2021 trading, drafting and list management: players and personnel

[TheBloods]

I don’t disagree with much of this or TBs post.

FWIW, I wasn’t wanting to say we had to play like the Dees. Every side plays to its strength and seeks to minimise its weaknesses. For example, I’d say the Dees have better handball skills in tight but our mix has better foot skills. It was more about making a generic point that our midfield rebuild is on track, bar ruck.

One player you both omitted from conversation and analysis was Heeney. My own view is he’s better starting around the ball, preferably off a wing, and then drifting forward. Curious as to how you see him.

The other thing your post gets at is need for another inside grunt player. And by that, the bloke who in serious heat can get the clean handball away. JPK was a genius. Mills is phenomenal. I think Parker has a few good years of that left. I think Rowbottom can do it (though let’s not blow up the thread).

If you’ve got assets around that like some of those mentioned, it’s a sensational group.

Dont see the point in Heeney in the mids , he would be very good im sure but theres not one clear strength that he would bring that the others lack . He could play the break away mid role like Chad and Campbell but why would we bother when we have those 2 already who are quicker ? Hes not fast enough to play their role and not enough of a bull to play the inside role like Mills and Parker , so he 'd wind up probably our 4th or 5th best mid . At least fwd he can offer something different with his marking , hes so dangerous 1v1 and is our best forward without Buddy , 2nd best forward with him . Get better bang for our buck with him inside 50

We dont need another inside grunt player , Mills will do it and Parker for the next few years , even though they are there to be more explosive , Chad and Campbell will also be able to help Mills out and win hard ball on the inside , . If you have too many of the slower grunt types then the whole midfield becomes that way , you have trouble getting it from the contest to the spread

[AB Swannie]

I am going to assume McDonald will be a big part of our best 22 next year. He probably won’t play all games but they will want him playing 70%. Someone needs to be moved from the forward line to accomodate him. We will need a second ruck so it’s not going to be McLean/Amartey. Therefore, for me, the obvious choice is to push Heeney into the middle more. Not permanent but 80%.

2022 Forward Structure
1. Main man - Buddy
2. Fwd/Rck - McLean/Amartey
3. 3rd tall - McDonald
4. Medium - Hayward
5. Small attack focus - Papley
6. Small pressure focus - Wicks
7. Half forward - Gulden/Campbell

Thoughts?

[Ludwig]

We have been poor in centre square clearances for a long time. I would take a break even stat every day of the week with our forward line which is at least the equal of the Demons.

We were ranked 6th in centre clearances this season, btw, just ahead of the Demons.

[barry]

Hey Barry, could you name any "destination clubs"? You cite Richmond who lost players last year and will lose Chol and CCJ this year. By your reckoning they are surely NOT a DC.

Richmond were a destination club. Geelong was to some extent to (althought they favoured older "cheaper" players chasing a flag at the end of their career). I think both will now be rolling off the destination list as their flag window has closed and players who stayed for unders, look for the dollars.
I'd say Hawthorn (under clarkson) were also a destination club. We were back in the 2010 to 2016 period.

We are not a destination club at the moment. Allir want out, Papley wanted out but luckily we turned it around. Now Dawson and Hewett want out. I dont know the details of each, but there is a trend there, and at a fundamental level, we do not have player retention right if our 3rd best player in 2021 wants out.

[Markwebbos]

I am going to assume McDonald will be a big part of our best 22 next year. He probably won’t play all games but they will want him playing 70%. Someone needs to be moved from the forward line to accomodate him. We will need a second ruck so it’s not going to be McLean/Amartey. Therefore, for me, the obvious choice is to push Heeney into the middle more. Not permanent but 80%.

2022 Forward Structure
1. Main man - Buddy
2. Fwd/Rck - McLean/Amartey
3. 3rd tall - McDonald
4. Medium - Hayward
5. Small attack focus - Papley
6. Small pressure focus - Wicks
7. Half forward - Gulden/Campbell

Thoughts?

I think you make a valid point, if we play McDonald and Buddy (assuming neither plays backup ruck) then our structure is going to have to change.

I can see a fitter Heeney spending more time in the midfield next year, but I still think he's extremely hard to match up on as a forward and will play at least 50% there. He turned a number of games this year playing as a fwd.

Papley and Wicks are no brainers as fwds (although Paps did spend time further up the ground too).

Hayward often has a job to do on a defender...

I don't have an answer off the top of my head, although I suspect we'll see more of Gulden in the middle, and Campbell may go back to defence to replace Dawson.

[KSAS]

Trade Radio

"Jordan Dawson is one of the best kicks in the competition. I think Pick 23 is not enough, somewhere in the teens feels about right."

Matthew Lloyd

Dawson is more than just a great kick. Obviously Lloyd hasn't watched our games closely to see he is also a tall agile utility player, who can take a mark & kick goals. Perfect modern prototype who is a point of difference for any team.

If Cerra is worth pick 6 plus, surely Dawson is worth more than a pick in the teens.

[Markwebbos]

Richmond were a destination club. Geelong was to some extent to (althought they favoured older "cheaper" players chasing a flag at the end of their career). I think both will now be rolling off the destination list as their flag window has closed and players who stayed for unders, look for the dollars.
I'd say Hawthorn (under clarkson) were also a destination club. We were back in the 2010 to 2016 period.

We are not a destination club at the moment. Allir want out, Papley wanted out but luckily we turned it around. Now Dawson and Hewett want out. I dont know the details of each, but there is a trend there, and at a fundamental level, we do not have player retention right if our 3rd best player in 2021 wants out.

You didn't answer my question Barry. I think you are oversimplifying things. For example, I don't think Geelong losing a player like Tim Kelly (at the time a better player than JD) stopped them being a "destination club" for Cameron and others.

Just quietly, I don't think Hewett "want(s) out" nor did Hanners, Rohan and a few others.

Did losing Jetta stop us being a "destination club"?

[Markwebbos]

Dawson is more than just a great kick. Obviously Lloyd hasn't watched our games closely to see he is also a tall agile utility player, who can take a mark & kick goals. Perfect modern prototype who is a point of difference for any team.

If Cerra is worth pick 6 plus, surely Dawson is worth more than a pick in the teens.

I sent an email to trade radio (which of course bounced back, the info on their facebook page is completely out of date) asking them to get some list managers to explain how they arrive at these valuations. I'd genuinely love to know why they think Cerra is 6+, Clark "early 20s" and JD only mid teens?

[TheBloods]

I think you make a valid point, if we play McDonald and Buddy (assuming neither plays backup ruck) then our structure is going to have to change.

I can see a fitter Heeney spending more time in the midfield next year, but I still think he's extremely hard to match up on as a forward and will play at least 50% there. He turned a number of games this year playing as a fwd.

Papley and Wicks are no brainers as fwds (although Paps did spend time further up the ground too).

Hayward often has a job to do on a defender...

I don't have an answer off the top of my head, although I suspect we'll see more of Gulden in the middle, and Campbell may go back to defence to replace Dawson.

Heeney played fwd this year with Bud and McDonald/McLean/ Amartey . Fact is we will never want to lose what he can offer inside 50 and if hes only playing 50% midfield or less he will never be our best mid or even close to it , so i repeat whats the point ?

[AB Swannie]

I think you make a valid point, if we play McDonald and Buddy (assuming neither plays backup ruck) then our structure is going to have to change.

I can see a fitter Heeney spending more time in the midfield next year, but I still think he's extremely hard to match up on as a forward and will play at least 50% there. He turned a number of games this year playing as a fwd.

Papley and Wicks are no brainers as fwds (although Paps did spend time further up the ground too).

Hayward often has a job to do on a defender...

I don't have an answer off the top of my head, although I suspect we'll see more of Gulden in the middle, and Campbell may go back to defence to replace Dawson.

Maybe it’s closer to a 60/40 split than the 80/20 I originally suggested. When Buddy or McDonald are on the bench, I can see Heeney pushing forward as that hard matchup.

I’m happy to be corrected but, apart from injuries, Heeney is one of the fittest in our team, regularly finishing 2nd or 3rd behind Robbie Fox in fitness tests like the time trial, beep/yo-yo. He’d be a nightmare matchup starting on a wing or in the centre and then pushing forward with speed, power, and endurance.

I know this discussion doesn’t really fit in the trade and draft thread but I guess it just points to more evidence that we have personnel forward and in the middle and so really need to draft/trade a KPD. I’m chips in on Paddy McC.

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Heeney played fwd this year with Bud and McDonald/McLean/ Amartey . Fact is we will never want to lose what he can offer inside 50 and if hes only playing 50% midfield or less he will never be our best mid or even close to it , so i repeat whats the point ?

The point is to win games.

What does your forward structure look like with all of Buddy, Heeney, McDonald, and McLean/Amartey playing?

[TheBloods]

Maybe it’s closer to a 60/40 split than the 80/20 I originally suggested. When Buddy or McDonald are on the bench, I can see Heeney pushing forward as that hard matchup.

I’m happy to be corrected but, apart from injuries, Heeney is one of the fittest in our team, regularly finishing 2nd or 3rd behind Robbie Fox in fitness tests like the time trial, beep/yo-yo. He’d be a nightmare matchup starting on a wing or in the centre and then pushing forward with speed, power, and endurance.

I know this discussion doesn’t really fit in the trade and draft thread but I guess it just points to more evidence that we have personnel forward and in the middle and so really need to draft/trade a KPD. I’m chips in on Paddy McC.

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The point is to win games.

What does your forward structure look like with all of Buddy, Heeney, McDonald, and McLean/Amartey playing?

They wont all be playing , only 1 out of the 3 young talls will play as long as Bud is still around

[Markwebbos]

They wont all be playing , only 1 out of the 3 young talls will play as long as Bud is still around

What about the ruck? By your logic McDonald won't get a game next year unless he's backup ruck or Buddy is missing.