder]

Hurley was allegedly seen having lunch with McVeigh and Tom Harley...we must be somewhat interested.

Wow! When? Where? Wouldn't you think that they'd be more discrete about it?

[DA_Swan]

Bulldogs found Marcus Adams in WAFL so good young defenders are out there - just need need an opportunity

[Cosmic Wizard]

Sam Reid is a must player to keep!

Big men take big time to develop.

He showed, until injury, he was more than capable of winning games for us.

2012 GF, had some great moments; same with the QF against freo.:adore

We just need to wait, and reap the benefits !

[Matt79]

Sam Reid is a must player to keep!

Big men take big time to develop.

He showed, until injury, he was more than capable of winning games for us.

2012 GF, had some great moments; same with the QF against freo.:adore

We just need to wait, and reap the benefits !

I'd like to see us develop him into a tall defender like his brother. He just needs an injury free run to maximise his undoubted potential.

[royboy42]

Hurley was allegedly seen having lunch with McVeigh and Tom Harley...we must be somewhat interested.

What is the source for this Conor?

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Found a thread on Big Footy from last Friday. Allegedly in Melbourne Cafe but we were in Adelaide!!!!!. Admiralty Rating E4.

[Luke Shannon]

I think with the solid performance over the weekend, Nankervis will convince the Swans mangement that he can slot nicely into that 3rd or 4th ruckman position on the list.

AA looks like he is leading the race to pick up another contract ahead of X Richards. I think only one will be at the Swans next year.

[Mug Punter]

I think with the solid performance over the weekend, Nankervis will convince the Swans mangement that he can slot nicely into that 3rd or 4th ruckman position on the list.

AA looks like he is leading the race to pick up another contract ahead of X Richards. I think only one will be at the Swans next year.

I'd think Nanka will stay on as a list player as backup but Tom Dx is certainly gone.

I'd have no problem with keeping Reid but my point was that if we did go after Hurley we'd almost certainly need to offload someone on decent coin and Reid would be an option

[bloodspirit]

Hurley was allegedly seen having lunch with McVeigh and Tom Harley...we must be somewhat interested.

Are you starting this rumour yourself?

[bloodspirit]

Heppel will stay on with the Bombers, he will settle out of court and it will be one way for Essendon to pay him more outside of the salary cap.

Very interesting point. I think it could be difficult to guard against this. How can you close such a 'loophole'?

[TheDaneTrain]

You would never waste a 1st rounder on a defender. Leave that to Richmond.

Didnt we get Ted with a first rounder?

[YvonneH]

Even if Ted was a 1st rounder I think he played more as a forward for Essendon and we made him into a defender ( a very good one at that).

[ugg]

Didnt we get Ted with a first rounder?
We gave Essendon a first round AND a third round pick.

[YvonneH]

We gave Essendon a first round AND a third round pick.

In hindsight I would say we won that trade. Who did they pick, does anyone know?

[jono2707]

In hindsight I would say we won that trade. Who did they pick, does anyone know?

They got Courtney Dempsey and Sam Lonergan, so they did ok. But we did better.

[WauchopeAnalyst]

With Kizza getting a further 3 years, Mitchell is now in the Treloar category, last man standing and huge money from Carlton.

[YvonneH]

With Kizza getting a further 3 years, Mitchell is now in the Treloar category, last man standing and huge money from Carlton.

About to say the same thing except it was Jetta as last man standing. Hope I am wrong.

[Mug Punter]

With Kizza getting a further 3 years, Mitchell is now in the Treloar category, last man standing and huge money from Carlton.

It's possible and the longer we go now without Tom re-signing the more likely this becomes. We're clearly very actively re-signing players now and if we don't hear anything positive in three weeks I reckon he is gone. Hewett I expect to re-sign as well and Robbo , Paley and Lloyd who should be fairly straightforward re-signings as well along the lines of Harry.

Towers may well be in notice though I'd like us to persevere with him if the price is right.

I still think he'll re-sign but it may well be that we do the maths and decide that we lock in Heeney and Mills to long term deals instead and trade Tom. He's be worth real trade value and I could see a trade with Tom being a player plus pick that addresses our very immediate need for a KPD though I think it is possible Ted could go on for one more year.

I'd like to keep Tom very much but regardless of what happens we'll have the core of a very very good squad to be firmly in the premiership window for the next three years

[Bloody Hell]

Very interesting point. I think it could be difficult to guard against this. How can you close such a 'loophole'?

You don't. It's a civil matter and quite frankly Heppell, and the rest of the players affected deserve everything they get. The only thing youy hope for is it's enough to bankrupt Essendon.

Essendon was never going to win the premiership this year, and it will turn into a great year for them. They're able to pump games into their youngsters, give a years rest to their top players and come out the end of it will good draft picks. It will give them a great launch pad for a shot in the next 4-5 years.

[Nico]

With Kizza getting a further 3 years, Mitchell is now in the Treloar category, last man standing and huge money from Carlton.

I know a chap who is a good friend of Barry Mitchell and he says he has never been interested in Carlton. Why would he want to go to a club that isn't going to have success in donkeys years. Again just someone from the 10,000 accredited AFL journo club who struggles to find a story so makes it up.

- - - Updated - - -


You don't. It's a civil matter and quite frankly Heppell, and the rest of the players affected deserve everything they get. The only thing youy hope for is it's enough to bankrupt Essendon.

Essendon was never going to win the premiership this year, and it will turn into a great year for them. They're able to pump games into their youngsters, give a years rest to their top players and come out the end of it will good draft picks. It will give them a great launch pad for a shot in the next 4-5 years.

They had an ordinary list last year. They will lose a lot of their better players to other clubs. They will be down with Carlton for a long time.

[WolfGang]

Bloody Hell - Essendon is one of the wealthier clubs - with a billionaire in their ex Chairman - Little (who owns Toll transport) so while the fines will impact them, they are not part of any salary cap - so impact on drafting players. { Who do you think that paid Hirds fine ??? }
If you listen to SEN in Melbourne as I do - they have mentioned that 2 of the 12 suspended players have already re-signed to into 2017 and beyond - Colyer and someone else that I don't rember.
If Essendon loose even 2 to 3 players - they will likely receive early round 1 draft pick compensation - so if Hooker (age 28) goes to Freo - and any other players - Essendon may get a draft picks that turns out to be in the top 5 picks - they are likely to be bottom 4 anyway - so if players go - and players leave - they could end up with 3 to 4 picks in the rd 1 of draft picks.
All they need to do is find the next Weitering - and they have a win, win year.

[Mug Punter]

You don't. It's a civil matter and quite frankly Heppell, and the rest of the players affected deserve everything they get. The only thing youy hope for is it's enough to bankrupt Essendon.

Essendon was never going to win the premiership this year, and it will turn into a great year for them. They're able to pump games into their youngsters, give a years rest to their top players and come out the end of it will good draft picks. It will give them a great launch pad for a shot in the next 4-5 years.

No way could Essendon be bankrupted and out of business but I could well see the impact of class actions make them seriously have to consider selling a controlling stake to private interests. And they'd have no shortage of bidders because long term they are a blue chip club. They just have poor market sentiment at the moment :)

[Bloods05]

Wow! When? Where? Wouldn't you think that they'd be more discrete about it?

Lunch is pretty discrete. Brunch, not so much.

[Levii3]

Just watched the Dockers game they are 0-5 Ross Lyon doesn't know how to build and regenerate a team i think we should make a play for Stephen Hill he still only 25 he's quick a good kick can play midfield or link player out of D would be a great addition highly unlikely but I hope we try

[Maltopia]

Just watched the Dockers game they are 0-5 Ross Lyon doesn't know how to build and regenerate a team i think we should make a play for Stephen Hill he still only 25 he's quick a good kick can play midfield or link player out of D would be a great addition highly unlikely but I hope we try

Hill is contracted till the end of 2019 and has family in WA (very important for an Indigenous player). Who would we trade for him that is willing to go to WA?

Lachie Neal (from SA) is a more likely prospects as he is out of contract this year, and the longer it isn't signed, the greater the chance that he is looking to leave (like some are saying about our own Mitchell). Barlow and Mayne are also out of contract at the end of this year. Mayne is from WA and is a 6'2" forward so both unlikely and not a good fit. Barlow is from Victoria and a big midfielder, but he is the same age as Kennedy so can't see us wanting him either.

[707]

Need a very good KPD and some outside speed. Reckon we may already be in a few ears to address those needs as trade or FA. Think we may be able to address other less pressing needs internally.

Just hoping Fitzmuppet and the other VFL commissioners don't invent some kind of trade ban because we had a good season with Buddy and Tippett starring!

[S.S. Bleeder]

I know a chap who is a good friend of Barry Mitchell and he says he has never been interested in Carlton. Why would he want to go to a club that isn't going to have success in donkeys years. Again just someone from the 10,000 accredited AFL journo club who struggles to find a story so makes it up.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd put a lot of faith in that information. Carlton have tried to coax him twice previously and he said no on those occasions. I fail to see what has changed since then, infact, if anything, he has more reason to stay.

[Mug Punter]

I'd put a lot of faith in that information. Carlton have tried to coax him twice previously and he said no on those occasions. I fail to see what has changed since then, infact, if anything, he has more reason to stay.

Provided we can get a decent offer on the table, and you'd assume we are able to with the new TV deal, then I'd think our start to the season and the fact that he is happy here would see him take slight unders. The reality is that good players, especially those at strong clubs, can just about always go for more money but more than often they don't.

We've set young Tom up for life with his $2.5m deal over his first five years and whilst that doesn't mean he won't take a commercial approach to negotiations he certainly won't feel a need for the big pay deal to set him up after being paid modestly. As long as we are within the ballpark I'd say he'll stay but, as I've said before, if I was him I'd only take three years and then see how he feels after eight years.

The main thing that drives players is winning flags and Carton are a loooooong way off that :)

[Maltopia]

The other challenge/consideration for Mitchell is that both Heeney and Mills are midfielders and will be pushing to play there in the next 2-3 years, so it is going to be quite crowded in there. We have seen that Mitchell whilst a great tackler, doesn't seem to do so well as a half forward or tagger.

[Mug Punter]

The other challenge/consideration for Mitchell is that both Heeney and Mills are midfielders and will be pushing to play there in the next 2-3 years, so it is going to be quite crowded in there. We have seen that Mitchell whilst a great tackler, doesn't seem to do so well as a half forward or tagger.

I'm not convinced either Heeny or Mills are as good inside as Tom, he's very much a certain starter in my book.

Heeney I can see staying up forward long term. His knee tendonitis is well documented and it's why he hasn't really bulked up much over the off season. And it also is why they play him up front, to manage the wear and tear. Personally I'd keep him up there he is that good, I can see him being the best small to mid forward in the game. With his leap and vicelike hands he can play tall and he is cat-like on the ground, he just never seems to lose his feet.

I think that it may get to the stage where we lose more in the forward line that we'd gain in the midfield.

[Beerman]

Heppel will stay on with the Bombers, he will settle out of court and it will be one way for Essendon to pay him more outside of the salary cap.


Hadn't really thought about that. Surely this loophole has to be addressed by Gillion & co. It would be an unfair advantage and Eddie would have to protest.


Very interesting point. I think it could be difficult to guard against this. How can you close such a 'loophole'?


You don't. It's a civil matter and quite frankly Heppell, and the rest of the players affected deserve everything they get. The only thing youy hope for is it's enough to bankrupt Essendon.

Essendon was never going to win the premiership this year, and it will turn into a great year for them. They're able to pump games into their youngsters, give a years rest to their top players and come out the end of it will good draft picks. It will give them a great launch pad for a shot in the next 4-5 years.

There was an article on the AFL website about this. The short version is that it gets very messy, but they will be reviewing new contracts with the banned players to make sure that they are "commercial". ie. they will try and make sure that whatever compensation the players are payed is *in addition* to what they get paid to play under the salary cap, rather than *instead of* of payments for playing.

[dimelb]

Tom strikes me as mainly a see ball, get ball, fire ball to outside type. His kicking has improved IMO, and his sense of position makes up any lack in speed. He is freakishly good at what he does and I think it's a straightforward matter to keep him doing it.

[DA_Swan]

I know we cannot keep everybody but i hope George Hewett is not lost back to either of the Adelaide clubs as he has good skill and size about him - he will be more than a depth player in time.

[mcs]

I know we cannot keep everybody but i hope George Hewett is not lost back to either of the Adelaide clubs as he has good skill and size about him - he will be more than a depth player in time.

We are playing the long game with George - he had two good years of learning in the NEAFL (was superb last year in a number of games), and is gradually finding his feet in the seniors. I put him in front of Robinson per say, and think he is a keeper that we will be very keen to keep on the list for the long term. I agree that he will be much more than a depth player in time, and he will only get better in time as he plays more seniors footy. He had more than a decent game against the Eagles on the weekend.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not convinced either Heeny or Mills are as good inside as Tom, he's very much a certain starter in my book.

Heeney I can see staying up forward long term. His knee tendonitis is well documented and it's why he hasn't really bulked up much over the off season. And it also is why they play him up front, to manage the wear and tear. Personally I'd keep him up there he is that good, I can see him being the best small to mid forward in the game. With his leap and vicelike hands he can play tall and he is cat-like on the ground, he just never seems to lose his feet.

I think that it may get to the stage where we lose more in the forward line that we'd gain in the midfield.

Its going to get crowded in the forward line too - and there is for once a really good looking balance up front, with the obvious Franklin as the key forward, Tippett/Sinclair as the second tall, potentially some time for Reid when he is fit again, plus the wonderful skills of Heeney, the midget brigade of Papley and McGlynn (And Rose waiting in the wings for a chance).

I still think Heeney will move to the midfield in time - but when we have such good depth in there at the moment, there is certainly no rush at all.

[Ludwig]

I know we cannot keep everybody but i hope George Hewett is not lost back to either of the Adelaide clubs as he has good skill and size about him - he will be more than a depth player in time. George appears a happy Swan and doubt he will be seeking to move to back to Adelaide. Tom Harley said that George was important part of the Swans' future, and given his first 4 senior games, you can see why. I hope we sign him up to a long term contract. He's one of our new group of players that can actually find the right target and hit that target consistently. There's no substitution for good disposal and decision making. I hope we use the next couple of games as an opportunity to play George more in the midfield. It should help his development and give us a better idea of what his long term value will be.

As for our KPDs, we need to decide who is next in line, given injuries to both Ted and Talia. Aliir has gotten most of the kudos so far this year, but X hasn't played badly, but hasn't been prominent. I don't think we will carry both into next year.

[Mug Punter]

George appears a happy Swan and doubt he will be seeking to move to back to Adelaide. Tom Harley said that George was important part of the Swans' future, and given his first 4 senior games, you can see why. I hope we sign him up to a long term contract. He's one of our new group of players that can actually find the right target and hit that target consistently. There's no substitution for good disposal and decision making. I hope we use the next couple of games as an opportunity to play George more in the midfield. It should help his development and give us a better idea of what his long term value will be.

As for our KPDs, we need to decide who is next in line, given injuries to both Ted and Talia. Aliir has gotten most of the kudos so far this year, but X hasn't played badly, but hasn't been prominent. I don't think we will carry both into next year.

I suspect we'll be going to the trade or free agency table to get a KPF and I don't really have a problem with that because I have my doubst about any of our ressies being genuine senior KPDs, Xav was one we were hoping for but he just doesn't seem to have kicked on. It would be nice if the academy had some KPDs in the pipeline.

Colin O'Riordan has the makings of a strapping half back flanker and Rampe is developing into a defender who can take the third tall so I think we're probably just one frontline KPD short.

[Nico]

Isn't it amazing; last year people were calling for Rampe to go into the midfield;"A natural midfielder".

[Ludwig]

I suspect we'll be going to the trade or free agency table to get a KPF and I don't really have a problem with that because I have my doubst about any of our ressies being genuine senior KPDs, Xav was one we were hoping for but he just doesn't seem to have kicked on. It would be nice if the academy had some KPDs in the pipeline.

Colin O'Riordan has the makings of a strapping half back flanker and Rampe is developing into a defender who can take the third tall so I think we're probably just one frontline KPD short.Looking for a KPF to replace Buddy? Maybe we could snag Liam Jones from Carlton in exchange for Tom Mitchell and our 1st round draft pick.:hmmmm2:

Seriously, I think it's a bit premature. Based on our team from the weekend, which seems to be doing well enough, I count 7 KPPs on our list that weren't in that game (Reid, Davis, Talia, XR, Aliir, Melican, AJ). The first 3 I would say are just about sure things, the rest we'll have to wait and see about. Although slightly undersized, Jordan Dawson is off to a promising start. Perhaps by season's end we will have a better idea about who is likely to succeed. I have little doubt that we will be adding a couple of KPPs one way or another in post season. We have the luxury of a young midfield that doesn't need new faces for quite a few years to come, so we can afford to put our attention on KPPs.

The way our forward line is set up we really don't need another KPF. When Reid and Rohan return they are more likely to play on the wing or in defence than provide a main target in the forward line. Their key function, and an important one, is an exit target from defence. And I think we will see plenty of forwards rotating though the midfield to confuse defenses.

There is also a transition happening around the league toward smaller agile defenders. When we had Leo and Craig as our key defenders it was a bit of a novelty, but now it's becoming more prevalent. Teams have been forced into small defenses due to injury, such as last year's Eagles and the WB, and have done very well. Big KPFs are not so damaging anymore, especially when using brute force to mark the ball. The good ones, like Tom Lynch, are big and mobile. It's not as big a factor as having mobile forwards leading into space. The I am trying to make is that key defenders are very important, height is not the factor it once was. You can be 188-190 cm and still be a dominating defender, like Josh Gibson, or even our own Dane Rampe seems to do fine against taller opponents.

[Maltopia]

Looking for a KPF to replace Buddy? Maybe we could snag Liam Jones from Carlton in exchange for Tom Mitchell and our 1st round draft pick.:hmmmm2:

Seriously, I think it's a bit premature.

Think it was a typo and he meant KPD.

[Nico]

Think it was a typo and he meant KPD.

I agree mate. Maybe Mug has had more stubbies than me tonight. Still top 30's in Chiang Mai at 9pm.

[Luke Shannon]

If Mitchell leaves, what about Jack Trengove from Melbourne. Former number 3 pick and captain who has fallen on hard times due to injury.

He is back and playing for the Casey Scorpians, but it seems that younger midfielders such as Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney are ahead of him.

He would only be worth a 4 / 5 round pick. I think he could be the next Laidler if given a chance.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Michael Voss played approx 3 seasons as a small med forward before heading into the pack

He was a lot leaner in those first 3 seasons and very much like Heeney in build at same age

First player for some time that has reminded me of Vossy

Hall of Fame Legend: Michael Voss - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spAOHnjrg8I)

[Auntie.Gerald]

geese id love Vossy down at the Swannies one day in the coaching group

[Auntie.Gerald]

watch at the 14min 30 seconds mark and you will see a young Vossy almost identical in the air and marking like Heeney

Lions Legend Michael Voss on Open Mike (07 Apr 2014) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVwtxBE9fHc)

[Ludwig]

geese id love Vossy down at the Swannies one day in the coaching groupComing Auntie!

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02622/geese_2622145b.jpg

[Meg]

Thanks Auntie for posting the Voss video - spectacular stuff. It did remind me though how the AFL rules change over time. There are at least two (brilliant) sliding incidents where Voss took out the legs of an opposition player. Would be a penalty free kick against him today.

(It's one of the things that makes me mad when people bag Goodes as a player who - they say - endangered others by sliding in. It was an accepted (probably coached) way to try to win a 50:50 ball for players of his generation).

[liz]

geese id love Vossy down at the Swannies one day in the coaching group

Why? He was inept as a senior coach at Brisbane, and has done nothing to improve Port since he joined their coaching staff. There may be a good coach inside him, waiting to emerge, but there's no tangible evidence yet that this is the case.

[Mug Punter]

Think it was a typo and he meant KPD.

Correct :) hic....

- - - Updated - - -


geese id love Vossy down at the Swannies one day in the coaching group

Errrmmmm, Nup:)

[Levii3]

Why? He was inept as a senior coach at Brisbane, and has done nothing to improve Port since he joined their coaching staff. There may be a good coach inside him, waiting to emerge, but there's no tangible evidence yet that this is the case.

+1

Iam a bit jealous that GWS got Lenny Hayes as a coach though would have been great to see him in R&W

[Maltopia]

I always thought we should have tried harder to keep Tim Membrey as we got very little out of the trade (pick 37 for pick 39?). He has kicked 4.0 so far halfway through the third quarter vs Melbourne today.

edit - now 5.0!

[RogueSwan]

I always thought we should have tried harder to keep Tim Membrey as we got very little out of the trade (pick 37 for pick 39?). He has kicked 4.0 so far halfway through the third quarter vs Melbourne today.

edit - now 5.0!
With the quality delivery he is getting any decent forward should have kicked a few today. I'm not saying he isn't any good but don't judge him just on this game. His first half wasn't real good. It was only after the Saints midfield, especially Acres, got on top that he got his goals.
I am much happier with what we have now.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Why? He was inept as a senior coach at Brisbane, and has done nothing to improve Port since he joined their coaching staff. There may be a good coach inside him, waiting to emerge, but there's no tangible evidence yet that this is the case.

agree

no evidence Liz

purely gut feeling for me on this one

probably like the day that Roos said to Kirk

"you've been rejected from the Snr team 4 year straight..........but i think now you are ready" and under Roos game style /plan ........Kirky was ready :)

PS methinks liz a little unfair to level judgement on Voss's career at Port...........Port are rotting like a 30 day old apple and more then just Voss is to blame is my hunch ??

Their players have no conviction this season

[barry]

Why? He was inept as a senior coach at Brisbane, and has done nothing to improve Port since he joined their coaching staff. There may be a good coach inside him, waiting to emerge, but there's no tangible evidence yet that this is the case.

Thats a little harsh on voss. The Lions are uncoachable and leppa has a worse record. The AFL have screwed that club.

[sharp9]

Didnt we get Ted with a first rounder?

Pick #19 = Courtney Dempsey (from memory) = we win :-)

[WauchopeAnalyst]

After watching a lot of footy this year and we can see the game evolving I think we can't play 4 slow mid players to win the flag or maybe this year but not next year.
(Some for Ted, Reg & Laids - only 2)

Kennedy, Mitchell, Hannebery and Parker.

Parker - Overall Parks gives is something inside/outside, forward and marking and our best mid.

Hannebery - Our, and the whole league, best outside runner and hardest/toughest ball receiver and gets killed/targeted every game by the Hawks.

Kennedy - our biggest hardest inside midfielder, joey can go forward take a mark and kick the goal, but that has almost disappeared and his decision making and skills are becoming very average and (a massive statement) he panics any no pressure and hack/bombs it forward without looking. If you tape games watch them again.

Mitchell - the extractor who wins his own ball and fired it out to other players at warp speed, sometimes too quick, does a lot a hacking/bombing forward and no penetration on his kick, can't mark above his head, but seems to find the big sticks when snapping and very dangerous around goal.

Parks and Dan are locked away. 1 more year for Joey and Titch is unsigned. Is it possible that a flag can make it easier and Titch can chase the cash and good luck to anyone who realises its 10-12years before your out, if you are really good, and much earlier if the game changes.

I look at Melbourne, yes Roos, with Petracca, Brayshaw and Oliver in 2 years. Petracca is a young Fyfe but Oliver and Brayshaw, with Viney and Jones, are inside grinders, and can't hurt you on the outside or forward and the Saints killed them on the outside and with mid sized defenders. No flags for either and 2 more years of development.

Jones and this is our Zac (appears to be a favourite whipping boy, not me), not Nathan, who can play in the mids, faster then all them and a strong kicking game, playing out of position. If given a run of straight games in the right position, I believe Zac will bloom into a raging bull around the ball and with Heeney, Mills and Hewett playing in the mids in the coming years.

If one goes, we maybe get an early pick, and I worry about Kinnear with his early pick record, but above 30 he is impeccable.

Just thinking aloud!???? I hope it reads ok and it is a bit long.

[Nico]

Another see ya later Mitch post. Very highly researched though.

[Triple B]

After watching a lot of footy this year and we can see the game evolving I think we can't play 4 slow mid players to win the flag or maybe this year but not next year.


Sybil80 is back??

[RogueSwan]

What don't get is how Hanners, Parker and Mitchell are classified as slow. The don't seem to plod around the ground to me. Sure they don't skip across the grass like Jets does but they aren't slow.

[Untamed Snark]

Sybil80 is back??

Well not as WA

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Hi all

Once again, I thought we were better then most, but posters like playing the man not the ball.

Ball movement, in times of speed and efficiency are created 2 different ways.

Ball speed and foot speed.

If the ball is moved quickly and continually it makes us play like a fast team, as per David King and champion data.

Foot speed shows that once on the spread our mids are exposed and our defence keeps us in the game. I can't see any of the 4 running down any player, except Hannebery with his running power late in the game.

I don't think that me previous post was a Titch bashing or that I hate Tom or that Joey is too old.

I though my post was about thinking about the speed of the game.

If Nico, Triple B, Rogue Swan and Untamed Swan believe that a ball winner is more important than foot speed, maybe you are right in finals, but maybe ALL premierships are won on the MCG, and that foot speed is becoming more and more important with the changes of rules on marks, frees, man on the mark, rotations etc

[caj23]

Hawks last 3 premiership teams didn't have anymore foot speed than our midfield, with Issac Smith and Brad Hill the exceptions. Those guys however are outside receivers who play on the wings.

Obviously it would be nice if a couple of our outside players (i.e. Cunningham, Lloyd, Rohan) could lift their game to match Smith/Hill as they aren't anywhere near that level

[WolfGang]

Some players seem to have "time" when they get the ball - these players are very important.

They may not be the fasted foot speed players in the side, but what they do with the ball - in releasing other players - I feel is more important.

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Very true wolf, Mitchell, Pendlebury have genius talent but ours was Mcveigh and I am still not convinced about his play since 2014 GF.

[dejavoodoo44]

Very true wolf, Mitchell, Pendlebury have genius talent but ours was Mcveigh and I am still not convinced about his play since 2014 GF.

On the little bit that I've seen of Mills, I'm pretty sure that he has that elite sporting mind that sees things just that millisecond quicker than mere mortals. I think that he is going to a very classy ball user in the not too distant future.

[Levii3]

Hawks last 3 premiership teams didn't have anymore foot speed than our midfield, with Issac Smith and Brad Hill the exceptions. Those guys however are outside receivers who play on the wings.

Hawks are a slow side which was shown on the weekend but they are a elite kicking team compared to us and other teams

[RogueSwan]

What is a slow side?
Is it one with a certain percentage of players considered to be not as fleet footed as the average?
Which team (or teams) is considered normal ie: not fast or slow?
Is it related to the age of the team? Are GSW, Gold Coast and the Dogs regarded as fast teams because of their average age? Hawthorn are slow because they are older?
BTW, older teams are the ones that win premierships (the Baby Bombers being one exception), which puts North in a strong position to win this year.
Has someone got a record of everyone's 20m, 100m and 400m times?

I think it is an illusion. The media perpetuates the fast/slow thing too. Just like the Swans are still a dour team that wants stoppages and contested ball all game when we are really a dynamic team with a lot of exciting footballers.
The Tigers, in the second half of last year, were a very exciting, fast team. This year they have pretty much the same make up but are now considered a slow team. It is all in the way they play, not the athleticism of the team.

I hope I haven't waffled too much, it is hard to write this properly when I supposed to be paying attention to the meeting I am sitting in.
1474

[WauchopeAnalyst]

I probably disagree about the illusion. Ball movement can make you like good and fast, like us, and all things are good. If you are blocked on your ball movement then to go forward you need foot speed to "break the lines" and break down the defence. If you little to no foot speed you are in big problems. The Giants showed 3 great things, for that game, not all, 1) win the ball and deny the Hawks the ball and then 2 and 3, use ball and foot speed to hurt them. Their systems started to break down on their set ups and spread because they were chasing most of the time.

Now in particular with Richmond. Now that their ball movement has been blocked, as all clubs do their homework, they are exposed as being very slow in foot speed in BOTH directions.

On the weekend, Zorko, Hanley and their crew killed us on the outside, with foot speed, and we were lucky that Buddy, Parker and George kicked 11 between them and our ball movement.

I would use the opposite with Adelaide. For several years we have owned Adelaide and we were making them look pedestrian but now after Walsh and now Pyke they have both ball and foot speed and that has made them very much a contender.

Beveridge had the same players at McCartney but Beveridge changed their mindset and systems and now they use both foot and ball speed in their game and without their injuries that could have been anything.

Richardson and the Saints are building a team on both foot and ball speed with a few new key position players in the coming years they will come into their own.

The AFL has changed the game, regarding keeping the ball in, man on the mark and surrounding areas, far more less ball up/ins and foot speed is becoming more important in the game.

[RogueSwan]

There Lions had an extra man just outside the pack so of course they could move out quicker if we allowed them.
Adelaide have lost one of the quickest midfielders Danger and are now seen as quick. They are playing differently under a new coach and their second tier forwards have progressed.
The Saints pull their forwards up the ground to leave space in front of the goals so they look quick because they have to run hard into that open space. Also, they bring a lot of pressure creating turnovers which can make a team look quick because they essentially have a fast break.
Every year, for as far back as I can remember "we need more speed" has been the call but the Swans continue to recruit footballers over athletes, with speed not appearing to be their first consideration even though it "is becoming more important in the game."
I am not convinced it is a vital ingredient for a team, more a handy asset.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Mug Punter]

I see from the OS that both Mills and Heeney are signed up on initial three year deals so that takes away any urgency re young Isaac.

Looking ahead at our list changes for this year, I'd say we have the following outs - Tom Dx, AJ, Xav and probably Ted. That would see us drafting three players and upgrading Papley. If we want to upgrade Nic too then we'd need to either increase the senior list or release an additional player. I see Harry Marsh is listed as a senior player, is that correct? If so, then it would be a shootout between him and Nic I suspect. Colin O'Riordan will also be pushing for an upgrade too I suspect but I suspect we may well keep him on the rookie list for an additional season and not rush his development as there's no need to rush that kid, he is only 21.

But then again I also think we'll be looking at bringing in an established KPD as well as using our first round draft pick to select the best available KPD. Unless we really believe Reid can handle that slot long term, which I don't btw. Which begs the question, how do we fit this in to our list management.

It's an early call but I'll make it now and it's that we'll be trading an established player at season end as part of a KPD deal that may also involve a draft pick upgrade for either club. It will probably be the only trade business we do as our list is so well balanced.

For mine there's probably only three players we'd consider letting go that have any currency and they are Rohan, Reid and Mitchell.

IMO it will only be Mitchell if he wants to leave and I don't think Gary would be worth much at the trade table. But Reid would be and I think we could get a very good KPD in and because he is on top coin (about $500K a year apparently) we'd have no salary cap issues. I like Reid but I don't think he is earning his current salary (even when not injured) and he could well benefit from a change in scenery too.

[Luke Shannon]

I see from the OS that both Mills and Heeney are signed up on initial three year deals so that takes away any urgency re young Isaac.

Looking ahead at our list changes for this year, I'd say we have the following outs - Tom Dx, AJ, Xav and probably Ted. That would see us drafting three players and upgrading Papley. If we want to upgrade Nic too then we'd need to either increase the senior list or release an additional player. I see Harry Marsh is listed as a senior player, is that correct? If so, then it would be a shootout between him and Nic I suspect. Colin O'Riordan will also be pushing for an upgrade too I suspect but I suspect we may well keep him on the rookie list for an additional season and not rush his development as there's no need to rush that kid, he is only 21.

But then again I also think we'll be looking at bringing in an established KPD as well as using our first round draft pick to select the best available KPD. Unless we really believe Reid can handle that slot long term, which I don't btw. Which begs the question, how do we fit this in to our list management.

It's an early call but I'll make it now and it's that we'll be trading an established player at season end as part of a KPD deal that may also involve a draft pick upgrade for either club. It will probably be the only trade business we do as our list is so well balanced.

For mine there's probably only three players we'd consider letting go that have any currency and they are Rohan, Reid and Mitchell.

IMO it will only be Mitchell if he wants to leave and I don't think Gary would be worth much at the trade table. But Reid would be and I think we could get a very good KPD in and because he is on top coin (about $500K a year apparently) we'd have no salary cap issues. I like Reid but I don't think he is earning his current salary (even when not injured) and he could well benefit from a change in scenery too.

I thought that clubs could take a minimum two players in the draft if you have a rookie upgrade. It's three in the draft if you don't upgrade a rookie? Is that correct?

[mcs]

I see from the OS that both Mills and Heeney are signed up on initial three year deals so that takes away any urgency re young Isaac.

Looking ahead at our list changes for this year, I'd say we have the following outs - Tom Dx, AJ, Xav and probably Ted. That would see us drafting three players and upgrading Papley. If we want to upgrade Nic too then we'd need to either increase the senior list or release an additional player. I see Harry Marsh is listed as a senior player, is that correct? If so, then it would be a shootout between him and Nic I suspect. Colin O'Riordan will also be pushing for an upgrade too I suspect but I suspect we may well keep him on the rookie list for an additional season and not rush his development as there's no need to rush that kid, he is only 21.

But then again I also think we'll be looking at bringing in an established KPD as well as using our first round draft pick to select the best available KPD. Unless we really believe Reid can handle that slot long term, which I don't btw. Which begs the question, how do we fit this in to our list management.

It's an early call but I'll make it now and it's that we'll be trading an established player at season end as part of a KPD deal that may also involve a draft pick upgrade for either club. It will probably be the only trade business we do as our list is so well balanced.

For mine there's probably only three players we'd consider letting go that have any currency and they are Rohan, Reid and Mitchell.

IMO it will only be Mitchell if he wants to leave and I don't think Gary would be worth much at the trade table. But Reid would be and I think we could get a very good KPD in and because he is on top coin (about $500K a year apparently) we'd have no salary cap issues. I like Reid but I don't think he is earning his current salary (even when not injured) and he could well benefit from a change in scenery too.

Marsh is on the rookie list - we delisted him last year but picked him back up as a rookie.

[chalbilto]

It has been reported on the AFL website that in 2017 Reid and Rohan become free agents. I hope that the club resigns them to new contracts by the beginning of next season as I feel that they will be integral to the playing list.

[Levii3]

It has been reported on the AFL website that in 2017 Reid and Rohan become free agents. I hope that the club resigns them to new contracts by the beginning of next season as I feel that they will be integral to the playing list.

I love Gary but he's played 61 games in 6? years better of drafting a 18 year old with speed if Gary wants to leave if he wants to stay then sign him if he doesn't ask too much salary wise

[chalbilto]

Hey Levii3,

Don't forget he was out of the game for virtually 2 seasons due to that horrendous broken leg so he deserves some slack.

[Mug Punter]

I love Gary but he's played 61 games in 6? years better of drafting a 18 year old with speed if Gary wants to leave if he wants to stay then sign him if he doesn't ask too much salary wise

I think we'll give Gary every chance to prove he deserves a new deal but right now he's a 50/50 bet in my book.

Reid I think is more interesting. IMO he has not earned his $500,000 a year over the last four years. He's teased us with glimpses of what he is capable of but we're still waiting for him to play a full four quarters and tear a game apart. It's a harsh assessment but I think a true one. I rate him but he frustrates the hell out of me.

If we want to make a play for Hurley then we'll need that $500,000 and Reid plus Ted retiring would give us ample coin to get him in our cap. It's a big call but I'd much prefer Hurley at CHB than Reid's little cameos. We won't get a huge trade deal as the main purpose would be getting him off the salary bill but I'm sure a club like a Brisbane would quite happy pay him silly money for a couple of second round picks which we could then bank into our academy kids

[Levii3]

Hey Levii3,

Don't forget he was out of the game for virtually 2 seasons due to that horrendous broken leg so he deserves some slack.


I think we've given plenty of slack to rohan in the last two year he's played one good game against North that was two years ago last year he was ordinary some players never get a good run at it because of injuries like Rohan and the Reid brothers at some point you need to pull the plug

[Mug Punter]

I think we've given plenty of slack to rohan in the last two year he's played one good game against North that was two years ago last year he was ordinary some players never get a good run at it because of injuries like Rohan and the Reid brothers at some point you need to pull the plug

I'm glad he's got next season too but he's definitely playing for his career, with us anyway. You'd think if we don't keep him another club will throw him a lifeline

[liz]

Emerging Swans defender signs contract extension - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-05-11/emerging-swans-defender-signs-contract-extension)

Mr All Australian earns himself another two years on the list.

[Mug Punter]

Emerging Swans defender signs contract extension - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-05-11/emerging-swans-defender-signs-contract-extension)

Mr All Australian earns himself another two years on the list.

That's a great result for us and for him, he's a late developer for obvious reasons but I liked what I saw the other week and I think he can be part of our next generation. I like we've given him the confidence and security of a two year extension

[707]

That can put to bed the thoughts that AA could be a delist victim. That the club has seen fit to extend him means that he is doing a lot right, should have a bright future.

Same goes for BJ who was given an extra two years, they have faith he will make the grade, just taking time to get there.

Future's so bright, gotta wear shades!

[Luke Shannon]

That's a great result for us and for him, he's a late developer for obvious reasons but I liked what I saw the other week and I think he can be part of our next generation. I like we've given him the confidence and security of a two year extension

At the start of the thread I predicted that the Swans would only keep one of Alire or X. Richards. They seem to have made their choice.

With Talia and Reid likely to be available for the 2nd half of the year (Talia is now listed at 2-3 weeks), I don't see X. Richards having an opportunity to turn his fortunes around.

[Mug Punter]

At the start of the thread I predicted that the Swans would only keep one of Alire or X. Richards. They seem to have made their choice.

With Talia and Reid likely to be available for the 2nd half of the year (Talia is now listed at 2-3 weeks), I don't see X. Richards having an opportunity to turn his fortunes around.

Shame really but that's life.

I can really see us using our first rounder at this year's draft for a KPD but they can take a bit longer to develop so it will be interesting to see how we approach the defender situation at season end.

Does Ted have another year in him? I think it would be a brave call as a KPD but if he's prepared to take a salary haircut and play as the third defender then maybe. Can Reid step up? Don't know as we never seem to play him in the same slot two weeks in a row. Rampe has been doing a decent job on the third tall but I just think he lacks the stature as a KPD.

Talia's development will be interesting, I see him as a decent third tall defender so I really don't think he solves anything except giving us better depth.

[Nico]

I love Gary but he's played 61 games in 6? years better of drafting a 18 year old with speed if Gary wants to leave if he wants to stay then sign him if he doesn't ask too much salary wise

Kinnear says there is a lack of leg speed in the 2016 draft pool.

I suspect how they perform from now on will dictate their value to the club. Both are injury prone.

- - - Updated - - -


I think we'll give Gary every chance to prove he deserves a new deal but right now he's a 50/50 bet in my book.

Reid I think is more interesting. IMO he has not earned his $500,000 a year over the last four years. He's teased us with glimpses of what he is capable of but we're still waiting for him to play a full four quarters and tear a game apart. It's a harsh assessment but I think a true one. I rate him but he frustrates the hell out of me.

If we want to make a play for Hurley then we'll need that $500,000 and Reid plus Ted retiring would give us ample coin to get him in our cap. It's a big call but I'd much prefer Hurley at CHB than Reid's little cameos. We won't get a huge trade deal as the main purpose would be getting him off the salary bill but I'm sure a club like a Brisbane would quite happy pay him silly money for a couple of second round picks which we could then bank into our academy kids

Another of the old; "Ted retiring posts".

- - - Updated - - -


That's a great result for us and for him, he's a late developer for obvious reasons but I liked what I saw the other week and I think he can be part of our next generation. I like we've given him the confidence and security of a two year extension

What are the obvious reasons?

- - - Updated - - -


At the start of the thread I predicted that the Swans would only keep one of Alire or X. Richards. They seem to have made their choice.

With Talia and Reid likely to be available for the 2nd half of the year (Talia is now listed at 2-3 weeks), I don't see X. Richards having an opportunity to turn his fortunes around.

The Richards boys are not getting much good news lately.

[Maltopia]

What are the obvious reasons?




re Aliir, he was a basketballer until he was about 16 or so.

[CureTheSane]

re: Rohan - I can see what others are saying. I still think he adds to the team, but if he's not careful he'll be left behind
re: Reid - when White left, at the time I would have preferred to keep him and let Reid go. That likely would have been a mistake, but Reid has never really got to where he should be. The Swans have held him back by playing him down back IMO. Will be interesting to see if he gets a game this year...

[Nico]

re Aliir, he was a basketballer until he was about 16 or so.

So was Jessie White.

[Maltopia]

So was Jessie White.

I am just pointing out the obvious reason that Mug Punter was alluding to re why Aliir's development is behind others who were drafted four years ago. He is coming from a long way back so it is unrealistic to expect him to be in our best 30 right now.

[Mug Punter]

Another of the old; "Ted retiring posts".

\What are the obvious reasons?


I hope I am proved Ted wrong as I'd love to see him go around again but as one of my favourite players I'd hate to see him go a season too long.

The obvious reason for Aliir is that he started playing the game a lot later than all of his fellow draftees, mid teens I think...

- - - Updated - - -


So was Jessie White.

Point made.....

- - - Updated - - -


I am just pointing out the obvious reason that Mug Punter was alluding to re why Aliir's development is behind others who were drafted four years ago. He is coming from a long way back so it is unrealistic to expect him to be in our best 30 right now.

He is but he is a rudely gifted athlete and once he finally works out this game he could be a superstar. I'd love it if we had him on one flank and O'Riordan on the other just carving it up

[Cosmic Wizard]

At the start of the thread I predicted that the Swans would only keep one of Alire or X. Richards. They seem to have made their choice.

With Talia and Reid likely to be available for the 2nd half of the year (Talia is now listed at 2-3 weeks), I don't see X. Richards having an opportunity to turn his fortunes around.

At the start of the season i and many other said Robbo would be gone as well.

But giving him game after game improved his confidence and skill level.

We should at least try XR if we can.

But also we have has Talia and Richards injured for long periods: if XR is on a low salary, might as well keep here for cover.

[707]

So as the season progresses we are getting a better idea of who may be moving on at years end and it has to be those out of contract.

Derickx is definitely gone. Only likely retirement is Ted depending on how he goes this year could play another as third tall, he does read the play well. X is a likely casualty you would think. AJ is in the lap of the gods. McGlynn still seems to be in favour.

Rookie list - Papley definite upgrade, and if he keeps improving O'Riordan. Marsh must have run out of time. The others will decide their own fate through the rest of the season.

Interesting times at years end because I can't see us having too many spots vacant, particularly if we trade someone in. Could be we have a quiet time at the ND, maybe we can swap later picks to GWS, Bris or GC for an early pick upgrade this year, particularly GWS who have a heap of high academy players to snare.

[Mug Punter]

So as the season progresses we are getting a better idea of who may be moving on at years end and it has to be those out of contract.

Derickx is definitely gone. Only likely retirement is Ted depending on how he goes this year could play another as third tall, he does read the play well. X is a likely casualty you would think. AJ is in the lap of the gods. McGlynn still seems to be in favour.

Rookie list - Papley definite upgrade, and if he keeps improving O'Riordan. Marsh must have run out of time. The others will decide their own fate through the rest of the season.

Interesting times at years end because I can't see us having too many spots vacant, particularly if we trade someone in. Could be we have a quiet time at the ND, maybe we can swap later picks to GWS, Bris or GC for an early pick upgrade this year, particularly GWS who have a heap of high academy players to snare.

I'd see X, Ted, Jack Hiscox, T Dx and AJ as being the five delists. Towers is also a popular de-listing at the moment after his effort last night but I think he'll stay.

That would cover Papley and O'Riordan who both should be upgraded and three draftees, or maybe Newman as well will be upgraded though I personally don't see what all the fuss is about with him. Maybe we'll trade out or first round pick for an established KPD and only take rounds 2 and 3 this year.

Or maybe we'll trade out a player for a gun KPD. Mitchell and Reid are the two players that jump out at you when you start talking Hurley to Swans for instance.

Whether I'm spouting rubbish or not I think we'll be very active this year end

[The Big Cat]

Or maybe we'll trade out a player for a gun KPD. Mitchell and Reid are the two players that jump out at you when you start talking Hurley to Swans for instance.

Whether I'm spouting rubbish or not I think we'll be very active this year end

Reid has more upside than Hurley

[0918330512]

At the start of the thread I predicted that the Swans would only keep one of Alire or X. Richards. They seem to have made their choice.

His name is Aliir - it's pretty much always spelled out twice whenever you see it.

[Luke Shannon]

Latest prediction:

Retired:

- Ted Richards

- Ben Mcglynn - probably could do 2017, but there are younger players who can play his role at better monetary value.

- Alex Johnson - out of time and too many rookie upgrades to make.

Delisting

Tom D

X. Richards

Potential trade outs

- Towers - probably needs a new start and we could use the 4th round points.

- Mitchell - has not signed and midfield time is diminishing. Pick 10-20 of value. Probably a future pick if there is some academy talent to come at the end of 2017.

That is 7 outs:

Ins

Rookie Upgrades:

- Papley
- Marsh
- Melican

I think Newman will get the one 3rd year rookie spot.

- O'riden can be a 2nd year rookie and be upgraded if need be.

- Jordan Foote will probably be delisted.

That leaves 4 spots

Trade

- Trengrove from Melbourne. Offer midfield depth and be good value in trade. Regaining fitness and form in VFL. Ex captain of Melbourne.

Delisted free agent

Jesse White

- At 29 years of age he could provide some useful cover if Buddy or Tippett go down and can now fill in down back. Would have to be a low salary.

National Draft:

I believe it only has to be two selections if you have upgraded rookies.

One KPD and one utility.

[mcs]

Delisted free agent

Jesse White

- At 29 years of age he could provide some useful cover if Buddy or Tippett go down and can now fill in down back. Would have to be a low salary.


:rofl Keep on those happy drugs Ma.... Luke!

[Dosser]

Reading on the AFL site that GWS's Caleb Marchbank is out of contract at the end of this season. Apparently Saints and Blues are interested in him as a KPD but the report says he is happy in Sydney. Also, GWS needs to offload about $600k of salary cap. Interesting...

[Industrial Fan]

LOL Jesse White

[Ludwig]

Reading on the AFL site that GWS's Caleb Marchbank is out of contract at the end of this season. Apparently Saints and Blues are interested in him as a KPD but the report says he is happy in Sydney. Also, GWS needs to offload about $600k of salary cap. Interesting...The Giants love Marchbank; I doubt they will let him go. Tomlinson is probably off to Victoria. They still have 4 very good young key defenders in Davis, Marchbank, Corr and Haynes. And Parfull is not finished yet. This year they will be adding a likely top 5 pick in Harrison McCreadie. So the glass is very full indeed. I think the Giants will try to keep the lot. The one they may let go is Jeremy Finlayson, who went low in the draft, but looks a good prospect and should be cheap. I wouldn't mind Tim Mohr, except he's had a few too many injuries and closer the end of his career, but if they can't trade him he could be delisted. They will probably keep him if they lose Marchbank.

Another one I'd be looking at is Jack Leslie from the Suns. He was a pick 20 in the 2013 draft. He played very well against us in the reserves. He seems to be 5th in line for key defenders behind Thompson, May, Day, and Henry Schade. They also have Kolodjashnij and Clay Cameron, who can play as a 3rd tall. I think Leslie is out of contract as well. I'd give them our 2nd rounder and throw in Dean Towers.

As for the salary cap, I don't think we are in a position to outbid clubs making crazy offers to players on the move. There are some decent pickings further down the pecking order on the expansion club rosters.

[Mug Punter]

The Giants love Marchbank; I doubt they will let him go. Tomlinson is probably off to Victoria. They still have 4 very good young key defenders in Davis, Marchbank, Corr and Haynes. And Parfull is not finished yet. This year they will be adding a likely top 5 pick in Harrison McCreadie. So the glass is very full indeed. I think the Giants will try to keep the lot. The one they may let go is Jeremy Finlayson, who went low in the draft, but looks a good prospect and should be cheap. I wouldn't mind Tim Mohr, except he's had a few too many injuries and closer the end of his career, but if they can't trade him he could be delisted. They will probably keep him if they lose Marchbank.

Another one I'd be looking at is Jack Leslie from the Suns. He was a pick 20 in the 2013 draft. He played very well against us in the reserves. He seems to be 5th in line for key defenders behind Thompson, May, Day, and Henry Schade. They also have Kolodjashnij and Clay Cameron, who can play as a 3rd tall. I think Leslie is out of contract as well. I'd give them our 2nd rounder and throw in Dean Towers.

As for the salary cap, I don't think we are in a position to outbid clubs making crazy offers to players on the move. There are some decent pickings further down the pecking order on the expansion club rosters.

One of the many advantages we rightly get with the Academy is the ability to choose.

By that I mean if we have 5 or 6 draftable players a year (as I hope we will) we will probably only be able to afford 2 or maybe 3 depending on where they go. And I suspect we may deliberately let a few go over the years just to share the talent and let other clubs benefit (but not the ones we REALLY want). So, right now if we had four AFL standard mids and two KPDs then you know who we'd be selecting. It really will help with the list management.

Also, am I imagining things or did someone just suggest we draft Jesse White? Incredible:)

[longmile]

LOL Jesse White

lol

[Pmcc2911]

Apart from one or two rookie spots there won't be any Swans Acadamey kids drafted this year.
There are some solid players but no real guns

[707]

Hurley can move clubs as a DFA due to the drug ban so if he did want to come to the Swans (and let's face it, what better club to move to?) we don't have to trade for him. If he does leave the Bombers, most likely new home would be Hawthorn unless they start to slide down the table at years end.

Of course Wretchmond will have a try for him, they try for everyone and only land dross! Still spewing about last weeks result :-(

[Luke Shannon]

lol

There is no key position forward depth on the list. If Tippett and Buddy go down there are no key forwards. Reid is physically unreliable and Nankervis does not have the mobility to be a key forward.

Jesse would offer some insurance for the list. He is physically resilient a mobile athlete and could give an immediate contest. He is playing ahead of Travis Cloke at the moment and can have some good patches.

For those in IT think of Jesse as disaster recovery. He would not be selected if Buddy and Tippett were fit.

The Hawks use Sphanger on their list for this purpose.

[Mountain Man]

The Hawks use Sphanger on their list for this purpose.

Except they don't

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Delisted free agent

Jesse White

- At 29 years of age he could provide some useful cover if Buddy or Tippett go down and can now fill in down back. Would have to be a low salary.

Are their any clauses in his contract?

[Cosmic Wizard]

The Giants love Marchbank; I doubt they will let him go. Tomlinson is probably off to Victoria. They still have 4 very good young key defenders in Davis, Marchbank, Corr and Haynes. And Parfull is not finished yet. This year they will be adding a likely top 5 pick in Harrison McCreadie. So the glass is very full indeed. I think the Giants will try to keep the lot. The one they may let go is Jeremy Finlayson, who went low in the draft, but looks a good prospect and should be cheap. I wouldn't mind Tim Mohr, except he's had a few too many injuries and closer the end of his career, but if they can't trade him he could be delisted. They will probably keep him if they lose Marchbank.

Another one I'd be looking at is Jack Leslie from the Suns. He was a pick 20 in the 2013 draft. He played very well against us in the reserves. He seems to be 5th in line for key defenders behind Thompson, May, Day, and Henry Schade. They also have Kolodjashnij and Clay Cameron, who can play as a 3rd tall. I think Leslie is out of contract as well. I'd give them our 2nd rounder and throw in Dean Towers.

As for the salary cap, I don't think we are in a position to outbid clubs making crazy offers to players on the move. There are some decent pickings further down the pecking order on the expansion club rosters.

They love him but will let him go; they don't want to be in another Macarthur, is that his name?, who is now playing/training in WA.

Beside, correct me if i am wrong, he is out of contract end of season so no need to offer up draft spots for him.

He is what we need: has been in the AFL system for two years; has showed he can play, and is undoubtedly top quality talent.

With Talia and him, we have a brilliant backline for the next ten years, supplemented with a few another like AA.

Do what ever it take to get him in!

[Ludwig]

They love him but will let him go; they don't want to be in another Macarthur, is that his name?, who is now playing/training in WA.

Beside, correct me if i am wrong, he is out of contract end of season so no need to offer up draft spots for him.

He is what we need: has been in the AFL system for two years; has showed he can play, and is undoubtedly top quality talent.

With Talia and him, we have a brilliant backline for the next ten years, supplemented with a few another like AA.

Do what ever it take to get him in! I would love Marchbank at the Swans, but what would be the reason for him to want to come to the Swans? It's not like McCarthy and a go home factor; he'll still be in Sydney. If he's fit, the Giants will most likely play him in the seniors, so he's going to see finals action. And I don't know what we've got in players or draft picks that the Giants might want in a trade. I just can't see how we get him.

[barry]

Giants have handled macarthy perfectly. If you want to f us around you can sit out a year.
Make others think twice before pulling the homesick card.

[liz]

If Marchbank wants to leave, chances are he'll have lots of big money offers from the lesser Melbourne teams who need to fill their salary caps somehow. I don't think the Swans have a problem filling the salary cap, with the midfield we have on top of the two expensive big men. And Heeney is going to start commanding a very healthy salary sooner rather than later (and probably Mills too). We've always got by with a relatively low key, blue collar defence. Makes far more sense than packing it full of highly paid players if you can get a durable group that works well together. Someone like Finlayson sounds like a much more attractive fit for our club if he chooses to seek out greater opportunities for senior footy.

[Luke Shannon]

:rofl Keep on those happy drugs Ma.... Luke!

Yes.

The AFL.com.au home page headline to the Collingwood win over Geelong win was "The White Stuff".

I'm sure it's a play on words to the track that Joe Moore and Mel love:

"The Right Stuff" from NKOTB

The report goes on to say that Jesse was instrumental in a 7 goal 1st term from the pies.

It's about time that the Swans faithful showed Jesse some respect. He is a depth player, but he has impact. He and Cox are dominating the Collingwood forward line.

If he was to become available as a delisted free agent the Swans would be crazy not to sign him as KPF depth.

[Ludwig]

Jesse White is more valuable to the Swans playing for Collingwood and helping them beat a genuine contender for the premiership. If Jesse is any good then Collingwood won't delist him.

[Dosser]

My guess is that Jesse must be in his contract year. He did this every time with us.

[Mel_C]

I was at the game yesterday and Jesse played really well. But he is not allowed back at the swans while he has that man bun!!

[longmile]

How many players have played for a club and then played at another club only to return to their original club?
Might be interesting trivia

[liz]

How many players have played for a club and then played at another club only to return to their original club?
Might be interesting trivia

Mark Orchard? Troy Gray?

[Luke Shannon]

How many players have played for a club and then played at another club only to return to their original club?
Might be interesting trivia

Trent Croad and Chris Tarrant

[dejavoodoo44]

How many players have played for a club and then played at another club only to return to their original club?
Might be interesting trivia
Warwick Capper springs to mind. And speaking of trivia, I did have to make the host of my local trivia night consult Dr Google, after the question, "At what club did Warwick Capper finish his career?" My team had the correct answer, but the host and many other people in the room reckoned it was the Brisbane Bears.

[Levii3]

Abe Davis 's brother Ben's playing well after returning from injury little annoyed we don't get first shot at him in the draft he's 187cm seems good around goal kicked four on the weekend against Tasmania seems ideal replacement for when Heeney moves into the midfield

[Cosmic Wizard]

I would love Marchbank at the Swans, but what would be the reason for him to want to come to the Swans? It's not like McCarthy and a go home factor; he'll still be in Sydney. If he's fit, the Giants will most likely play him in the seniors, so he's going to see finals action. And I don't know what we've got in players or draft picks that the Giants might want in a trade. I just can't see how we get him.

No club will offer a second year player truely silly money.

All players want to win a GF, and how many club are truely in the window, not certain those Melbourne clubs who had one win on the weekend.

We do have the money, and we are more than capable of winning a flag, so why not us.

GWS do have salary restraints; far too many good players, and a backman might just slip through to us! Just like Buddy

[Mug Punter]

No club will offer a second year player truely silly money.

All players want to win a GF, and how many club are truely in the window, not certain those Melbourne clubs who had one win on the weekend.

We do have the money, and we are more than capable of winning a flag, so why not us.

GWS do have salary restraints; far too many good players, and a backman might just slip through to us! Just like Buddy

Marchbank sounds like he would be a good recruit and GWS may well take our first rounder for him for the points. But we'd then be left to find someone to trade Towers too. Having said that I firmly believe we'll be looking for a more established KPD but I'd take a punt on this kid. He'd probably be cheaper and GWS could well be willing sellers. He'd be staying in the best city in Australia with the best club in terms of player and personal development. Seriously, how glad must parents be when they hear theor kids are coming up here when they read about WCE and the culture at Melbourne clubs like Collingwood.

The whole list issue must be providing KB with a headache albeit a good one as so many of our fringies have come good this year (e.g. Marsh and AA). Crikey even Xav is scoring for fun up front, surely he isn't making a late pitch for his spot on the list.

The more I see it we will trade a player (Towers I reckon) either for a future pick or as a bundle for our first rounder and we'll get a KPD in.

We're then looking at TDx and Ted and Xav out, assuming we can't release Hiscox due to the academy kids getting three year deals.

We'll upgrade Papley as our long term replacement for Benny and Marsh. Colin will be kept on as a rookie but could well be upgraded for AJ from round 1. that leaves us two draft picks even though nobody has been able to explain to me, after listing the AFL rules, why we cannot draft only one and upgrade two. Sigh....

So, to make this happen we may need to increase our senior list from 38 to 39 which is of course allowable given we can accommodate the cap and from the explosion in cap space next year we should be able to do that.

If our long term strategy is a list of 38 then we should be able to return to that in 2018 as at the end of next year we'll have Jarrad and Benny retiring and a raft of players at risk of de-listing (two or three of BJ, Hiscox, Tyrone and Dawson). We'd upgrade O'Riordan and then take three at least from the draft as our first batch of Day 1 academy recruits (kids who have been through a complete Academy lifecycle) start to come online.

[Ludwig]

GWS has made it clear that they really want to keep Marchbank. He was a #6 draft pick, which shows how highly they rate him. And when he was fit, they played him in the seniors.

I have no idea what Marchbank is thinking or where he wants to play. There's always going to be speculation surrounding a promising young player on a list overflowing with talent.

I think we'd trade our first rounder with barely a second thought to get Marchbank, but I doubt that will happen. He's only 2nd year player, but has shown plenty already and I doubt that a player of his quality will be available when our first pick comes up.

[Mug Punter]

GWS has made it clear that they really want to keep Marchbank. He was a #6 draft pick, which shows how highly they rate him. And when he was fit, they played him in the seniors.

I have no idea what Marchbank is thinking or where he wants to play. There's always going to be speculation surrounding a promising young player on a list overflowing with talent.

I think we'd trade our first rounder with barely a second thought to get Marchbank, but I doubt that will happen. He's only 2nd year player, but has shown plenty already and I doubt that a player of his quality will be available when our first pick comes up.

Yep, it would be a highly ambitious trade but GWS may not have a lot of say in this one if the reports of them being $600,000 over their 2017 salary cap, as it currently stands, is true.

He can be a required player all they like but if his new deal is an additional $250,000 + on his rookie contract then they suddenly have to find $800,000+ in other savings to keep him. And who is going to leave that place when they are getting 20-30% over their market value? Could they have a major salary cap crisis? Given the way they have chronically mismanaged every other aspect of their life so far I see no reason why not.

And when you consider that for 2017 those Muppets have an additional $640,000 salary cap under their concessions then perhaps the doomsday scenarios re their list touted by people like, errrrm me, may be a bit OTT. Clearly they are paying exhorbitant overs to their players to keep them at that sheltered workshop and it shows. Have a look at that big sook Jeremy Cameron when things don't go right, that's what happens when you pay a bloke a million a year when he has done nothing in the game.

Of course GWS will be banking on an increased cap but I wouldn't be so sure of that for 2017. I can see a much more incremental approach to the capo increases and certainly not a Big Bang increase in 2017.

So, if they can't afford to keep him, and that's the only way he'll be allowed to leave then they may well decide that going to us is the best deal given the rubbish they are copping from the Melbourne mafia.

A long shot I agree but I see some serious issues at GWS if they happen to crumble and miss the finals this year.

[chalbilto]

Yep, it would be a highly ambitious trade but GWS may not have a lot of say in this one if the reports of them being $600,000 over their 2017 salary cap, as it currently stands, is true.

He can be a required player all they like but if his new deal is an additional $250,000 + on his rookie contract then they suddenly have to find $800,000+ in other savings to keep him. And who is going to leave that place when they are getting 20-30% over their market value? Could they have a major salary cap crisis? Given the way they have chronically mismanaged every other aspect of their life so far I see no reason why not.

And when you consider that for 2017 those Muppets have an additional $640,000 salary cap under their concessions then perhaps the doomsday scenarios re their list touted by people like, errrrm me, may be a bit OTT. Clearly they are paying exhorbitant overs to their players to keep them at that sheltered workshop and it shows. Have a look at that big sook Jeremy Cameron when things don't go right, that's what happens when you pay a bloke a million a year when he has done nothing in the game.

Of course GWS will be banking on an increased cap but I wouldn't be so sure of that for 2017. I can see a much more incremental approach to the capo increases and certainly not a Big Bang increase in 2017.

So, if they can't afford to keep him, and that's the only way he'll be allowed to leave then they may well decide that going to us is the best deal given the rubbish they are copping from the Melbourne mafia.

A long shot I agree but I see some serious issues at GWS if they happen to crumble and miss the finals this year.

Will not happen. I think that the Swans will beat them today but they have a very good draw to finish the season where they play against 8 sides below them in the ladder and only 2 in the top eight viz;Bombers, Blues, Pies, Lions, Port, Tigers, Suns, West Coast, Freo & Kangas.,
Not being privy to the machinations of salary caps etc I would assume that all clubs and player managers would be expecting a substantial increase in the salary cap which I believe the Swans factored in with their contact with Buddy.

[aardvark]

A couple of speedy outside mids wouldn't go astray......

[azzzr]

A couple of speedy outside mids wouldn't go astray......

GWS is the only team which makes me feel like we need one, everyone else we cover it up somehow?

[Mug Punter]

Will not happen. I think that the Swans will beat them today but they have a very good draw to finish the season where they play against 8 sides below them in the ladder and only 2 in the top eight viz;Bombers, Blues, Pies, Lions, Port, Tigers, Suns, West Coast, Freo & Kangas.,
Not being privy to the machinations of salary caps etc I would assume that all clubs and player managers would be expecting a substantial increase in the salary cap which I believe the Swans factored in with their contact with Buddy.

That run in scary. They are every chance of getting top two, and if they get on a roll they can win it.

And then the fun will begin......

[barry]

Oh how i would love GWS to host swans in a final at ANZ.

This board would go into meltdown. Mugs head would explode.

Lols

[Ludwig]

A couple of speedy outside mids wouldn't go astray...... We probably felt we had them our list, but they haven't really come good so far. Towers, Cunningham and BJ would offer plenty of outside pace, but they're not damaging players, in fact, hardly AFL level players.

Colin O'Riordan has a bit of pace, although not like the ones mentioned above, and Nic Newman could offer some Malceski sort of pace if he came into the seniors. They both look promising players.

[mcs]

Oh how i would love GWS to host swans in a final at ANZ.

This board would go into meltdown. Mugs head would explode.

Lols

More likely we would just laugh at your pathetic efforts to try and be an internet troll. I think most here wouldn't give two hoots, although I guess you'd be excited to actually go to an AFL game live this season.... :rofl

[Nico]

We probably felt we had them our list, but they haven't really come good so far. Towers, Cunningham and BJ would offer plenty of outside pace, but they're not damaging players, in fact, hardly AFL level players.

Colin O'Riordan has a bit of pace, although not like the ones mentioned above, and Nic Newman could offer some Malceski sort of pace if he came into the seniors. They both look promising players.

Mills into the midfield anyone? Obvious move to me.

[mcs]

That run in scary. They are every chance of getting top two, and if they get on a roll they can win it.

And then the fun will begin......

Yep with that draw they aren't going to be dropping many games (Without significant injuries of course), and every chance to be top 2. Teams aren't going to fancy that trip to Spotless in the finals (I'd expect the only final that would be moved from there would be if they play us) and they'd be every chance to make the grand final from there. I have nothing against the football they play or the team they are, but how they have got there is going to leave a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, especially when one takes into account the impact of their introduction on the integrity of the competition (in terms of the impacts of their concessions). But that is all hypothetical till the time that GWS really does make the impact on the league that may happen as early as this year.

[barry]

More likely we would just laugh at your pathetic efforts to try and be an internet troll. I think most here wouldn't give two hoots, although I guess you'd be excited to actually go to an AFL game live this season.... :rofl
I forgot about you. Where you been?

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[chalbilto]

Oh how i would love GWS to host swans in a final at ANZ.

This board would go into meltdown. Mugs head would explode.

Lols

Barry, Barry, Barry the Swans supporters don't want their team viz; Sydney Swans, to be forced to play "their" home fixtures at ANZ but if they have to play there as an away team then obviously they will play there.
Seriously Barry, I try to ignore your trolling posts for they really don't deserve the courtesy of a reply. Sometimes you make some quite sensible posts but when you get on your hobby horses you are really purile and tiresome. I have no animosity towards you but give the trolling up and I am sure that you will earn respect.

[barry]

Barry, Barry, Barry the Swans supporters don't want their team viz; Sydney Swans, to be forced to play "their" home fixtures at ANZ but if they have to play there as an away team then obviously they will play there.
Seriously Barry, I try to ignore your trolling posts for they really don't deserve the courtesy of a reply. Sometimes you make some quite sensible posts but when you get on your hobby horses you are really purile and tiresome. I have no animosity towards you but give the trolling up and I am sure that you will earn respect.
Its like some on here have an ANZ word filter that seems them into a mild panic.

FWIW, I very much doubt ANZ will be used, but the irony is delicious as bruce would say.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[Ludwig]

Mills into the midfield anyone? Obvious move to me.Definitely. We need to get Newman to take his spot down back so Mills can move into the midfield. It seems a logical move since we need a Malceski type (which Newman seems to be) in our defensive 6. It would also be nice to free up Rampe a bit, but he's tied down doing serious 1 on 1 defending. Mills is a natural midfielder. Let's do it now.

[Industrial Fan]

Its like some on here have an ANZ word filter that seems them into a mild panic.

FWIW, I very much doubt ANZ will be used, but the irony is delicious as bruce would say.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalkabout as much irony as the alanis morrisette song Barry. Chalabito is spot on. Just don't want our home final played out there to our disadvantage. Gws can play theirs wherever they want.

Gws win has put some wind in your sails obviously.

[707]

Oops, I thought this was the trade/draft thread but I must be wrong as it appears to be the positional moves on field and venue for finals thread, silly me ........

Be nice if we could keep general chat on other appropriate threads and keep this thread for the more important non trade/draft hypotheticals, thanks

[707]

GWS shouldn't have cap problems next year as Cam McCarthy appears gone and they will almost certainly trade out in demand Tomlinson who will want to move for real senior opportunities.

Could be a few more traded out and replaced with inexpensive draftees, all from the Riverina of course!

Marchbank is very much a required player at GWS, highly unlikely he'll be going anywhere but we could well be in the market for a good established KPD.

[CureTheSane]

Oops, I thought this was the trade/draft thread but I must be wrong as it appears to be the positional moves on field and venue for finals thread, silly me ........

Be nice if we could keep general chat on other appropriate threads and keep this thread for the more important non trade/draft hypotheticals, thanks

You're perfectly suited to be a moderator :)

[penga]

You'll have to excuse me if this has already been discussed in this thread, as I haven't been keeping completely abreast of the entire discussion on here, but here's my thoughts..

"Small Ball"

The emergence of the Golden State Warriors, and their small ball style that has revolutionised the NBA, has made me think how that could transpire into the AFL. Furthermore, you only have to look at Harry Marsh's efforts on Cameron vs Buddy on Davis; albeit as a one off game comparison. Delivery is the key for key forwards, and if the mids are being let off the leash through the middle, I don't care if you're Davis, SOS, Reg, or McGlynn, you can't stop lace out delivery. So do we actually need a big, bulking backman? Added to that, third up marking contests, which we got killed by on the weekend, is the norm for defense these days, anyway. As a slightly stupid comparison, would you prefer a back six with Reg clones, or Rampe clones? Rampe everyday, as much as I love Reg. The advantage of having ball users coming out of the back, who may occasionally get monstered, would weigh up much better than a bunch of monsters who can't use the ball. Marsh is 189cm, as tall as Mal Michael and Craig Bolton, and I'm not saying he is the future of our backline, but perhaps we're not as in dire need of a big backman as we think. I hold out hope for Tahlia, and I'd love to see Reid, first of all get over his injuries, sagging off his man to win every high ball. The days of the 195cm Jeff White type ruckman is over, considering Patrick Cripps is the same height, but a resting ruckman in the forward line, with Rampe on him, creates a favourable mismatch.. to us.

[WauchopeAnalyst]

Going forward, George Hewett appears to be, or will be, our most complete footballer in terms of skills, decision making, movement.

His left foot, or non-dominant foot, spear to Heeney was exquisite compared to most of our bomb kicking, his decision making is great, due partly to his movement and therefore creating more time to evaluate his options and also knowing where and when to be there. His goal kicking looks very fluid and again once settled looks very solid in his mechanics.

If he gets about 20 games this year could prepare him for a massive career for him and will built his motor every off season. Where is his contract situation?:hmmmm2:

[Triple B]

Where is his contract situation?:hmmmm2:

He signed an extension about a month ago. There'll be a link somewhere...

[WauchopeAnalyst]

wooohooooo:clap: around 1 June, I missed it badly.

[Mug Punter]

I know this may be a bit off thread...

On the Couch were looking at GWS and the talk was their surplus of talent. The context was whether Essendon would trade their number 1 pick and the general consensus was they needed an immediate injection of talent and could not wait two to three years, especially as the draft, whilst of a good standard, does not have a standout with 1-8 pretty even apparently.

They talked of the Bombers trading pick 1 for a couple of the GWS players and when they listed their potential surplus players it was just incredible - Tomlinson, Hoskin-Elliot, Stewart, Marchbank and Steele just to name a few. It will be interesting to see how it pans out - I could see GWS trading players for an extra first rounder which will give them four first rounders which is really another massive recruitment wave - it's just how they do it, maybe Pick 1 isn't that prized this year but I can't see them having less than four first rounders. Then again maybe they'll trade for future picks. IMO both Hoskin-Elliot and Tomlinson are worth first round picks so I reckon either of them and a sweetener like a Jack Steele would have to be very tempting for Woosha, especially if he could somehow get a first rounder thrown in as well from GWS by trading future picks and maybe their second rounder for points.

And that is just good list management (non GWS bashing from me here)

Remember they still need to offload a couple of players off their list and they may need to shed some cap space. There's definitely some talent there to be cherry picked but I just can't see us doing any business there. I think we'll just play the straight bat this year and that we'll be needs based recruiting again with a KPD coming in via some trade

[Mug Punter]

You'll have to excuse me if this has already been discussed in this thread, as I haven't been keeping completely abreast of the entire discussion on here, but here's my thoughts..

"Small Ball"

The emergence of the Golden State Warriors, and their small ball style that has revolutionised the NBA, has made me think how that could transpire into the AFL. Furthermore, you only have to look at Harry Marsh's efforts on Cameron vs Buddy on Davis; albeit as a one off game comparison. Delivery is the key for key forwards, and if the mids are being let off the leash through the middle, I don't care if you're Davis, SOS, Reg, or McGlynn, you can't stop lace out delivery. So do we actually need a big, bulking backman? Added to that, third up marking contests, which we got killed by on the weekend, is the norm for defense these days, anyway. As a slightly stupid comparison, would you prefer a back six with Reg clones, or Rampe clones? Rampe everyday, as much as I love Reg. The advantage of having ball users coming out of the back, who may occasionally get monstered, would weigh up much better than a bunch of monsters who can't use the ball. Marsh is 189cm, as tall as Mal Michael and Craig Bolton, and I'm not saying he is the future of our backline, but perhaps we're not as in dire need of a big backman as we think. I hold out hope for Tahlia, and I'd love to see Reid, first of all get over his injuries, sagging off his man to win every high ball. The days of the 195cm Jeff White type ruckman is over, considering Patrick Cripps is the same height, but a resting ruckman in the forward line, with Rampe on him, creates a favourable mismatch.. to us.

Not across the basketball analogy but I have been mightily impressed with the jobs Rampe (and Laidler to a lesser extent) has been doing this year and Marsh and Aliir have also looked much better than I thought they would. I still think we'll go for a defender at year end, if only because it is the only area of our squad that has a semblance of weakness about it, but I don't feel the same degree of concern about our defence as I did at the start of the season.

[Auntie.Gerald]

I have loved the speed and kick out of the GWS backline this season as it has destroyed other teams most weeks

Ie Shaw, Wilson, Williams etc so personally I would like us to tinker with our backline rotation re speed

A super fast but tall Jonathon marsh 194cm developing player would be great for the HBF....it will be his 3rd year of afl

My gut feeling is Ted will retire

Mcglynn move on to the Gold Coast Suns

McVeigh will stay one more season and experience and game da organisation will be key

We have Talia and AA that can step in for the talls succession inthe backs when needed

Harrison marsh will be a great understudy for nick smith and will get more game time in a lock down type role and at 189cm can move and medium talls and small S as he is mobile young swampy......this allows Zac 50% more time in the midfield

2017

B Smith, Heath Grundy Zak Jones

HB Laidler, Rampe, H.Marsh

C Heeney, Kennedy, Mills

HF macca, Franklin, Hannebery

F Reid, Rohan, Parker

FOL
Kurt Tippett, k jack, Mitchell ?

I/C Hewett, Lloyd, Sinclair, Towers

EMG

AA
Talia
Harry Cunningham
Abe Davis
Sam Naismith
James rose
Jonathon marsh ?

[Ludwig]

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd take an early crack at the 2017 team by making a few changes to your side. I left out both Macca and Mitchell, although I expect that both will be in our best 22 next year. WCE-ESS game too boring to watch any longer.



2017

B Smith, Grundy, Talia

HB Laidler, Rampe, Newman

C Heeney, Jack, Hannebery

HF Papley, Franklin, Rose

F Reid, Rohan, Tippett

FOL: Naismith, Kennedy, Parker

I/C Hewett, Jones, O'Riordan, Mills

EMG: Davis, Cunningham, Lloyd

[Auntie.Gerald]

Oops forgot paps but it's time ahead of Mcglynn me thinks for 2017

Kennedy, hannes, Heath, buddy, jack, Parker, smithy, Rampe, laids, Tippett, Sinclair = plenty of leaders

11

[Auntie.Gerald]

Ps for me laids and Rampe have proven so far how adaptable our back line is without two 193cm type backs ie only Grundy in the main

Rampe going to a tall has meant our counter attack is sharp as he breaks so fast

Gws have shown how a shorter fast backline can be lethal

Hawthorn has gone for a fast tall backline

Laids at 190cm to me plays like a 193cm easily as his arm span is a few inches more then most guys 193cmish if not longer

[barry]

I think McVeigh and Ted will retire, and maybe mcGlynn retires or leaves.

Our backline is actually performing really well. I think the problems are overstated. But we are at a cross roads where we either promote from within to replace ted, or go to the market to get an established player.

I think we can cover ted internally. Talia, Marsh and Allir have to produce strong 2nd half of the seasons to prove that.

We probably need a new running half back (Heath Shaw type) more than anything.

[RogueSwan]

... We probably need a new running half back (Heath Shaw type) more than anything.
Lewis Jetta?

[Ludwig]

We probably need a new running half back (Heath Shaw type) more than anything. Jones has provided some good run off half back, but suspect he will play more through the midfield as time goes on.

Newman is the one that could provide that run. Reminds me a lot of Malceski in the way he plays. Gets plenty of the ball, runs hard and kicks well.

O'Riordan should be ready to go at senior level next year and is playing well enough to be worth a go this year, but doubt it will happen. I think he'll be more of a wingman, but is also is a hard runner. It will interesting to see how Leonardis goes in his development because he's a very energetic player.

The Giants have a good attack off half back because they have a fair few who can run hard and kick well, particularly Wilson and Williams, plus guys like Scully and Whitfield in support. Hawthorn have proven that you don't need quick players to provide good rebound out of defence if you've got players who can kick the ball accurately and know where to run.

I think McVeigh will still be around for another couple of years, at least. But it is true that he doesn't create much in rebound attack. Lloyd is a hard runner, but not a dangerous line breaker. Cunningham could have been that player, but doesn't get enough of the ball.

I still think Rohan is one of the possibilities for a running half back role. If Towers can hold his spot in the forward line, that may well free Rohan to play another role.

[RogueSwan]

... Hawthorn have proven that you don't need quick players to provide good rebound out of defence if you've got players who can kick the ball accurately and know where to run. ...1531

[Cosmic Wizard]

Hey boys and girls, check out the video of Mitch McCarthy, 6.5 inches "Mitch McCarthy Laguntas Game 3" youtube.

Sorry can't seem to do the link. Seriously good leap, just what we need in the big tall defender department.

Mention in Five talking points: The under-18 championships - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-06-29/five-talking-points-the-under18-championships) at the end.

He has being injury and but looks at terrific player.!

We have the small, nows let go for the leaping giant.

[rojo]

Only if he is a good mark, has good disposal skills, is a good decision maker, plays with composure under pressure , has grunt and is good below the knees as well!

[Mug Punter]

Jones has provided some good run off half back, but suspect he will play more through the midfield as time goes on.

Newman is the one that could provide that run. Reminds me a lot of Malceski in the way he plays. Gets plenty of the ball, runs hard and kicks well.

O'Riordan should be ready to go at senior level next year and is playing well enough to be worth a go this year, but doubt it will happen. I think he'll be more of a wingman, but is also is a hard runner. It will interesting to see how Leonardis goes in his development because he's a very energetic player.

The Giants have a good attack off half back because they have a fair few who can run hard and kick well, particularly Wilson and Williams, plus guys like Scully and Whitfield in support. Hawthorn have proven that you don't need quick players to provide good rebound out of defence if you've got players who can kick the ball accurately and know where to run.

I think McVeigh will still be around for another couple of years, at least. But it is true that he doesn't create much in rebound attack. Lloyd is a hard runner, but not a dangerous line breaker. Cunningham could have been that player, but doesn't get enough of the ball.

I still think Rohan is one of the possibilities for a running half back role. If Towers can hold his spot in the forward line, that may well free Rohan to play another role.

O'Riordan I think will slot in perfectly on the half back flank, I really rate this kid.

Jones is playing well there and Mills has too though I can see him playing midfield next year.

Rohan certainly has the speed but I really like him up forward as our third tall when he leads long and straight and plays the lines. Plus he is usually a very good kick for goal.

Reid really isn't overly missed for mine. He has promised a lot and delivered much less than a $500K a year deal demands. I cannot help wonder if he'll be offered up as trade bait should Deano prove his critics wrong.

[Cosmic Wizard]

Only if he is a good mark, has good disposal skills, is a good decision maker, plays with composure under pressure , has grunt and is good below the knees as well!

Did you watch the video??? Does all of those!

[rojo]

Hmmm .... the mark was OK.

[Cosmic Wizard]

How about Adam Tomlinson, 193cm, killing it the NEAFL, and last year Carlton offered pick #11 for the man.

Why go to do the draft and hope for a star, when there is one there and five years of elite training in him??

Offer our pick 16-18 for him, the Giants have a swag of academy star they need to find points for, everyones happy.

Combines that with Marchbank and we solve our backline!

[Mug Punter]

How about Adam Tomlinson, 193cm, killing it the NEAFL, and last year Carlton offered pick #11 for the man.

Why go to do the draft and hope for a star, when there is one there and five years of elite training in him??

Offer our pick 16-18 for him, the Giants have a swag of academy star they need to find points for, everyones happy.

Combines that with Marchbank and we solve our backline!

We're no chance.

Tomlinson plus another player like Steele will probably be bundled up and traded to Essendon for the Number 1 Pick

I think they will use the cap space freed up to lock in Marchbank.

Stewart and maybe a bundle of other players to get their list down to 40 will also be offered up, probably for an early second rounder next year.

That still eaves them with Hoskin-Eliot as their back up KPF and a bunch of other guns coming through.

I can well see this years Premiers having the Number 1 pick and two other first rounders (one at 6-8) this year. That list has the potential to make the AFL a non contest for the next five to eight years. Truly terrifying

[Maltopia]

I think we are now (surprisingly) looking very good with all the youngsters after the early doom and gloom. We have Tippet, Reid, Heeney, Tahlia, Robinson, Laider and BJ out of the team that beat Geelong at SS. Benny was out of the team too, but I don't really see him being part of the team next year.

Re GWS, what have they done so well with their recruiting and trading compared to Gold Coast who has had the same concessions?

[Mug Punter]

GWS took a markedly different approach to GCS

Gold Coast went after elite players like Ablett and questionable signings like Campbell Brown.

GWS largely mined the draft with a couple of astute but still quite young developing elite players (Ward, Scully, Palmer) and accepted they'd cop two to three years of hidings. They then had some serious trade currency by the end of their third season and we able to start cashing in their kids, and I think it also needs noting given the drug culture at Gold Coast that they seem to have gotten that part better too. Out goes Boyd, Adams, Tyson and in comes Shaw, Griffin, Patful plus picks. Then they trade out future picks last draft so they have three first rounders this year and will probably also get the First Pick from the Bombers as they start to trade out to get their list down to 38 truly elite players. Not to mention they have a blue chip recruitment zone in the Riverina that goes totally against what the Academy System was designed for.

Then there were the concessions given. The common view is that GWS got a better rub but they were q

[Mug Punter]

GWS took a markedly different approach to GCS

Gold Coast went after elite players like Ablett and questionable signings like Campbell Brown.

GWS largely mined the draft with a couple of astute but still quite young developing elite players (Ward, Scully, Palmer) and accepted they'd cop two to three years of hidings. They then had some serious trade currency by the end of their third season and we able to start cashing in their kids, and I think it also needs noting given the drug culture at Gold Coast that they seem to have gotten that part better too. Out goes Boyd, Adams, Tyson and in comes Shaw, Griffin, Patful plus picks. Then they trade out future picks last draft so they have three first rounders this year and will probably also get the First Pick from the Bombers as they start to trade out to get their list down to 38 truly elite players. Not to mention they have a blue chip recruitment zone in the Riverina that goes totally against what the Academy System was designed for.

Then there were the concessions given. The common view is that GWS got a better rub but they were q

I had an additional post but got timed out. Essntially GWS got about 4 extra first round picks but GCS had first crack at free agent stars. Essentially I think GWS have just done a better job

[liz]

Gold Coast have also had a rotten run with injury over three years now, especially to top quality players like O'Meara and Swallow.

[Mug Punter]

Gold Coast have also had a rotten run with injury over three years now, especially to top quality players like O'Meara and Swallow.

This is true and they really need to re-sign them but I can't see them staying if they have any football ambition.

At the moment Gold Coast will be looking at more than a mini-rebuild, it will be wholesale surgery.

They're currently looking at two first rounders (picks 4 and 9 at present) plus four second rounders (21,22,25 and 28 at present). Both O'Meara and Swallow would have to be worth single figure first round picks and you'd think they'd want at least one at this year's draft. They do have a couple of very good academy kids I believe (Jack Bowes is rated as an early first rounder and may well go before 4)

They'd better hope Rocket is the right man for the job, I think he is actually.

[Mug Punter]

Of course GWS has none of these issues and good on them, they've built a fantasy football list very well.

Yes, they are currently $600K over their cap for next year but if you have a look at their list they have nothing to worry about.

For starters their list currently stands at 42 so I think we can safely assume they try and get down to 39-40 for next year so that will largely sort out any cap issues.

Let's assume they go for four draftees, one upgrade and seven/eight out.

They currently have the following draft picks based on the current ladder - 8, 12, 13, 30 and 34.

I can see them trading to get the Number 1 Pick and I reckon they'll get them. Whoever it is will want at least a couple of gun players (let's say either Hoskin-Eliott or Tomlinson plus Jack Steele). They might need to give up one of their second rounders to sweeten the deal.

That leaves six players they can then trade out for value in future picks plus at least one second rounder. Players I could see as tradable are as follows:
* Stewart (Age 22, Draft Pick 27, 18 Games)
* McCarthy (Age 21, Draft Pick 14, 21 Games)
* Pickett (Age 19, Draft Pick 4, zero games)
Jake Barrett, Tim Mohr, Finlayson and McKenna might have some value too. At the very least you'd think they'll get a first rounder and second rounder from the following year given that they'd throw a second round draft pick into the mix.

And from my calcs that would see my GWS List of 2017 have 26 first round draft picks in their squad.

We ain't seen nothing yet.

[Ludwig]

GSW have list size and salary cap concessions through 2018. It's hard to say if they will try to reduce their senior list this draft period. They can still carry 44 senior players next year. It will probably depend on who they trade and particularly who wants to be traded.

There are 5 academy players (Mutch, Settlefield, McCreadie, Sproule and Perryman) who could all go in the top 25. So I think they will take them all and look to let go at least 5 current players. I doubt either of their 2 rookies will be elevated, although both have been this year due to LTI.

McCarthy, Mohr, Dawson Simpson are the first 3 that i would unload. Then it would be who wants out: Perhaps, Hoskin-Elliot, Tomlinson and Stewart will want out for more playing opportunities. Steele is out of contract and has also been mentioned. They have so many mids that they will probably let him go it he wants out.

I would take Finlayson for a 3rd round pick, but now that Aliir is doing so well, it doesn't matter so much, as he might just as likely struggle to break into the Swans' lineup as the Giants.

Eventually the salary cap will bring them back down to earth.

[Maltopia]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I did wonder about giving up Membrey and pick 39 for 37. Goodes only had another year realistically back then, so he only needed to wait out another year in the 2s and a spot would open up for the taking. He has done really well for the Saints this year and is starting to look like one that got away, especially if Heeney moves to the midfield in a couple of years.

[caj23]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I did wonder about giving up Membrey and pick 39 for 37. Goodes only had another year realistically back then, so he only needed to wait out another year in the 2s and a spot would open up for the taking. He has done really well for the Saints this year and is starting to look like one that got away, especially if Heeney moves to the midfield in a couple of years.

Stuff him, he wasn't willing to back himself and took the easy option with a cellar dweller. As an aside he's a flat track bully anyway, his bags have come against poor teams and has gone missing against quality opposition every time.

[liz]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I did wonder about giving up Membrey and pick 39 for 37. Goodes only had another year realistically back then, so he only needed to wait out another year in the 2s and a spot would open up for the taking. He has done really well for the Saints this year and is starting to look like one that got away, especially if Heeney moves to the midfield in a couple of years.

He was out of contract and was lured by the Saints with promises of senior opportunities and a pretty fat contract (compared to what the Swans would have been willing to pay). It just shows that it is hard to stockpile decent quality players in the reserves if you are a team near the top of the ladder.

[Auntie.Gerald]

I think Rose or Abd Davis have potential to play a similar role to Membrey but Membrey has a pretty awesome kick him

For now Rohan is playing the mid tall role and doing well :)

[Ludwig]

He was out of contract and was lured by the Saints with promises of senior opportunities and a pretty fat contract (compared to what the Swans would have been willing to pay). It just shows that it is hard to stockpile decent quality players in the reserves if you are a team near the top of the ladder. And a little reminder of what is in store for the Giants in the coming years as their salary cap concessions come to an end.

Membrey might find a spot in our side now, but probably not if Reid were fit. And if you want to see someone who can kick goals on a regular basis from outside 50 (besides Buddy), Jordan Dawson is coming to your town. He's beginning to look the find of the 2015 draft.

[mcs]

And a little reminder of what is in store for the Giants in the coming years as their salary cap concessions come to an end.

Membrey might find a spot in our side now, but probably not if Reid were fit. And if you want to see someone who can kick goals on a regular basis from outside 50 (besides Buddy), Jordan Dawson is coming to your town. He's beginning to look the find of the 2015 draft.

I was impressed by Dawson on Saturday in the ressies game - there really is something about him and I like how he is developing. Another good pre-season and he will be well and truly knocking on the door for seniors in 2017.

[Mug Punter]

GSW have list size and salary cap concessions through 2018. It's hard to say if they will try to reduce their senior list this draft period. They can still carry 44 senior players next year. It will probably depend on who they trade and particularly who wants to be traded.

There are 5 academy players (Mutch, Settlefield, McCreadie, Sproule and Perryman) who could all go in the top 25. So I think they will take them all and look to let go at least 5 current players. I doubt either of their 2 rookies will be elevated, although both have been this year due to LTI.

McCarthy, Mohr, Dawson Simpson are the first 3 that i would unload. Then it would be who wants out: Perhaps, Hoskin-Elliot, Tomlinson and Stewart will want out for more playing opportunities. Steele is out of contract and has also been mentioned. They have so many mids that they will probably let him go it he wants out.

I would take Finlayson for a 3rd round pick, but now that Aliir is doing so well, it doesn't matter so much, as he might just as likely struggle to break into the Swans' lineup as the Giants.

Eventually the salary cap will bring them back down to earth.

I'd imagine they'll try and get down asap, it's the easiest way to get their cap under control and now their list is "grown up" they can make some firm decisions. If you are right with your academy picks then they could well get them along with Pick 1 and then really unload. They'd almost have enough points for those five from their existing three other first rounders plus their second rounder. I guess there could be an opportunity for us there with a Finlayson type, another NSW boy would be good, provided we don't pay too much. I'm starting to agree with you that we may not need to go for an established KPD and that we should just continue with developing the next generation.

The salary cap will bring them back to an extent but players will often stay for unders when they are winning multiple flags.

[Maltopia]

I've read a few posts here where it is suggested GWS will trade for the #1 pick. Whilst they have the means to do so, I don't think it would be wise. The reason being that there is already so much noise about GWS's list and how they have had so many picks (number 1 as well in 2011, 2012 and 2013). If they trade for the number 1 again, it will just lead to more calls about the Academy and concessions being broken.

We did nothing wrong in recruiting Tippet and Franklin, and look where that got us with the COLA and then the unfair trading ban when we also lost Mumford and Malceski over the same period?

Can you imagine what would happen to GWS concessions if they got another number 1 pick even though it is within the rules, whilst finishing in the top 8/4/2 or going deep into the finals?

Look at what Macquire did to Brisbane's salary cap after they won their three premierships for example.

[707]

You really have to hope that teams bid for GWS academy players when they should be bid on. You only have to get a number of clubs not bothering for the said draftee end up very cheap for GWS.

They may however be a bit loath to bid just in case GWS don't match, then they are stuck with a GWS infused draftee, although if your academy team has failed to match for you, you'd be fairly pissed off!

Not sure we would do it because of the sheer number of picks available to GWS that could come back to bite us, but we are in a nice position to bid on GWS academy players, if they didn't match the draftee might not be too disappointed going to the other NSW club.

This year looms as another really interesting draft. There will be massive agitation from down south about the GWS draft haul, particularly if they go deep into Sept. GWS will be aware of this so won't chase higher picks. The danger is if the first GWS academy player bid on is after their highest pick meaning they could get a player from the general pool before their first academy player. That would have Eddie and co torching VFL headquarters.

Think GWS in their trading will aim for 2018 picks as they already have enough points this year to take all the academy players they will want, and them some!

[Mug Punter]

You really have to hope that teams bid for GWS academy players when they should be bid on. You only have to get a number of clubs not bothering for the said draftee end up very cheap for GWS.

They may however be a bit loath to bid just in case GWS don't match, then they are stuck with a GWS infused draftee, although if your academy team has failed to match for you, you'd be fairly pissed off!

Not sure we would do it because of the sheer number of picks available to GWS that could come back to bite us, but we are in a nice position to bid on GWS academy players, if they didn't match the draftee might not be too disappointed going to the other NSW club.

This year looms as another really interesting draft. There will be massive agitation from down south about the GWS draft haul, particularly if they go deep into Sept. GWS will be aware of this so won't chase higher picks. The danger is if the first GWS academy player bid on is after their highest pick meaning they could get a player from the general pool before their first academy player. That would have Eddie and co torching VFL headquarters.

Think GWS in their trading will aim for 2018 picks as they already have enough points this year to take all the academy players they will want, and them some!

I think that the Riverina issue will be resolved and to be quite honest I think this is the major final bugbear of the non-Academy clubs. The issue of gaining extra points from your trading strategy is also a fair point, all clubs should be able to trade picks as they see fit but you shouldn't get extra points from it IMO.

But I'm not sure that the Riverina changes will be made until next year so I'd expect GWS to bank as many academy kids as they can.

But having said that I really do think the VFL will get rid of the Academy discount which will really kill one of the game's best ideas off. And as I've said, we'll be OK but Brisbane should just shut up shop.

In terms of our strategy I've down a complete 180 degree turn re a KPD because I am just blown away how well AA has developed. Along with Rampe playing the KPD role on big targets. With Talia and Reid as KPD backups I'd just upgrade three rookies and take our Picks 1 and 2, though I would go for the best young KPD at Pick 1. And I'd keep Towers for sure because he will keep on getting better. Obviously Mitchell is the question mark and I think we'd take a future Round 1 Pick.

[barry]

If the AFL remove the riverina from GWS then expect GWS to be given an existing swans zone in a NSW restructure.

I dont think they should lose the riverina by the way.

[Mug Punter]

If the AFL remove the riverina from GWS then expect GWS to be given an existing swans zone in a NSW restructure.

I dont think they should lose the riverina by the way.

If that's what it takes, say the Illawarra-South Coast area, to keep the Academy System then I'd cop that.

Canberra should provide plenty of opportunity and it's an area that until the last 20 years of NSWAFL neglect has traditionally been very strong. And GWS should still have Broken Hill that is a traditional AFL area.

I think that the clubs look at Mills and Heeney and they can see how we have developed them and taken them from another sport's pathway. They see kids running around for Victorian clubs in the TAC Cup (FFS one even plays for the Northern Jets in Melbourne) and then wonder how on earth GWS can claim to have developed that talent and draft them at a discount. It's a fair question and I'd like to think I'd fair-minded enough to feel that way if the Swans had those zones.

IMO it is all about the academy system being about development in non-traditional AFL strongholds and not about a recruitment zone based on state boundaries.

The attached article is pretty fair IMO GWS' academy region is 'overkill': Hawthorn list manager - AFL.com.au (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-05-24/gws-academy-region-is-overkill-hawthorn-list-manager)

[barry]

Why keep broken hill and lose riverina?

We don't need change. We can bid for any player.

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[Mug Punter]

Reading the Age article today it would be seem that they are not looking at abandoning the discount altogether.

And, rightly or wrongly, I think that the Riverina will be stripped out for the very reason it is not a development zone.

As long as we, and other academy clubs, get the discount on our Number 1 Pick then that's fine with me. In many ways that's all we want and in reality we would never be able to afford Mills and Heeney in the same draft unless we throw away all the next years picks or trade a first rounder.

And I don't have a problem with the discount not applying if you don't have a pick in that round. If you think you have an academy kid that you'd take first round you keep your first round pick, simple as that.

It goes back to the attempt decades ago by the Swans to offer to take development responsibility of NSW-ACT in return for ONE priority pick in the Draft. And I'd also cop having no discount applied to our first rounder but us having to Draft a first rounder with an Academy kid - we would have won the last two years but will lose this year.

I suspect there will be some tinkering but FFS let's just give this system 5 years to prove it's worth.

[barry]

How many players does a zone have to produce before it is no longer a development zone ?

Isn't that a disencentive to develop it ?

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[Bloods05]

How many players does a zone have to produce before it is no longer a development zone ?

Isn't that a disencentive to develop it ?

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The Riverina is not a development zone. That is all.

[Mug Punter]

The Riverina is not a development zone. That is all.

+1, it's as bloody simple as that.

[Triple B]

The Riverina is not a development zone. That is all.


+1, it's as bloody simple as that.

But some parts of the Riverina are development zones of sorts. Just as many great League players have come out of Wagga and surrounding towns as AFL players. If the academy in that area means the AFL get an inside running at luring the elite talent, then that has to be a good thing.

I have no argument when it comes to Albury and towns along the Murray, that is clearly AFL territory.