Alleged incident at hotel on Sunday night

[KSAS]

This is the biggest upheaval since the club moved from South Melbourne to Sydney for those of us to old enough remember. But it's the biggest players scandal i can ever recall.

Broadly speaking, the club has done the right thing with the suspensions they've laid out.

Whether any of those bans are extended will depend on any charges being laid and/or found guilty in court, which now includes alleged drug taking. That will then become an AFL decision if any guilty verdicts arise.

Regardless of the legal outcomes, the club as a whole is now being tested like never before, in how they manage through this in avoiding/reducing internal fractures at every level. It will play hugely in how the club recovers on so many levels. This includes the AFL, being the beacon in the most competitive market in a national competition.

FWIW, i've read some articles who've applauded the club's bans as a watershed moment by putting morals before club onfield fortunes.

My only question is whether the players involved had behaved similarly in the past without being detected?

i have faith the club will make the right steps to navigate through all this as best as possible.

[imuninformedtwo]

Putting aside the alleged criminality the whole episode shows that the "bloods" culture is more of a myth than a reality for the current group.

I dont mean the whole group are tarnished as stupid, irresponsible, etc; but do you think in a team lead by Paul Kelly or Barry Hall or Brett Kirk would have allowed an environment that would tolerate players stepping out of line just before the finals.

In a team environment the biggest driver of attitudes and behaviour is peer pressure. Did the entire team including the coaching staff set the expectation that no-one (let alone 5 members of the team) could get away with a boozy late night at this stage of the season (I make no comment on the criminal allegations obviously no-one approves of that).

Obviously not, Ive always thought Mills wasnt vocal enough to be the Captain the team needed, whilst great leaders are hard to find he doesnt strike me as someone willing to butt heads with a senior colleague when required. He doesnt strike me as having that fear factor great captains have, he doesnt have that little bit of being a bastard that good captains have. Maybe behind the scenes he does, well sometimes you need to send a message publically.

We need a whole new team leadership structure, I rule Gulden out as he is in the same mould as Mills.

Final comment it appears the coach is slowly putting on a fair bit of weight, now its a but hypocrtical for me to say it (given im a big fat so and so) but unless its injury related it to my mind shows a little lack of self-discipline (yes hypocritical of me to say it since I have none but Im not the head coach of a football team) but he should set the example. John and all the other coaches always look fit (for ex-footballers).

Something for Dean to work on as they hopefully revamp their values.

I can hope that the team is forged by the fire they are facing and they come back next year hungrier angrier and determined to blow every team off the park with ruthless tough football. Not cheap garbage but tough uncompromising football. If some or all of the 5 come back they make the same commitment as the rest of the group. No more head rubbing, or childish taunting but tough uncompromising football. For too long the team has lost that bit of dogged mongrel that the real "bloods" players had.

I know we have Kirk as part of the football management team, i would be looking at bringing in a Paul Roos or similar type to really review our culture. This doesnt need to made public, do it behind the scenes. Work out the weak links and remove them (if some of our best players dont get it then good bye!).

The best team wins Premierships not the collection of the best players.

As for those threatening to leave, goodbye dont let the door hit you on the way out!

I do think the questions about culture and what comes next are interesting. Something has clearly gone wrong for this to happen.

I think there's three people with a big job in the next few years.

Pavlich needs to be given permission to break a few things. He's clearly respectful of the club and its modern traditions, but new enough to be frank about what he sees. I hope he's given the licence by the Board to take a fresh look at what sits underneath the mottos and slogans, and not just in the football department. I'm not saying there's a club-wide problem; we clearly do a lot right and it'd be wrong to blame people or players that do the right thing on a daily basis. But he should be able to be candid about where he sees bad habits or cracks in the system.

I'd love to see Grundy given a role in the leadership group. I'm not necessarily in the sack Mills camp at all. He'd be as devastated as anyone. But Brodie seems to have a great philosophy on life, is meticulous in the way he trains and prepares and offers a great example to the younger guys, who he gels with. And if we decide we can reintroduce those five to the club, he'll be critical. He's great mates for example with Chad. And he could play a terrific two-way role in some of the honest conversations that'll need to be had.

The other guy that strikes me as critically important, less for culture reasons, is Chris Keane. My own view is we'll struggle to contend, as this will have fractured the culture among the playing group. So how do we rebuild the list, without access to the Academy (in the way we've had it), and in the face of the Tassie drafts. He's shown he's a left field thinker, from his manipulation of the Blakey/Rowbottom selections when he was an analyst, to eyeing off state league talent like Cootee (yay) or Bice (boo). It'll need all his imagination and talent spotting skills for us to stay relevant.

[rickmat]

I feel so sad for all the kids who turn up every game to see their heroes and support the red and white. What do the parents tell these children? It's incomprehensible for us adults let alone these kids. Importantly the club is bigger than the individual and as long as we have a united Chair and Board as well as management, life will go on next season, just not the version we end on. So much harm done by so few?!!?

[crackedactor 01]

This is the biggest upheaval since the club moved from South Melbourne to Sydney for those of us to old enough remember. But it's the biggest players scandal i can ever recall.

Broadly speaking, the club has done the right thing with the suspensions they've laid out.

Whether any of those bans are extended will depend on any charges being laid and/or found guilty in court, which now includes alleged drug taking. That will then become an AFL decision if any guilty verdicts arise.

Regardless of the legal outcomes, the club as a whole is now being tested like never before, in how they manage through this in avoiding/reducing internal fractures at every level. It will play hugely in how the club recovers on so many levels. This includes the AFL, being the beacon in the most competitive market in a national competition.

FWIW, i've read some articles who've applauded the club's bans as a watershed moment by putting morals before club onfield fortunes.

My only question is whether the players involved had behaved similarly in the past without being detected?

i have faith the club will make the right steps to navigate through all this as best as possible.

I think every club has had moments they are not proud of. As a Swans member I like to said "I am not impressed with board's decision" . It appears they are bowing down to the woke media and the feminists of this world. My first reaction was a substantial fine with the money going to charity,25,000 plus and then the suspension until the facts are presented in a police report , maybe 2-3 weeks maybe 4-5 weeks.and not say rest of the season. Also talk of drugs found. Why were the 5 players concerned not drug tested? It seems the board care nothing about members and only outside sources. If we lose both finals by 20 goals, who does it benefit? I guess the feminist will be happy even though they will not even watch one minute of the game.If the allegations are true then impose severe penalties, if they are made up stories I will be very upset.

[Syd76]

From reading back some of the comments ...I think for all those who live in Syd and have the means to, they should go to the game, and support both teams, the club and staff. Remember the remainder of the players are not involved in this, so they deserve your support until (if at all) there are things that prove otherwise.

Matthew Pavlich is right. The club needs support and in due time all will be fleshed out. They are not brushing things under the carpet all be it aspects of culture need to be addressed.

Looking back on all of this now, I am actually proud of how the board and executive have handled this sordid matter thus far (mindful of the legalities and admittance of any perceived fault may have on the due process). The board have acted swiftly, decisively, and correctly. The club can only discuss the actions of the employees of the club itself. Any punishment thus far has been considered, and appropriate representation was afforded to all parties concerned during the process. The penalties are proportionate and in line with that which is available to the club.

Needless to say, even though the issues are totally different, one can compare the mess that our club finds itself in to say that of Geelong.. Geelong's nothing to see here approach and the long time that it takes Geelong to get to a decision to even assist the AFL re the concussion of Kolodashnij (apologies for getting his name wrong) speaks volumes. Not to mention the officials which are complicit in covering up and then deflecting issues.

At least I can say this is some small silver lining out of this tawdry mess.

[Syd76]

I think every club has had moments they are not proud of. As a Swans member I like to said "I am not impressed with board's decision" . It appears they are bowing down to the woke media and the feminists of this world. My first reaction was a substantial fine with the money going to charity,25,000 plus and then the suspension until the facts are presented in a police report , maybe 2-3 weeks maybe 4-5 weeks.and not say rest of the season. Also talk of drugs found. Why were the 5 players concerned not drug tested? It seems the board care nothing about members and only outside sources. If we lose both finals by 20 goals, who does it benefit? I guess the feminist will be happy even though they will not even watch one minute of the game.If the allegations are true then impose severe penalties, if they are made up stories I will be very upset.

I don't agree with you here crackedactor. The facts of the matter are, the players have put themselves in a position which is unbecoming of the standard which the club upholds. Ignoring the SA allegations here for a second, the players have actually themselves through their late night boozing and God knows what else they got up to summarily dismissed themselves from the remainder of the season. There are undeniable facts at play here (ALL of which are unknown). So your premise is totally unreasonable.

FYI - As the Police are investigating, the club cannot perform a parallel investigation which may unfairly prejudice the whole process. It is a legal minefield.

The potential gravity of the matter lends itself to the serious ramifications that the club has itself imposed on its workers.

BTW 25K to Heeney and co is nothing (ignoring Bice who is probably on less money)

[mcs]

I feel so sad for all the kids who turn up every game to see their heroes and support the red and white. What do the parents tell these children? It's incomprehensible for us adults let alone these kids. Importantly the club is bigger than the individual and as long as we have a united Chair and Board as well as management, life will go on next season, just not the version we end on. So much harm done by so few?!!?

Esepcially given two of the 5 are the biggest hits with kids as well.

[mcs]

I think every club has had moments they are not proud of. As a Swans member I like to said "I am not impressed with board's decision" . It appears they are bowing down to the woke media and the feminists of this world. My first reaction was a substantial fine with the money going to charity,25,000 plus and then the suspension until the facts are presented in a police report , maybe 2-3 weeks maybe 4-5 weeks. and not say rest of the season. Also talk of drugs found. Why were the 5 players concerned not drug tested? It seems the board care nothing about members and only outside sources. If we lose both finals by 20 goals, who does it benefit? I guess the feminist will be happy even though they will not even watch one minute of the game. If the allegations are true then impose severe penalties, if they are made up stories I will be very upset.

The capital it would burn from trying to bring players back this season was clearly seen as vastly higher than the benefit from doing well this season with those players in the team. The Board is required to take into account all elements of the impact on the club of actions, and in this case to find a punishment that fits, and strive to find a balance that protects all interests, both short term and longer term. It is nothing to do with the 'woke media' or 'feminists', and a lot more to do with the overall social licence that the club needs to hold and maintain to be successful over the longer term.

In short, the board determined the short term costs of doing what was expected were far lower than going against that in pursuit of footballing outcomes, given longer term additional longer term reputational damage that would incur.

[Nico]

I know what I am going to say is after the event, however....when i heard there was no curfew I was gobsmacked. I would have thought an organisation such as the Swans would have a standards and procedures document that players were obliged to abide by. It's all very well to say the players are grown men and should have known better, but for a club to seemingly have little or no boundaries and standards of player conduct, responsibilies and accountability on interstate trips beggars belief. I was secretary of a junior football club for 4 years back in the 90's and when I took the job, it was one of the first things I did as we knew boys would be boys and parents needed accountabilty for their behaviour. If the boys were heard to swear in the rooms, a second offence was see you later. If as Wilson said there were rumours of a drinking cuiture at the club then there is a fair chance people at the club knew. If so why wasn't it stamped out. I'm waiting to see if the club takes any accountabiltiy for what I have said. I doubt it.

[Nico]

I would be very surprised if Joel Amartey will even consider the Swans offer again. I expect him to take the bigger offer and scarpa as quick as possible. On Chad Warner; if he was to be traded to WCE then the WA public would welcome him home as a hero. All is forgiven.

The best we can hope for is that these 5 come back next year and give their all to redeem themselves.

[mcs]

I know what I am going to say is after the event, however....when i heard there was no curfew I was gobsmacked. I would have thought an organisation such as the Swans would have a standards and procedures document that players were obliged to abide by. It's all very well to say the players are grown men and should have known better, but for a club to seemingly have little or no boundaries and standards of player conduct, responsibilies and accountability on interstate trips beggars belief. I was secretary of a junior football club for 4 years back in the 90's and when I took the job, it was one of the first things I did as we knew boys would be boys and parents needed accountabilty for their behaviour. If the boys were heard to swear in the rooms, a second offence was see you later. If as Wilson said there were rumours of a drinking cuiture at the club then there is a fair chance people at the club knew. If so why wasn't it stamped out. I'm waiting to see if the club takes any accountabiltiy for what I have said. I doubt it.

The club will need to show it is serious on reforming culture I think by some form of review - I expect it will be done in house, but hopefully we can see someone notable at least with a sensible brain come in and give an honest assessment.

There is an element of expecting players to be adults, but equally there is clearly a role for some guidance/expectations that is not working now. These sorts of things go in cycles invariably in big entities - things go wrong so they get more prescriptive, then they erode gradually over time before then something else goes wrong.

it is clearly at a point where it is clearly too lax, and needs to tighten right back up again, whether the playing group likes it or not.

I would be very surprised if Joel Amartey will even consider the Swans offer again. I expect him to take the bigger offer and scarpa as quick as possible. On Chad Warner; if he was to be traded to WCE then the WA public would welcome him home as a hero. All is forgiven.

The best we can hope for is that these 5 come back next year and give their all to redeem themselves.

Not that fussed if Amartey takes the money being offered. He isn't worth it and we will be in a better place longer term using that money more productively, especially given Curnow is on huge $ up forward already.

[UUaswan]

FYI - As the Police are investigating, the club cannot perform a parallel investigation which may unfairly prejudice the whole process. It is a legal minefield.

Disagree here, your saying they can't perform their own investigation but they can jump to their own conclusion ?

Id say by doing what they did they have actually prejudice the police investigation, imposing an interim suspension then waiting to see if charges were laid would have been the sensible thing to do.

Also dont believe any of this high morality board and club BS, if any other club was in this situation, they rightfully would be under the spotlight at all levels.
Cant pretend there isn't a party culture that is very common at all footy clubs.

This Board reminds me of politicians, shout from the trees about professional conduct and what others are doing wrong and what at we stand for run for cover and deflect as required.

[Syd76]

Disagree here, your saying they can't perform their own investigation but they can jump to their own conclusion ?

Id say by doing what they did they have actually prejudice the police investigation, imposing an interim suspension then waiting to see if charges were laid would have been the sensible thing to do.

Also dont believe any of this high morality board and club BS, if any other club was in this situation, they rightfully would be under the spotlight at all levels.
Cant pretend there isn't a party culture that is very common at all footy clubs.

This Board reminds me of politicians, shout from the trees about professional conduct and what others are doing wrong and what at we stand for run for cover and deflect as required.

You miss the point UUA.

The club has performed its own investigation in relation to the clubs own standards - part of which maybe to conduct oneself so as to not bring the players or ultimately the club into disrepute.. The facts as have become known to the club on Monday morning were acted upon. At the time when this all aired on Monday morning, there was no allegation that drugs were involved. This only really became apparent the next day.

By drug testing for coke or whatever substance is alleged to have been taken, in parallel once a police investigation is underway can been seen to prejudice an investigation and so the judicial process. So to separate the two investigations -

1. The Police Investigation most likely (as has been reported) is in relation to Sexual or Assault (and potentially anything in relation to substances).
2. The clubs sanctions are in relation to their own internal standards - which have been breached. The club has been at pains to say the penalties are not in relation to the SA and to any substances.

Hopefully that is clear.

[Nico]

You miss the point UUA.

The club has performed its own investigation in relation to the clubs own standards - part of which maybe to conduct oneself so as to not bring the players or ultimately the club into disrepute.. The facts as have become known to the club on Monday morning were acted upon. At the time when this all aired on Monday morning, there was no allegation that drugs were involved. This only really became apparent the next day.

By drug testing for coke or whatever substance is alleged to have been taken, in parallel once a police investigation is underway can been seen to prejudice an investigation and so the judicial process. So to separate the two investigations -

1. The Police Investigation most likely (as has been reported) is in relation to Sexual or Assault (and potentially anything in relation to substances).
2. The clubs sanctions are in relation to their own internal standards - which have been breached. The club has been at pains to say the penalties are not in relation to the SA and to any substances.

Hopefully that is clear.

If the players were'nt drug tested the next day then surely the bird has flown on that one.

[Syd76]

It will be interesting to see what the fall out re the retention of the 5 players are. Those that have got contracts (long term ones being Heeney and Blakey) vs those that have a decision to make within the next one or two years (Warner and Jordon). Not sure what Bice contract status is.

Independent of the club taking on position on the 5 players individually, I wonder whether the players mindset will be
a) I am tainted and have lost the trust of the club/playing group/want a "fresh start" and will want to move on.. or
b) whether they would feel a duty to right their wrongs and prove that they want to redeem themselves at the club.

This I think will give you a fair insight into them as characters and the loyalty to the club