2020 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

[bloodspirit]

Getting on the front foot with this thread early this season, after a late start last season. Feeling fired up after our draft. Not confident we'll play finals in 2020 but really excited and positive about our list.


Players

The players who will fall out of contract at the end of 2020 are:

Amartey
Clarke
Foot
Fox
Hewett
Kennedy
Knoll
Ling
Maibaum
McLean
Melican
Reynolds
Ronke
Rowles
Stoddart
Thurlow
Wicks

but, according to his management (I believe them), not Bell.

I'm not sure about Brand and Gray. Does anybody know? Here's a link to the announcement of their signing - it doesn't say: Swans secure delisted free agents - sydneyswans.com.au (https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2019-11-01/swans-secure-delisted-free-agents).


Retirements

There's nobody on the list I can really see reaching retirement this year. Surely not JPK yet? His form has been tailing away but he's still a beast and I don't think we are ready yet for life without him. Plus we have a young list and need some wise, seasoned leaders. Will be interesting if he's not re-signed halfway through the season though. Hopefully the club will extend him on a year to year basis to maximise flexibility (like we did with Macca at the end, although he was older), or is that too disrespectful to a club captain? That said, chances are he may not be club captain after this season even assuming his playing contract is extended.



Re-signings

The priority re-signing will be George Hewett, but we shouldn't have too much trouble there. I wouldn't be surprised to see us announce his next contract before the season begins. Say 3 more years. While some of the new talent (e.g. Rowbottom) look more exciting, I still think Hewett is underrated (even after finishing 2nd in this years B&F). He's super tough, disciplined, hard-working, very reliable kick on both sides of his body and a good ball user who has the ability to go forward and kick goals. He gets overlooked a bit because he's a bit slow and he's an unassuming, quiet achiever. I'm a huge fan. I always feel happy when the ball is in his hands.

JPK I expect will be extended but not sure if it will be for a season at a time after we see how his form is going or a more generous two year extension. All the others will very much depend on how their seasons go.

I can't see us re-signing Thurlow, I reckon he'll be out the door. Most likely the same for Clarke if he doesn't show a fair bit this year. Clarke's main asset is his endurance and he has been overtaken in that department (hello Dawso!) and has new competition in players like Stephens and Warner who I think may overtake him in a more figurative and wholistic sense if not in time trials as well.

For all the rest it's going to be hot competition for spots. We will need to clear space on our list next off season for the new draftees and at least half a dozen of these players on our list will be cut. Wicks and Fox will be under the pump. Wicks may have a smidge more breathing space because he can have one more year as a Cat B rookie (is that right? It will be his third year. Can you remain a cat B rookie for a third year?) If I'm betting, I don't like their chances. Melican has the inside run but can't afford to stuff up with the recruitment of Brand and retention of Maibaum turning the dial up a bit for him. Ronke is in a similar position: has a spot to lose but is under pressure from Taylor, Gray, maybe Wicks.

If Brand and Gray's contracts expire this year then they will also be under pressure to justify their retention. Particularly in Gray's case, I'd be slightly surprised if he left SA for only a one year contract. So I'm guessing Gray has a two year deal. Might only be one year for Brand because he was de-listed without being offered another deal (as Gray was).

Ling is another who we will be wanting to succeed and who has a spot to lose. If he can get on the park and start showing his ability, he's a great chance of being retained. But if he gets injured again... might be a different story.

Great to see how virtually all of our best talent is signed up and no need to worry about them.




Who do we bring in?

Draft

Well, at this point it seems we will clearly be drafting Braeden Campbell and Errol Gulden, both highly rated young prospects. Both midfielders who are on the small side. There is a real chance they can both go in the first round (so we will need to be ready to pay for them) but I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of them slide out further, which often happens with all but the most brilliant of smaller midfielders (Rowell would be one of those notable exceptions).

Do we look to copy GWS strategy this year and get a pick ahead of the bids for Campbell and Gulden and risk going into deficit for the 2021 draft? I reckon we should! By 2021 we will hopefully be climbing up the ladder and falling down the draft boards and won't be so much in need of draft talent.

Hopefully some chance we can get another Academy player in the door, perhaps as a Cat B rookie.

Otherwise, it's hard to tell what kind of players we will need in a year's time plus we don't know what picks we will have to work with. I'm a bit fuzzy about which picks we have left for next season. I think we have a pick of Adelaide's and another of Brisbane's or something and have traded out our own 3rd and 4th rounders? At some stage afl.com.au will put out a list and I'll add it to this thread.


Free agency

The big name, who will be speculated about all year, will be Joe Daniher. Will he, won't he? Will we, won't we? I'm hoping we, and he, will - provided he gets his body back together and starts showing some form. He's a fabulous talent and the time will be right in terms of Buddy getting towards the end of his career with only two more years of his mega-salary to accommodate plus the fact that he will be a free agent and should be much cheaper to get (even if we have to trade for him). While it seems our salary cap won't be easy to manage, we won't have had to pay him in 2020 and it should be easier to fit JD in in another year's time than it was this year (one less year of overlapping with Buddy). On the other hand, all our other young talent will be getting more experienced and presumably more expensive to retain. We need another KPF at some stage and JD has an excitement factor and likeability that will spin the turnstiles if plays near his best. Just the kind of player the Swans seem to love.

I'm not sure who else will be on the market but I doubt we'll be targetting any other big names.


Trade

Likewise, we seem to have decided to cover our needs by playing to our strengths and drafting and developing the players we want, so I don't think we are likely to make any big splash in the trade period.

The two possible positions where we might look for someone seem to be an inside mid or a ruck. However, we seem to believe in our list in terms of our inside mids (else we would have done more about getting some in the two past trade and draft seasons) so I think we will look to Florent, Heeney, Rowbottom, Hewett, maybe Mills, maybe Warner, maybe Bell, Stephens in time etc. etc. to cover our inside midfield and contested possession needs.

The ruck situation is a bit more opaque. We didn't draft any new rucks to replace the outgoing Cameron. And this is a position where mature age talent is often favoured (although KB on record just days ago saying he doesn't agree that you don't draft rucks, as some say). This is also a position where there is a bit of a trade merry-go-round of second tier and young, developing rucks and so would be easy to see us joining in the fun if our ruck brigade aren't doing enough to give us a high level of confidence. Especially given Horse's penchant for a packed stable of rucks.

The other side of the trade scenario is who might go out? The standout candidate is Papley. We know that this year he wanted to leave. Along with whatever personal reasons he has, it's likely that part of the reason for that is that we have contracted him for less than he is now worth. So, most likely, he will still have the same incentive to leave next year. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have recruited depth in his position: Gray and Lewy Taylor are both similar players - small forwards who can go through the midfield a bit, with a similar degree of experience. That said, I don't think it's a given we will trade him, even if he still wants to go. The question will be, what's in it for us? Gray and Taylor are just insurance. Assuming he keeps playing well, I hope we keep keeping him and, that if we do sell him, we only do so for a high price. If Carlton were willing to give pick 9 for Liam Henry I think the same can be justified for Papley. Henry may have a higher ceiling but Papley is a known quantity whereas Henry is just potential at the time of drafting. Yet Carlton didn't seem willing pay pick 9 for Papley. To be fair, we don't know what they would have offered if we were actually willing to trade him, since that scenario never arose.

I can't see us wanting to trade out anyone else with trade currency (and typically you don't get full value when there's a trade anyway - unless you're dealing with Gold Coast or selling Tim Kelly). Of course anything can happen over the course of a year.

Possibly there could be a targetted inbound trade or two, but our needs seem less stark now as a next generation of mids are developing, and I can't predict who or what kind of players they might be (apart from maybe a ruck).


What about coaches and other staff?

My feeling is that we will have no great need to change anything up unless we have a bad year. We have found a place for Macca without needing to send anyone out the door. We have achieved change and freshness by mixing up the coaches roles rather than changing the personnel. The question will be: will some other club come calling for Stevie J or Dean Cox? That would seem to me to be the most likely impetus for a shake up of the coaches. Wouldn't surprise me to see another club target them. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

The bigger story is: could Carlton poach Kinnear Beatson, as has been rumoured? Time will tell. Let's hope not. But, if we do lose Beatson, at least Simon Dalrymple seems a safe pair of hands. Even still, we would then need to recruit at least one person to replace him. Beatson's value to the club is hard to overstate. Not only is he one of the best in the business, who has been with us a long time, carrying significant corporate memory, but he also he does the job of more than one at other clubs. If he is going, I trust the club to be well prepared and already advanced in their work to cover his loss as best we can manage.

The other high profile positions are the CEO and Head of Football, Harley and Charlie. I know they come in for a bit of stick on RWO but I can't see anything to indicate they are doing a bad job. Tom Harley in particular seems to be doing ok as far as I am concerned. Too soon to say for Charlie Gardiner. But I think we will stick with them for the time being and continue the kind of smooth, well-oiled operation we are known for.

Other important positions like doctors, physios and fitness staff are a bit beyond my ken - but if anyone has any news or views, please share.

That's my wrap to kick off the new season's thread. Over to you. And happy new season!

[Blood Fever]

Getting on the front foot with this thread early this season, after a late start last season. Feeling fired up after our draft. Not confident we'll play finals in 2020 but really excited and positive about our list.


Players

The players who will fall out of contract at the end of 2020 are:

Amartey
Clarke
Foot
Fox
Hewett
Kennedy
Knoll
Ling
Maibaum
McLean
Melican
Reynolds
Ronke
Rowles
Stoddart
Thurlow
Wicks

but, according to his management (I believe them), not Bell.

I'm not sure about Brand and Gray. Does anybody know? Here's a link to the announcement of their signing - it doesn't say: Swans secure delisted free agents - sydneyswans.com.au (https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2019-11-01/swans-secure-delisted-free-agents).


Retirements

There's nobody on the list I can really see reaching retirement this year. Surely not JPK yet? His form has been tailing away but he's still a beast and I don't think we are ready yet for life without him. Plus we have a young list and need some wise, seasoned leaders. Will be interesting if he's not re-signed halfway through the season though. Hopefully the club will extend him on a year to year basis to maximise flexibility (like we did with Macca at the end, although he was older), or is that too disrespectful to a club captain? That said, chances are he may not be club captain after this season even assuming his playing contract is extended.



Re-signings

The priority re-signing will be George Hewett, but we shouldn't have too much trouble there. I wouldn't be surprised to see us announce his next contract before the season begins. Say 3 more years. While some of the new talent (e.g. Rowbottom) look more exciting, I still think Hewett is underrated (even after finishing 2nd in this years B&F). He's super tough, disciplined, hard-working, very reliable kick on both sides of his body and a good ball user who has the ability to go forward and kick goals. He gets overlooked a bit because he's a bit slow and he's an unassuming, quiet achiever. I'm a huge fan. I always feel happy when the ball is in his hands.

JPK I expect will be extended but not sure if it will be for a season at a time after we see how his form is going or a more generous two year extension. All the others will very much depend on how their seasons go.

I can't see us re-signing Thurlow, I reckon he'll be out the door. Most likely the same for Clarke if he doesn't show a fair bit this year. Clarke's main asset is his endurance and he has been overtaken in that department (hello Dawso!) and has new competition in players like Stephens and Warner who I think may overtake him in a more figurative and wholistic sense if not in time trials as well.

For all the rest it's going to be hot competition for spots. We will need to clear space on our list next off season for the new draftees and at least half a dozen of these players on our list will be cut. Wicks and Fox will be under the pump. Wicks may have a smidge more breathing space because he can have one more year as a Cat B rookie (is that right? It will be his third year. Can you remain a cat B rookie for a third year?) If I'm betting, I don't like their chances. Melican has the inside run but can't afford to stuff up with the recruitment of Brand and retention of Maibaum turning the dial up a bit for him. Ronke is in a similar position: has a spot to lose but is under pressure from Taylor, Gray, maybe Wicks.

If Brand and Gray's contracts expire this year then they will also be under pressure to justify their retention. Particularly in Gray's case, I'd be slightly surprised if he left SA for only a one year contract. So I'm guessing Gray has a two year deal. Might only be one year for Brand because he was de-listed without being offered another deal (as Gray was).

Ling is another who we will be wanting to succeed and who has a spot to lose. If he can get on the park and start showing his ability, he's a great chance of being retained. But if he gets injured again... might be a different story.

Great to see how virtually all of our best talent is signed up and no need to worry about them.




Who do we bring in?

Draft

Well, at this point it seems we will clearly be drafting Braeden Campbell and Errol Gulden, both highly rated young prospects. Both midfielders who are on the small side. There is a real chance they can both go in the first round (so we will need to be ready to pay for them) but I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one of them slide out further, which often happens with all but the most brilliant of smaller midfielders (Rowell would be one of those notable exceptions).

Do we look to copy GWS strategy this year and get a pick ahead of the bids for Campbell and Gulden and risk going into deficit for the 2021 draft? I reckon we should! By 2021 we will hopefully be climbing up the ladder and falling down the draft boards and won't be so much in need of draft talent.

Hopefully some chance we can get another Academy player in the door, perhaps as a Cat B rookie.

Otherwise, it's hard to tell what kind of players we will need in a year's time plus we don't know what picks we will have to work with. I'm a bit fuzzy about which picks we have left for next season. I think we have a pick of Adelaide's and another of Brisbane's or something and have traded out our own 3rd and 4th rounders? At some stage afl.com.au will put out a list and I'll add it to this thread.


Free agency

The big name, who will be speculated about all year, will be Joe Daniher. Will he, won't he? Will we, won't we? I'm hoping we, and he, will - provided he gets his body back together and starts showing some form. He's a fabulous talent and the time will be right in terms of Buddy getting towards the end of his career with only two more years of his mega-salary to accommodate plus the fact that he will be a free agent and should be much cheaper to get (even if we have to trade for him). While it seems our salary cap won't be easy to manage, we won't have had to pay him in 2020 and it should be easier to fit JD in in another year's time than it was this year (one less year of overlapping with Buddy). On the other hand, all our other young talent will be getting more experienced and presumably more expensive to retain. We need another KPF at some stage and JD has an excitement factor and likeability that will spin the turnstiles if plays near his best. Just the kind of player the Swans seem to love.

I'm not sure who else will be on the market but I doubt we'll be targetting any other big names.


Trade

Likewise, we seem to have decided to cover our needs by playing to our strengths and drafting and developing the players we want, so I don't think we are likely to make any big splash in the trade period.

The two possible positions where we might look for someone seem to be an inside mid or a ruck. However, we seem to believe in our list in terms of our inside mids (else we would have done more about getting some in the two past trade and draft seasons) so I think we will look to Florent, Heeney, Rowbottom, Hewett, maybe Mills, maybe Warner, maybe Bell, Stephens in time etc. etc. to cover our inside midfield and contested possession needs.

The ruck situation is a bit more opaque. We didn't draft any new rucks to replace the outgoing Cameron. And this is a position where mature age talent is often favoured (although KB on record just days ago saying he doesn't agree that you don't draft rucks, as some say). This is also a position where there is a bit of a trade merry-go-round of second tier and young, developing rucks and so would be easy to see us joining in the fun if our ruck brigade aren't doing enough to give us a high level of confidence. Especially given Horse's penchant for a packed stable of rucks.

The other side of the trade scenario is who might go out? The standout candidate is Papley. We know that this year he wanted to leave. Along with whatever personal reasons he has, it's likely that part of the reason for that is that we have contracted him for less than he is now worth. So, most likely, he will still have the same incentive to leave next year. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have recruited depth in his position: Gray and Lewy Taylor are both similar players - small forwards who can go through the midfield a bit, with a similar degree of experience. That said, I don't think it's a given we will trade him, even if he still wants to go. The question will be, what's in it for us? Gray and Taylor are just insurance. Assuming he keeps playing well, I hope we keep keeping him and, that if we do sell him, we only do so for a high price. If Carlton were willing to give pick 9 for Liam Henry I think the same can be justified for Papley. Henry may have a higher ceiling but Papley is a known quantity whereas Henry is just potential at the time of drafting. Yet Carlton didn't seem willing pay pick 9 for Papley. To be fair, we don't know what they would have offered if we were actually willing to trade him, since that scenario never arose.

I can't see us wanting to trade out anyone else with trade currency (and typically you don't get full value when there's a trade anyway - unless you're dealing with Gold Coast or selling Tim Kelly). Of course anything can happen over the course of a year.

Possibly there could be a targetted inbound trade or two, but our needs seem less stark now as a next generation of mids are developing, and I can't predict who or what kind of players they might be (apart from maybe a ruck).


What about coaches and other staff?

My feeling is that we will have no great need to change anything up unless we have a bad year. We have found a place for Macca without needing to send anyone out the door. We have achieved change and freshness by mixing up the coaches roles rather than changing the personnel. The question will be: will some other club come calling for Stevie J or Dean Cox? That would seem to me to be the most likely impetus for a shake up of the coaches. Wouldn't surprise me to see another club target them. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

The bigger story is: could Carlton poach Kinnear Beatson, as has been rumoured? Time will tell. Let's hope not. But, if we do lose Beatson, at least Simon Dalrymple seems a safe pair of hands. Even still, we would then need to recruit at least one person to replace him. Beatson's value to the club is hard to overstate. Not only is he one of the best in the business, who has been with us a long time, carrying significant corporate memory, but he also he does the job of more than one at other clubs. If he is going, I trust the club to be well prepared and already advanced in their work to cover his loss as best we can manage.

The other high profile positions are the CEO and Head of Football, Harley and Charlie. I know they come in for a bit of stick on RWO but I can't see anything to indicate they are doing a bad job. Tom Harley in particular seems to be doing ok as far as I am concerned. Too soon to say for Charlie Gardiner. But I think we will stick with them for the time being and continue the kind of smooth, well-oiled operation we are known for.

Other important positions like doctors, physios and fitness staff are a bit beyond my ken - but if anyone has any news or views, please share.

That's my wrap to kick off the new season's thread. Over to you. And happy new season!

This is a tour de force BS. Agree about Hewitt. Vital player who will only get better
Your post can become a significant reference point for the coming season. Well done and thanks!

[707]

Point bearing picks next year are: Swans 1st, Swans 2nd, Brisbane 3rd, Adelaide 4th

Be handy if we can use our first before having to match Campbell and Gulden. The way the list is shaping, now is the time to load up with high end talent.

Joe Daniher may fall back in love with Essendon, not recover from his OP or be fully fit and wanting us again, yikes, another month of Dodo'ing!

[Thunder Shaker]

Future picks

IN: future round 3 selection (Brisbane), future round 4 pick (Adelaide)
OUT: future round 3 selection (to Brisbane), future round 4 selection (to St Kilda)

HELD: round 1, round 2, round 3 (Brisbane), round 4 (Adelaide). Later picks have no draft value so I am not including them.

We have essentially come out even. Sydney's pick trading has given us three round-2 picks in this year's draft, which is roughly what we got for Jones and Hannebery.

With these picks, how are we placed for drafting Campbell and Gulden? I'm not sure. Will we try to do what GWS did in 2019 and trade for an early-round pick to use before the first bid and risk a deficit, or will we bank a swag of later picks?

[Thunder Shaker]

An interesting article on the AFL website discussing 10 top 2020 prospects. Braeden Campbell is mentioned.

2020 vision: Cal Twomey's 10 young guns to watch (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-11-30/2020-vision-cal-twomeys-10-young-guns-to-watch)

Four of them are tied to clubs through academy or father-son. The 2020 draft will have a lot of players who are tied to clubs in this way.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Thunder
Appreciate the update

Does that mean at next years draft

Round 1 x 1 pick
Round 2 x 1 pick
Round 3 x 2 picks ?
Round 4 x 2 picks ?

So if we finish best case 10th we will have approx

Picks
10
30ish
50ish x 2
70ish x 2

[liz]

No, as per posts 3 and 4 in this thread, we have traded out our own third and fourth round picks.

[Melbourne_Blood]

Read an article about Melbourne and their draft strategy. Talking about Jackson maybe playing some time up forward as well as helping Gawn out in the ruck once he’s ready. They didn’t mention Preuss at all, which makes me think he’ll be lucky to play much senior footy this year , if Gawn has no injury issues.

Depending on how Naismith and Sinclair go next season, I wouldn’t mind us having a crack at Preuss at the end of next year. He’s potentially a very good Ruckman IMO, in the right age bracket around 25 yo and great size at 206cm. Can kick a goal too as he showed against us this year.

Wouldn’t cost much I wouldn’t have thought, and could see him blossoming with the opportunity and responsibility of being the no.1 ruck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aguy]

Read an article about Melbourne and their draft strategy. Talking about Jackson maybe playing some time up forward as well as helping Gawn out in the ruck once he’s ready. They didn’t mention Preuss at all, which makes me think he’ll be lucky to play much senior footy this year , if Gawn has no injury issues.

Depending on how Naismith and Sinclair go next season, I wouldn’t mind us having a crack at Preuss at the end of next year. He’s potentially a very good Ruckman IMO, in the right age bracket around 25 yo and great size at 206cm. Can kick a goal too as he showed against us this year.

Wouldn’t cost much I wouldn’t have thought, and could see him blossoming with the opportunity and responsibility of being the no.1 ruck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said last year before Preuss went to Melbourne that we should be targeting him. I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. I think that he has shown the potential to be one of the leading ruckmen in the competition and is a perfect fit for our needs.

I would love to see us target him again and I can see him maybe wanting out from Melbourne after they signed Jackson

[aguy]

Out Tippett. Trade in preuss. Preuss will be the comps dominant ruckman in a couple of years in my opinion and if north Melbourne won't play him then he should do a nankervis and move to somewhere who will play him.

That was in the 2017 trade thread

[Ludwig]

Here is a table of picks for 2020

2259

You'll have to click to see as the jpeg fill doesn't seem to copy and paste and uploads as an attachment.

PS: Just a note on the system, I find it very difficult to insert tables and sometimes images, even when pasting in the HTML code.

[aguy]

Here is a table of picks for 2020

2259

Any idea why it says invalid attachment when I try to click on it ? I’ve seen this a few tiles before. Excuse me if it’s a known problem

[707]

Read an article about Melbourne and their draft strategy. Talking about Jackson maybe playing some time up forward as well as helping Gawn out in the ruck once he’s ready. They didn’t mention Preuss at all, which makes me think he’ll be lucky to play much senior footy this year , if Gawn has no injury issues.

Depending on how Naismith and Sinclair go next season, I wouldn’t mind us having a crack at Preuss at the end of next year. He’s potentially a very good Ruckman IMO, in the right age bracket around 25 yo and great size at 206cm. Can kick a goal too as he showed against us this year.

Wouldn’t cost much I wouldn’t have thought, and could see him blossoming with the opportunity and responsibility of being the no.1 ruck.

Don't want Pruess, the stupidest person in the AFL, asked for a trade from Norf because he was stuck behind an ageing Goldy to Melbourne where he's stuck behind Gawn in his prime. Dumb move!

[dejavoodoo44]

Here is a table of picks for 2020

2259

You'll have to click to see as the jpeg fill doesn't seem to copy and paste and uploads as an attachment.

PS: Just a note on the system, I find it very difficult to insert tables and sometimes images, even when pasting in the HTML code.

One thing that I did, that seemed to cut down on the number of 'invalid attachments', was pressing 'preview post' before posting. Not sure if this still works, or if it was just an example of correlation, rather than causation; but hey, it may be worth a try.

[Ludwig]

One thing that I did, that seemed to cut down on the number of 'invalid attachments', was pressing 'preview post' before posting. Not sure if this still works, or if it was just an example of correlation, rather than causation; but hey, it may be worth a try.Interestingly, the preview post (which I use a lot) showed the actual table, but when posted it shows the attachment link. I've got some good tables I would like to post, but to get it in a viewable form can take a half hour, so I give up. I was a computer programmer in my working days, so I'm not a total novice at this. I can't figure out how to effectively wrap HTML code so it shows the results rather than the code itself.

Is there an operating manual on this system?

[Melbourne_Blood]

I said last year before Preuss went to Melbourne that we should be targeting him. I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. I think that he has shown the potential to be one of the leading ruckmen in the competition and is a perfect fit for our needs.

I would love to see us target him again and I can see him maybe wanting out from Melbourne after they signed Jackson

100%. Surprised they/ he didn’t look at moving on in the trade period just gone , it was obvious him and Gawn in the same team wasn’t viable. Surprised we didn’t ( as far as we know) ask the question as well .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dejavoodoo44]

Interestingly, the preview post (which I use a lot) showed the actual table, but when posted it shows the attachment link. I've got some good tables I would like to post, but to get it in a viewable form can take a half hour, so I give up. I was a computer programmer in my working days, so I'm not a total novice at this. I can't figure out how to effectively wrap HTML code so it shows the results rather than the code itself.

Is there an operating manual on this system?

I remember that I had trouble with tables in the past. Can't really recall why? But the last few times that I posted tables, I took a screen shot of the table, saved the screen shot and then used the 'add picture' button to post the table.

As you can possibly tell, my methods of solving computer glitches, are more like a pigeon in a Skinner box, rather than through any expertise.

[AnnieH]

Way, way, waaaayyyyyyyy to early peeps.

[bloodspirit]

Way, way, waaaayyyyyyyy to early peeps.

When I started these, I wondered this too but wanted something to talk about during the off-season. These days I reckon: all the recruiters are already thinking about it and working on it and so why not us too? Perhaps a week too early. Next year I might give the new draftees time to arrive first.

[bloodspirit]

Confirmation of the pick situation: Who you should barrack against in 2020: Your club's future picks - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-12-02/who-you-should-barrack-against-in-2020-your-clubs-future-picks).

We have traded out our 3rd and 4th rounders and got Brisbane's 3rd and Adelaide's 4th rounders in their place. Hopefully we'll finish in front of the Crows this season, so that could be ok. And who knows how Brisbane will go in 2020. Can they repeat their success of 2019? I'm not sure. They'll certainly have a tougher draw, they benefited from a very nice draw in 2019 as well as a charmed run with injuries.

[stevoswan]

Is the future of all academies under potential threat?

TWOMEY: Will the 2020 draft be the most compromised in history? - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-09-05/will-the-2020-draft-be-the-most-compromised-in-history)

Some choice quotes:

"HERE'S the early warning: get ready to hear the word 'compromised' plenty of times next year."

"The naming last week of the under-17s NAB AFL All Stars sides for their Grand Final morning clash at the MCG gave an insight into why clubs are already wondering whether next year's group looks like being one of the most compromised in draft history.

Of the 48 players selected for the game, 17 are tied to AFL clubs around the competition as either potential father-sons, Next Generation Academy picks or northern Academy products."

.....and in conclusion:

"But the talking point about next year's draft will clearly start with how many players are already off-limits, rather than the open pool. It's also something that will be a factor in this year's Trade Period as clubs prepare to part with picks (and draft points) or bring more in."

In the long run I suppose it comes down to clubs being happy that they are getting enough benefit from this current set up or not.....ie: it's safe as long as Eddie is happy?:tongue:

[bloodspirit]

Here are the players the pundits reckon we should keep an eye on for next year's draft:

AFL Draft Chris Doerre top 20 prospects for 2020 (https://www.espn.com/afl/story/_/id/28191579/afl-draft-chris-doerre-top-20-prospects-2020)

2020 vision: Cal Twomey's 10 young guns to watch - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-11-30/2020-vision-cal-twomeys-10-young-guns-to-watch)

Braeden Campbell features on both lists. Gulden makes it on to Doerre's longer list too.

[Auntie.Gerald]

i think a very interesting stat to review is that Sydney the last 4 years have only had 4 x 1st round draft picks vs say GWS with 10 !!!!!!

we are 9th on the list of most 1st round draft picks last 4 years

I know there were many supporters on here very bullish on going hard at the Draft to solve our 15th on the ladder 2019 performance......... vs trading in accomplished / or serious emerging already pre seasoned players which is a serious challenge and not underestimated ie not being in Victoria

Instead we have regenerated our list we have gone Thurlow, Menzel, Clarke, Gray, Taylor, Brand etc via trading plus drafted talented youth McCartin, Blakey, Rowbottom, Gould, Stephens, Taylor etc

Determining whether we have given ourselves the best opportunity to compete again in the 2020 (like Hawthorn9th, Geelong1st and Collingwood4th have done on the run via significant trades) is still a lottery for me. KB has admitted as much that we dont know until 2/3 year from now if talented youth can become SNR dominant players

im not satisfied yet either way but i do like that we diversified the draft and trading again in 2019 albeit a key player traded in would have been gold

The ruck position still kills me and I have grave concerns of a similar experience to clearing the contest as 2019 which makes it so damn hard to control a game of footy

upside is that if our two guys in the first draft round or two next year are truly serious players then we will have a good batch competing hard and taking it to our young squad

[bloodspirit]

If we do pursue, and get, Joe Daniher at season's end, should we consider trading our Reid and rely on McCartin to replace him? This plan would ease the KPF congestion that getting JD might cause and give us some cap relief. Interesting that it never seemed part of the equation when we looking to acquire JD recently. Then again McCartin will have another season of development in him and be more ready to step up and fill the Reid shaped hole.

[Markwebbos]

It’s a big if. How long will Buddy have left by 2021? Sam Reid will be 30 in 2021, Sinkers will be 32. I don’t think we’ll be as overstocked with KPFs as you might think

[Ralph Dawg]

It’s a big if. How long will Buddy have left by 2021? Sam Reid will be 30 in 2021, Sinkers will be 32. I don’t think we’ll be as overstocked with KPFs as you might think
What you raise Webbos underlines how important it is that McCartain continues to develop as a forward.

[Blood Fever]

What you raise Webbos underlines how important it is that McCartain continues to develop as a forward.

Nothing wrong with giving him experience at both ends. Smart enough footballer to handle it. Crucial part of the club going forward with his leadership attributes as well.

[707]

If we do pursue, and get, Joe Daniher at season's end, should we consider trading our Reid and rely on McCartin to replace him? This plan would ease the KPF congestion that getting JD might cause and give us some cap relief. Interesting that it never seemed part of the equation when we looking to acquire JD recently. Then again McCartin will have another season of development in him and be more ready to step up and fill the Reid shaped hole.

Daniher is yet to get into a jog for 2020 season!

[stevoswan]

Daniher is yet to get into a jog for 2020 season!

We definitely dodged a bullet....

[Mel_C]

Daniher is yet to get into a jog for 2020 season!
Yes I think we wait and see how Daniher goes in 2020 before we even contemplate recruiting him.

As Stevo said we definitely dodged a bullet. We have to thank Dodoro and our recruiters for playing hardball!

[bloodspirit]

It's official that Braeden Campbell and Errol Gulden will be training with the club over the summer in preparation for the 2020 draft: Which 2020 draft prospects are training at your club? (https://www.afl.com.au/news/267116/which-2020-draft-prospects-are-training-at-your-club-). Tom Green's younger brother, Josh, will be training with GWS. Clubs each will have 2-5 draft prospects training with them. Perhaps we have gone with a smaller number because we are confident there will only be those two Academy prospects that we will consider drafting (at this stage)?

[Nico]

Here is a table of picks for 2020

2259

You'll have to click to see as the jpeg fill doesn't seem to copy and paste and uploads as an attachment.

PS: Just a note on the system, I find it very difficult to insert tables and sometimes images, even when pasting in the HTML code.

My eyes just glazed over.

[Bloods05]

My eyes just glazed over.
🤣 Very funny

[stevoswan]

Are the AFL living in fantasy land?

How 'Secret Santa' could take the draft to a new level (https://www.afl.com.au/news/320627/how-secret-santa-could-take-the-draft-to-a-new-level)

They're calling it a 'draft tweak'.....I ask the AFL, why are you constantly tweaking stuff? Just leave things the F alone!!

[wolftone57]

Are the AFL living in fantasy land?

How 'Secret Santa' could take the draft to a new level (https://www.afl.com.au/news/320627/how-secret-santa-could-take-the-draft-to-a-new-level)

They're calling it a 'draft tweak'.....I ask the AFL, why are you constantly tweaking stuff? Just leave things the F alone!!What an absolutely stupid idea

Sent from my ANE-LX2J using Tapatalk

[bloodspirit]

Foxsports have posted an updated list of the 18 biggest name free agents still out of contract after this season:AFL player contracts, AFL free agents 2020: Biggest names out of contract, Jordan De Goey, Jeremy Cameron, Joe Daniher, Brad Crouch, Andrew Gaff | Fox Sports (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-player-contracts-afl-free-agents-2020-biggest-names-out-of-contract-jordan-de-goey-jeremy-cameron-joe-daniher-brad-crouch-andrew-gaff/news-story/847ee40078b05d7e83e434a521308e51). I hope the link doesn't stuff up the thread!

Some key names include: Jordan De Goey & Darcy Moore, Joe Daniher, Andrew Gaff, Brad Crouch, Zac Williams, Christian Petracca and Jake Carlisle. Of those, it seems there is an existing interest in Daniher. I would support his recruitment if we are confident he will get his body right and he comes at the right price (in terms of $$ and picks). Of the rest, Brad Crouch, Moore and Petracca appeal. If we need a KPD we might consider Carlisle although he comes with asterisks. De Goey and Williams are talented but not priority needs for our list. Moore seems most likely unattainable but, who knows? If we don't get JD, I think we could find room for Moore if he was willing to come. Crouch is likely to be too expensive. Petracca hasn't shown himself to be an especially strong ball winner - I'd be more interested in Angus Brayshaw, but he must be contracted. Andrew Gaff is probably a bit older than we'd want and we have recruited (the so called) Andrew Gaff 2.0 (Dylan Stephens) already.

However, apart from JD, my suspicion is that we won't chase any of them. I think we are most likely to continue to place our faith in the list we have and I am content with this policy provided no glaring holes emerge as the season unfurls. The area which is currently most coming under scrutiny is our contested ball winning and whether we need inside mids. Will be good to see whether Florent and Hayward can start to win more of their own ball. If they can, and Gould can take over Mills backline role, freeing Mills to go into the midfield, and Rowbottom et al continue their development, we may not need to go to market to fill this need.

[707]

JD will only be on our radar if we can get him for free, we aren't giving picks to get him, we have at least two academy picks to pay for.

[Nico]

Bloods: Florent was already winning his own ball in the second half of the season.

[bloodspirit]

JD will only be on our radar if we can get him for free, we aren't giving picks to get him, we have at least two academy picks to pay for.

I'm not so sure. But he will have to get on the park and show he has a real future in footy first.


Bloods: Florent was already winning his own ball in the second half of the season.

Absolutely! He's on track and he needs to keep going. He's great because he's pacy and has a good outside game and if he can really consolidate his ball winning he can become a complete, balanced package, and who knows what the future holds. Anyway, one step at a time.

Hayward is a different story. I don't really him ever playing on ball except perhaps pinch hitting a bit. But he is a super talented forward and it's still really valuable if he can win more of his own ball.

[stevoswan]

Bennell goes down again......

Harley's hopes of an AFL lifeline take a hit with another calf injury (https://www.afl.com.au/news/367625/harley-s-hopes-of-an-afl-lifeline-take-a-hit-with-another-calf-injury)

Our wain in interest in Harley now seems vindicated......I feel for him though. He's been having a red hot crack at resurrecting his career.....of course, it's not over til it's over but it's not looking good.

[Boddo]

Tom Papley’s brother Will eligible for this years draft playing for Gippsland via Bunyip. It’s on the Bunyip Football Clubs Facebook page.

[stevoswan]

Tom Papley’s brother Will eligible for this years draft playing for Gippsland via Bunyip. It’s on the Bunyip Football Clubs Facebook page.

We should snap him up.....might make Tom stay!

Wait....has he got a Victorian girlfriend yet?!:wink:

[dejavoodoo44]

Tom Papley’s brother Will eligible for this years draft playing for Gippsland via Bunyip. It’s on the Bunyip Football Clubs Facebook page.
I was keeping an occasional eye on him, during last season's NAB League. He had some productive games early in the year, but then faded out of the side, as the season progressed. I'm now guessing that he was playing as an underager, since he's draft eligible this year? Probably a promising prospect then.

- - - Updated - - -


We should snap him up.....might make Tom stay!

Wait....has he got a Victorian girlfriend yet?!:wink:
Maybe the parents will help us out? 'No, Tom; Will wants to go to Sydney and it's up to you to look after him'.

[Mr Magoo]

I was keeping an occasional eye on him, during last season's NAB League. He had some productive games early in the year, but then faded out of the side, as the season progressed. I'm now guessing that he was playing as an underager, since he's draft eligible this year? Probably a promising prospect then.

- - - Updated - - -


Maybe the parents will help us out? 'No, Tom; Will wants to go to Sydney and it's up to you to look after him'.

IMHO Braeden Campbell is a way better prospect than toms brother.

[dejavoodoo44]

IMHO Braeden Campbell is a way better prospect than toms brother.

Yes, I was going to add something along the lines of; but since we're likely to draft Gulden and Campbell, then another small probably won't be needed. But I thought I might be getting too far ahead of myself.

[Mr Magoo]

Yes, I was going to add something along the lines of; but since we're likely to draft Gulden and Campbell, then another small probably won't be needed. But I thought I might be getting too far ahead of myself.


Yeah - with the number of small forwards we have added this year plus Campbell and Gulden coming in , both who play generally as Midfielders / small forwards , I doubt we need another. In fact Tom Papley may become pretty good trade ammunition next year (if his form maintains).

A midfielder of reaosnable size who is able to win contested possessions and has some pace would be a target in my view. It wont be too long before both Parker and Kennedy are coming to the end and if we draft with an eye to a year or two down the track that would be my other target.

[bloodspirit]

Interesting article talking about "the five biggest players out of contract this year": AFL trades: The top five out-of-contract players to watch in 2020 (https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/01/29/afl-trades-the-top-five-out-of-contract-players-to-watch-in-2020/). Namely Joe Daniher, Brad Crouch, Christian Petracca, Jordan De Goey and Jeremy Cameron. JD and CP rated the biggest chances of leaving, with JD most likely to come to us.

However the more interesting part of the article is identifying the talent GWS might have to lose to keep Cameron. The author reckons they will keep Cameron and, very likely, Zac Williams. But he reckons the Giants will have to shed 2/3 of Jackson Hately, Jye Caldwell, and Xavier O'Halloran with Jeremy Finlayson also being very gettable. These are the ones we should be interested in. However, if we go for JD, I think we won't get in anyone else of note.

[dejavoodoo44]

Yeah - with the number of small forwards we have added this year plus Campbell and Gulden coming in , both who play generally as Midfielders / small forwards , I doubt we need another. In fact Tom Papley may become pretty good trade ammunition next year (if his form maintains).

A midfielder of reaosnable size who is able to win contested possessions and has some pace would be a target in my view. It wont be too long before both Parker and Kennedy are coming to the end and if we draft with an eye to a year or two down the track that would be my other target.

Yes, I was a little bit surprised, that in the last draft, we didn't take an inside mid earlier. So I would think another tough midfielder is still a priority. That being said, I do have a good feeling about Warner, and I am happy with our haul. I also think that Gulden can play above his weight. One quarter of his that really impressed me, was the last quarter of the NEAFL final against Sydney Uni: in which we made a spectacular comeback. One reason for that, was that at centre bounces, as soon as a Sydney Uni player got possession, they were usually driven into the ground by Gulden.

Although this season, I am looking forward to how we use all the pace we have. Hopefully lots of quick, skilful ball movement, that will leave opponents run off their feet.

[Mr Magoo]

Yes, I was a little bit surprised, that in the last draft, we didn't take an inside mid earlier. So I would think another tough midfielder is still a priority. That being said, I do have a good feeling about Warner, and I am happy with our haul. I also think that Gulden can play above his weight. One quarter of his that really impressed me, was the last quarter of the NEAFL final against Sydney Uni: in which we made a spectacular comeback. One reason for that, was that at centre bounces, as soon as a Sydney Uni player got possession, they were usually driven into the ground by Gulden.

Although this season, I am looking forward to how we use all the pace we have. Hopefully lots of quick, skilful ball movement, that will leave opponents run off their feet.

Agree re Gulden, hence why I think a bigger midfielder with pace would be a good foil for the current picks as Gulden is not the type to get the ball from a contest and drive away with it.

I saw that game as well and agree that him going into the middle made a big difference. He seems to accumulate a lot of possessions in tight which is often why when I have watched him that I have found it hard to see his impact. Its not until you watch a replay that you see the inside work he has done.

[bloodspirit]

From today's Age:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/daniher-s-afl-injury-troubles-ongoing-20200205-p53xwh.html

Thanks for the link but it would have been even better if you had posted a clue that it was about Joe Daniher and the possibility that he may not play the first half of the season. Current status is that he has resumed jogging and it is unclear how quickly he will progress from here. However, given how long he has been out, and that he has only just begun jogging, it looks like it will probably still be a while.

I keep feeling grateful we didn't sign him and still feel we offered overs for him to Essendon, even though I am still in favour of recruiting him for the right price if we have good reason to believe he will play a fair bit and have a contract designed to protect us if he doesn't. Currently it's looking pretty unclear whether that is ever going to happen.

Conversely, news that Jordan De Goey is changing his manager (Twist in the tale after superstar Pie's shock split with manager (https://www.afl.com.au/news/369386/twist-in-the-tale-after-superstar-pie-s-shock-split-with-manager)) may suggest there is going to be a real bidding process for him and so if the Pies do hang on to him, there may be an opportunity to grab Moore. Not sure if we need Moore though (depends on how Aliir, Brand, Melican, Maibaum, Gould, McLean et al perform) and we might be better to save our $$ for an A grade onballer.

[bloodspirit]

Just one opinion (on Joe Daniher): Why Joe Daniher injury woes should not deter Swans (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/02/05/why-daniher-injury-woes-should-not-deter-swans/).

[Melbourne_Blood]

Just one opinion (on Joe Daniher): Why Joe Daniher injury woes should not deter Swans (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/02/05/why-daniher-injury-woes-should-not-deter-swans/).

From Dwayne Russell , yuck. I reckon half these blokes say we should get JD because they want it blow up in our face. Russell surely hasn’t got our best interests at heart , bloke can barely contain his contempt for the swans when he commentates our games.


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[Blood Fever]

From Dwayne Russell , yuck. I reckon half these blokes say we should get JD because they want it blow up in our face. Russell surely hasn’t got our best interests at heart , bloke can barely contain his contempt for the swans when he commentates our games.


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Russell has always dramatized everything. Full of p..s and wind.

[stevoswan]

From Dwayne Russell , yuck. I reckon half these blokes say we should get JD because they want it blow up in our face. Russell surely hasn’t got our best interests at heart , bloke can barely contain his contempt for the swans when he commentates our games.

My thoughts exactly.

Dwayne makes some fair points re: he'd now be cheap to obtain and the Daniher/Swans historic connection but fails to factor in 'he's a potential crock!' and that once we obtain him, his contract won't be cheap.....for a potential, no make that likely, crock!

[SeanM]

My main concern with Daniher is if he is on a big long term contract, it may affect our ability to re-sign other players.

If a few of our younger players have good seasons, then they might attract more interest and larger offers from other clubs. And we may have to prioritise which of our current players we want to keep.

[bloodspirit]

Not fresh, but check out this exciting footage of 2020 draft prospect Braeden Campbell on his way to winning best on ground in the u17 curtain raiser for the granny: Braeden Campbell - U17's Team Brown VS Team Dal Santo Highlights - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=103&v=GGzIDd1R9kE&feature=emb_title). And here's an article about the same match touting Elijah Hollands as the possible 2020 #1 pick: Future Swan stars in Grand Final curtain-raiser (https://www.afl.com.au/news/110464/future-swan-campbell-stars-in-grand-final-curtain-raiser).

[TheBloods]

My main concern with Daniher is if he is on a big long term contract, it may affect our ability to re-sign other players.

If a few of our younger players have good seasons, then they might attract more interest and larger offers from other clubs. And we may have to prioritise which of our current players we want to keep.

Yes I would love Daniher in the red and white though I am weary of big contract players, having seen the effects that first Tippett, then Franklin's have had on our list. Both were good signings for us but they ultimately played a part in us losing a few quality players that really could've helped us in recent years.

I am hoping that we have learned that it's better to have a champion team than a team of champions, and we don't need one superstar hogging a large portion of the salary cap.

[Melbourne_Blood]

Not fresh, but check out this exciting footage of 2020 draft prospect Braeden Campbell on his way to winning best on ground in the u17 curtain raiser for the granny: Braeden Campbell - U17's Team Brown VS Team Dal Santo Highlights - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=103&v=GGzIDd1R9kE&feature=emb_title). And here's an article about the same match touting Elijah Hollands as the possible 2020 #1 pick: Future Swan stars in Grand Final curtain-raiser (https://www.afl.com.au/news/110464/future-swan-campbell-stars-in-grand-final-curtain-raiser).

Thanks for this, Wow! First I’ve really seen of him, he certainly looks like something special !


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[stevoswan]

Yes I would love Daniher in the red and white though I am weary of big contract players, having seen the effects that first Tippett, then Franklin's have had on our list. Both were good signings for us but they ultimately played a part in us losing a few quality players that really could've helped us in recent years.

I am hoping that we have learned that it's better to have a champion team than a team of champions, and we don't need one superstar hogging a large portion of the salary cap.

It could be argued that recruiting Tippett and Buddy has actually lessened our potential Premiership count to this point.....the AFL have certainly made life hard for us since 2014 with the trade ban and dodgy umpiring in virtually every home and away game and the two GF's we have lost since then were seriously compromised by match day officialdom, esp. 2016 (well documented of course).

I love Bud (and Tip) and totally back the club in recruiting them....but I can't help but think that due to this league's pettiness, we have paid an even higher price.

You're last sentence evokes 2005..... a champion team of never say die players. That's the Bloods way.....but back then the footy world loved us. They don't anymore.

[Kumarangk]

My main concern with Daniher is if he is on a big long term contract, it may affect our ability to re-sign other players.

If a few of our younger players have good seasons, then they might attract more interest and larger offers from other clubs. And we may have to prioritise which of our current players we want to keep.

O., the Tippert factor ! Once Bitten .

[Ruck'n'Roll]

O., the Tippert factor ! Once Bitten .

If only it was "once bitten" - I've seen he Swans effectively commit long term suicide by means of a big name recruit a lot more than once, an not yielded a single flag.

[bloodspirit]

Some worthwhile articles about list management:

Knowing your place: List management in the AFL (https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/02/23/knowing-your-place-list-management-in-the-afl/)

AFL list age profiles: A statistical representation of 2020 sides (Part 1) (https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/02/20/afl-list-age-profiles-a-statistical-representation-of-2020-sides-part-1/)

AFL list age profiles: The teams setting themselves for future success (Part 2) (https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/02/22/afl-list-age-profiles-the-teams-setting-themselves-for-future-success-part-2/)

[bloodspirit]

And ESPN's Chris Doerre has posted an evaluation of every team's list's short-term and long-term prospects:AFL each club's list rated for the short and long term (https://www.espn.com/afl/story/_/id/28732045/afl-club-list-rated-short-long-term)

For us he writes:

Sydney
Short-term outlook

Strength: Despite the retirements of Heath Grundy and Nick Smith, the Swans' back line remains their backbone with an established group of defenders led by Dane Rampe, Jake Lloyd and Jordan Dawson. Aliir Aliir and Callum Mills are quality compliments while draftee Will Gould is good enough to become a regular in his first season.
Weakness: Where Sydney fall short is through the midfield, where they need to provide greater support to Luke Parker and Josh Kennedy. It would help if Isaac Heeney is released into the midfield more in 2020, but they are still several high-quality, established pieces short.
Projection: Sydney are firmly in the rebuilding phase after losing significant experience with the trade of Zak Jones and retirements of Jarrad McVeigh, Kieran Jack, Heath Grundy and Nick Smith. Sydney in 2020 will be prioritising awarding their youth greater exposure to fast-track their development, particularly through the midfield.

Long-term outlook

Core pieces: Isaac Heeney, Nick Blakey, Tom Papley, Aliir Aliir, Callum Mills, Dylan Stephens, Will Gould, Jordan Dawson and Will Hayward.
Strengths: Sydney are assembling a strong young core with variety and talent across all lines.
Weaknesses: Like Melbourne, Sydney have the quantity of good young talent but need more stars. What Sydney lack positionally is a long-term ruckman, with no obvious solution currently.


I'm hoping we are slightly ahead of where he projects us to be in the short term. In the long term I think he may be undervaluing: Lloyd (at 26, only a year older than Aliir), Rowbottom (more proven than Stephens and Gould), Florent, Hewett, McCartin. Also I'm not sure we need more "stars". I do agree that we do, in the long term, lack a ruck. Something to be sorted either via trading or possibly via the draft, but, in that case, probably not this year when we will be focusing on Gulden and Campbell.

[TheBloods]

His long-term 'core' for us seemed completely random, like he'd picked names out of a hat, or there was a glitch in his system that only allowed him to list nine players. Gould is automatically a more impressive key position player than McCartin, who played 34 games in his first two seasons. Hewett finished ahead of Mills, Dawson, Heeney and Papley, all Swans in a similar age, in the B&F, but is the only one from that group not named. Hayward only managed 13 games last year, and was probably below expectations in most of them, while Rowbottom played 12 games and performed above expectations in most of them. And I'm assuming he is basing his Stephens hype on the fact he's a first round pick, but so was Florent, who's not named.

Almost always whenever I see a list analysis on us by outside parties, it seems like they don't really know our list, and only know the names that the commentators love, or the best Fantasy scorers in our team.

[bloodspirit]

After we were all wondering how to interpret Kirk being shifted to the individual development role (and whether it was a demotion) while Cox was redployed to something like strategy, Kirk (not Cox or anyone else) has been handed the reins for the first Marsh series game against GWS on Saturday: Former Swans stars to face off in coaching box (https://www.afl.com.au/news/377750/former-swans-stars-to-face-off-in-coaching-box). In a nice touch, he's coaching against 2005 premiership team mate Amon Buchanan, who'll be coaching for the Giants.

[Markwebbos]

I think it’s a sympathy coaching gig in the earliest round of the preseason, while Horse (and his sidekick Dean Cox) are off at the State Of Origin game.

[MightyBloods]

His long-term 'core' for us seemed completely random, like he'd picked names out of a hat, or there was a glitch in his system that only allowed him to list nine players. Gould is automatically a more impressive key position player than McCartin, who played 34 games in his first two seasons. Hewett finished ahead of Mills, Dawson, Heeney and Papley, all Swans in a similar age, in the B&F, but is the only one from that group not named. Hayward only managed 13 games last year, and was probably below expectations in most of them, while Rowbottom played 12 games and performed above expectations in most of them. And I'm assuming he is basing his Stephens hype on the fact he's a first round pick, but so was Florent, who's not named.

Almost always whenever I see a list analysis on us by outside parties, it seems like they don't really know our list, and only know the names that the commentators love, or the best Fantasy scorers in our team.

Gould a more impressive key position prospect than McCartin? I don't think so. McCartin was the youngest player picked up in his draft class and to play as many senior games as he has announces his quality. Gould may be future quality but we just drafted him. As for Hayward, he is all class and it was injury that set him back last year. If I have a wish for 2020, to see Ling get a real run at playing as I think he can be in our best 22. No argument on Rowbottom...exciting talent.

[TheBloods]

I agree with you, but that article seemed to think the 18 year old yet to debut was more integral to our future than the KPP with 34 games to his name.

[KSAS]

Interesting article from Jack Niall (Age) suggesting Brisbane would be a better fit for Daniher than us should he decide to exercise free agency at season's end. He based this on Brisbane being closer to a premiership, having a better midfield and more needing of a power forward whilst we have Buddy:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-brisbane-is-a-better-fit-for-joe-daniher-than-the-swans-20200226-p544oz.html

[Aprilbr]

I read that article too and had mixed views. While it's true we have Buddy he is getting closer to the end and running into injuries. We will need a key power forward going forward who can be a focal point. I am so glad that the Essendon trade fell through as we would have had to give up a huge amount to get Daniher. If we get him at year's end well and good. If not, it's not the end of the world.

On another topic, still no word on re-signing Hewitt. I wonder how negotiations are progressing given that he's out of contract at the end of this season?

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[TheBloods]

I read that article too and had mixed views. While it's true we have Buddy he is getting closer to the end and running into injuries. We will need a key power forward going forward who can be a focal point. I am so glad that the Essendon trade fell through as we would have had to give up a huge amount to get Daniher. If we get him at year's end well and good. If not, it's not the end of the world.

On another topic, still no word on re-signing Hewitt. I wonder how negotiations are progressing given that he's out of contract at the end of this season?

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Perhaps we are waiting to see his performance in 2020. As it stands right now, he is very much a replaceable member of the best 22. The coaching staff may be waiting to see if he takes that next step and becomes on par with Kennedy and Parker, which has been the hope with Hewett all along.

[bloodspirit]

Perhaps we are waiting to see his performance in 2020. As it stands right now, he is very much a replaceable member of the best 22. The coaching staff may be waiting to see if he takes that next step and becomes on par with Kennedy and Parker, which has been the hope with Hewett all along.

I think you guys are undererrating Hewett and underestimating his value to the team. He finished 2nd, I repeat 2nd, in our B&F last year. He fits the exact age and experience profile we need. He's learned to play alongside his teammates and they have built a synergy. He may also be less expensive than some of his flashier teammates. I suspect that he's still building his confidence as a leader and that once he develops a bit more in that space he could be part of our leadership group and drive the honest Bloods ethos.

No chance he's going anywhere if the club has a say.

[Blood Fever]

Interesting article from Jack Niall (Age) suggesting Brisbane would be a better fit for Daniher than us should he decide to exercise free agency at season's end. He based this on Brisbane being closer to a premiership, having a better midfield and more needing of a power forward whilst we have Buddy:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-brisbane-is-a-better-fit-for-joe-daniher-than-the-swans-20200226-p544oz.html

Interesting part of the article for me was the suggestion that we were never really serious about trading big time for him. I reckon this is true because he approached us and we were sort of forced into looking interested in him and going through the motions during the draft period. Bit of a farce really, especially when he is a huge risk physically and is available as a free agent at the end of the season.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=bloodspirit;791625]I think you guys are undererrating Hewett and underestimating his value to the team. He finished 2nd, I repeat 2nd, in our B&F last year. He fits the exact age and experience profile we need. He's learned to play alongside his teammates and they have built a synergy. He may also be less expensive than some of his flashier teammates. I suspect that he's still building his confidence as a leader and that once he develops a bit more in that space he could be part of our leadership group and drive the honest Bloods ethos.

No chance he's going anywhere if the club has a say.[/QUOTE

+1

[KSAS]

Interesting part of the article for me was the suggestion that we were never really serious about trading big time for him. I reckon this is true because he approached us and we were sort of forced into looking interested in him and going through the motions during the draft period. Bit of a farce really, especially when he is a huge risk physically and is available as a free agent at the end of the season.

Yep, Jack also allured JD might also be disappointed that we didn't push hard enough to get the trade done and so he's desire to join us might've now waned. Nevertheless Jack's take of our draft strategy with JD is in strike contrast with the many other so called footy experts who claimed it was a failure or embarrassment we didn't get the trade done.

[Aprilbr]

I think you guys are undererrating Hewett and underestimating his value to the team. He finished 2nd, I repeat 2nd, in our B&F last year. He fits the exact age and experience profile we need. He's learned to play alongside his teammates and they have built a synergy. He may also be less expensive than some of his flashier teammates. I suspect that he's still building his confidence as a leader and that once he develops a bit more in that space he could be part of our leadership group and drive the honest Bloods ethos.

No chance he's going anywhere if the club has a say.I'm not underestimating him. My query about his re-signing reflects that I rate him highly like you. Let's hope it's done soon.

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[Blood Fever]

Yep, Jack also allured JD might also be disappointed that we didn't push hard enough to get the trade done and so he's desire to join us might've now waned. Nevertheless Jack's take of our draft strategy with JD is in strike contrast with the many other so called footy experts who claimed it was a failure or embarrassment we didn't get the trade done.

Lot of fake news in the Melbourne footy media.

[TheBloods]

I think you guys are undererrating Hewett and underestimating his value to the team. He finished 2nd, I repeat 2nd, in our B&F last year. He fits the exact age and experience profile we need. He's learned to play alongside his teammates and they have built a synergy. He may also be less expensive than some of his flashier teammates. I suspect that he's still building his confidence as a leader and that once he develops a bit more in that space he could be part of our leadership group and drive the honest Bloods ethos.

No chance he's going anywhere if the club has a say.

I am a Hewett fan, but I think that a midfielder who averages 21 disposals and performs run-with roles finished second in our B&F says more about the performance of our overall team last year than it does about Hewett. On the one hand you think his value is under-estimated to the team, but on the other hand you say he would be less expensive than his team-mates. His salary essentially reflects his value to the club. If he's really so valuable, who is to say he won't think we're low-balling him and walk out the door like Mitchell?

[bloodspirit]

It's early days but I'm casting my eye ahead a little bit to the turnover of players that will come at the end of the season. I think we will turnover at least 6 players. It could be less - I think there is a requirement that you draft a minimum of three players? But realistically it's likely to be at least 6. I think it might be less than it has been in other recent years because we have such a promising, young list now.

I started turning my mind to who could be in the firing line, but then I looked back at the post that started this thread and saw that I have already given my views about that. I'm curious if anyone has any different views. Or even if you agree. Or, quite possibly you just think it's a stupid conversation to have at this time of year. I see that perspective but I bet our list managers are thinking about it already. And if it's soon enough for them, it's soon enough for me. Obviously an opinion given now is subject to what happens over the course of the season, and a lot could change.

Does anyone think there is any chance Buddy will retire? I don't see it happening, barring severe injury, and I think we will want him to go on given (a) he's so talented; and (b) we will have to count his salary in our cap anyway (even if we wouldn't actually have to pay him).

[TheBloods]

Those I think won't make it: Bell, Amartey, Clarke, Thurlow.

Those I think will have to pull a proverbial rabbit out of the hat at some point this year: Maibaum, Ronke, Stoddart, O'Riordan, Fox, Melican.

Ling probably has a bit more wiggle room as a first-rounder and popular figure at the club.

[Mr Magoo]

Those I think won't make it: Bell, Amartey, Clarke, Thurlow.

Those I think will have to pull a proverbial rabbit out of the hat at some point this year: Maibaum, Ronke, Stoddart, O'Riordan, Fox, Melican.

Ling probably has a bit more wiggle room as a first-rounder and popular figure at the club.

Why do you think Bell? I would have thought Stoddart is under more pressure to show something than Bell. Other than a few glimpses early one season a few years ago really hasnt done a lot since.

[stevoswan]

Perhaps we are waiting to see his performance in 2020. As it stands right now, he is very much a replaceable member of the best 22. The coaching staff may be waiting to see if he takes that next step and becomes on par with Kennedy and Parker, which has been the hope with Hewett all along.

Perhaps he is waiting to see how the team performs in 2020 before making any decisions.:tongue:

[SeanM]

I think it will depend on position as well. Last year the three rookie rucks got re-signed early. Whilst someone like Hirst was unlikely when we signed Gray, Taylor, Papley stayed and Gulden/Campbell looked good in the futures games.

I can see Clarke being re-signed because he can play as a inside mid with decent running ability.

[TheBloods]

Why do you think Bell? I would have thought Stoddart is under more pressure to show something than Bell. Other than a few glimpses early one season a few years ago really hasnt done a lot since.

They were drafted the same year weren't they? So I'm not sure why Stoddart would be under any more pressure than Bell. Stoddart made the NEAFL Team of the Year last year, while Bell's trajectory looks similar to Jordan Foote.

[Mr Magoo]

I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view

[Ralph Dawg]

I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view
As a regular NEAFL viewer, I feel Stoddart is more effective than Bell. His distribution and run off half back / wing is excellent at the lower level and he can also bob up in the forward line to kick the odd goal.

Bell gives it his all and as a NSW and proud indigenous boy, he is a great role model but I just feel his skill level and overall polish is still behind comparable team mates.

[TheBloods]

I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view

Bell is under pressure because he reminds me of Foote's few senior games. Just did not look up to it. It took Bell over a season and a half to produce the kind of form that would warrant a senior appearance. Stoddart produced it within two months of his first year, and then again last year, meaning the coaches must see something in him.

[dejavoodoo44]

I don’t see enough neafl to know stoddarts effectiveness at that level but just basing it on who has been given the greater opportunities at Afl level .

You still haven’t explained why bell is under pressure - comparing to Foote is not an explanation .

Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of bell and actually didn’t think he was that effective when I did watch him but just interested in your view
I tend to think that both have the potential to make it, but I wouldn't be be shocked if one or both didn't.

With Stoddart, he was constantly among our best in the NEAFL: to the extent that I was quite surprised that he didn't transfer that form to the AFL, in his couple of opportunities. He is an excellent rebounder; with aggressive, elusive running and a long, accurate kick. He will also throw his slim body into contests. It would be handy if he added a bit more bulk, but not entirely necessary, if he plays as an outside running back. His downfall might be if he only gets limited game time, behind all our other rebounders: Cunningham, Dawson, Ling, Lloyd, O'Riordan, etc.

With Bell, his effort was impressive last year, when he was playing as an inside mid. Plenty of putting his body on the line and hard tackling. However, his body may be more suited to an outside role and was probably only playing inside, because of a lack of other options. Outside, he has pace and elusiveness, but his kick accuracy and decision making can let him down. However, I think he's a late convert to the game, so there should be a realistic chance of improving his skills. Of course, his downfall could be if he can't make the necessary improvements and he ends up in the no mans land, of not quite bulky enough for the inside, but not quite skilful enough for the outside.

[SeanM]

I think it would take a few games for Stoddart to get used to playing as a half back flanker at AFL level. NEAFL seems more unstructured, you don't get punished for your disposal mistakes as much and there would be more of an encouragement to take attacking risks. But it might be hard to get an opportunity if he has Cunningham, CoR and Gould ahead of him for backline position. And a few players ahead of him for wing positions.

One of Bell strengths is being able to make a late run into space in the attacking 50. So I can see him as a winger/half forward who plays his role and can scrap for contested ball but is able to get free in open space. Then try to play a few AFL games a seasons and gradually improve his ball winning ability and disposal.

Generally with our players we have had a lot of late draft picks. So I think sometimes we pick raw players with higher potential upside and are patient with their development. From the 2018 draft I recall Mcinerney and Reynolds being seen as quite raw and mainly playing school football. From last years draft probably only Rowles was seen as raw, having a great leap and running ability but needing to work on his endurance and other aspects of his game.

[bloodspirit]

Only ourselves to blame for midfield blues.
Traded away Mitchel, and failure to negotiate with GWS for a extra draft pick a few months ago. Plenty of others, but these are symptomatic of ideology driven trading and retention over practical realities.

Considering the academy picks we've had, we would be on par with other clubs.

I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.

Looking forward, we are going to get a couple of players who can play through the midfield in Gulden and Campbell, and possibly this has been a factor in our choosing not to prioritise bolstering our midfield more in the short term. In fairness, we have done ok at looking after our midfield at the draft (Rowbottom and McInerney in 2018 and then Stephens and Warner last year).

It's at the trade table where it feels like we maybe could have done more. I think we could have looked at a player like Hugh Greenwood as an interim measure (I think he might be 27 or 28 already). I agree with those suggesting we target some of the surplus mid-stock that GWS have, especially since they are already located in Sydney. Hately was born in Canberra and played for Central Districts in South Australia before he was drafted and so hopefully would come with a limited go-home factor. Caldwell is regarded as the more talented of the two. Encouragingly Caldwell is from Vic Country and played for Bendigo Pioneers, so maybe less go-home factor than a Vic Metro boy. I wonder if he's mates with either Dyl Stephens or Brady Rowles? Caldwell got 2 games last year whereas Hately got 7 and is considerably bigger than Caldwell (190 cm v 183 cm). Hately played together with Gould at National Champs in 2018 and so they might be mates. The other inside mid GWS drafted also in 2018, Xavier O'Halloran was from Vic Metro and so perhaps is more likely to accept an approach from a Melbourne club.

I think GWS will be keen to hang on to Hately given his Canberra connection but surely there is no way they can hang on to everyone given the list they have and the lengths they will have to go to to re-sign Cameron and Williams after already signing up Coniglio, Whitfield and Kelly. Also you'd think we'd have to give up a pretty decent pick to get Hately. They paid pick 14 for him in 2018. Depending on where we finish on the ladder this season, we may have the currency.

[barry]

I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.


You may be right that GWS werent interesting in trading picks with us, but to be honest I think pick 5 would have been enough to deliver them Green and the other first round pick.
Why GWS didnt sound us out (if they didnt) could be a culmination of some historical animosity between the two clubs. But again, you reap what you sow.
Was the ideological animosity costly in the end?
Why cant we prise away any of these young midfield guns from GWS? They dont even have to move house to join us.

[bloodspirit]

Why cant we prise away any of these young midfield guns from GWS? They dont even have to move house to join us.

It's a good question. Pretty much everyone that has left GWS has returned to their home state - rafts of them to Victoria, Lobb and McCarthy to WA. There might be some exceptions but I think that may be the major explanation. Nevertheless I hope we are trying to recruit from their juicy talent pool. Caldwell and Hately look particularly attractive options for us. How can GWS possibly hope to hold on to everyone. Realistically they probably can't, so we've got a hope. But then the question arises how much are we prepared to pay? What would you give for Caldwell or Hately? Pick 5? Pick 10? Pick 15? Pick 20? Then what will GWS release them for?

If we finish down the ladder again, our draft and trade position will be strengthened. Not that I am for one second suggesting tanking - I think we need to try our best to win every match, although not necessarily at the expense of getting games into our young talent.

[Ralph Dawg]

Good players generally want to play at strong clubs or clubs on the up.

If 2020 is a poor year, we need to make a daring trade or two. A bit like the Lions snaring Neale to signal that there is upside in joining us. As it stands at the present, I think most would be happy to take less and join a stronger club.

[bloodspirit]

Good players generally want to play at strong clubs or clubs on the up.

If 2020 is a poor year, we need to make a daring trade or two. A bit like the Lions snaring Neale to signal that there is upside in joining us. As it stands at the present, I think most would be happy to take less and join a stronger club.

True, but, like the Lions when they recruited Nealse, we can sell ourselves as a club on the up. I.e. we may be down now but we are certainly going to be rising in the coming seasons if we don't this one. I think we can make a persuasive argument to that effect. Of course, if you have the option of going to the Giants or Tigers you might pick them first. But I think we are still more attractive than a lot of the other clubs even if we're not currently in the top handful.

[Melbourne_Blood]

I mostly agree with you, barry. We don't appear to have done enough to shore up our midfield in the short term (which would have been medium term a couple of seasons ago), especially through trade.

I don't agree about failing to negotiate with GWS for that extra pick - there is nothing to suggest we had that opportunity. GWS was always going to prefer to get pick 4 from the Crows than pick 5 from us. The Crows were just at the right spot and we weren't. If we had held pick 4, then we might have got a deal done. BTW, was interesting watching episode 3 of Melbourne FC's 'To Hell and Back'. Apparently they rated Luke Jackson as the second best player in the draft and Tom Green at 3. There was a real risk they could have bid on him. They were tossing up between the two of them and (the doco makes it appear) they went with Jackson because he was a better fit for their needs given their depth of inside mids. I still wouldn't have minded if we had bidded on (or gotten) Tom Green ahead of Dylan Stephens. I guess the reasons we didn't are (1) we felt that Stephens, as a balanced inside-outside midfielder was a better fit for our needs; and (2) to a lesser degree, we wanted Stephens to feel like he was wanted and not a second choice option.

Looking forward, we are going to get a couple of players who can play through the midfield in Gulden and Campbell, and possibly this has been a factor in our choosing not to prioritise bolstering our midfield more in the short term. In fairness, we have done ok at looking after our midfield at the draft (Rowbottom and McInerney in 2018 and then Stephens and Warner last year).

It's at the trade table where it feels like we maybe could have done more. I think we could have looked at a player like Hugh Greenwood as an interim measure (I think he might be 27 or 28 already). I agree with those suggesting we target some of the surplus mid-stock that GWS have, especially since they are already located in Sydney. Hately was born in Canberra and played for Central Districts in South Australia before he was drafted and so hopefully would come with a limited go-home factor. Caldwell is regarded as the more talented of the two. Encouragingly Caldwell is from Vic Country and played for Bendigo Pioneers, so maybe less go-home factor than a Vic Metro boy. I wonder if he's mates with either Dyl Stephens or Brady Rowles? Caldwell got 2 games last year whereas Hately got 7 and is considerably bigger than Caldwell (190 cm v 183 cm). Hately played together with Gould at National Champs in 2018 and so they might be mates. The other inside mid GWS drafted also in 2018, Xavier O'Halloran was from Vic Metro and so perhaps is more likely to accept an approach from a Melbourne club.

I think GWS will be keen to hang on to Hately given his Canberra connection but surely there is no way they can hang on to everyone given the list they have and the lengths they will have to go to to re-sign Cameron and Williams after already signing up Coniglio, Whitfield and Kelly. Also you'd think we'd have to give up a pretty decent pick to get Hately. They paid pick 14 for him in 2018. Depending on where we finish on the ladder this season, we may have the currency.

Based on the compensation we get for high draft picks that end up leaving us ( with more runs on the board too) a pick 30 should do it for Hately!


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[Ralph Dawg]

From what I have seen of Hately and Caldwell, both would be in our best 22. In terms of midfield development, they are ahead of Rowbottom, McInerney and Florent. Both would be worth at least a late first rounder / early second, if not more, depending on what they do this year.

[SeanM]

Rowbottom was quiet last week. But I thought he was really good in the second half of last season. Really nice hands on the inside and a surprising amount of vision with his kicking to set up a few goals. I would still prefer him to Caldwell and Hately. Last year I remember Caldwell having a really good preseason game against us. But did not achieve much in the actual season.

I think Florent has been more inconsistent but offers something different to our other midfielders. I feel Mcinerney is still quite raw and more of a long term prospect/.

[Melbourne_Blood]

From what I have seen of Hately and Caldwell, both would be in our best 22. In terms of midfield development, they are ahead of Rowbottom, McInerney and Florent. Both would be worth at least a late first rounder / early second, if not more, depending on what they do this year.

I’ll give you the first two but not Florent, no way! He’s a pretty consistent contributor now and still on an upward trajectory I feel.


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[Ralph Dawg]

I’ll give you the first two but not Florent, no way! He’s a pretty consistent contributor now and still on an upward trajectory I feel.


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Poor Ollie keeps getting chopped around, at times expected to provide run off HB, other times as a link from HF, then in the midfield. Let's hope he plays only midfield this year and can take his game to the next level.

[Markwebbos]

According to the AFL live stats, Ollie had the most metres gained of anyone (573) Harry C was second (510) with Cumming third (465). Ollie had 24 disposals (18K, 6H) but at an efficiency of only 50% and 4 clearances. Which puts him equal 3rd behind JPK (8) and Parker (5). Others to get 4 clearances were the much maligned Naismith and Sam Gray. McInerney, Hewett, Sinkers and Rowrowrowyourbottom all had 2.

We are clearly a side in transition. Hopefully that was as bad as it's going to get for 2020 and getting more onball time into Florent, Blakey, Rowbottom, Stephens etc means they are going to improve over the course of the year.

[barry]

It's a good question. Pretty much everyone that has left GWS has returned to their home state - rafts of them to Victoria, Lobb and McCarthy to WA. There might be some exceptions but I think that may be the major explanation. Nevertheless I hope we are trying to recruit from their juicy talent pool. Caldwell and Hately look particularly attractive options for us. How can GWS possibly hope to hold on to everyone. Realistically they probably can't, so we've got a hope. But then the question arises how much are we prepared to pay? What would you give for Caldwell or Hately? Pick 5? Pick 10? Pick 15? Pick 20? Then what will GWS release them for?

If we finish down the ladder again, our draft and trade position will be strengthened. Not that I am for one second suggesting tanking - I think we need to try our best to win every match, although not necessarily at the expense of getting games into our young talent.

GWS have been very astute about maintaining a never ending pipeline of early draft picks. They take a look at them for a year or two, keep the best, and trade away the rest. Carlton has been a rich hunting ground because they see that GWS are offering a top 5 pick and cant control themselves. Even though, GWS have internally marked them as only a top 30 pick in quality.

Its the fish that GWS reject, that make GWS strong. Buyer beware.

[bloodspirit]

GWS have been very astute about maintaining a never ending pipeline of early draft picks. They take a look at them for a year or two, keep the best, and trade away the rest. Carlton has been a rich hunting ground because they see that GWS are offering a top 5 pick and cant control themselves. Even though, GWS have internally marked them as only a top 30 pick in quality.

Its the fish that GWS reject, that make GWS strong. Buyer beware.

Of courses GWS work to hang on to their best players but that doesn't mean the ones that leave are no good. The key is to pay an appropriate price. Shiels, Treloar, Adams, Scully, Hoskin-Elliott, Patton, Setterfield, Kennedy, Bruce, Plowman, Wilson, Frost are all decent players. However some of them have been overpaid for and others have not. Swans should know better than any other club the worth of GWS players given the frequency with which we play them (at all levels).

[Blood Fever]

GWS have been very astute about maintaining a never ending pipeline of early draft picks. They take a look at them for a year or two, keep the best, and trade away the rest. Carlton has been a rich hunting ground because they see that GWS are offering a top 5 pick and cant control themselves. Even though, GWS have internally marked them as only a top 30 pick in quality.

Its the fish that GWS reject, that make GWS strong. Buyer beware.

Not difficult to be smart traders and drafters when you were gifted a multitude of early picks from the git go. When the Swans landed in Sydney, all they got were Sydney street directories And bugger all else. Reckon GWS have underachieved big time given everything- and they spat the dummy when they didn't get Buddy as well. Joke.

[Melbourne_Blood]

Not difficult to be smart traders and drafters when you were gifted a multitude of early picks from the git go. When the Swans landed in Sydney, all they got were Sydney street directories And bugger all else. Reckon GWS have underachieved big time given everything- and they spat the dummy when they didn't get Buddy as well. Joke.

Have definitely underachieved. Can have all the talent in the world but a lack of history, of club legends to tell you what it fells like to win a flag, or how much it hurts to lose a Grannie, or never make it , plus no real supporter base with any passion etc. I doubt they’ll ever win , nor for 20 years or so anyway ( if they don’t fold in the meantime )


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[barry]

Not difficult to be smart traders and drafters when you were gifted a multitude of early picks from the git go. When the Swans landed in Sydney, all they got were Sydney street directories And bugger all else. Reckon GWS have underachieved big time given everything- and they spat the dummy when they didn't get Buddy as well. Joke.

To be accurate, Swans landing in Sydney with an established playing list. (not a great one, but one that could compete from day one), but no preferential access to new players as far as I'm aware.
GWS landed in sydney with a playing list of zero (which aint going to win many games), but a large preferential access to new players via the draft.

GWS's tragectory has, by and large, followed that of other "successful start-ups" with zero players: West Coast and Adelaide, who may not have been given draft picks but were given access to SA and WA players.

Comparing Swans and GWS first 10 years is like like comparing apples to oranges.

GWS would want to land a flag within the next few years to stay in the company of WC or Adelaide.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

To be accurate, Swans landing in Sydney with an established playing list. (not a great one, but one that could compete from day one), but no preferential access to new players as far as I'm aware.


If memory serves the Swans were given access to local players very early on, probably because the VFL realised the locals weren't up to much. The exception was Terry Thripp but his interest in the game had more to do with an ex Collingwood player father than a Sydney kids enthusiasm for aerial ping pong.

FWIW I think the injury plague that hit the Giants midfielders last year has accelerated the development of some of the lesser names. If they get most of their team on the park I think they'll take the flag.

[Aprilbr]

Taking away my Swans bias, I think that GWS have managed their list very well and made sure that when they lost a good young player they generally received good compensation. They have been in the competition one year less than Gold Coast and had the same initial concessions. The comparison between the two Clubs is stark. They played off in the Grand Final last year. If the injury gods are with them this year then they can go all the way. No obvious deficiencies on their list now whereas our list has serious holes at present. When GWS first entered the competition I thought that we would dominate them - on and off the field. I even thought we would poach some of their talent over time. How wrong was I! They have a vastly superior list to us and while they are still much smaller than us financially and in members they have made great strides in these areas too. We have never managed to poach any of their talent (Cunningham was a reject from them). Hats off to them. We are going to have to lift to get back on a par with them.

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[barry]

If memory serves the Swans were given access to local players very early on, probably because the VFL realised the locals weren't up to much. The exception was Terry Thripp but his interest in the game had more to do with an ex Collingwood player father than a Sydney kids enthusiasm for aerial ping pong.

FWIW I think the injury plague that hit the Giants midfielders last year has accelerated the development of some of the lesser names. If they get most of their team on the park I think they'll take the flag.

I think GWS have really struggled off-field. And a lot of injuries is probably the result of a sub-standard medical,conditioning and training department. They would need to sort that out before they hope to "get most of their team on the park". They will need to do that if they want to win a flag.

[Blood Fever]

Taking away my Swans bias, I think that GWS have managed their list very well and made sure that when they lost a good young player they generally received good compensation. They have been in the competition one year less than Gold Coast and had the same initial concessions. The comparison between the two Clubs is stark. They played off in the Grand Final last year. If the injury gods are with them this year then they can go all the way. No obvious deficiencies on their list now whereas our list has serious holes at present. When GWS first entered the competition I thought that we would dominate them - on and off the field. I even thought we would poach some of their talent over time. How wrong was I! They have a vastly superior list to us and while they are still much smaller than us financially and in members they have made great strides in these areas too. We have never managed to poach any of their talent (Cunningham was a reject from them). Hats off to them. We are going to have to lift to get back on a par with them.

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As I said, given an absolute saloon passage into the AFL. Only a clown could mess things up in terms of success for GWS. Only thing needed was patience as the gilt edged list developed.

[Markwebbos]

I think GWS have really struggled off-field. And a lot of injuries is probably the result of a sub-standard medical,conditioning and training department. They would need to sort that out before they hope to "get most of their team on the park". They will need to do that if they want to win a flag.

They did at the end of last season.

[barry]

As I said, given an absolute saloon passage into the AFL. Only a clown could mess things up in terms of success for GWS. Only thing needed was patience as the gilt edged list developed.

Gold Coast says "hi".

[bloodspirit]

Taking away my Swans bias, I think that GWS have managed their list very well and made sure that when they lost a good young player they generally received good compensation. They have been in the competition one year less than Gold Coast and had the same initial concessions. The comparison between the two Clubs is stark. They played off in the Grand Final last year. If the injury gods are with them this year then they can go all the way. No obvious deficiencies on their list now whereas our list has serious holes at present. When GWS first entered the competition I thought that we would dominate them - on and off the field. I even thought we would poach some of their talent over time. How wrong was I! They have a vastly superior list to us and while they are still much smaller than us financially and in members they have made great strides in these areas too. We have never managed to poach any of their talent (Cunningham was a reject from them). Hats off to them. We are going to have to lift to get back on a par with them.

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I mostly agree with you, Aprilbr. But I think GWS had more generous initial draft concessions than Gold Coast.

[barry]

I mostly agree with you, Aprilbr. But I think GWS had more generous initial draft concessions than Gold Coast.

I think it was the other way around. Gold Coast was a long term plan by the AFL where a number of different approaches were thought out, and then when North refused to move at the last minute causing an uneven number of teams, AFL quickly scrambled together the GWS option.
The AFL heavily influenced the GC to squander their picks on guys like Ablett, whereas GWS (Sheedy and Silvangni) took a different approach and defied the AFL to build through the draft which cause a lot of short term uncompetitiveness. Whether that was intentional or not is hard to know, as by the time GWS starting looking for poaching targets, either GC had got them, or the existing clubs had tied them all up to long term deals.

In summary, GC had an instant success attitude, and GWS had a generational attitude.

[Blood Fever]

I think it was the other way around. Gold Coast was a long term plan by the AFL where a number of different approaches were thought out, and then when North refused to move at the last minute causing an uneven number of teams, AFL quickly scrambled together the GWS option.
The AFL heavily influenced the GC to squander their picks on guys like Ablett, whereas GWS (Sheedy and Silvangni) took a different approach and defied the AFL to build through the draft which cause a lot of short term uncompetitiveness. Whether that was intentional or not is hard to know, as by the time GWS starting looking for poaching targets, either GC had got them, or the existing clubs had tied them all up to long term deals.

In summary, GC had an instant success attitude, and GWS had a generational attitude.

Some of this stuff belongs on GWS fan forum- orange and white, rather than red and white

[Aprilbr]

Some of this stuff belongs on GWS fan forum- orange and white, rather than red and whiteI disagree. We all love the Swans on here but we need to recognise that GWS as our rival in Sydney, have played the list development game well and have set themselves up for sustained success. We need to learn from what they have done well. I vividly recall when we played our first ever game against them at the Olympic Stadium. They had a team of kids and a few crusty veterans. We won easily as expected but they already had the makings of a great team then. Look at these players who played in that first ever game some 8 years ago! Even the ones who left were traded for good picks and other excellent players.

Phil Davis; Will Hoskin-Elliott; Toby Greene; Callan Ward; Dylan Shiel; Stephen Coniglio; Jeremy Cameron; Devon Smith; Nathan Wilson; Adam Tomlinson; Dom Tyson

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[Boddo]

I think it was the other way around. Gold Coast was a long term plan by the AFL where a number of different approaches were thought out, and then when North refused to move at the last minute causing an uneven number of teams, AFL quickly scrambled together the GWS option.
The AFL heavily influenced the GC to squander their picks on guys like Ablett, whereas GWS (Sheedy and Silvangni) took a different approach and defied the AFL to build through the draft which cause a lot of short term uncompetitiveness. Whether that was intentional or not is hard to know, as by the time GWS starting looking for poaching targets, either GC had got them, or the existing clubs had tied them all up to long term deals.

In summary, GC had an instant success attitude, and GWS had a generational attitude.

Partly agree. From what I’ve seen and from what I’ve heard most young players would have failed on the Goldy.

The culture that used to be there was horrendous. And the off field facilities and admin wasn’t much better than what you’d see at s suburban club.

It’s not just the picks the GWS got right it was the culture and off field stuff. Which Sydney already have in place.

It’s not possible but allow O’Meara, Lynch, Martin, May, Swallow, Dixon, Day etc to start their career & build a club at Sydney now and I’d bet with the culture and facilities that is already there you’d have a finals side in 4 years.

Do not underestimate how the off field stuff screwed up GC.

[SeanM]

We don't seem to get mentioned in news articles as one of the clubs with a list spot open for the preseason supplementary period. But I thought we had a spare list spot.

[bloodspirit]

I don't know their respective reasons, but GWS and Gold Coast had very different list building strategies. Gold Coast tried to get competitive as fast as possible, trading away many of their high draft picks, whereas GWS kept their picks and invested heavily in talented youth and decided to accept a few seasons of suffering while they developed.

[barry]

Do not underestimate how the off field stuff screwed up GC.

Both teams have struggled with the off field, which I think is a lot harder to get right than anyone realises. Amplified in NSW and QLD due to lack of AFL people around.
Swans off-field is also a shadow of the 2010's off field. Still well ahead of GWS.

[Ralph Dawg]

Watched the first half of Carlton v Lions yesterday and it was the best I've seen Paddy Dow play. If we do end up losing Paps to Carlton (really hope we don't!), I wonder whether he could be part of a suitable trade package given that this year's draft is full of F/S and NGA's.

e.g. Dow + 2nd rounder?

[barry]

Some of this stuff belongs on GWS fan forum- orange and white, rather than red and white

I think it would be beneficial if RWO had an official policy on fellow Sydney based teams, ala GWS.
Many of us see value in comparing a side which faces many similar and unique challenges as ourselves.
Others, like Blood fever, want to be gatekeeper of what RWO can and cant discuss.

Everything GWS gets mentioned, the 2nd element post silly stuff like above.
Many people on RWO have a range of opinions on GWS from denial, hate, to respect, and like.

[bloodspirit]

Watched the first half of Carlton v Lions yesterday and it was the best I've seen Paddy Dow play. If we do end up losing Paps to Carlton (really hope we don't!), I wonder whether he could be part of a suitable trade package given that this year's draft is full of F/S and NGA's.

e.g. Dow + 2nd rounder?

You're dreaming! As in Carlton give us Dow + 2nd rounder for Papley? Can NOT see that happening. Can't see them parting with their #3 (or whatever it was) draft pick at all. Why would they? They need him.

[bloodspirit]

I mostly agree with you, Aprilbr. But I think GWS had more generous initial draft concessions than Gold Coast.


I think it was the other way around. Gold Coast was a long term plan by the AFL where a number of different approaches were thought out, and then when North refused to move at the last minute causing an uneven number of teams, AFL quickly scrambled together the GWS option.


Giants had more generous salary cap allowances, were allowed bigger lists, got additional picks in the rookie draft the year prior to entering the competition (the first 8 instead of first 5) compared to Gold Coast. In addition to this, the Giants critically got access to the best two underage players in the 2012 and 2013 'mini-drafts' and priority access to uncontracted players from other clubs. By canny trading of these additional concessions they were able to draft 11 of the top 14 players in the 2011 national draft (1,2,3,4,5,7,9,10,11,13,14) compared to 8 of the top 14 for GC in the 2010 draft (1,2,3,7,9,10,11,13) and, overall, better other players (Ward, Davis, Scully etc compared to Gary Ablett, Campbell Brown, Nathan Bock, Michael Rischitelli and Josh Fraser). So, not a difference of night and day, but multiple significant differences in their drafting concessions that added up. Which is not to suggest that this was the major reason for GWS' subsequent greater success. I think GWS drafting strategy proved wiser, and they set up a better culture (Ward and Davis were brilliant recruits in this regard) and probably had better coaches and football staff.

What are the take aways for us and our list management? One, high draft picks/talented players are not enough. Two, the off-field and culture components are important. This century we have excelled in this space. Do we need to worry this has changed, or is our dip to 15th on the ladder for other reasons? Three, arguably it could be inferred that you need a nucleus of elite talent to develop a champion team although these two case studies are a pretty thin basis for making this anyway unoriginal argument. So, the question arises, have we got that talent? And the answer will reveal itself in time but we certainly have a great group of young, promising players. We will see whether they and we can turn their promise into sustained success.

[stevoswan]

Everything GWS gets mentioned, the 2nd element post silly stuff like above.
Many people on RWO have a range of opinions on GWS from denial, hate, to respect, and like.

Which, frankly, is quite normal for any football fan.....having said that, I am certainly not against discussing other teams, especially our neighbour.....and learning from the way others operate.:smile:

[stevoswan]

Giants had more generous salary cap allowances, were allowed bigger lists, got additional picks in the rookie draft the year prior to entering the competition (the first 8 instead of first 5) compared to Gold Coast. In addition to this, the Giants critically got access to the best two underage players in the 2012 and 2013 'mini-drafts' and priority access to uncontracted players from other clubs. By canny trading of these additional concessions they were able to draft 11 of the top 14 players in the 2011 national draft (1,2,3,4,5,7,9,10,11,13,14) compared to 8 of the top 14 for GC in the 2010 draft (1,2,3,7,9,10,11,13) and, overall, better other players (Ward, Davis, Scully etc compared to Gary Ablett, Campbell Brown, Nathan Bock, Michael Rischitelli and Josh Fraser). So, not a difference of night and day, but multiple significant differences in their drafting concessions that added up. Which is not to suggest that this was the major reason for GWS' subsequent greater success. I think GWS drafting strategy proved wiser, and they set up a better culture (Ward and Davis were brilliant recruits in this regard) and probably had better coaches and football staff.


Another mistake GC made was panicking early and getting rid of McKenna.....set the club on a downward spiral for a number of years. Less than effective administrators looking for a scapegoat to save themselves. Typical of most 'managers'.....just self serving scum. They have a good coach again now.....so Suns, no more panicked decisions.

[Ralph Dawg]

You're dreaming! As in Carlton give us Dow + 2nd rounder for Papley? Can NOT see that happening. Can't see them parting with their #3 (or whatever it was) draft pick at all. Why would they? They need him.
Dow has underperformed. Carlton well stocked for players of his ilk, but still would love Papley, one of the top small forwards in the game. Just a thought bubble, but I would say Paps would be considered more valuable than Dow.

[bloodspirit]

Tom Harley on webinar says:

* at this stage, despite coronavirus, very much expecting the season will be played. Will be very surprised if that doesn't happen.

* in relation to question about areas of list need: might want greater experience and depth in the midfield. We have good forward line. We have a developing backline. "The genesis of our next really good team is on our list."

* Happy with talent coming through Academy. Continues to grow.

* GWS list is at a different stage to ours. They have built a list over a number of years. They have a lot of players in the peak 25-29 year age and experience profiles.

* Effort is a "non-negotiable" at our club. [What does that mean? Brett Kirk described our performance v GWS as unacceptable and that was no doubt at least partly due to effort. What does it mean when the "non-negotiable" happens?]

Otherwise (and mostly), very generic, fluffy stuff. Not so different from Horse. Even pulled out the "I take it a week at a time" in relation to question he could have hit out of the park ("what are the fixture highlights this season?")

[Mark26]

Tom Harley on webinar says:

* at this stage, despite coronavirus, very much expecting the season will be played. Will be very surprised if that doesn't happen.

* in relation to question about areas of list need: might want greater experience and depth in the midfield. We have good forward line. We have a developing backline. "The genesis of our next really good team is on our list."

* Happy with talent coming through Academy. Continues to grow.

* GWS list is at a different stage to ours. They have built a list over a number of years. They have a lot of players in the peak 25-29 year age and experience profiles.

* Effort is a "non-negotiable" at our club. [What does that mean? Brett Kirk described our performance v GWS as unacceptable and that was no doubt at least partly due to effort. What does it mean when the "non-negotiable" happens?]

Otherwise (and mostly), very generic, fluffy stuff. Not so different from Horse. Even pulled out the "I take it a week at a time" in relation to question he could have hit out of the park ("what are the fixture highlights this season?")

Thanks Bloodspirit. I missed the webinar completely. Too busy cooking dinner and forgot!

[KSAS]

Last Friday i heard the AFL won't be rubber stamping any new player contract deals for the foreseeable future. Players can still conduct negotiation talks with clubs, but that's hardly likely considering the AFL is in survival mode now it seems.

[rb4x]

On the AFL website it is suggested that Sydney will be interested in recruiting Campbell, Gulden and Rossman in the 2020 draft. In the likely event that no more football is played this year then I would expect that the draft order will be a repeat of 2019 which would also give Sydney pick 4 which would likely before a bid on any of the above three players. All things being equal (which they are not) I would expect Sydney to draft four players. The question is who would you delist to make room for those players given they will have had no opportunity in 2020 to show their wares. Senior players including Fox, Thurlow, Clarke, Stoddart, Ling, Foot, Maibaum and Melican could all be facing the axe without playing a game in 2019 through no fault of their own plus all of the rookie list would also be very nervous. There might not even be a NEAFL in 2021 the way things are looking. Could be some very tough decisions coming up.

[bloodspirit]

On the AFL website it is suggested that Sydney will be interested in recruiting Campbell, Gulden and Rossman in the 2020 draft. In the likely event that no more football is played this year then I would expect that the draft order will be a repeat of 2019 which would also give Sydney pick 4 which would likely before a bid on any of the above three players. All things being equal (which they are not) I would expect Sydney to draft four players. The question is who would you delist to make room for those players given they will have had no opportunity in 2020 to show their wares. Senior players including Fox, Thurlow, Clarke, Stoddart, Ling, Foot, Maibaum and Melican could all be facing the axe without playing a game in 2019 through no fault of their own plus all of the rookie list would also be very nervous. There might not even be a NEAFL in 2021 the way things are looking. Could be some very tough decisions coming up.

Thurlow, Clarke and Fox, in that order, would be the first cabs off the rank, I reckon. Fox only because we have to delist some players and he's the clear utility journeyman who doesn't look like he'll ever get a long AFL career but who offers a great depth option. There's a chance we trade Papley away, although that might again be contingent on trading in someone to replace him, so that could balance out. Maybe one of Maibaum/Melican/Stoddart/Ling might be next. Could depend also on who we are looking at getting in the door. If we trade or intend to draft KPDs then the risk for Maibaum and Melican is heightened. I don't know anything about Rossman, but Campbell and Gulden are both small midfielders who might be played forward which might increase the risk for Foot (and also Wicks, although you haven't talked about the rookies. Though come to think of it Maibaum is a rookie now too).

[707]

How big will AFL lists be next year? Plenty of talk they will be trimmed down.

Maybe there is no draft this year and the AFL uses this as the opportunity to finally do what lots of people have been calling for, draft age out to 19. Draftees will be more mature, less likely to suffer homesickness, will have a year of playing against men so easier to work out who will transition better to AFL.

2020 is not the time to have a false bounce up the ladder if it ends up a very much shortened mickey mouse season, better to languish in high draft pick territory and get a pick in before Campbell gets a bid.

[barry]

Could be a heap of great players avaible if a few clubs fold

[Mountain Man]

I wonder how we would assess Daniher after playing zero games?

[bloodspirit]

How big will AFL lists be next year? Plenty of talk they will be trimmed down.

Maybe there is no draft this year and the AFL uses this as the opportunity to finally do what lots of people have been calling for, draft age out to 19. Draftees will be more mature, less likely to suffer homesickness, will have a year of playing against men so easier to work out who will transition better to AFL.

2020 is not the time to have a false bounce up the ladder if it ends up a very much shortened mickey mouse season, better to languish in high draft pick territory and get a pick in before Campbell gets a bid.

Good post. ^^^


Could be a heap of great players avaible if a few clubs fold

Especially at GWS. 😜

[TheBloods]

How big will AFL lists be next year? Plenty of talk they will be trimmed down.

Maybe there is no draft this year and the AFL uses this as the opportunity to finally do what lots of people have been calling for, draft age out to 19. Draftees will be more mature, less likely to suffer homesickness, will have a year of playing against men so easier to work out who will transition better to AFL.

2020 is not the time to have a false bounce up the ladder if it ends up a very much shortened mickey mouse season, better to languish in high draft pick territory and get a pick in before Campbell gets a bid.

Languish in high draft pick territory means languishing in bottom four territory. Time for this rebuild to start netting a profit, preferably in results, not high draft picks. Another season like last year and many, myself included, will have every right to question if this rebuild is going anywhere.

[707]

Languish in high draft pick territory means languishing in bottom four territory. Time for this rebuild to start netting a profit, preferably in results, not high draft picks. Another season like last year and many, myself included, will have every right to question if this rebuild is going anywhere.That's if we get more footy this year!

Fitness and mindset will be all over the place for clubs, teams and individuals IF footy resumes. May not be a lot to take out of this year for anybody.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Kirky
The message map whisperer will rise up

[Aprilbr]

Given our urgent need like all Clubs to significantly reduce the soft cap for coaching and football operations it will be interesting to see who survives the inevitable cull.

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[bloodspirit]

Given our urgent need like all Clubs to significantly reduce the soft cap for coaching and football operations it will be interesting to see who survives the inevitable cull.

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Short term or long term? In the short term they haven't been very transparent. I suppose that, like other clubs, we have let 80% of our staff go already but I can only guess who.

I would imagine the core will be Harley, Gardiner, Longmire, Beatson & Dalrymple from the football side of things, both short and long term. Maybe the CFO and Rob Spurrs (in charge of high performance) too. Long term I have very little clue.

[707]

We've got into this position financially because of the off field arms race initially started by the Pies who have far too much spare cash. When the AFL said they were going to tax the Footy Department spending on a $ for $ basis over the prescribed amount, Fat Face Maguire strong armed them into putting a maximum tax cap of $500k. That meant that you could spend millions over the Soft Cap and only pay $500k tax. I'm fairly sure those are the facts.

Why have a soft cap that only advantages the wealthy clubs, Pies, WCE, Tigers, Injectors? Maybe now is the time to make Footy Dept spending a hard cap at a much reduced level to the current Soft Cap. The images of the Essendon coaching box on game day are mind boggling, time to stop?

Anyway, probably the wrong thread for this!

[barry]

Good post. ^^^



Especially at GWS. 😜
We know Eddie will be working furiously behind the scenes to make it happen.

[bloodspirit]

Beatson confident in scouts (https://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/582786/beatson-confident-in-scouts)

Reports that Gillon McLachlan is confident this year's draft will go ahead.

Kinnear says scouts will be ready to go even if they don't get to see draftees play a game this year. Interestingly he also mentions "if" the draft age remains 18. He is also quoted as saying: "There's a lot of water to go under the bridge in terms of list sizes, there's a lot of player contracts in place so we have to know what happens with them, what the total player payments looks like, whether there's rookies, what the domestic leagues look like, where your other players outside of the senior team will be playing – all of those are questions yet to be answered,".

Some other clubs, particularly those who have invested more heavily in the 2020 National Draft, are less sanguine: https://www.afl.com.au/news/390572/future-pick-anxiety-why-clubs-are-worried-about-draft-investment.

[707]

Some players who did little as under agers suddenly "explode" as 18yo and vice versa. Could end up a draft where players picked are a bit of a lottery.

Also the spectre of reduced lists means clubs may not want to use picks unless they are confident of the talent but would prefer to hold onto players already on their list instead.

Future picks, what a nightmare, no more play this year to set a draft pick order, what a nightmare. I reckon they would be better biting the bullet and move the draft age up to 19 and cancel this years draft. But the AFL do like the show piece of the draft!

Whatever they decide, Campbell and Gulden are ours.

[bloodspirit]

Another thought on the topic of list management: perhaps the likely possibility of having to renegotiate contracts will give Papley the opportunity to depart that he has been craving. While I don't doubt his commitment to the team during the season, I do doubt that his desire to return to Victoria has altogether dissipated. Fortunately, between Gray and Taylor and Ronke and Wicks and the incoming Gulden and Campbell it would be a loss we will be fairly well placed to cover. Will we still want, and be able to afford, JD? Impossible to tell at this stage. So much left to play out.

[i'm-uninformed2]

Paps is a large margin ahead of the first four mentioned there and for all their promise, the two academy kids are unproven.

I’m so pleased we held firm on him last year and hope we do so again.

He’s very much top half dozen on our list.

[bloodspirit]

Paps is a large margin ahead of the first four mentioned there and for all their promise, the two academy kids are unproven.

I’m so pleased we held firm on him last year and hope we do so again.

He’s very much top half dozen on our list.

Too true. That's why we were insisting on someone of Daniher's ilk to replace him. And I hope so too.

However, the point I'm making is that if the radically changed financial landscape affects salary caps and requires player contracts to be renegotiated, that may give Paps the opening he's been looking for to leave the club, whether we like it or not.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Paps is a machine we dont want to let go of unless we received two significant picks minimum or a traded player 2 way or 3 way that is equivalent in team value that meets our needs

[Ralph Dawg]

We need to keep Paps. If contracts get re-negotiated, he would have to be upgraded, even if the new financial climate dictates most cop a pay cut.

[Mark26]

I wholeheartedly agree that Paps needs to stay. He's one of our elite players. We can't let him walk unless we get adequate return. If he nominates the Blues again, then one of their elite players should make their way north, or a set of very handy picks. The Blues would surely baulk at letting Cripps or Walsh go. We should do the same with Tom.

[KSAS]

IMO, I don't think high profile contracted players will be changing clubs this year due to the extraordinary season (if we do get to complete one) and on top of AFL not approving any new contracts for the foreseeable future.

[bloodspirit]

I'm not sure if you all are understanding my point or not. Currently, Paps is contracted (for this season and another two). That is why last year when he wanted to go we were able to hold him against his wishes. However, potentially, if contracts are effectively voided so that they can be downgraded to lower value amounts due to the COVID-19 induced financial crisis (can this even happen? I'm not sure - legally probably not, commercially, maybe), players would not have to accept the renegotiated level (even if we offered the same or more than he is currently getting) and he would have more choice about whether he walks. The only thing we could then do might be to refuse an inadequate trade offer and force him to choose between taking our offer and going to the open draft (possibly with a price tag on his head designed to make him hard for anyone except the club of his preference to take him).

Who knows whether this will happen. Nobody has much of a clue at this stage. But the point of my post is to speculate about (a) whether this might happen; and (b) whether he would go against our wishes if he gets the option. Nobody, certainly not I, is questioning his worth to the club. (Although no player is priceless.)

[Nico]

I'm not sure if you all are understanding my point or not. Currently, Paps is contracted (for this season and another two). That is why last year when he wanted to go we were able to hold him against his wishes. However, potentially, if contracts are effectively voided so that they can be downgraded to lower value amounts due to the COVID-19 induced financial crisis (can this even happen? I'm not sure - legally probably not, commercially, maybe), players would not have to accept the renegotiated level (even if we offered the same or more than he is currently getting) and he would have more choice about whether he walks. The only thing we could then do might be to refuse an inadequate trade offer and force him to choose between taking our offer and going to the open draft (possibly with a price tag on his head designed to make him hard for anyone except the club of his preference to take him).

Who knows whether this will happen. Nobody has much of a clue at this stage. But the point of my post is to speculate about (a) whether this might happen; and (b) whether he would go against our wishes if he gets the option. Nobody, certainly not I, is questioning his worth to the club. (Although no player is priceless.)

Are you a footy journo?

[bloodspirit]

Are you a footy journo?

Yeah. I'm just looking for some quotes from a few of you "reliable" sources. It's not that easy reporting 'news' from my lounge room you know. Help a mate out. C'mon, Nico.

[Melbourne_Blood]

I'm not sure if you all are understanding my point or not. Currently, Paps is contracted (for this season and another two). That is why last year when he wanted to go we were able to hold him against his wishes. However, potentially, if contracts are effectively voided so that they can be downgraded to lower value amounts due to the COVID-19 induced financial crisis (can this even happen? I'm not sure - legally probably not, commercially, maybe), players would not have to accept the renegotiated level (even if we offered the same or more than he is currently getting) and he would have more choice about whether he walks. The only thing we could then do might be to refuse an inadequate trade offer and force him to choose between taking our offer and going to the open draft (possibly with a price tag on his head designed to make him hard for anyone except the club of his preference to take him).

Who knows whether this will happen. Nobody has much of a clue at this stage. But the point of my post is to speculate about (a) whether this might happen; and (b) whether he would go against our wishes if he gets the option. Nobody, certainly not I, is questioning his worth to the club. (Although no player is priceless.)


I'm not sure if you all are understanding my point or not. Currently, Paps is contracted (for this season and another two). That is why last year when he wanted to go we were able to hold him against his wishes. However, potentially, if contracts are effectively voided so that they can be downgraded to lower value amounts due to the COVID-19 induced financial crisis (can this even happen? I'm not sure - legally probably not, commercially, maybe), players would not have to accept the renegotiated level (even if we offered the same or more than he is currently getting) and he would have more choice about whether he walks. The only thing we could then do might be to refuse an inadequate trade offer and force him to choose between taking our offer and going to the open draft (possibly with a price tag on his head designed to make him hard for anyone except the club of his preference to take him).

Who knows whether this will happen. Nobody has much of a clue at this stage. But the point of my post is to speculate about (a) whether this might happen; and (b) whether he would go against our wishes if he gets the option. Nobody, certainly not I, is questioning his worth to the club. (Although no player is priceless.)

That’s a very big can of worms to open, could not see that happening, would cause even more disarray to an already wobbly competition.

And if it did it opens up just as many opportunities for us to go cherry picking from other clubs as well...


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[bloodspirit]

I guess, at this point, the talk seems to be of gradually shrinking the salary cap and it's unclear whether it will be necessary to renegotiate player contracts to achieve the reductions or whether they can be achieved just on basis of unallocated money. If it's the latter, it's going to suck for all the players out of contract because there will be way less money in the pool for their contracts whereas the guys who are at the beginning of a long, lucrative contract (e.g. Coniglio) will be sitting pretty. So the gradual, phased reductions in the salary cap tend to make me think they won't seek to void and renegotiate contracts but the unfairness that will produce tends to make me think they will do it, probably in collaboration with the AFLPA to produce fairer outcomes. But I really have no idea.

[Nico]

Yeah. I'm just looking for some quotes from a few of you "reliable" sources. It's not that easy reporting 'news' from my lounge room you know. Help a mate out. C'mon, Nico.

Sorry, can't reveal my sources.

[bloodspirit]

FWIW, Damien Barrett can foresee 75% of player contracts being renegotiated, especially those recently signed e.g. Brodie Grundy's.


AFL Video - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/video/390917/could-grundy-s-contract-be-torn-up-damo-answers-your-questions?videoId=390917&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1586241799001)

I think it comes in a little after the 29 minute mark.

[S.S. Bleeder]

I wholeheartedly agree that Paps needs to stay. He's one of our elite players. We can't let him walk unless we get adequate return. If he nominates the Blues again, then one of their elite players should make their way north, or a set of very handy picks. The Blues would surely baulk at letting Cripps or Walsh go. We should do the same with Tom.

Agreed. It’s time for us to start dictating the terms of trades.

[Melbourne_Blood]

FWIW, Damien Barrett can foresee 75% of player contracts being renegotiated, especially those recently signed e.g. Brodie Grundy's.


AFL Video - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/video/390917/could-grundy-s-contract-be-torn-up-damo-answers-your-questions?videoId=390917&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1586241799001)

I think it comes in a little after the 29 minute mark.

DB sees a lot of things, generally his ‘insights’ miss the mark, sometimes spectacularly. Without watching the video, is he suggesting (like you ) that re-negotiating contracts could lead to players switching clubs if they are unhappy with their new salary ?

I just can’t see how that will work, every club is going to be operating under the new cap so I hardly think anyone is going to have a war chest there to throw overs at players from other clubs.


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[bloodspirit]

DB sees a lot of things, generally his ‘insights’ miss the mark, sometimes spectacularly. Without watching the video, is he suggesting (like you ) that re-negotiating contracts could lead to players switching clubs if they are unhappy with their new salary ?

I just can’t see how that will work, every club is going to be operating under the new cap so I hardly think anyone is going to have a war chest there to throw overs at players from other clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not suggesting players contracts will be renegotiated. I've heard talk that player contracts will have to be renegotiated and I have wondered, if that is so, what are the consequences? I have asked whether others have thoughts about this and, in particular how it might impact on whether Papley remains at the club. DB's opinion is nothing more than an example of that. I agree that he is not especially credible. He's certainly not one of my favourite pundits.

I take your point about clubs not necessarily having war chests to chase other players if all (or even just a substantial slice of) the contracts are negotiated down. However that doesn't mean that Papley couldn't use a contract renegotiation as an opportunity to return to Melbourne if that's what he has his mind set on. And I don't buy that just because he's playing well and recommitted to the club for the season that that necessarily means he's given up on the idea of going back to Melbourne. However, I do think that the salary Carlton was offering him was part of his motivation for going and, if they are no longer in a position to offer a better salary maybe his motivation will dry up.

[707]

Carlton are paying eye watering front ended $ to Jack Martin so big $ to lure Papley may not be there for a second bite.

IF the AFL are intent on reducing the Salary Cap going forward then the only way it would work is a flat % across all current contracts, that is if the AFLPA agree to players earning less in future. A 10% cut to all players going forward would save over $24 million per annum across the league, $3 million per club reduction in soft cap (which should be a hard cap to stop the arms race) saves $54 mill per annum.

Remember this CBA only has two years? more to run. We then get into the new broadcast deal which may not be as lucrative this time around meaning Salary Caps would need to be lowered anyway?

This crisis has thrown up a can of worms in so many areas of the AFL, those left working at AFL House are really earning their reduced salaries now!

[Aprilbr]

My feeling is that Papley continues to be highly connected to his family in Vic and that his girlfriend will continue to put him under pressure to relocate. Moreover, others might pay him more than us. If that is the case., then we should adopt a GWS approach of getting the most for him in a likely trade. It seemed to work for GWS in the Treloar, Shiel and Hosken-Elliott deals. Good players traded but good picks in return. While I would love for him to stay perhaps we just need to accept the reality of the situation and get the best deal? If he has another good season (assuming we play again this season) then a top 10 pick is quite plausible.

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[bloodspirit]

My feeling is that Papley continues to be highly connected to his family in Vic and that his girlfriend will continue to put him under pressure to relocate. Moreover, others might pay him more than us. If that is the case., then we should adopt a GWS approach of getting the most for him in a likely trade. It seemed to work for GWS in the Treloar, Shiel and Hosken-Elliott deals. Good players traded but good picks in return. While I would love for him to stay perhaps we just need to accept the reality of the situation and get the best deal? If he has another good season (assuming we play again this season) then a top 10 pick is quite plausible.

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I think we play it the same way as last time around. We only let him go if we are satisfied (a) that we are somehow going to be able to replace him on the field (especially his goal scoring); and (b) we get sufficient compensation at the trade table. I think this is a reasonable approach and, provided we are reasonable, he is not likely to spit the dummy and he will continue to give his best for the club while he remains with us. If we don't get those things, we hang on to him for another season (assuming we don't lose the choice).

Incidentally, I would expect that his worth at the trade table will fall as (1) he gets closer to the end of his contract; and (2) gets older. Still at this stage he is still young, in his early prime and well worth a top 10 pick in my view.

[Aprilbr]

I think we play it the same way as last time around. We only let him go if we are satisfied (a) that we are somehow going to be able to replace him on the field (especially his goal scoring); and (b) we get sufficient compensation at the trade table. I think this is a reasonable approach and, provided we are reasonable, he is not likely to spit the dummy and he will continue to give his best for the club while he remains with us. If we don't get those things, we hang on to him for another season (assuming we don't lose the choice).

Incidentally, I would expect that his worth at the trade table will fall as (1) he gets closer to the end of his contract; and (2) gets older. Still at this stage he is still young, in his early prime and well worth a top 10 pick in my view.I agree with you, BS. He is entering his prime years. If he another season this team like last season then he is definitely worth a top 10 pick.

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[MattW]

I agree with you, BS. He is entering his prime years. If he another season this team like last season then he is definitely worth a top 10 pick.

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I think his trade value has already increased. In part, because of where we set the market. But also, playing well for Victoria, which prompted a bunch of 'looks good in navy blue!' takes. Also had a very good first game with a couple of great goals.

He's at least worth a top ten pick.

[Nico]

DB sees a lot of things, generally his ‘insights’ miss the mark, sometimes spectacularly. Without watching the video, is he suggesting (like you ) that re-negotiating contracts could lead to players switching clubs if they are unhappy with their new salary ?

I just can’t see how that will work, every club is going to be operating under the new cap so I hardly think anyone is going to have a war chest there to throw overs at players from other clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Simple answer: Clubs receive a new cap figure that is say 70% of the current cap. Reduce all contracts by 30%. No need to renegotiate other than look after Rookies outside the cap as their figure might not be sustainable.

[Melbourne_Blood]

Simple answer: Clubs receive a new cap figure that is say 70% of the current cap. Reduce all contracts by 30%. No need to renegotiate other than look after Rookies outside the cap as their figure might not be sustainable.

That’s pretty much what o was getting at, without saying it as plainly. It will be an across the board reduction, and the players will have to take it on the chin. Maybe some allowance for those on the very lower rungs of pay, but not an opportunity for players to tear up their contract and walk to the highest bidder.


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[707]

That’s pretty much what o was getting at, without saying it as plainly. It will be an across the board reduction, and the players will have to take it on the chin. Maybe some allowance for those on the very lower rungs of pay, but not an opportunity for players to tear up their contract and walk to the highest bidder.
AFL will have total control of this, it will be well thought through and not allowed to be exploited by clubs, players, agents.

Of big concern is the next broadcast deal being a lot less that the current one. At least AFL isn't the shambles that is the NRL, from a distance it looks like they are in dire straits.

[Nico]

Just because it is mooted that contracts will be renegotiated doesn't automatically mean that all players will be free agents. That would be a dead set shambles.

[Melbourne_Blood]

Just because it is mooted that contracts will be renegotiated doesn't automatically mean that all players will be free agents. That would be a dead set shambles.

I know, I agree. It was pondered in another post by Bloodspirit in regard to Papley perhaps walking to Carlton if that were the case.


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[barry]

FWIW, Damien Barrett can foresee 75% of player contracts being renegotiated, especially those recently signed e.g. Brodie Grundy's.


AFL Video - AFL.com.au (https://www.afl.com.au/video/390917/could-grundy-s-contract-be-torn-up-damo-answers-your-questions?videoId=390917&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1586241799001)

I think it comes in a little after the 29 minute mark.

No doubt the AFL will force us to honour 100% of Buddy's contract. ;)

[Bloods05]

No doubt the AFL will force us to honour 100% of Buddy's contract. ;)

Well, we can't have everyone after all.

[SeanM]

The first focus of the plan was to overhaul list sizes. The AFL asks clubs for their preferred list size, what mechanisms they would use for player movement and requests other club innovations on list- size management or composition.

Clubs expect that lists next year will be cut to below 40 and the rookie list is doubtful to be retained, or at least not in its current form.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-planning-a-long-term-overhaul-of-the-game-20200417-p54ksw.html

I worry that if they reduce list sizes. There is less opportunity to take a gamble on a raw player and develop him over a number of seasons. A higher proportion of the list will need to be older experienced players ready for first team football.

B: Aliir, Rampe, O'Riordan
HB: Mills, McCartin, Dawson
C: Cunningham, Kennedy, Lloyd
HF: Hayward, Blakey, Gray
F: Papley, Heeney, Ronke
Foll: Naismith, Parker, Rowbottom
Int: Florent, McInerney, Brand, Taylor

That is our 22 for the round 1 game. Then you have probably got Melican, Fox, Sinclair, Clarke, Hewett, Reid and Franklin as injured first team players or experienced depth players in important positions.

Then you probably will always have 2 developing rucks and maybe 4 first year draftees. That is already 35 players. So there is not much room on the list. Especially for long term players like Barry O'Connor. Or talented 2nd/3rd year players looking to break into the first team this season.

[707]

The problem with a complete restructure of footy is the unproportional impact on NSW & Qld as Academies and the NEAFL are far more necessary for the well being of the four northern clubs than the dodgy NGA's and the VFL.

Smaller lists will mean far far less against the odds stories as clubs won't have the space or staff to nurture long term developers.

An exercise for everyone is to look at our list and reduce it to say 38 for 2020 adding 2 draftees. Who are you cutting, contracts don't matter for this. we have 46 on the list so need 10 off.

[Cosmic Wizard]

We have lots of players who are not best 22 but are still on our list.
There will need to be some major cuts to all AFL lists.
The below list is with an eye on the two academy players we will bring in who are sub 180cm.
Players we can get rid off:
1. Ryan Clark
2. Jackson Thurlow
3. Zac Foot
4. Mathew Ling
5. Sam Reid
6. Ben Ronke
7. Jack Maibium
8. Lewis Taylor
9. Robbie Fox
10 Ryley Stoddart
11 Joe Amarty
12 James Bell
13 Lewis Melican

Most of these players have been on the list for a couple of years but haven't progress far.

[barry]

Any big cut in list size would need a mechanism to be able to train and promote players out of a second tier competition.
For example, from Cosmis Wizards 13 player we could get rid of, Clark, Thurlow, Ronk, Mailbium, Fox, Melican all played at least a few senior games over the past couple of years. So we do need access to this list of 13 by some mechanism.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

The "lets reduce the size of lists" chorus is being lead be the same imbeciles that whinge about the undersized talent pool.
Like most neo-con rationalisations, It's short term self serving, but long term self defeating stupidity,

[SeanM]

If they cut list sizes, it will probably be players on minimum wage at each club that lose their career. So it is offputting to see someone like Jaeger O'Meara one of the high paid players campaigning for list cuts.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

If they cut list sizes, it will probably be players on minimum wage at each club that lose their career. So it is offputting to see someone like Jaeger O'Meara one of the high paid players campaigning for list cuts.
Another odious short term self serving individual, if they get their way, no kids whose game needs development will be able to follow Grundy, Lloyd, Smith, Jack, Rampe, Mumford etc. etc. into the AFL.
The game will be poorer for their absence, but individuals like Jaeger will be richer - some days the AFL is just such a microcosm of the wider world.
It will also do disproportionately greater damage to the development of the game outside the southern states, and almost certainly the women's game.
Such people are clearly the least appropriate to have any say in the future of the game, or come to think of it, the world.

[liz]

Another odious short term self serving individual, if they get their way, no kids whose game needs development will be able to follow Grundy, Lloyd, Smith, Jack, Rampe, Mumford etc. etc. into the AFL.
The game will be poorer for their absence, but individuals like Jaeger will be richer - some days the AFL is just such a microcosm of the wider world.
It will also do disproportionately greater damage to the development of the game outside the southern states, and almost certainly the women's game.
Such people are clearly the least appropriate to have any say in the future of the game, or come to think of it, the world.

Couldn't agree more.

I just went to look at who is currently on the board of the AFLPA. It does include a few players (like Ed Curnow, Jamie MacMillan) who quite possibly wouldn't have got a start in the AFL had lists been smaller when they were drafted. Hopefully their memories are in tact.

Leah Kaslar appointed to the AFLPA board - AFL Players (http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/leah-kaslar-appointed-to-the-aflpa-board/)

I'm really struggling to understand the arguments in favour of cutting list sizes - the practical footy reasons, not the how-do-we-distribute-less-money-while-making-sure-the-"stars"- don't-have-to-suffer reasons.

Each year, several clubs use close to their entire list in senior games. How do smaller lists work in that context?

As it is, young players are often thrown into senior football before they are ready for it. If we want to improve the standard, you could argue lists should be expanded so that clubs can continue to hold and develop younger players and only play them when they are ready.

I understand that there are financial pressures facing the competition but, as with the rest of the economy, those who currently make the most money out of the game are the best placed to take proportionately more of the hit.

[707]

Rather than reduce list sizes, if you need to cut the salary cap by 10%, do it across the board at that %, Buddy gets cut $130k, a rookie gets cut, $6k.

Work out a mechanism/formula for those part way through back ended contracts.

I am really worried about second tier comps and the northern academies and how these comps feed into the AFL clubs. Smaller lists will impact clubs with long injury lists as we all know you can't just call up a player from a lower grade who knows nothing of your game plan, your players and has a lower fitness base. The AFL needs to tread carefully here, get this wrong and the comp will become very imbalanced.

Save money by putting a firmly policed HARD CAP of footy department spending and the AFL needs to stand up to Eddie and the wealthy clubs to implement this. Cut footy departments by $3mill per club, there's $54mill saving in an instant.

Save money by slashing all the wishy washy jobs in HQ, every failed coach is found a job in HQ, mickey mouse money wasters like AFLX, overseas camps for U18 squads, the Irish games, bloated ND with every boy and family flown and accommodated, Brownlow, AA, Hall of Fame, lots of savings there for stuff that isn't core AFL games.

[Mr Magoo]

Couldn't agree more.

I just went to look at who is currently on the board of the AFLPA. It does include a few players (like Ed Curnow, Jamie MacMillan) who quite possibly wouldn't have got a start in the AFL had lists been smaller when they were drafted. Hopefully their memories are in tact.

Leah Kaslar appointed to the AFLPA board - AFL Players (http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/leah-kaslar-appointed-to-the-aflpa-board/)

I'm really struggling to understand the arguments in favour of cutting list sizes - the practical footy reasons, not the how-do-we-distribute-less-money-while-making-sure-the-"stars"- don't-have-to-suffer reasons.

Each year, several clubs use close to their entire list in senior games. How do smaller lists work in that context?

As it is, young players are often thrown into senior football before they are ready for it. If we want to improve the standard, you could argue lists should be expanded so that clubs can continue to hold and develop younger players and only play them when they are ready.

I understand that there are financial pressures facing the competition but, as with the rest of the economy, those who currently make the most money out of the game are the best placed to take proportionately more of the hit.

Agree Liz . The issue of list sizes and the draft seem to so far have shown little innovation.

Needs to be more than :
1. Reduce list sizes so we the topliners can maintain their current salaries
2. Have a draft , no matter how little you have seen the draft candidates so we dont have to consider ideas like a better feeder competition or changes to the draft age (irrespective of the many sensible reasons for this).

Daniel Gorringe put out a great tweet on this where he said that dont let them pick another Daniel Gorringe - seeminlgy he was drafted for his "potential" off the back of being tall and having a couple of good games.

I really feel for the current draft crop - they played a few trial games at the start of the season and then have gone into hibernation . As 18 year olds it would be very hard to maintain your touch and fitness in isolation and now they may have to come out and have an at best shortened 18s season with little footballing preparation behind it.

For some it may help as they may get drafted almost on reputation alone but we continually hear how many prospects either thrive or fall away in their 18s year and for me it makes no sense if that is the underlying truth to then insist on a draft.

This is particularly the case if they are going to limit list sizes as there will be a real possibilty as liz says that almost the entire list is going to be called on at some stage to play so most clubs will limit their new prospects to maybe two or at best three. Consider on top of this that they have had little opportunity to see if their draftees from last year have developed and it really does create a structural problem.

Damian Barrett did a podcast where his only arguments against lifting the draft age seemed to be that some draftees were ready at 18 to play seniors (ie Sam Walsh was ready so we shouldnt wait a year to see him play) and that clubs may game the draft (by encouraging players to fake injury and ofeerring them jobs???) . Both seem to me to be pretty weak arguments but as he is podcasting on AFLs feed , I assume the propaganda machine of the AFL has asked him to start justifying their stupid decisions.

[Boddo]

On the list size cut I remember the reduced list size the WCE had when admitted to the VFL. It was a terrible situation where some games they barely had a side from their available players and played half fit players.

IMO it probably cost them a finals birth in their first season.

I’m with Liz and a few others in that you cut the salary cap and everybody gets a % paycut.

As an example if you cut list sizes does Kirk, Papley, Schneider etc ever get a game.

The killer with percentage cuts across the board is once this happens every single player has to agree or the contract is void or remains in place. Will a player like papley use this to get to Carlton?

[707]

AFL won't allow renegotiating of contracts to be used as a loophole to change clubs. All contracts are voided and new ones across the league at a lesser % replace them.

[Boddo]

AFL won't allow renegotiating of contracts to be used as a loophole to change clubs. All contracts are voided and new ones across the league at a lesser % replace them.

You can’t just say sorry boys all bets are off and this is what’s happening.

I understand the AFL wouldn’t allow it but lawfully they don’t get a say. By the letter of the law unless the player agrees to the cut the club are forced to pay that wage, if they don’t they’ve reneged on the contract thus open to being forced to pay a financial settlement. Thus the contract does not exist.

That’s why I said “will a player use it”. Yes I’d say unlikely but it was also unlikely that Silvio Foschini would walk out of Sydney and play for St Kilda the next week. Just like Brian Adamson who did the same thing before Foschini, he took West Perth to the Supreme Court to get to Norwood.

Australian Football - Brian Adamson - Player Bio (https://australianfootball.com/players/player/brian%2Badamson/103)

[Legs Akimbo]

Rather than reduce list sizes, if you need to cut the salary cap by 10%, do it across the board at that %, Buddy gets cut $130k, a rookie gets cut, $6k.p

But the value of money does not grow linearly. What is 10 percent to a billionaire versus someone on the dole? That's the definition of regressive and why tax rates increase with income.

[Markwebbos]

But the value of money does not grow linearly. What is 10 percent to a billionaire versus someone on the dole? That's the definition of regressive and why tax rates increase with income.

It would make sense for any pay cuts to be progressive not flat, so rookie salary stays the same and superstars take the biggest hit.

Unions are expert at negotiating away the wages and conditions of their members.

[bloodspirit]

Apart from the potential reduction in list sizes, there is talk about a very substantial reduction (perhaps 40%) in the soft cap. I think this refers to 2021 but perhaps the cuts will start sooner than that. It seems that this kind of reduction will be achieved by a combination (1) staff taking pay cuts; and (2) cutting staff.

Is anyone game to guess which staff will be cut? I'm not. But possibly I'm willing to approach it the other way round and try to assemble a list of positions/people we can't afford to lose:

CEO/Tom Harley
Head of Football/Charlie Gardiner
Head Coach/John Longmire
List manager/Kinnear Beatson
Head of Recruiting/Simon Dalrymple
Head of fitness (performance?)/Rob Spurrs
Head of Welfare/Dennis Carroll
Head Physio/Matt (?) Cameron
Club Doctor/Tom Cross
Psychologists/Currently Suzie Rhydderch and Grant Brecht are contracted to do this - I don't think they are 'employed' - rather the Swans are among their clients. Maybe their roles could be reduced.
Dietitian/Elise Anderson and Chef/Courtney Ralston (part-time)
Assistant coaches - but which ones?? Currently we have: John Blakey, Brett Kirk, Steve Johnson, Tadgh Kennelly, Dean Cox, Jarrod McVeigh, Jeremy Laidler, Lloyd Perris. Is that all of them? Can they all survive? Probably not. Which are the first cabs off the rank? This is perhaps the most fascinating personnel issue for mine.

I guess various of the more junior staff in every department will be among the first to be cut. We'll probably have to prune the number physios, trainers, recruiters, coaches, stats crunchers etc. etc.

Anyone willing to be braver than me and tip names that will be out the door? Or other comments?

[sprite]

If we are to reduce coaches my choices would be Kirk, Perris and Laidler. Have Macca and Tadgh run reserves.

[707]

Premiership hero Marty Mattner cut by Crows so hard cull starting at other clubs

[bloodspirit]

If we are to reduce coaches my choices would be Kirk, Perris and Laidler. Have Macca and Tadgh run reserves.

Thank you for being brave enough to name names.

That said, I have to ask, what is your assessment based on, particularly for Kirk? Kirk is relatively senior and experienced and he is part of the Bloods ethos and was a spritual talisman for the club during his playing days. He has high level coaching qualifications and has spent years training at a different club before returning to us. Potentially he is the kind of guy we want, who has ties to Sydney and who is deeply loyal to the club. I think a negative assessment must be based on (a) his association with Ross Lyon; and (b) the fact that he was transferred from coaching midfield to individual player development over the last off-season. Potentially this could indicate he didn't excel in his more strategic/tactical role but that is really an assumption with no firm basis. Also, I suspect (not meaning for you necessarily, sprite) it implies a devaluing of the development of individual players, which I think we are prone to doing - but should we?

I watched one of those sessions of Damien Barrett and Ross Lyon talking to each other on afl.com.au (I know, I know, neither are our favourite people). Lyon divided coaching into mechanical and dynamic aspects. "Mechanical" seemed to be about tactics and strategy; "dynamic" seemed to be more about team morale and cohesion and getting the most out of the personnel. On this forum and elsewhere I think there is a tendency to focus on the harder-edged 'mechanical' stuff and to devalue the 'dynamic' (for want of better labels). However, I think both are important and there is more growth and progress to be made in the softer 'dynamic' arts. I think Richmond are a team that have flourished on the dynamic side of things and that has been an important part of their recent success.

***

A completely different point that I wanted to make earlier too, and this applies both to playing lists and to other staff: we have to recognise that while we may fancy some of our own, there will be a great opportunity to pick up some really talented people that other clubs have cut loose because they, like us, can't keep everybody. So, maybe we will need to be prepared to cut someone good or promising because there is an opportunity to get someone even better! Also some people may be cut loose because they are on inflated wages and it may be possible to pick them up more cheaply. Some of these people may currently be working in entirely different industries that are even more heavily impacted by the pandemic than footy.

[Nico]

What if the assistant coaches take a pay cut in the short term to keep the team together.

[Velour&Ruffles]

Thank you for being brave enough to name names.

That said, I have to ask, what is your assessment based on, particularly for Kirk? Kirk is relatively senior and experienced and he is part of the Bloods ethos and was a spritual talisman for the club during his playing days. He has high level coaching qualifications and has spent years training at a different club before returning to us. Potentially he is the kind of guy we want, who has ties to Sydney and who is deeply loyal to the club. I think a negative assessment must be based on (a) his association with Ross Lyon; and (b) the fact that he was transferred from coaching midfield to individual player development over the last off-season. Potentially this could indicate he didn't excel in his more strategic/tactical role but that is really an assumption with no firm basis. Also, I suspect (not meaning for you necessarily, sprite) it implies a devaluing of the development of individual players, which I think we are prone to doing - but should we?


Kirk is the last one I would cut. He of all people knows what it takes to become an elite player despite being blessed with very mediocre talent. That's who I want coaching my players.

Also, responsible for perhaps the single most important coaching moment in the history of our football club.

Pretty well qualified in my view.

[Blood Fever]

Kirk is the last one I would cut. He of all people knows what it takes to become an elite player despite being blessed with very mediocre talent. That's who I want coaching my players.

Also, responsible for perhaps the single most important coaching moment in the history of our football club.

Pretty well qualified in my view.

Agree with this. People have short memories. Transcendent figure in the history of the club.

[dimelb]

Agree with both of the above. Kirk is the one mainly responsible for coming up with The Bloods. Enough said.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Agree with both of the above. Kirk is the one mainly responsible for coming up with The Bloods. Enough said.
I thought that was Stewie Maxfield?

[Boddo]

I thought that was Stewie Maxfield?

+1

How Sydney Swans built The Bloods culture - AFL Players (http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/how-sydney-swans-built-the-bloods-culture/)

[Mr Magoo]

Really impossible to make a call on who is any good as a coach unless your coached by them / coached with them.

Perception is a wonderful thing but often misleading. For all I know Laidler may be a way better coach than all of them but because we perceive him as a battler of a player we somehow believe he couldnt be as good a coach which quite frankly is rubbish. Kirky is perceived as a spiritual leader of the club and one of architects behind the bloods ethos but then he may not be as good tactically or have real foresight into the game. In any respect hard to say who should go.

Highly likely that in any redundancy situation your first work out who you cannot do without, who you were looking for an excuse to get rid off and then it comes down to things like immediate needs, tenure and even who you genuinely like / dislike .

[Blood Fever]

Really impossible to make a call on who is any good as a coach unless your coached by them / coached with them.

Perception is a wonderful thing but often misleading. For all I know Laidler may be a way better coach than all of them but because we perceive him as a battler of a player we somehow believe he couldnt be as good a coach which quite frankly is rubbish. Kirky is perceived as a spiritual leader of the club and one of architects behind the bloods ethos but then he may not be as good tactically or have real foresight into the game. In any respect hard to say who should go.

Highly likely that in any redundancy situation your first work out who you cannot do without, who you were looking for an excuse to get rid off and then it comes down to things like immediate needs, tenure and even who you genuinely like / dislike .

Clear sighted post Mr M

[dimelb]

I thought that was Stewie Maxfield?

Stewie played an immensely import role in his time with us, but the article doesn't actually say he came up with the phrase "The Bloods".

I recall reading about Kirk questioning what the club had been called in the decades before the move to Sydney, and someone (sorry, I can't recall who responded using the term) said "The Bloods", and Kirky jumped on it and said it was a great phrase and that's what we ought to use.

I apologise if I've got it wrong, but that's what I recall reading.

[Boddo]

How the 'Bloods' culture made Nick Davis a hero and won Sydney a flag - Jude Bolton (https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/17600029/how-bloods-culture-made-nick-davis-hero-won-sydney-flag-jude-bolton)

Sydney Swans | Leading Teams (https://www.leadingteams.net.au/project/sydney-swans/)

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/exclusive-book-extract-the-rise-and-rise-of-the-bloods-brothers-how-the-sydney-swans-dominated-a-decade-of-afl/news-story/0949ce23fa40730c6db8f430bf6e2dfe)

“Players came and went but the message was passed on. It started with Stuart Maxfield, who was elected captain in 2003, and lived on in Kirk and Barry Hall, Jude Bolton and Leo Barry, Ben Mathews and their brethren. By the time Kieren Jack and Sam Reid and Lewis Jetta arrived at the club, the message permeated the club. They became Bloods.”

None of this is to say Kirk was any less important than Maxfield but everything you read is Maxfield starting it and Kirk carrying the baton. IMO one is not anymore important than the other. If Maxfield started it but other players like Kirk didn’t continue it going forward it dies there n then.

[Markwebbos]

Objection! Facts have no place on RWO

[Ralph Dawg]

So Goddard reckons Daniher is almost a lock for us in 2021?

[Blood Fever]

So Goddard reckons Daniher is almost a lock for us in 2021?

Wouldn't know

[Markwebbos]

So Goddard reckons Daniher is almost a lock for us in 2021?

I read that in the Hun too. I’d love a fit JD at the Swans

[Blood Fever]

I read that in the Hun too. I’d love a fit JD at the Swans

Would leave well alone

[Markwebbos]

Would leave well alone

He could be the next Kurt Tippett

[Blood Fever]

He could be the next Kurt Tippett

Much more injury prone than even Kurt!

[stevoswan]

Would leave well alone

Me too....as MW hints.....Tippett mk 2.:frown

Even if he gets fit, he'll relapse just when we need him most and it will be 'expensive liability' time.....and then Barry will complain about it for years. Years I tell ya!!

[barry]

Me too....as MW hints.....Tippett mk 2.:frown

Even if he gets fit, he'll relapse just when we need him most and it will be 'expensive liability' time.....and then Barry will complain about it for years. Years I tell ya!!

I was actually one of the few here who supported tippet through the journey.
JD is free, so why not?

[barry]

And to prove it here is my last post in the epic tippet thread:
"Good call Meg. He was a gun. And ordinary players dont get 459 pages of RWO discussion."

(Point made, the rest is offensive and unnecessary and has been deleted.)

[SeanM]

I would rather not sign Daniher given the uncertainty over list sizes, salary cap and the club's financial position. Free agents generally have big contracts. I would rather leave space in the salary cap in case it gets reduced and then struggle to retain the players we have.

[Captain]

Getting Daniher for free would be amazing. Perfect replacement for Buddy.

[TheBloods]

And to prove it here is my last post in the epic tippet thread:
"Good call Meg. He was a gun. And ordinary players dont get 459 pages of RWO discussion."

(Point made, the rest is offensive and unnecessary and has been deleted.)

I would've thought the opposite. If you're above ordinary, there's not much to discuss is there? There aren't pages and pages of discussion about Buddy, Kennedy, Parker, Rampe etc.

[Ralph Dawg]

With pressure on salary caps, maybe we could get Daniher for a reasonable price. Injury prone and hasn't played in nearly 2 years. There may be little interest in him by season's end. Certainly wouldn't want to pay top dollar for him though.

[Velour&Ruffles]

I read that in the Hun too. I’d love a fit JD at the Swans

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a fit JD. He exists only in our fantasies.

[bloodspirit]

I'm in favour of recruiting JD, with a couple of caveats: 1. he's fit; and 2. the price is right. He should come relatively cheap both in draft and salary terms given both his recent injury history and the cuts with the pandemic etc. It's a gamble but a gamble worth taking. Can also structure the contract to reflect the amount he actually plays.

[Markwebbos]

I'm in favour of recruiting JD, with a couple of caveats: 1. he's fit; and 2. the price is right. He should come relatively cheap both in draft and salary terms given both his recent injury history and the cuts with the pandemic etc. It's a gamble but a gamble worth taking. Can also structure the contract to reflect the amount he actually plays.

He’s a RFA so presumably we’d have to make an offer that the Bombers are unwilling to match. Which might make it difficult to get him on the cheap. He could threaten to walk.

[Cosmic Wizard]

Braeden Campbell highlights looks really good, especially that goal on the run from 55 meters out at the beginning of the AFL video.

What we need big time.

Screw DH, why even take the risk on a player who has so many issues and may cost us so much money and/or draft picks.

Lets go to the draft.

[Blood Fever]

Braeden Campbell highlights looks really good, especially that goal on the run from 55 meters out at the beginning of the AFL video.

What we need big time.

Screw DH, why even take the risk on a player who has so many issues and may cost us so much money and/or draft picks.

Lets go to the draft.

Agree. He's no Barry Hall who was incredibly durable and effective for most of his time with us.

[Boddo]

Braeden Campbell highlights looks really good, especially that goal on the run from 55 meters out at the beginning of the AFL video.

What we need big time.

Screw DH, why even take the risk on a player who has so many issues and may cost us so much money and/or draft picks.

Lets go to the draft.

If your going to the draft who do you propose to draft?

[Markwebbos]

Braeden Campbell highlights looks really good, especially that goal on the run from 55 meters out at the beginning of the AFL video.

What we need big time.

Screw DH, why even take the risk on a player who has so many issues and may cost us so much money and/or draft picks.

Lets go to the draft.

It’s not an either or though, surely? And JD not going to cost us draft picks. He would chew up salary cap though.

[Markwebbos]

SEN lists each clubs biggest draft bust of the 21st century. Ours they say is Patrick Vezpremi.

The biggest draft bust from all 18 AFL teams this century (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/05/13/the-biggest-draft-bust-from-all-18-teams-this-century/)

[Cyril] Rioli, Brad Ebert, Robbie Tarrant, Callan Ward, Harry Taylor, Easton Wood, Cale Hooker, Jack Steven and Taylor Walker were all taken after Veszpremi in that same draft.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

SEN lists each clubs biggest draft bust of the 21st century. Ours they say is Patrick Vezpremi.

The biggest draft bust from all 18 AFL teams this century (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/05/13/the-biggest-draft-bust-from-all-18-teams-this-century/)

[Cyril] Rioli, Brad Ebert, Robbie Tarrant, Callan Ward, Harry Taylor, Easton Wood, Cale Hooker, Jack Steven and Taylor Walker were all taken after Veszpremi in that same draft.
I think Taylor Walker was an Adelaide NSW scholarship pick, so he wasn't an option. But picking Vesper instead of Callan "Grand-son-of-the-Gunn" Ward was a very strange and poor decision.

[707]

Talk about Salary Cap being cut by $2mill, that put a spanner in the JD works.

I am very nervous about the proposed cuts to playing lists, the structure of second tier comps, the massive cut to footy departments.

If the AFL wants to cut costs, take a hatchet to AFL HQ, seems every failed coach gets a job in there with some stupid title and while they're at it, cut the salaries in half and they'll still be getting way more than they could outside of AFL HQ. Severely downsize and cost cut onall those gala puff events, leave playing lists in tact.

A scary exercise is to try and get our list down to 35 next year given we'll take at least two or three in the ND. We'll be cutting a number of players I'd really like to retain :-(

AFL has lost the plot.

[Mark26]

Braeden Campbell highlights looks really good, especially that goal on the run from 55 meters out at the beginning of the AFL video.

What we need big time.

Screw DH, why even take the risk on a player who has so many issues and may cost us so much money and/or draft picks.

Lets go to the draft.

I agree that we need to focus on prioritising the future. For me that's Gulden and Campbell in this draft. There's a good recent interview which runs for about 15mins between Campbell and Cal Twoomey. Even though he's finished school, he still sounds like a kid doing his HSC / VCE. Sometimes I forget how green these lads are when they get recruited! Still in their formative years, bless them.

[dejavoodoo44]

Talk about Salary Cap being cut by $2mill, that put a spanner in the JD works.

I am very nervous about the proposed cuts to playing lists, the structure of second tier comps, the massive cut to footy departments.

If the AFL wants to cut costs, take a hatchet to AFL HQ, seems every failed coach gets a job in there with some stupid title and while they're at it, cut the salaries in half and they'll still be getting way more than they could outside of AFL HQ. Severely downsize and cost cut onall those gala puff events, leave playing lists in tact.

A scary exercise is to try and get our list down to 35 next year given we'll take at least two or three in the ND. We'll be cutting a number of players I'd really like to retain :-(

AFL has lost the plot.

One cost saving measure that I would like to see, is not to have any rule changes next year. That is, no longer employ anybody this season to think up any changes. Don't employ anybody next year to implement the changes. Don't spend any money writing up new rules. And don't spend any money running surveys, to ascertain just how much the new rules are pissing off fans.

[Captain]

SEN lists each clubs biggest draft bust of the 21st century. Ours they say is Patrick Vezpremi.

The biggest draft bust from all 18 AFL teams this century (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/05/13/the-biggest-draft-bust-from-all-18-teams-this-century/)

[Cyril] Rioli, Brad Ebert, Robbie Tarrant, Callan Ward, Harry Taylor, Easton Wood, Cale Hooker, Jack Steven and Taylor Walker were all taken after Veszpremi in that same draft.

Terrible pick at the time and still is.

[707]

One cost saving measure that I would like to see, is not to have any rule changes next year. That is, no longer employ anybody this season to think up any changes. Don't employ anybody next year to implement the changes. Don't spend any money writing up new rules. And don't spend any money running surveys, to ascertain just how much the new rules are pissing off fans.

Did I hear $130 mill p.a. to run and administer the AFL? A lot of people on big money doing non core things. Strip back the administration and non essential stuff (I'm looking at you AFLX) before you cut a single player.

[dejavoodoo44]

Did I hear $130 mill p.a. to run and administer the AFL? A lot of people on big money doing non core things. Strip back the administration and non essential stuff (I'm looking at you AFLX) before you cut a single player.
Yes, and hopefully the planned conquest of the Chinese market will be put on hold.

[Blood Fever]

Did I hear $130 mill p.a. to run and administer the AFL? A lot of people on big money doing non core things. Strip back the administration and non essential stuff (I'm looking at you AFLX) before you cut a single player.

If they have stripped back assistant coaches etc, only fair that AFL HQ is also affected. Executives salary should come down in line with players. Don't follow Cricket Australia where staff pay cut by 80% while executives' pay was cut by 20%. Stone deaf entitlement.

[dejavoodoo44]

I think Taylor Walker was an Adelaide NSW scholarship pick, so he wasn't an option. But picking Vesper instead of Callan "Grand-son-of-the-Gunn" Ward was a very strange and poor decision.
If I remember rightly, there was the perception that Ebert would head back to Port Adelaide, as soon as possible. There was also talk, that Cyril gave the most incoherent interviews in the history of the draft; which led to theories that he'd already reached some sort of agreement with Hawthorn.

[dejavoodoo44]

SEN lists each clubs biggest draft bust of the 21st century. Ours they say is Patrick Vezpremi.

The biggest draft bust from all 18 AFL teams this century (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/05/13/the-biggest-draft-bust-from-all-18-teams-this-century/)

[Cyril] Rioli, Brad Ebert, Robbie Tarrant, Callan Ward, Harry Taylor, Easton Wood, Cale Hooker, Jack Steven and Taylor Walker were all taken after Veszpremi in that same draft.
An odd choice. Any quick look at the data says it's Daniel O'Keefe. Our first pick in 2006, he was taken late in the first round. Due to a variety of injuries, he retired before playing a single AFL game. Whereas Veszpremi played some pretty good games for us, over a couple of seasons, before being traded to the Bulldogs. The player we got in return was Andrejs Everitt: who while inconsistent, played plenty of good games for us. So, the Veszpremi pick was not a total bust.

[rb4x]

DOK or Josh Willoughby pick 16 in 2003 both bigger busts than Vezpremi with no games between them. Ling is yet to prove he can do better as well.

[liz]

An odd choice. Any quick look at the data says it's Daniel O'Keefe. Our first pick in 2006, he was taken late in the first round. Due to a variety of injuries, he retired before playing a single AFL game. Whereas Veszpremi played some pretty good games for us, over a couple of seasons, before being traded to the Bulldogs. The player we got in return was Andrejs Everitt: who while inconsistent, played plenty of good games for us. So, the Veszpremi pick was not a total bust.

Willoughby, DOK, Vez, Johnston - we had quite a range of contenders of first round picks taken in the naughties.

As you say, Vez did play a handful of decent games for us, and Everitt wasn't a complete bust. He might have been an excellent player in the 90s (or earlier), before there became such an emphasis on endurance. But he was never able (or willing) to build up the endurance required to play AFL nowadays (or even a decade ago). Johnston similarly had talent but not the body. DOK was hampered by groin injuries from almost the time he arrived at the club.

Willoughby was maybe the biggest bust of them all - a small, slightly built player who never looked remotely like making it at senior level.

Part of their assessment may be based on who was left on the table after we selected our player. The aura surrounding Rioli makes the Vez pick look bad, despite, as you point out, it being widely acknowledged that Rioli tanked interview with non-Victorian clubs. He also performed appallingly at the draft camp - especially in the endurance tests.

The 2003 draft, where we took Willoughby, looks pretty bare in hindsight. You have to look hard for gems taken after him in that draft but there are some there - David Mundy three picks later is the standout, while Jed Adcock, Sam Fisher, Michael Rischitelli and Ben Hudson are a few of the others from that year who had good to very good AFL careers. (And Amon Buchanan.)

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2003&t=N&s=P

[dejavoodoo44]

DOK or Josh Willoughby pick 16 in 2003 both bigger busts than Vezpremi with no games between them. Ling is yet to prove he can do better as well.

Yes, after typing that, I had a vague recall that there was another first rounder from around that time, who didn't play a game, but I couldn't think of his name. However, I'm fairly confident that Ling will prove his worth, over the next season or two.

[dejavoodoo44]

Willoughby, DOK, Vez, Johnston - we had quite a range of contenders of first round picks taken in the naughties.

As you say, Vez did play a handful of decent games for us, and Everitt wasn't a complete bust. He might have been an excellent player in the 90s (or earlier), before there became such an emphasis on endurance. But he was never able (or willing) to build up the endurance required to play AFL nowadays (or even a decade ago). Johnston similarly had talent but not the body. DOK was hampered by groin injuries from almost the time he arrived at the club.

Willoughby was maybe the biggest bust of them all - a small, slightly built player who never looked remotely like making it at senior level.

Part of their assessment may be based on who was left on the table after we selected our player. The aura surrounding Rioli makes the Vez pick look bad, despite, as you point out, it being widely acknowledged that Rioli tanked interview with non-Victorian clubs. He also performed appallingly at the draft camp - especially in the endurance tests.

The 2003 draft, where we took Willoughby, looks pretty bare in hindsight. You have to look hard for gems taken after him in that draft but there are some there - David Mundy three picks later is the standout, while Jed Adcock, Sam Fisher, Michael Rischitelli and Ben Hudson are a few of the others from that year who had good to very good AFL careers. (And Amon Buchanan.)

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2003&t=N&s=P
Yes, you may be right with Willoughby. I mean, I'd forgotten that he existed.

And I find it slightly odd, but tempting, to judge a pick, on the careers of those who were picked later. It tends to gloss over the fact, that most of the other recruiters also didn't pick that player. And also, while there may be a few standout and obvious choices, at the top of the draft, the differences in potential of most of the other prospects, would be marginal. So, there's a fair amount of randomness, as to who succeeds and who doesn't.

[Blood Fever]

Willoughby, DOK, Vez, Johnston - we had quite a range of contenders of first round picks taken in the naughties.

As you say, Vez did play a handful of decent games for us, and Everitt wasn't a complete bust. He might have been an excellent player in the 90s (or earlier), before there became such an emphasis on endurance. But he was never able (or willing) to build up the endurance required to play AFL nowadays (or even a decade ago). Johnston similarly had talent but not the body. DOK was hampered by groin injuries from almost the time he arrived at the club.

Willoughby was maybe the biggest bust of them all - a small, slightly built player who never looked remotely like making it at senior level.

Part of their assessment may be based on who was left on the table after we selected our player. The aura surrounding Rioli makes the Vez pick look bad, despite, as you point out, it being widely acknowledged that Rioli tanked interview with non-Victorian clubs. He also performed appallingly at the draft camp - especially in the endurance tests.

The 2003 draft, where we took Willoughby, looks pretty bare in hindsight. You have to look hard for gems taken after him in that draft but there are some there - David Mundy three picks later is the standout, while Jed Adcock, Sam Fisher, Michael Rischitelli and Ben Hudson are a few of the others from that year who had good to very good AFL careers. (And Amon Buchanan.)

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2003&t=N&s=P

Everitt played some big games for us - remember him playing well against Essendon at Marvel Stadium and kicking a late winning goal against Geelong? at SCG. Think Mitch Morton took his spot late in 2012 season.

[liz]

Everitt played some big games for us - remember him playing well against Essendon at Marvel Stadium and kicking a late winning goal against Geelong? at SCG. Think Mitch Morton took his spot late in 2012 season.

Yeah, and we didn't delist him. We traded him to Carlton, swapping our third round pick with their second round pick. We used that second round pick on George Hewett. It's impossible to know how drafts would have panned out with different picks, but it's probably unlikely Hewett would still have been there when that third round pick came around. Carlton used that pick on a player who never played a senior game.


Blues get their man (https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/133844/blues-get-their-man)

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2013&t=N&s=P

[Cosmic Wizard]

If your going to the draft who do you propose to draft?

I would pick:
1. Finlay Macrae 184cm, 79kg
2. Luke Edwards 187cm, 78kg
3. Riley Thilthorpe 199cm, 96kg

We don't need any small players as Braeden Campbell is 178cm and he will come to us as Academy.

What we need is midfielders.

- - - Updated - - -


It’s not an either or though, surely? And JD not going to cost us draft picks. He would chew up salary cap though.

Essendon will match out offer just to screw with us.

I am really hoping that they put on the table a huge contract for JD just to force our hand.

We then say no, and they are left with this huge hole in their salary cap.

Could not happen to a nicer group of people!

[707]

Yes, and hopefully the planned conquest of the Chinese market will be put on hold.

Probably banned by the Chinese as retaliation! :-)

[707]

Essendon will match out offer just to screw with us.

I am really hoping that they put on the table a huge contract for JD just to force our hand.

We then say no, and they are left with this huge hole in their salary cap.

Could not happen to a nicer group of egos!There, fixed that for you :-)

[Doctor J.]

The aura surrounding Rioli makes the Vez pick look bad, despite, as you point out, it being widely acknowledged that Rioli tanked interview with non-Victorian clubs. He also performed appallingly at the draft camp - especially in the endurance tests.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2003&t=N&s=P

Imagine the apoplectic meltdown within Vic clubs if a player did this to get to an interstate club. Cyril is lauded as a genius for how he managed to get to his club of choice ( the one that paid for his private school education ) but his actions, and Hawthorns for that matter, are nothing short of draft tampering.

Strange how when draft tampering happens at non Victorian club the AFL is quick to act. Remember Kurt Tippett. $50,000 fine and 6 months suspension. Officials from Adelaide, suspended for up to 12 months, and fines up to $50,000. Adelaide football club, fined $300,000 and banned from the 1st 2 rounds of the 2013 draft.

[dejavoodoo44]

Yeah, and we didn't delist him. We traded him to Carlton, swapping our third round pick with their second round pick. We used that second round pick on George Hewett. It's impossible to know how drafts would have panned out with different picks, but it's probably unlikely Hewett would still have been there when that third round pick came around. Carlton used that pick on a player who never played a senior game.


Blues get their man (https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/133844/blues-get-their-man)

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2013&t=N&s=P
Yes, and just to emphasise the vagaries of the draft; it could be argued that George has had a better career than the number one pick, Tom Boyd. And looking at it further, the stars of that draft were: Kelly (pick 2), Bontempelli (4), Cripps (13) and possibly Ben Brown (47). Possibly the next best were rookie elevations: Jeremy McGovern, Zac Williams and our own Dane Rampe. There's probably another 25 or 30 players, who I would rate as good or very good. Including our other picks of: Jones, Nankervis and Aliir. The rest of the draft I'd rate as, meh.

It's also a bit puzzling to me, that the quality of the draft can vary widely from year to year. For instance: 2001, very good; 2003, not so good. I mean, the players are largely coming through the same systems, with much the same teams, coaches and methods. And there shouldn't be much annual variance in the quality of the overall gene pool, so why the difference? Just a random quirk, I guess.

- - - Updated - - -


Probably banned by the Chinese as retaliation! :-)

They may not have noticed the AFL's cunning plan.

[Markwebbos]

I would pick:
1. Finlay Macrae 184cm, 79kg
2. Luke Edwards 187cm, 78kg
3. Riley Thilthorpe 199cm, 96kg

We don't need any small players as Braeden Campbell is 178cm and he will come to us as Academy.

What we need is midfielders.

- - - Updated - - -



Essendon will match out offer just to screw with us.

I am really hoping that they put on the table a huge contract for JD just to force our hand.

We then say no, and they are left with this huge hole in their salary cap.

Could not happen to a nicer group of people!

That would be great, but all they have to do is match our offer to keep him. It’s more likely to happen the other way round.

As he’s out of contract I hope he does a Jack Martin to them, puts a huge price on his first year and walks to us for nothing. Pardon my French but FYD!

P.s. I completely agree our weakness is the midfield, going to the draft will take years though.

[bloodspirit]

P.s. I completely agree our weakness is the midfield, going to the draft will take years though.

Except that we have gone to the draft and we are getting those years into the kids: Florent, Rowbottom, McInerney, hopefully Stephens, maybe Warner etc. We have made long term midfield investments already and we're currently going through the painful period of waiting for them to bear fruit. In the meantime, we've got players like Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray who can pinch hit there.

I agree it would have been good to trade in some players to strengthen our midfield over the past couple of off seasons, but by now we may as well just stick with the plan we're halfway through executing.

[TheBloods]

Except that we have gone to the draft and we are getting those years into the kids: Florent, Rowbottom, McInerney, hopefully Stephens, maybe Warner etc. We have made long term midfield investments already and we're currently going through the painful period of waiting for them to bear fruit. In the meantime, we've got players like Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray who can pinch hit there.

I agree it would have been good to trade in some players to strengthen our midfield over the past couple of off seasons, but by now we may as well just stick with the plan we're halfway through executing.

Not being negative as we have a promising young midfield group, but I don't see a leader-in-the-pack among those kids I'm afraid. I like the look of all of them, but do any scream multiple All Australians or Brownlow contenders to you?

Drafting a midfielder who can dominate from the middle and break a game open is crucial for us.

[Markwebbos]

If we draft, realistically a couple of years minimum until it bears fruit.

[Odysseus]

Not being negative as we have a promising young midfield group, but I don't see a leader-in-the-pack among those kids I'm afraid. I like the look of all of them, but do any scream multiple All Australians or Brownlow contenders to you?

Drafting a midfielder who can dominate from the middle and break a game open is crucial for us.

A dominating midfielder would be great - no question.

But I feel and think a little differently about the leader-in-the-pack comment. Young people take a while to develop - good on them, people my age have stopped developing! I look at the names that were mentioned and like the trajectory they've been on. I'm particularly interested to see how far Ollie can go. He strikes me as having the confidence required and the competitive dislike of being beaten that could be great assets over the journey to come.

[Blood Fever]

A dominating midfielder would be great - no question.

But I feel and think a little differently about the leader-in-the-pack comment. Young people take a while to develop - good on them, people my age have stopped developing! I look at the names that were mentioned and like the trajectory they've been on. I'm particularly interested to see how far Ollie can go. He strikes me as having the confidence required and the competitive dislike of being beaten that could be great assets over the journey to come.

Fair call O. Given the right environment and I reckon the club has one, young people (players) can advance very quickly. Agree that they take a while to develop but we may be pleasantly surprised.
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