2022 AFL National Draft and Rookie Draft 28 & 29 November 2022

[Velour&Ruffles]

There’s so much about the post above that horrifies me - mostly that indigenous players can or should be considered as a distinct group, rather than assessed individually on their own merits.

I think the issue is a bit more complex than that. I am sure we would all agree that having an indigenous liaison officer/indigenous welfare officer at a club is a good move. But doesn't that presuppose that there are particular challenges for indigenous players as a distinct group?

[The Big Cat]

What First Nations gun have we passed over in recent years? The truth is we were the only team to give ET a chance.

[Blood Fever]

I think the issue is a bit more complex than that. I am sure we would all agree that having an indigenous liaison officer/indigenous welfare officer at a club is a good move. But doesn't that presuppose that there are particular challenges for indigenous players as a distinct group?

Martin Luther King said that people should be judged on the content of their character not the colour of their skin. Everybody should be judged on their merits and not be the subject of prejudice and stereotyping. At the same time, indigenous players are saying that a lot more work is needed in the welfare and cultural awareness areas for them as a group. As Ludwig said, it is a complex situation. It is fraught for those who are trying make thing better, especially if you are non indigenous.

[barry]

We profile every single player in the draft in terms of what are the odds they will make it, and what are the odds they will stay. I think it would be wrong to interpret we are racist because we haven't drafted any aboriginals. It's more likely that our non racial criteria for selection shews against aboriginals.
As it does against Victorian mummies boys.

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Or Victorian Italian's?

[Blood Fever]

We profile every single player in the draft in terms of what are the odds they will make it, and what are the odds they will stay. I think it would be wrong to interpret we are racist because we haven't drafted any aboriginals. It's more likely that our non racial criteria for selection shews against aboriginals.
As it does against Victorian mummies boys.

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Or Victorian Italian's?

Post of the year!

[bloodspirit]

I agree we have not drafted many Indigenous players in the past 20 years and that is disappointing. I wonder what the proportion of Indigenous players we have drafted this century, and how that compares to the rest of the competition? It is interesting to speculate on the reasons for this anomaly (assuming there is one), but I don't feel able to reach any conclusions. I do think that it is significant that there are few Indigenous players from NSW

On the other hand, I am encouraged that:

* we are one of few clubs to have an Indigenous board member

* we were an early adopter of Reconciliation Action Plans

* we have an Indigenous "Strategy and Player Development Manager" (Jarred Hodges), despite having relatively few Indigenous players

* we clearly are making some effort to respect Indigenous culture and history, both through AFL-wide initiatives (like Sir Doug Nicholls round), through collaborations with our partner the GO Foundation, and also through our own efforts to acknowledge things like Naidoc week and the 30th anniversary of the Mabo decision

* we have benefitted from the presence of some great Indigenous players, most especially Adam Goodes, who have helped open our eyes to issues and discrimination Indigenous people face

* most recently we have established this program to identify and foster local (i.e. NSW) Indigenous talent and give them additional pathways to play AFL

* we are one of only two clubs to consider taking up Eddie Betts recommendation that all clubs undertake a review similar to the one done at Hawthorn to inquire about our treatment of Indigenous players historically (the other club is Freo): AFL news 2022: Hawthorn Hawks racism report, other clubs conducting external reviews, Sydney Swans, Michael O’Loughlin, Fremantle Dockers, all 18 clubs’ response, Eddie Betts call, latest (foxsports.com.au). The sub-committee is chaired by Michael O'Loughlin and also includes Andrew Pridham, Tom Harley & Belinda Rowe (so, a pretty heavyweight sub-committee) and will consider "relevant issues".


A couple of extra things:

Now that we have an AFLW team we have more Indigenous players with two of our AFLW list having Indigenous heritage (Aliesha Newman and Jaide Anthony).

Here's some footage of great moments from our Indigenous star players over the years (albeit conspicuously brief, but it could have been longer): Indigenous Stars to have played for Sydney (sydneyswans.com.au).

And here is a list of Indigenous players who have played senior footy for the Swans: Swans deep Indigenous heritage (sydneyswans.com.au). I think the "depth" of Indigenous heritage is perhaps exaggerated. However, it is noteworthy that we have had a steady trickle of Indigenous players over decades compared with, say, Hawthorn, who had only a single Indigenous player before 2000 and then a bit of a boom in drafting Indigenous talent.

[Mr Magoo]

Need to keep in mind that part of the problem over the past few years was the next gen "academy" system set up for the victorian clubs in response to the northern academies basically gave those clubs first rights over indigenous kids from zones across Australia. That scooping of top tier talent along with the ability to offer private schooling in melbourne with top schools would have pretty much depleted the remaining market of talented kids.

[bloodspirit]

The question for me is whether it is valid to raise the fact that we have only drafted 1 indigenous player in 24 years who was capable of making our best 22, and whether this was due to a bias against selecting indigenous players in the draft.

I presume you refer to Lewis Jetta. I would say that Elijah Taylor was another Indigenous player we drafted who was capable of making (and did, in fact make) our best 22. Tony Armstrong got games but was never more than a fringe a player but Elijah clearly had the requisite talent and the club manifested a commitment to developing and playing him until he strayed too far off the rails.

[Blood Fever]

Need to keep in mind that part of the problem over the past few years was the next gen "academy" system set up for the victorian clubs in response to the northern academies basically gave those clubs first rights over indigenous kids from zones across Australia. That scooping of top tier talent along with the ability to offer private schooling in melbourne with top schools would have pretty much depleted the remaining market of talented kids.

Absolute wank in terms of being involved in any development. Explains a lot I reckon.

[Ludwig]

I presume you refer to Lewis Jetta. I would say that Elijah Taylor was another Indigenous player we drafted who was capable of making (and did, in fact make) our best 22. Tony Armstrong got games but was never more than a fringe a player but Elijah clearly had the requisite talent and the club manifested a commitment to developing and playing him until he strayed too far off the rails.

There were some specific references to Lewis Jetta. He was the only indigenous player drafted during this 24 year period to become a regular in the senior side. I thought Zac Foot had the talent, but we were unlucky that Covid forced a reduction in the list size at a critical time.

I am still reflecting on this. The data suggest there might be a bias, but like barry says, it doesn't mean it's a racial bias. There are many reasons why the effective size of the indigenous talent pool available for us is smaller than the total pool size might suggest, such as there being good reasons for the WA pool to have a local selection bias. The number of good academy selections have also reduced our available top end talent from the ND in recent years.

As mentioned above, the NextGen academy fiasco has also cut into the available draft pool for those without a NextGen academy. And there have been some really good players in that group which we haven't had access to.

I do recall that Jetta had a strong following on RWO in 2009 and was probably the consensus choice at that pick in the 2009 draft. It's hard to recall the 11 drafts prior to that in much detail.

Personally, I remember being a fan of Shai Bolton and Cedric Cox in the 2016 draft. One became a star and the other failed. I still thought that Hayward was the best choice at our 2nd pick in the draft.

The previous 2 drafts were taken up by Heeney and Mills.

I don't recall there being an indigenous player that I wanted us to draft since 2016 with what was available at our top picks, and I did support the 2nd round selection of ET, so I don't think there is anything to suggest that there was a racial bias in recent years when getting down to specific drafts.

I probably looked into the data more closely this year because I have Isaac Keeler as my preferred choice in the 1st round of this year's draft, and that coinciding with the Hawthorn story, and whether that might influence our selection. I have no idea if Keeler has a desire to stay in SA. Adelaide's first pick is at 23, which would be in Keeler's range, but after our 2 first rounders. It will be interesting to see if he makes it to that pick. Port's first pick is in the 30s.

I usually see the logic in KB's selections, even when they differ from my preferences. Obviously, our list managers have looked into the draft pool in great detail, while we just are going with superficial information and draft guru rankings.

[sharp9]

What First Nations gun have we passed over in recent years? The truth is we were the only team to give ET a chance.

Cyril Rioli #bigsigh. And to think what he ended up on the end of… we were supposedly doing him a favor. We didn’t back our system and we should have.

[bloodspirit]

I am still reflecting on this. The data suggest there might be a bias, but like barry says, it doesn't mean it's a racial bias. There are many reasons why the effective size of the indigenous talent pool available for us is smaller than the total pool size might suggest, such as there being good reasons for the WA pool to have a local selection bias. The number of good academy selections have also reduced our available top end talent from the ND in recent years.

...

Personally, I remember being a fan of Shai Bolton and Cedric Cox in the 2016 draft. One became a star and the other failed. I still thought that Hayward was the best choice at our 2nd pick in the draft.

I seem to recall you were keen on Jy Simpkin too - or was that a different poster?

As for the idea about the bias not being 'racial' - this is the distinction between direct and indirect (or 'structural') discrimination. If a criterion impacts disproportionately on a group - even though that is not the actual intention - then it is discriminates against them indirectly. This type of structural bias is more common and also more insidious and less recognised. To give a lame example, if you choose discrimnate against freckly people then you are indirectly biased against redheads. Perhaps a better example is requiring everyone to fill in a form to apply for something: this will discriminate against the illiterate, especially those who are poor and disadvantaged and don't have literate friends who can help them. At first blush it seems pretty reasonable and fair to require everyone to fill in the same form to ask for the same thing. But actually the impact is felt quite differently by different groups.