Are the lower divisions broken?

[saviour01]

After our game last night in div 4 v ECE, many people I talked to post game were shocked that ECE were in div 3 last year (currently 1 win, 6 losses and percentage of 30). The 3 teams that were promoted from div 4 (none of which won the grand final) are currently sitting in 1st, 2nd and 4th with percentages of 254, 277 and 170.

Similar with the team that dropped from div 4 is sitting in 10th with 2 wins, 4 losses and percentage of 33 and the team that came up is in 3rd with 5-2.

I assume the idea for divisionalisation was to make it an even playing field, but if a couple of last years div 4 teams belong in div 2 and last years div 3 side belongs in div 5, is it really even? Or does a good year bring more people to the club and make the promoted teams even better and the opposite for the demoted teams?

I know who ever gets promoted from div 2 to 1 has traditionally made the finals that year. Granted most of my knowledge is around div 4 and div 1, does this translate to other grades?

Good on ECE for driving across Sydney for a 5.45 game and I'm not having a go at them, but they are getting beat most weeks by big margins after losing every game last year.

[water boy]

After our game last night in div 4 v ECE, many people I talked to post game were shocked that ECE were in div 3 last year (currently 1 win, 6 losses and percentage of 30). The 3 teams that were promoted from div 4 (none of which won the grand final) are currently sitting in 1st, 2nd and 4th with percentages of 254, 277 and 170.

Similar with the team that dropped from div 4 is sitting in 10th with 2 wins, 4 losses and percentage of 33 and the team that came up is in 3rd with 5-2.

I assume the idea for divisionalisation was to make it an even playing field, but if a couple of last years div 4 teams belong in div 2 and last years div 3 side belongs in div 5, is it really even? Or does a good year bring more people to the club and make the promoted teams even better and the opposite for the demoted teams?

I know who ever gets promoted from div 2 to 1 has traditionally made the finals that year. Granted most of my knowledge is around div 4 and div 1, does this translate to other grades?

Good on ECE for driving across Sydney for a 5.45 game and I'm not having a go at them, but they are getting beat most weeks by big margins after losing every game last year.

Also good to see some cats guys who didn't get a game in div 5 went over to help east coast with numbers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[redsox]

I think there needs to be something like a round 4 regrade going on. I know it must be hard to get the fixture sorted out but there are some serious anomalies going on.

The St George Div 4 team stands out as being graded far too low and everyone would benefit from them going up at least one grade...it is so far ahead of Div 4 that i would not be surprised if there are a lot of forfeits at the back end of the year with teams not being bothered to go to Olds for a flogging. i know you have justified the grading before but surely it would be more fun if there was a contest each week rather than consistent hollow wins in walk overs. Div 4 could be quite an even contest for about 6 teams otherwise.

u also correctly highlight that some teams end up in the wrong grade for other reasons. there is often retirements after premierships and clubs no longer have the depth to compete in the next level up. A regrading at the end of April whilst a Rep round is played is my suggestion

[The Runner]

Re-grading after 4-5 weeks would fix a lot of the issues. Teams in the lower grades can fluctuate on a weekly basis, let alone annually.
There should also be an acceptance of smaller divisions (5-6 teams). The Women's comp is a great example. Division 1 has 3 teams on a % above 500 and 3 below 20...

Only people put out by this is Sydney AFL having to re-fixture. But they are only reactive and restrict themselves to guidelines and policy.

- - - Updated - - -

And I think it's unfair to lob grenades at St George Div 4. They missed finals last year. Most teams ahead of them got promoted except for the actual Premiers, who despite a 100 point loss on the weekend, will likely feature in the last weekend again this year..

[saviour01]

Re-grading after 4-5 weeks would fix a lot of the issues. Teams in the lower grades can fluctuate on a weekly basis, let alone annually.
There should also be an acceptance of smaller divisions (5-6 teams). The Women's comp is a great example. Division 1 has 3 teams on a % above 500 and 3 below 20...

Only people put out by this is Sydney AFL having to re-fixture. But they are only reactive and restrict themselves to guidelines and policy.

- - - Updated - - -

And I think it's unfair to lob grenades at St George Div 4. They missed finals last year. Most teams ahead of them got promoted except for the actual Premiers, who despite a 100 point loss on the weekend, will likely feature in the last weekend again this year..

I agree about the regrade. Every other comp I've been involved in does it. Seems like Sydney AFL want divisionalisation but don't want to commit fully. Why do it half arsed? Teams are still being flogged or winning by heaps like in the old system, yet the draw isn't as good with that home and away structure. Pick what you want to do and commit to it because having this middle ground which stretches volunteers and still has floggings doesn't really help anyone.

St George div 4 cops it because I am captain/coach and do most of the sledging. Like you said, we missed finals last year, the premiers didn't go up but the 3 who did are 1st, 2nd and 4th. We just have really good depth at the moment as shown by our div 1, u19s1 and div 4 all being undefeated. The other week we had a backline who had all played div 1 or prems last year.

Wynny really has to be congratulated with our academy, bearing fruits at the moment. But again, as you said, come finals time the uni's will turn into superstars and it will be like div1/div2 sides playing against each other.

[5yearplan]

Also good to see some cats guys who didn't get a game in div 5 went over to help east coast with numbers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Great to see clubs actually helping other clubs. Would of been a hard stretch to get up for the game and least by having support forfeits can be avoided too.

[CKunde]

Re-grading after 4-5 weeks would fix a lot of the issues. Teams in the lower grades can fluctuate on a weekly basis, let alone annually.
There should also be an acceptance of smaller divisions (5-6 teams). The Women's comp is a great example. Division 1 has 3 teams on a % above 500 and 3 below 20...


Women's Division 2 should have happened this year, but I don't think it should have been a smaller comp. The sides currently 5th-14th in Division One would make their own division really well and it would be a relatively even comp. The sides 1-4 should have either had a 6 side division one comp with the bottom 2 Premier Division sides or just made Premier Division 12 teams.

Having said that, there are a multitude of competing interests the league needs to negotiate that dramatically effects the equilisation of the competitions. UNSW and USyd are miles ahead of everyone else, which hopefully a points system will rectify in future. Wollongong shouldn't be in Division One, but were clearly unwilling to persist in Premier Division. It's all well and good for me to say 'should have been different' in Round 7, but I don't think it's easy for the league to predict this stuff early.

Plus, with only two women's divisions, it's pretty hard for them to do much to change the structure on the run, if at all. Consider Newtown, teams in both divisions but currently not doing too great in either. There is no lower division for their Div One side to drop back to, and their Premier Division side would destroy the best Div One sides.

Surely a player points system is the way to go in all divisions going forward. If a club gets blessed with a few freaks new to footy, congrats to them. But otherwise things would be a lot more equal. Harder to manage each week for the volunteers in clubland, but more equal.

[redsox]

don't think i am lobbing grenades. As a player from a team that had a 9am kick off at olds and got pumped it isnt any fun and i am predicting future forfeits. I wish we were good enough to compete but we wont be able to.

Surely St George players would prefer a competitive game every week rather than forfeits or circle work against weaker sides. And it comes and goes....if 10 St George players go traveling next year and they lose their depth then a round 4 regrade has them in the right grade rather than getting flogged.

i think all responders are in agreeance that a regrade option would make the comp better for all except the administrators.

Even the AFL is looking at ways of having a redraw for the back end of the season to reduce the number of blow out games that dont mean anything

And i agree that womens comp should be broken up into multiple grades. need to keep players and clubs involved and grow this section of the game. too many mismatches

[Mug Punter]

Re-grading after 4-5 weeks would fix a lot of the issues. Teams in the lower grades can fluctuate on a weekly basis, let alone annually.
There should also be an acceptance of smaller divisions (5-6 teams). The Women's comp is a great example. Division 1 has 3 teams on a % above 500 and 3 below 20...

Only people put out by this is Sydney AFL having to re-fixture. But they are only reactive and restrict themselves to guidelines and policy.

- - - Updated - - -

And I think it's unfair to lob grenades at St George Div 4. They missed finals last year. Most teams ahead of them got promoted except for the actual Premiers, who despite a 100 point loss on the weekend, will likely feature in the last weekend again this year..

It's completely and totally impossible for this to happen on a practical level and that's before even taking into account the NSWAFL incompetence. Fpr starters many venues need to be booked in advance. Imagine the logistics of Sydney Uni with these six teams suddenly having to arrange new grounds, advise players etc.

As far as I know we are the only comp in the nation that operates our divisional structure on the scale we do - the ACTAFL have divisionalisation but the QAFL do not.

Surely the answer is back to the first grade/reserve grade club model with promotion and relegation based on the first grade results

[Norris Lurker]

Unfortunately any system that seeds teams according to last year's results can't take into account changes in numbers and strength that happens during the off-season. St George didn't make the finals in Div 4 last year, so no way were they going to go up unless there's some form of seeding based on early rounds in the current season.
Seeding during the current season would be a logistical nightmare; but may be worth a try in future years. Although some clubs could potentially find a way of manipulating it to their advantage........

[Tom Wills]

In response the Questions "Are the lower divisions broken?" - the answer is a resounding NO.
IMO overall the games in Divisions 2 to 5 have been relatively close. Though we have some issues

1. St George shouldn't be in Division 4 - let them win the flag and be promoted to Division 3 next year. Division 4 will then be fixed with normal relegation and promotion of bottom teams at the end of the season
2. We need a Division 6 - when clubs like North Shore, St George, Penno, Syd Uni etc have been 10 and 20 players missing out on a game their bottom team ends up being fairly good - not your traditional Div 3 of 10 years past where you are ring around on Friday night to get a team together. We need a Division 6 for the true "shxt kickers". The bottom 3 in Div 4 and the bottom 4 in Div 5 would fit nicely in a Div 6 structure.

This year we saw a bit more radical promotion / relegation with 3 teams going up from Division 4 - I am sure another year more radical promotion and relegation will see a truly even comp in 2018.

[mrns]

North Shore's D5 team has held 3 teams goalless so far this season and would love to have a crack at D4. Not sure why SydneyAFL didn't let the club's D2 move to D1 and let us enter a new D3 team instead of moving the D4 up to D3. as the D2,3,5 collectively have 2 losses so far this season

[The Runner]

North Shore's D5 team has held 3 teams goalless so far this season and would love to have a crack at D4. Not sure why SydneyAFL didn't let the club's D2 move to D1 and let us enter a new D3 team instead of moving the D4 up to D3. as the D2,3,5 collectively have 2 losses so far this season

A perfect example for 1-2 teams in each grade shifting based on first months performance. Beatings of 100+ to zero aren't fun for anyone.

[Norris Lurker]

Women's Division 2 should have happened this year, but I don't think it should have been a smaller comp. The sides currently 5th-14th in Division One would make their own division really well and it would be a relatively even comp. The sides 1-4 should have either had a 6 side division one comp with the bottom 2 Premier Division sides or just made Premier Division 12 teams.

Having said that, there are a multitude of competing interests the league needs to negotiate that dramatically effects the equilisation of the competitions. UNSW and USyd are miles ahead of everyone else, which hopefully a points system will rectify in future. Wollongong shouldn't be in Division One, but were clearly unwilling to persist in Premier Division. It's all well and good for me to say 'should have been different' in Round 7, but I don't think it's easy for the league to predict this stuff early.

Plus, with only two women's divisions, it's pretty hard for them to do much to change the structure on the run, if at all. Consider Newtown, teams in both divisions but currently not doing too great in either. There is no lower division for their Div One side to drop back to, and their Premier Division side would destroy the best Div One sides.

Surely a player points system is the way to go in all divisions going forward. If a club gets blessed with a few freaks new to footy, congrats to them. But otherwise things would be a lot more equal. Harder to manage each week for the volunteers in clubland, but more equal.With the growth in numbers in womens' players, a Div 2 will have to happen.
Numbers had been growing anyway, but some clubs have seen a surge of interest since AFLW. Great to see, but it means some clubs have too many players for the team they have - and vast variations in the standards of players they have.

[CKunde]

Numbers had been growing anyway, but some clubs have seen a surge of interest since AFLW. Great to see, but it means some clubs have too many players for the team they have - and vast variations in the standards of players they have.

This has been the case for a couple years. To be honest, I don't think AFLW has had a massive impact at senior level (outside of North Shore, I'm not aware of any club that could claim more than 1-3 players due to AFLW interest - Juniors a different story, perhaps).

The slow process of developing the competition is costing it players, no doubt. E.g., Wollongong were flogging teams in Div One last year. This year only one team has come close to them. They were relegated from Premier Division by request - they weren't the bottom team in Prem Div! Likewise, USyd had massive player numbers last year, but only one team. There was at least one team in Div One that was 'cutting' players, rather than sending them to other sides or arguing to nominate a second side.

Indeed, some clubs appear to have gone backwards in numbers, a trend that will certainly continue if the competitions don't see some rapid equalisation.

[The Runner]

Judging by SportingPulse, there are 3 forfeits by Moorebank (Women's Div 1 & Div 4) and Parra (Div5).

All a shame. I'm sure scheduling doesn't help - looks like Parra were on a Sunday so can't have players doubling. Wonder what the League is doing to assist clubs in need of some help?

[saviour01]

Sounds like parra are struggling
Hi guys, Div1 and the Ressies have that many blokes out that we are going to have to forfeit this match. Believe me when I say I don't even have 10 players confirmed. It's a combination of the match being on Sunday, general unvailabilities because we don't have a solid core of blokes who are able to commit every week, along with an unprecedented number of injuries and unvailabilities in 1st grade and reserves. Reserve grade still needs players so let me or Phil know if you are available to play midday Saturday at Mahoney.

Not good about moorebank in div 4, round 8 and have 3 forfeits.

Its funny how a few years ago the sydney afl was ramming down everyones throats that all clubs should be community clubs first and not to worry about talent as the NEAFL will look after that while they gifted millions of dollars to 2 clubs. 4 or 5 years later one club was so poorly run they had to take a loan from the afl to stay alive the other makes up rules whilst they travel along still putting their hand out for more dollars and talent.

Interestingly the 1 left still receives more money than before when 2 clubs were at the 2nd tier level. Whats this got to do with lower grades? I just wonder how much better off the whole sydney afl would be if those funds were diverted to clubs like nor west, camden, penrith etc who are sitting on a gold mine in future years. We all have read how much help PK says they get from the league. Community clubs should be saying enough is enough. Penno have gone from 3 teams to 7, community spirit being built not bought. Yet clubs rack up hundreds of thousands of debt, the league bails them out and lets them win flags in prems while their other two sides go winless.

Good to see both still struggling while down a division and their prems losing more than they win. No doubt the league will give them more cash though.

[mrns]

A perfect example for 1-2 teams in each grade shifting based on first months performance. Beatings of 100+ to zero aren't fun for anyone.

AFL Sydney Match Centre - SportsTG (http://websites.sportstg.com/round_info.cgi?a=MATCH&fixture=124866179&c=1-1047-0-449937-0&pool=1)

Another thrashing for bombers, they've only conceded 186 points this season with 4 teams kept goalless

[bomber.]

AFL Sydney Match Centre - SportsTG (http://websites.sportstg.com/round_info.cgi?a=MATCH&fixture=124866179&c=1-1047-0-449937-0&pool=1)

Another thrashing for bombers, they've only conceded 186 points this season with 4 teams kept goalless

This is a new team for us that's been added in behind what was a div 4 team m 2016, so no real option but for them to be in div 5. Pretty clear now that they're too strong for the bottom half of that comp.

What about if the AFL added a division or two by cutting the number of teams in each division. Say make 3 divisions out of div 4 and div 5. It would reduce the gap between the top of each division and the bottom.

It seems the AFL in Sydney prefers 10 team comps for 18 rounds. 18 rounds with 8 teams would throw up some anomalies, but we could play more rounds to reduce those issues - or just put up with the anomalies in the interests of more even competition?

[saviour01]

Lower divs are 17 rounds anyway.

[bomber.]

Lower divs are 17 rounds anyway.

Good point, so the anomalies would be smaller anyway.

8 teams in the lower divisions would be worth thinking about. All other things being equal you'd reckon the difference between the top and bottom of an 8 team comp would have to be less than what you'd get in a 12 or 14 team comp?

[saviour01]

For sure. But more and more talk of going back to the old sfl structure. They wont change anything if that is on the cards.

[Pmcc2911]

Interesting to note that the top 4 in Div 1 are all Prems clubs and 7 of the top 8 (apart from Penrith in 3rd) in Div 2 are all Prems clubs as well.
Maybe there is an argument to go an hybrid structure:
Prems
Prems reserve grade
(insert name here) division
(insert name here) division reserves
Then Div 3, 4 and 5 as per capabilities.

[ShortHalfHead]

The league is lining up a dual competition format. They want Prem Div, Prem Reserves, Prem 19's and Prem Womens.

Despite denying it, pretty sure it will happen. The survey sent to clubs was structured in a way for responses to "agree" with the above. No real questions about benefits of divisionalisation.

It's again a pity that AFL resources (staffing, recruitment, funding etc) are all aimed at the PD clubs

[mrns]

Interesting to note that the top 4 in Div 1 are all Prems clubs and 7 of the top 8 (apart from Penrith in 3rd) in Div 2 are all Prems clubs as well.
Maybe there is an argument to go an hybrid structure:
Prems
Prems reserve grade
(insert name here) division
(insert name here) division reserves
Then Div 3, 4 and 5 as per capabilities.
I'd love to see clubs in prems fielding three teams as a bare minimum.

Prems
Reserves
19s Prems

Being the requirement of the premier division clubs, it will put pressure on clubs to develop better players. The effect of that would see a greater playing standard in premier division. To have a good prems team you're going to need to have good reserves and good 19s coming through and able to rise to the occasion.

From there, you have have division football including womens & another 19s division.

[bomber.]

The league is lining up a dual competition format. They want Prem Div, Prem Reserves, Prem 19's and Prem Womens.

Despite denying it, pretty sure it will happen.

Not denying there might be some benefits to something like this, but it won't have much effect on blowout scorelines in the lower divisions.

More divisions and fewer teams per division would have to help.

Reducing average winning margins must make footy more enjoyable for everyone, which has to help retain players and develop clubs.

[Tom Wills]

Why try and change something that is more than not broken, but working exceptionally well.

Division 1 is the best example, there are no easy games, as Southern Power showed beating the Cats. Again a good example for supporting divisions is the percentage of the top 3 teams in Div 1 (St George 169%. Penno 139% and Syd Uni 123%), compare this to the reserve comp in the O&M and its Albury 287%, Raiders 339% and Wodonga 304%). While the top teams are from Premier division clubs they are not having easy wins. The same is the case with the bottom teams from Prems to Div 3 - they are scoring goals and not getting smashed.

There are some teams in the wrong division, (St George Div 4 to 3 or 2, North Shore lower grades to all go up a division) but that will be sorted out next season through promotion and relegation.

Compare our ladders to other competitions around Australia and it is amazingly competitive.

Finally there are only 3 leagues in Country Vic (out of 45) where all teams have had a win, we have this is in Prems, Divi 1, Div 2 and Div 3!
NCFL�s unique ladder | Bendigo Advertiser (http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/4734359/ncfls-unique-ladder/?cs=2854)

[Pekay]

There are some teams in the wrong division, (St George Div 4 to 3 or 2, North Shore lower grades to all go up a division) but that will be sorted out next season through promotion and relegation.

[/url]

Unless you are UTS Div 4.

[The Runner]

Unless you are UTS Div 4.

Placing themselves nicely in 4-5th for the annual underdog flag